I played about 15-20 games last night with geneyquakes' list last night and had pretty good success against a variety of builds. Some thoughts / comments based on a small sample size:
I liked the list a lot. It is really aggressive and gets to a point where you just BBE the opponent every turn. It has more of a "normal jund" feel to it than some of the 4/5c shadow decks, so I agree it is more of a Traverse deck than a "Shadow" deck. I felt like I was playing Jund but instead of gambling w bob and using him for my CA engine I simply put out huge beaters and searched up BBE after BBE to end the game quickly rather than "durdle" with a 24-25 land midrange build.
The fourth Goyf is definitely needed but I'm not sure where to cut for him yet. The obvious choice is the second Grim Flayer, but I really like the high threat density and Flayer is such a beating in a lot of matchups. I could see the cut also being something like the second Dreadbore.
The mana base was pretty good. The addition of a few basics helps a bunch against Field of Ruin / Path to Exile and also has applications to save some life when needed. The key really is to use Traverse even for basics to ensure you have 4 mana on turn four and then just start the BBE beatings, like geneyquakes mentioned.
For some reason I felt like I couldn't put out Death's Shadow as quickly as I can with the 4/5 color versions. Probably has to do w a somewhat less vital need to shock yourself into oblivion with only 3 colors, but could also just be variance.
I thought I would miss not having any Liliana of the Veil or Inquisition of Kozilek in the 75, but it wasn't that noticeable.
The addition of tribal and enchantment types in Tarfire and Seal of Fire really helps a lot with ensuring Delirium for Traversing to BBEs asap as well as huge goyfs. I don't think I ever swung with smaller than a 5/6 all night.
I'm not a huge fan of the sideboard but its mostly personal preference here. I don't think any of the choices are objectively wrong. Cards I would probably not run based on years of "normal" jund experience and a handful of months of shadow experience:
I would be interested in fitting in some combination of Temur Battle Rage, Liliana of the Veil or Last Hope, Maelstrom Pulse, an extra Collective Brutality or two, Kozileks return or Anger of the Gods in the board over the above choices right now. I feel that TBR is still the best plan against decks where I would want blood moon, and Jund Charm while decent seems better served as a dedicated sweeper effect to me. Given that the main only runs 4 Thoughtseize as its targeted discard I could totally see a world where I would want more than just the two brutalities in the board given their ridiculous versatility.
I spent a lot of time trying to make Grim Flayer work in Jund when he was spoiled and never got consistent delirium until these street wraith / mishra's bauble shells became a reality. During that time I thought about utilizing traverse too since I was jumping through so many hoops to enable delirium but just couldn't see how to fit it in. This variant is kind of what I was trying to get to work but never cracked, so I'm kind of excited to test it more.
What matchups are you bringing in 2 more Snapcaster Mage? Have you tried with just a single in the board and utilizing that slot for something else? Not sure exactly what I would put there, really, just seems that with 3 Snapcaster Mage and 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald you probably have one whenever you need one, no?.
After additional testing, I think I'm closing in on the 75 I will be playing at Indy next weekend. The Bolts have been seriously amazing. I haven't missed the additional mainboard hard removal spells because instead of trying to control their board, I've just reached across the table and finished em off with bolts instead.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it; do you miss having Liliana of the Veil in if for nothing more than another card type for Tarmogoyf / Delirium? Seems you could sub 1 Lightning Bolt for a Tarfire to offset that while still enabling the bolt-snap-bolt outs you are going for. I used to run Delay in counter-cat type decks and always loved it. It works even better here, obviously. For all intents and purposes, it is Counterspell to shadow decks.
Currently on 4C with White splash, but I'd like to try 5C with Basic Forest, has anyone had success with this and if so, what did you cut for the Forest?
This is what I've been running in my 5c list. There's a lot of blood moon / ponza / path type decks in my meta so the extra basic is nice. Haven't had too many issues resulting from its inclusion
Anyone notice a big uptick in bad matchups on MTGO? Jeskai, UW Control, Affinity and Elves are tough and sometimes demoralizing matches. GBx can also be not very great depending on your sideboard.
Once we are topdecking vs opponents its almost game over since the threats we draw are so small and rarely pull double duty. No man-lands also hurts us there. Would be nice to figure out some sort of value engine like the Oketra's Monument + Whitemane Lion combo.
You can always adjust the 75 to account for such a meta shift.
