If anyone has any opinions on this list I'd be happy to hear them. I could see dropping something for a few Tireless Trackers but I only have 2 and I'm not sure they're good enough in this sort of deck.
20 lands and 4 5 drops is going to get you in a pickle more often than not. Attune is a great card but it doesn't really count for an entire land as you need to invest a G mana. Sometimes you just don't have that kind of time or appropriate green source.
I was unable to get a full playset of Verdurous Gearhulk so I'm going to try Nissa, Vital Force in that slot. I would consider playing 4 Harnessed Lightning but it turns out I only have 3. I like removal that can also go face, hence the 3 Incendiary Flow. Rush of Adrenaline is there to push damage through if I'm facing blockers and gets the nod over Built to Smash by virtue of being able to be used defensively and since I play no artefacts the extra clause from Smash is useless.
The sideboard cards are mostly self-explanatory for anyone who's been reading the discussion in this thread. Many decks will have relevant targets for artifact hate, fevered Visions is there for the control matchup, the counterspells are good general-purpose answers and Galvanic Bombardment comes in against aggro decks that go wide, to deal with blockers.
I considered playing the Electrostatic Pummeler version but I think that this slightly-more-midrange version is better suited to my local meta. With all the artifacts that people are playing I think people will be too well prepared for Pummeler.
If anyone has any opinions on this list I'd be happy to hear them. I could see dropping something for a few Tireless Trackers but I only have 2 and I'm not sure they're good enough in this sort of deck.
so has anyone tested Grafdiggers cagein the sb for chord/coco decks and dredge? so far the card did absolutley nothing for me. Either i drew it too late/or not at all or they had an answer right away
For that reason I've switched to Rest in Peace over Grafdiggers. Unless it's countered, it at least has an immediate and lasting effect. Dredge will need to start over completely and I don't see Chord/CoCo decks as a big problem. As long as you can keep them off of their infinite combos you should be faster to kill them.
Slip through Space is still legal, might it be worth looking into a version of the deck that goes a little heavier in the 'combo' direction?
In such a list I would cut some of the creatures in favour of more pump and protection spells, which might require adding a third colour and/or cutting back on the 'energy' theme a bit...
FWIW, I had a clear win if I attacked with my two creatures on g2 of finals but miscounted my opponent's resources and chose not to swing thinking he could crew copter with Hissing Quagmire and block with Gearhulk while he was at 2 life, but he was a land short. I was heavily distracted, in my defense, due to my opponent literally ignoring the game to play with and hold his baby while his wife was standing around... I was pretty tilted that the judge was allowing this to happen while there was absolutely no need since his wife just showed up with the baby. I plan on reporting this occurrence to the DCI and SCG.
It's interesting to see how different your approach to the game is from my own. I would be quite happy if my opponent was distracting himself from the game. If he's taking too long in his turn you can simply ask "can I ask you to make a play?" but mostly I would take the time he's distracted to sharpen my own game plan. Sure, it's rude that he's not focussing on the game, but tilt is the #1 enemy of playing good magic. You want to be calm and collected, considering all your options and identifying the best line of play in every single instance.
In my opinion, Naya Burn is a strong deck that has game against almost anything. The only hate cards that really stop it are double Chalice of the Void (one on 1cmc and one on 2cmc) and Leyline of Sanctity and even when decks play those cards you still have a chance to win. The only matchups that feel impossible to me are Ad Nauseam and Soul Sisters, since their mainboard game plan directly counters Burn's, but even against those decks you can still pick up some wins.
Burn hasn't always been in favour but I think it's a very stable deck that may not always be the best choice but it's almost never a terrible choice.
I think Chandra might be a trap and don't recommend her.
With all the ramp you currently have anyways i would try out the Chandra from oath, she has been a huge staple in a ton of decks and seems strong in the current meta.
Ulvenwald captive also seems like a bad fit, the deck wants to be aggressive and it is a rather bad topdeck.
Lathnu Hellion is a good card but it doesn't fit in well with cards like the new chandra and ulvenwald captive.
