I'm going to experiment with moving some amount of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to the sideboard, they have been underperforming for me. I'll prob try out Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit since it has pretty good synergy with Hangarback Walker and seems like it could do a good amount of work. I think it's important to be able to hit WW on the second turn so I'm very iffy about adding in colorless lands. I would consider adding one Westvale Abbey but only if I cut the island package, I'm leaning towards the island though for sideboarding reasons.
Archangel of Tithes is really well positioned right now. It is good versus Archangel Avacyn as it prevents Avacyn from flashing in turn 5 for value. Plus Tithes can block an unflipped Avacyn all day long.
This is a UW Midrange deck designed to take advantage of Always Watching. Always Watching does a lot of work here. It turns your early game value creatures into significant board threats, it has great synergy with Hangarback Walker, Archangel of Tithes, and Dragonlord Ojutai, and it ends board stalemates and lets you go on the offensive.
Archangel of Tithes completely takes over combat and is great against Archangel Avacyn. Archangel can block an unflipped Avacyn all day long and prevents her flashing in for value on turn 5.
While Hangarback Walker is not as amazing these days he still does a ton of work here and is great with vigilance.
I don't see the temples as a land primarily but rather more of a 3 mana instant speed rampant growth that you play from your graveyard with a backup emergency land function. Not sure what the right number is though.
From Under the Floorboards is so sick in a control deck at instant speed and really I think the main reason to play a list like these.
It seems like there might be enough control-friendly madness cards to make something like this work. Grixis might be the best combination for this but I'm worried it might be too clunky with the new mana bases.
With the advent of Under the Floorboards it seems like there might be enough control-friendly madness cards to make something like this work. This list runs 10 potential enablers and 16 payoff cards (which are mostly good/strong on their own). Thoughts?
There's no reason to run less than a full playset of Olivia. If you have an extra one you can discard it to it's own ability. I think the right way to build this is as aggressive as possible. Your strongest Vampire cards are best on offense, you don't ever want to be put on defense. If you're playing midrange all the advantages to going vampire tribal mostly disappear, you are probably better off just ditching vampire tribal.
Wow, you don't even need to come up with a contrived Artifact deck "just because", a blue-based control deck, provided it isn't hurt by Darksteel Citadel giving only colorless mana, can use this as a handy winning condition, an indestructible 5/5 for a paltry 2 mana? Sign me in.
^ This. Plus, now that the legend rule changed, every deck with black will be likely running at least a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. In a U/B control deck a fair number of times your Darksteel Citadels will just be swamps anyways. Plus it makes a great early game wall against aggro.
Firstly, while hidden strings doesn't pump for that turn's damage, it constantly grows your heroic creatures and once it's cyphered you can use it to essentially give two of your creatures vigilance and grow them. For free. Every turn. I don't know if I would ever use gridlock as an enabler, I get that you can EOT your opponent to ping your creatures for cheap, but you only get one ping and the spell is gone. In your deck, that makes more sense, considering you're running more than 2 heroic creatures.
I don't think Hidden Strings is a bad card. My original list ran 4. My problem with hidden strings is more that it's not versatile enough for me and didn't fill a role I felt my list needed. Yours is more aggressive so it can take better advantage of Hidden Strings tapping down your opponents creatures. Precinct Captain is also a card that really values being able to connect. My list on the other hand often chooses to play a midrange aggro-control role and therefore the effect becomes slightly less useful. I could see adding back in 1-2 of them as they still a very good card.
Because of the difference in our lists I also think we have slightly different opinions on the relative value of the heroic creatures, I've never felt I was running weaker heroic creatures. I've found in my list that each of them has different matchups where they are strongest. Versus control Phalanx Leader becomes really weak while Battlewise Hoplite becomes mvp. I also haven't really found having too many targets for heroic to be an issue, if I'm in that situation I'm usually winning. On the other hand I've found that knowing I'll always have a good target for my spells is great and lets me really max out their value. For example, with 16 creatures that bring their own +1/+1 counters, Ordeals become much stronger.