What i would personally add is tireless tracker, it is just a solid card and she will give you the grinding power you likely need against some decks. Maybe it is only a sideboard card though.
Verdurous gearhulk is absurd and probably too good not to play it, but i will try to test Ulrich in that slot too.
He has a similar effect in the turn you play him and if you can consitently flip him then he will be at least as good as the gearhulk.
With how the meta currently is i expect it will be easy for us to flip him.
Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter is also on my radar.
with all those aggro decks the body is not useless and once our ramp kicks in the abilities are actually insane.
With all that being said i still feel like the biggest weakness of your list is smuggler's copter.
You have no way of blocking or killing it, which will be a huge problem in tons of matchups.
Sadly there are almost no options available aside from sideboard cards.
The idea behind the Captive is to have a ramp creature that isn't dead in the late game because you can invest mana into it to make it relevantly sized. It seemed better to me than the other mana-producing creature options but I may be overlooking something.
As you say, my plan to deal with the Smuggler's Copter is to play sideboard hate for it.
Tireless Tracker may be better than Lathnu Hellion for this list as you say. My thought process was that in a deck that ramps through mana creatures rather than playing extra lands, the Tracker won't grow as quickly since we're making a lot fewer clues. The Hellion also lets me keep the midrange-aggro feel that I'm aiming for, but that could very well be nonsense.
That's actually literally the argument against Clifftop Retreat and its ilk, any other single land in that hand and you could most likely keep it, unless you're holding the 1 land with only 2-CMC cards. I've tried the card myself and now agree that while it's viable, it *is* making your deck worse than it would be if you played a shock or fetch in its stead. Now that I have 12 fetches and a playset of Searing Blaze in my build, I am experiencing much more consistency and I'm winning more of my matches.
Clifftop Retreat is a workable budget option, but for Burn's purposes, I feel that Inspiring Vantage and Copperline Gorge are better suited.
You are misunderstanding my point. My point is that I am not keeping a 1-land hand in almost any situation (at least with 7 cards, a 6 card hand with a scry and on the draw is very different) so if we then know my hand has 2+ lands in it, the Clifftop Retreat acts like a Plateau as every other land in the deck will turn it on.
I understand your point exactly: you don't keep 1 land hands anyway so playing a land that makes 1 hand lands unkeepable isn't a problem for you. That's why I am explaining why your point is not a valid one. Most if not all experienced Burn players I've found consider 1 land hands to be keepable as long as you have a reasonable number of 1 CMC spells in that hand (and yes, that's with a 7 card hand). If you're arbitrarily deciding to never keep a 1 land hand anyways, you're skewing the results. An extreme example would be a discussion on how good a card is on the play vs on the draw, with one of the parties in the discussion stating "it doesn't matter to me that the card is good on the play, I always give my opponent the play so I'm always on the draw". You're not playing your deck to its full potential because of an arbitrary self-imposed restriction and it's making you misevaluate the card.
I know where you're coming from, when I first took up the deck and didn't have all the fetches yet I felt exactly the same way, that 1 land hands were unkeepable most of the time. I've done the research and the testing and spoken to people with far more experience with the deck than I have and they convinced me that 1 hand lands were fine to keep, with exceptions. Playing Clifftop Retreat increases the number of hands that you *have* to mulligan because you cannot win with them. Mulliganing into a card fewer has a strong impact on a deck that's built around counting to 20 as soon as possible: you'll need an extra card which means you'll probably need at least an extra draw, which in turn means that you're going to be at least one turn slower than you could have been. This gives your opponent more time to stabilise or execute their game plan so it *will* make you lose more games.
It's a little more 'ramp' than 'aggro' I guess, but I like the curve here and the energy cards help your versatility. I feel that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is too good not to play since does things we want: ramp, removal and reach. I considered Nissa, Vital Force but she seems more suited to sideboard in vs control. 22 land feels right when almost half of our deck can be cast off of 3 mana, considering the ramp and the Attune with Aethers and Chandra, but might be too greedy or too much.
There have been a lot of games lately where I needed to cast a 2-drop and hold up a 2-mana anti-lifegain card, so I doubt I'll be moving Inspiring Vantage or Copperline Gorge in and taking out Clifftop Retreat any time soon.
I get that it can make hands awkward, but if I have a 1-land hand with Clifftop Retreat, i'm probably mulliganing no matter which land it is.
That's actually literally the argument against Clifftop Retreat and its ilk, any other single land in that hand and you could most likely keep it, unless you're holding the 1 land with only 2-CMC cards. I've tried the card myself and now agree that while it's viable, it *is* making your deck worse than it would be if you played a shock or fetch in its stead. Now that I have 12 fetches and a playset of Searing Blaze in my build, I am experiencing much more consistency and I'm winning more of my matches.
Clifftop Retreat is a workable budget option, but for Burn's purposes, I feel that Inspiring Vantage and Copperline Gorge are better suited.
The reason for Exquisite Firecraft is simply that at some point you're starting to run out of good low-CMC burn spells in red, so playing a good high-CMC burn spell becomes the next best thing.
Bedlam Reveler lets you refuel after you've emptied your hand, which is invaluable in a deck that's missing the Boros Charms and Atarka's Commands. These cards are both 2 mana for 4 (or more) damage, for which there is no replacement in mono-red. This means you'll need more burn spells to finish the job, so when your hand is otherwise empty paying 3-4 mana for 3 more cards would already be a good trade and with Reveler you even get a very relevant body with a very relevant ability on the board. With this logic I would agree that it's better than Keldon Marauders in a mono-red burn deck.
I generally wouldn't play more than a single Shard Volley because I only want to cast it as the potential game-ender. Saccing a land is too high a cost for me in a deck that wants to be running off of 3-4 lands max. I'd personally run 1 Shard Volley and 3 Exquisite Firecraft.
As for artifact destruction against infect, don't. In Naya I usually side in my Helixes since those can also hit creatures. The big thing to remember is that when playing against infect, you want to be playing more like a control deck, holding up instant-speed burn at any time so you can shoot down their creatures.
Why Exquisite Firecraft? I know it is amazing in legacy burn, but it seems slow and modern is light on counterspells right now. Could be totally wrong, but that is just my first impression. I'm playing mono-red for mostly budget reasons.
Do you really think Bedlam Reveler is better than Marauders? I've seen a lot of people testing Reveler without much success.
Also, a Naya Burn player at my LGS was telling me Leyline wasn't great, and convinced me to cut it from my board. What is your opinion on it?
The reason for Exquisite Firecraft is simply that at some point you're starting to run out of good low-CMC burn spells in red, so playing a good high-CMC burn spell becomes the next best thing.
Bedlam Reveler lets you refuel after you've emptied your hand, which is invaluable in a deck that's missing the Boros Charms and Atarka's Commands. These cards are both 2 mana for 4 (or more) damage, for which there is no replacement in mono-red. This means you'll need more burn spells to finish the job, so when your hand is otherwise empty paying 3-4 mana for 3 more cards would already be a good trade and with Reveler you even get a very relevant body with a very relevant ability on the board. With this logic I would agree that it's better than Keldon Marauders in a mono-red burn deck.
I think that in a Burn deck, if you're not casting spells then you're already dying.
I think that with a Thermo-Alchemist and a Dynavolt Tower on the board, every spell you cast gets that much more value. In a deck that's trying to count to 20, one card that gives more power to your other cards is a big help. Dynavolt Tower strongly reminds me of Shrine of Burning Rage and that was a real player in standard. This one even has the synergetic potential with Lathnu Hellion by helping it stay alive for longer.
By the same reasoning, I feel that playing a Burn deck without Thermo-Alchemist is the wrong answer. There's not enough lightning bolts/lightning strikes/shocks in the format that we can afford not playing a card that adds 1 damage to every instant and sorcery we cast. Mono-red doesn't seem to be enough so I'm personally going to go into the direction of an 'Izzet Machinegun' style deck.