Nice list by the way MrCowFart, I played it yesterday with a different sideboard, I don't have the Ajanis. Triton tactics has proved to be an amazing counter for Anger of the Gods. Unfortunately and surprisingly I lost to a RDW in the semifinal, I didn't had the protection in the right time and he always killed my creatures in response to heroic on the early turns.
I think that Fiendslayer Paladin would be a good add in the sideboard.
Thanks! I definitely need to fine tune my sideboard plan versus red. I haven't had the opportunity to test it as thoroughly as I would like. I would try playing around their removal spells by always keeping mana open to respond to their removal spell and using triton tactics and gods willing more defensively. The key to playing this list is learning to play around EVERYTHING. Especially vs red, your creatures will quickly get outside the range of their removal.
Absolutely don't play Ordeal of Heliod or Gift of Orzhova unless you are sure you can respond to removal coming your way. If you can land one of them the game will usually quickly turn in your favor.
I tested Hidden Strings extensively in my UW heroic list and i didn't like it. Because it's sorcery speed it usually ends up tapping down two opponents creatures and then swing in pumping creatures after damage. The problem is that this effect is only good on offense. If you are on the defensive it's mediocre. Unless you're using cards like Nivmagus Elemental that get extra mileage out of free spells I would prob cut them down to 2-3 max.
In my own list I ended up taking them out and putting in 1-2 gridlock. Instant speed is huge. I liked it's ability to tap down your opponents attackers while pumping up your creatures or to tap down potential blockers while still pumping your team before damage.
All-In Green
All-In Green is back and a fairly strong metagame contender, positioned somewhere between g/w and mono red. It's almost as fast as mono red, trading the reach of burn for a more consistant creature base and a better midrange matchup. While you lose some of the raw card-power of a G/W build you have a better manabase, are faster, and gain the ability to play Burning-Tree Emissary, Reverent Hunter and Mutavault.
The easiest cards to tweak in the main are 1-2 Scavenging Ooze, Brushstrider an Elvish Mystic, a Warriors' Lesson, and a Bow of Nylea. That gives you potentially 6 slots to play around with plus the sideboard. Changing much past that would have a large effect on the deck's play.
I'm going to experiment with moving some amount of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to the sideboard, they have been underperforming for me. I'll prob try out Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit since it has pretty good synergy with Hangarback Walker and seems like it could do a good amount of work. I think it's important to be able to hit WW on the second turn so I'm very iffy about adding in colorless lands. I would consider adding one Westvale Abbey but only if I cut the island package, I'm leaning towards the island though for sideboarding reasons.
I created a thread for the deck you mentioned at:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/684601-the-watchmen-uw-midrange
Archangel of Tithes completely takes over combat and is great against Archangel Avacyn. Archangel can block an unflipped Avacyn all day long and prevents her flashing in for value on turn 5.
While Hangarback Walker is not as amazing these days he still does a ton of work here and is great with vigilance.
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Knight of the White Orchard
4 Reflector Mage
4 Archangel of Tithes
3 Archangel Avacyn
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Always Watching
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Lands
13 Plains
1 Island
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Silkwrap
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Essence Flux
2 Ongoing Investigation
2 Profaner of the Dead
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Secure The Wastes
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Bloodmad Vampire
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Senseless Rage
4 Fiery Temper
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Lands
19 Mountain
4 Looming Spires
4 Hangerback Walker/
4 Avacyn's Judgment
3 Skin Invasion
2 Avaricious Dragon
2 Stensia Masquerade
Ravenous Bloodseeker + Senseless Rage or turn 3 Incorrigible Youths makes for some easy turn 4 goldfishes.
From Under the Floorboards is so sick in a control deck at instant speed and really I think the main reason to play a list like these.
RB
2 Elusive Tormentor
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
4 Fiery Temper
3 Ruinous Path
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Languish
4 From under the Floorboards
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
8 Swamps
6 Mountain
UB
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Elusive Tormentor
2 Duress
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Clash of Wills
2 Just the Wind
2 Ultimate Price
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Broken Concentration
1 Ruinous Path
2 Welcome to the Fold
2 Languish
4 From under the Floorboards
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamps
7 Island
Also Bound by Moonsilver is worth considering.