For MNM tonight, I'll be running Naya Burn (no Wild Nacatls) for the first time after upgrading my deck the past month. I am trying to figure out my mana base. I have 8 fetches, 4 Sacred Foundrys, 2 Stomping Grounds, and 2 Copperline Gorges. I'll be using the following list:
I'm removing the Kor Firewalkers as no one else plays burn at my LGS and putting in more lifegain hate because it tends to be more prevalent that I would like. Knowing all this information, how you would you construct the mana base. Also, I could always side out a Grim Lavamancer if you think I should go 20 lands. I can also drop the amount of Searing Blazes as well because I'm only running 8 fetches. If need be, I can always purchase 2 Windswept Heaths if 11 fetches is the way to go.
I've said it several times on here and others have shared the same sentiment: Windswept Heath is passable when you don't have access to Mesa/Tarn. Is it optimal? No. Will it occasionally cost you? Yes. I believe that 8 Red + 3 Heath is preferable to adding more shocks or adding things like Clifftop or fast lands. Color fixing is important and Heath certainly provides that.
I ran 8 Red + 3 Heath for the better part of a year before I used store credit from winning to buy Mesas, and I encourage you to do the same if your store allows you to put winnings into credit (also I think Mesa has a high chance of getting reprinted in Amonkhet). I recall one specific occasion when I needed 4-5 mana to cast everything in my hand to beat Merfolk, I was at 3 life, and I topdecked Heath to get me to enough mana to cast it all. Sometimes you'll have to grab a shock when you'd prefer a basic. It won't happen incredibly often, and you'll usually be doing it because you want a shock anyway.
I play 19 lands and enjoy it. If you can get to 11 fetches, do it. You should definitely keep Blaze around if you see a lot of creatures because that card is fantastic, even if you are on 8 fetches.
I mostly agree with this. I played 3 Searing Blaze when I only had 8 (red) fetches in the deck and it was simply too hard to trigger the landfall at the exact time where I needed to. I feel 10 is the required amount of fetches for 3 Searing Blaze and 12 is the required amount for the full compliment of 4, but if you can get up to 11 fetches that's probably good enough.
I personally like Grim Lavamancer as a singleton in the main deck but I don't like it in multiples, especially since the two local meta's I play in have a fair amount of Scavenging Oozes and general graveyard hate. In any case, the second Lavamancer is what I would cut in order to make room for the 4th Searing Blaze. The rest of your list looks good enough for a lifegain-heavy meta, although I would personally drop the Flames of the Bloodhand in favour of either Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace for a larger tournament because graveyard decks are a real threat and most of the 'lifegain heavy' decks I see that are beatable gain their life through going infinite with Kitchen Finks, so I'd rather stop both the Finks combo and the Murderous Redcap combo with the same card. Soul Sisters feels to me like it's such a bad matchup that it's not worth spending extra sideboard slots on and don't get me started on Ad Nauseam. If there's a relevant deck I'm forgetting, please feel free to mention it.
Might be worth going Naya so you can also play Nahiri as a second way to cheat your fatties into play? She also seems like a decent hit off of Aetherworks Marvel
What would you suggest? I could drop a Nissa, Vital Force or perhaps a Lathnu Hellion or two, for two GForest I suppose?
4x Servant of the Conduit
2x Longtusk Cub
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Lathnu Hellion
4x Bristling Hydra
2x Verdurous Gearhulk
Spells (18)
4x Attune to Aether
3x Harnessed Lightning
3x Incendiary Flow
4x Rush of Adrenaline
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Nissa, Vital Force
Manabase (20)
5x Forest
4x Mountain
4x Aether Hub
3x Cinder Glade
3x Game Trail
1x Botanical Sanctum
2x Natural State
2x Appetite for the Unnatural
3x Fevered Visions
2x Negate
1x Ceremonious Rejection
4x Galvanic Bombardment
1x Island
I was unable to get a full playset of Verdurous Gearhulk so I'm going to try Nissa, Vital Force in that slot. I would consider playing 4 Harnessed Lightning but it turns out I only have 3. I like removal that can also go face, hence the 3 Incendiary Flow.
Rush of Adrenaline is there to push damage through if I'm facing blockers and gets the nod over Built to Smash by virtue of being able to be used defensively and since I play no artefacts the extra clause from Smash is useless.
The sideboard cards are mostly self-explanatory for anyone who's been reading the discussion in this thread. Many decks will have relevant targets for artifact hate, fevered Visions is there for the control matchup, the counterspells are good general-purpose answers and Galvanic Bombardment comes in against aggro decks that go wide, to deal with blockers.
I considered playing the Electrostatic Pummeler version but I think that this slightly-more-midrange version is better suited to my local meta. With all the artifacts that people are playing I think people will be too well prepared for Pummeler.
If anyone has any opinions on this list I'd be happy to hear them. I could see dropping something for a few Tireless Trackers but I only have 2 and I'm not sure they're good enough in this sort of deck.
For that reason I've switched to Rest in Peace over Grafdiggers. Unless it's countered, it at least has an immediate and lasting effect. Dredge will need to start over completely and I don't see Chord/CoCo decks as a big problem. As long as you can keep them off of their infinite combos you should be faster to kill them.
In such a list I would cut some of the creatures in favour of more pump and protection spells, which might require adding a third colour and/or cutting back on the 'energy' theme a bit...
It's interesting to see how different your approach to the game is from my own. I would be quite happy if my opponent was distracting himself from the game. If he's taking too long in his turn you can simply ask "can I ask you to make a play?" but mostly I would take the time he's distracted to sharpen my own game plan. Sure, it's rude that he's not focussing on the game, but tilt is the #1 enemy of playing good magic. You want to be calm and collected, considering all your options and identifying the best line of play in every single instance.
Burn hasn't always been in favour but I think it's a very stable deck that may not always be the best choice but it's almost never a terrible choice.
The idea behind the Captive is to have a ramp creature that isn't dead in the late game because you can invest mana into it to make it relevantly sized. It seemed better to me than the other mana-producing creature options but I may be overlooking something.
As you say, my plan to deal with the Smuggler's Copter is to play sideboard hate for it.
Tireless Tracker may be better than Lathnu Hellion for this list as you say. My thought process was that in a deck that ramps through mana creatures rather than playing extra lands, the Tracker won't grow as quickly since we're making a lot fewer clues. The Hellion also lets me keep the midrange-aggro feel that I'm aiming for, but that could very well be nonsense.
I understand your point exactly: you don't keep 1 land hands anyway so playing a land that makes 1 hand lands unkeepable isn't a problem for you. That's why I am explaining why your point is not a valid one. Most if not all experienced Burn players I've found consider 1 land hands to be keepable as long as you have a reasonable number of 1 CMC spells in that hand (and yes, that's with a 7 card hand). If you're arbitrarily deciding to never keep a 1 land hand anyways, you're skewing the results. An extreme example would be a discussion on how good a card is on the play vs on the draw, with one of the parties in the discussion stating "it doesn't matter to me that the card is good on the play, I always give my opponent the play so I'm always on the draw". You're not playing your deck to its full potential because of an arbitrary self-imposed restriction and it's making you misevaluate the card.
I know where you're coming from, when I first took up the deck and didn't have all the fetches yet I felt exactly the same way, that 1 land hands were unkeepable most of the time. I've done the research and the testing and spoken to people with far more experience with the deck than I have and they convinced me that 1 hand lands were fine to keep, with exceptions. Playing Clifftop Retreat increases the number of hands that you *have* to mulligan because you cannot win with them. Mulliganing into a card fewer has a strong impact on a deck that's built around counting to 20 as soon as possible: you'll need an extra card which means you'll probably need at least an extra draw, which in turn means that you're going to be at least one turn slower than you could have been. This gives your opponent more time to stabilise or execute their game plan so it *will* make you lose more games.