2 Elusive Tormentor
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
4 Fiery Temper
3 Ruinous Path
3 Languish
4 From under the Floorboards
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
8 Swamps
6 Mountain
my thoughts:
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Indulgent Aristocrat
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Olivia's Bloodsworn
2 Ravenous Bloodseeker
1 Carrier Thrall
4 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Incorrigible Youths
4 Fiery Temper
1 Lightning Axe
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Sinister Concoction
Lands
7x Mountain
11x Swamp
4x Smoldering Marsh
^ This. Plus, now that the legend rule changed, every deck with black will be likely running at least a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. In a U/B control deck a fair number of times your Darksteel Citadels will just be swamps anyways. Plus it makes a great early game wall against aggro.
I don't think Hidden Strings is a bad card. My original list ran 4. My problem with hidden strings is more that it's not versatile enough for me and didn't fill a role I felt my list needed. Yours is more aggressive so it can take better advantage of Hidden Strings tapping down your opponents creatures. Precinct Captain is also a card that really values being able to connect. My list on the other hand often chooses to play a midrange aggro-control role and therefore the effect becomes slightly less useful. I could see adding back in 1-2 of them as they still a very good card.
Because of the difference in our lists I also think we have slightly different opinions on the relative value of the heroic creatures, I've never felt I was running weaker heroic creatures. I've found in my list that each of them has different matchups where they are strongest. Versus control Phalanx Leader becomes really weak while Battlewise Hoplite becomes mvp. I also haven't really found having too many targets for heroic to be an issue, if I'm in that situation I'm usually winning. On the other hand I've found that knowing I'll always have a good target for my spells is great and lets me really max out their value. For example, with 16 creatures that bring their own +1/+1 counters, Ordeals become much stronger.
Thanks! I definitely need to fine tune my sideboard plan versus red. I haven't had the opportunity to test it as thoroughly as I would like. I would try playing around their removal spells by always keeping mana open to respond to their removal spell and using triton tactics and gods willing more defensively. The key to playing this list is learning to play around EVERYTHING. Especially vs red, your creatures will quickly get outside the range of their removal.
My current sideboard plan vs RDW is
Out:
In:
Absolutely don't play Ordeal of Heliod or Gift of Orzhova unless you are sure you can respond to removal coming your way. If you can land one of them the game will usually quickly turn in your favor.
In my own list I ended up taking them out and putting in 1-2 gridlock. Instant speed is huge. I liked it's ability to tap down your opponents attackers while pumping up your creatures or to tap down potential blockers while still pumping your team before damage.
My list for reference:
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Phalanx Leader
4 Battlewise Hoplite
3 Artisan of Forms
4 Fabled Hero
Enablers
4 Swift Justice
4 Gods Willing
4 Triton Tactics
4 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Gridlock
10 Plains
5 Island
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Mizzium Skin
2 Gift of Orzhova
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
All-In Green is back and a fairly strong metagame contender, positioned somewhere between g/w and mono red. It's almost as fast as mono red, trading the reach of burn for a more consistant creature base and a better midrange matchup. While you lose some of the raw card-power of a G/W build you have a better manabase, are faster, and gain the ability to play Burning-Tree Emissary, Reverent Hunter and Mutavault.
20 Forest
3 Mutavault
Creatures
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Kalonian Tusker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Brushstrider
4 Reverent Hunter
4 Boon Satyr
3 Warriors' Lesson
3 Bow of Nylea
4 Hunt the Hunter
3 Ranger's Guile
3 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nylea's Disciple
1 Haunted Plate Mail
1 Mutavault
The easiest cards to tweak in the main are 1-2 Scavenging Ooze, Brushstrider an Elvish Mystic, a Warriors' Lesson, and a Bow of Nylea. That gives you potentially 6 slots to play around with plus the sideboard. Changing much past that would have a large effect on the deck's play.
Sideboarding Guide
Red Aggro
Out
In
UW Control
Out
In
GW Aggro
Out
In
4 Hunt the Hunter
GR Aggro
Out
In
BR Midrange
Out
In