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Servant of the Conduit
2x Ulvenwald Captive
4x Lathnu Hellion
4x Bristling Hydra
4x Verdurous Gearhulk
3x Blossoming Defense
4x Attune with Aether
4x Harnessed Lightning
3x Collective Defiance
Planeswalkers(2):
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Aether Hub
4x Game Trail
4x Cinder Glade
7x Forest
3x Mountain
It's a little more 'ramp' than 'aggro' I guess, but I like the curve here and the energy cards help your versatility. I feel that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is too good not to play since does things we want: ramp, removal and reach. I considered Nissa, Vital Force but she seems more suited to sideboard in vs control. 22 land feels right when almost half of our deck can be cast off of 3 mana, considering the ramp and the Attune with Aethers and Chandra, but might be too greedy or too much.
That's actually literally the argument against Clifftop Retreat and its ilk, any other single land in that hand and you could most likely keep it, unless you're holding the 1 land with only 2-CMC cards. I've tried the card myself and now agree that while it's viable, it *is* making your deck worse than it would be if you played a shock or fetch in its stead. Now that I have 12 fetches and a playset of Searing Blaze in my build, I am experiencing much more consistency and I'm winning more of my matches.
Clifftop Retreat is a workable budget option, but for Burn's purposes, I feel that Inspiring Vantage and Copperline Gorge are better suited.
I generally wouldn't play more than a single Shard Volley because I only want to cast it as the potential game-ender. Saccing a land is too high a cost for me in a deck that wants to be running off of 3-4 lands max. I'd personally run 1 Shard Volley and 3 Exquisite Firecraft.
As for artifact destruction against infect, don't. In Naya I usually side in my Helixes since those can also hit creatures. The big thing to remember is that when playing against infect, you want to be playing more like a control deck, holding up instant-speed burn at any time so you can shoot down their creatures.
The reason for Exquisite Firecraft is simply that at some point you're starting to run out of good low-CMC burn spells in red, so playing a good high-CMC burn spell becomes the next best thing.
Bedlam Reveler lets you refuel after you've emptied your hand, which is invaluable in a deck that's missing the Boros Charms and Atarka's Commands. These cards are both 2 mana for 4 (or more) damage, for which there is no replacement in mono-red. This means you'll need more burn spells to finish the job, so when your hand is otherwise empty paying 3-4 mana for 3 more cards would already be a good trade and with Reveler you even get a very relevant body with a very relevant ability on the board. With this logic I would agree that it's better than Keldon Marauders in a mono-red burn deck.
I think that with a Thermo-Alchemist and a Dynavolt Tower on the board, every spell you cast gets that much more value. In a deck that's trying to count to 20, one card that gives more power to your other cards is a big help. Dynavolt Tower strongly reminds me of Shrine of Burning Rage and that was a real player in standard. This one even has the synergetic potential with Lathnu Hellion by helping it stay alive for longer.
By the same reasoning, I feel that playing a Burn deck without Thermo-Alchemist is the wrong answer. There's not enough lightning bolts/lightning strikes/shocks in the format that we can afford not playing a card that adds 1 damage to every instant and sorcery we cast. Mono-red doesn't seem to be enough so I'm personally going to go into the direction of an 'Izzet Machinegun' style deck.
I mostly agree with this. I played 3 Searing Blaze when I only had 8 (red) fetches in the deck and it was simply too hard to trigger the landfall at the exact time where I needed to. I feel 10 is the required amount of fetches for 3 Searing Blaze and 12 is the required amount for the full compliment of 4, but if you can get up to 11 fetches that's probably good enough.
As such, my proposed manabase is:
I personally like Grim Lavamancer as a singleton in the main deck but I don't like it in multiples, especially since the two local meta's I play in have a fair amount of Scavenging Oozes and general graveyard hate. In any case, the second Lavamancer is what I would cut in order to make room for the 4th Searing Blaze. The rest of your list looks good enough for a lifegain-heavy meta, although I would personally drop the Flames of the Bloodhand in favour of either Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace for a larger tournament because graveyard decks are a real threat and most of the 'lifegain heavy' decks I see that are beatable gain their life through going infinite with Kitchen Finks, so I'd rather stop both the Finks combo and the Murderous Redcap combo with the same card. Soul Sisters feels to me like it's such a bad matchup that it's not worth spending extra sideboard slots on and don't get me started on Ad Nauseam. If there's a relevant deck I'm forgetting, please feel free to mention it.