I haven't really played this deck yet, so who am i to talk, but I feel that eerie interlude is WAY nastier than Xathrid Necromancer...you bounce your entire team from a wrath effect, or lethal damage from blocking, then they all come back, and ALL triggers happen at the same time. So as you can imagine, that can get pretty gross and give you a potential lethal swing on the turn around, especially with champions and lieutenants in the mix.
good effect but probably wrong deck. its a spell, so dilutes your coco's or vials. anything that isn't a human really need to have a great reason to be run in a deck like this. basically path to exile, coco, vial are the only noncreature things i would put in.
All of this makes a lot of the SCG Classic winner's deck choices really odd to me, but it's also very telling.
What do you think it tells us?
Seems like he tried some relatively unconventional things and they either worked out in his favor or he dodged the bad matchups (or combination of both).
The very bad thing about Jund is Lightning Bolt being a very weak card since rising of Death's Shadow decks. Amd even worse is that Jund really needs Bolt to be good because it is also quite good game ending spell. Without having a Bolt in Jund I would just play straight BG because what is the point of red without a playset of Bolts?
"There's more that red offers than just bolts" would be my answer. Having played a lot of rock over the last few weeks, it is a solid deck but has trouble in dealing with higher cmc threats without resorting to conditional removal spells like Go for the Throat or less efficient spells like Maelstrom Pulse. You also get access to solid 4 drops like Olivia Voldaren and Huntmaster of the Fells and sideboard staples such as Ancient Grudge.
Lightning Bolt has become somewhat weaker but it can deal with a lot of the lesser toughness 3+ drop creatures that people have started moving to in an attempt to avoid Fatal Push like Tireless Tracker, Goblin Rabblemaster, all of the cmc reducing creatures from Storm, etc. It can also provide the reach to end a game as well as kill planeswalkers. Should you be running a full four? Maybe, maybe not. Meta call, yadda^3.
Here's some basic guidelines as to where I find these cards to be useful. Others will have different opinions and as always there's no hard rules on anything:
Grafdigger's Cage: dredge, collected company decks, snapcaster mage decks, nahiri decks Blessed Alliance: burn, deaths shadow Collective Brutality: burn, small zoo decks, collected company decks, decks where I need more discard - typically combo decks like ad nauseum Runed Halo: I've never been a huge fan, but I guess it has applications against scapeshift naming valakut? Also good against decks that typically put a single big threat on board - assume this pilot brings it in against deaths shadow. Stony Silence: affinity, Gx tron (if they can't cycle their eggs and maps they lose a ton of their consistency), lantern, passable vs eldrazi tron to cut out maps and walking ballista Flaying Tendrils: affinity, company decks, dredge, swarm strategies Maelstrom Pulse: general purpose when you need more removal, decks w tons of planeswalkers, decks w lingering souls or other token strategies Painful Truths: control decks, midrange decks Damnation: eldrazi decks, swarm strategies Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: midrange decks, control decks Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: dredge, company decks, mirror match, burn, non-token swarm decks to a degree Sigarda, Host of Herons: midrange decks, liliana of the veil decks, eldrazi decks (for all is dust), control decks
If I may, I'll add one things to the excellent list dcovino has thoughtfully provided.
Add Bogles to the Blessed Alliance list. Bogles could also be added to the Runed Halo list.
Halo is best at preventing damage from non-creature sources as removal is just better against creatures, but Halo can do the job against creatures too. It's worth noting that one Halo can neuter multiple creatures whereas a removal spell gets only one copy (usually).
Good call on Bogles. I almost never see that deck in my area so I tend to forget it exists.
Here's some basic guidelines as to where I find these cards to be useful. Others will have different opinions and as always there's no hard rules on anything:
Grafdigger's Cage: dredge, collected company decks, snapcaster mage decks, nahiri decks Blessed Alliance: burn, deaths shadow Collective Brutality: burn, small zoo decks, collected company decks, decks where I need more discard - typically combo decks like ad nauseum Runed Halo: I've never been a huge fan, but I guess it has applications against scapeshift naming valakut? Also good against decks that typically put a single big threat on board - assume this pilot brings it in against deaths shadow. Stony Silence: affinity, Gx tron (if they can't cycle their eggs and maps they lose a ton of their consistency), lantern, passable vs eldrazi tron to cut out maps and walking ballista Flaying Tendrils: affinity, company decks, dredge, swarm strategies Maelstrom Pulse: general purpose when you need more removal, decks w tons of planeswalkers, decks w lingering souls or other token strategies Painful Truths: control decks, midrange decks Damnation: eldrazi decks, swarm strategies Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: midrange decks, control decks Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: dredge, company decks, mirror match, burn, non-token swarm decks to a degree Sigarda, Host of Herons: midrange decks, liliana of the veil decks, eldrazi decks (for all is dust), control decks
He even brought TWO Feed the Clan in the sideboard. That's just plain weird when we have Collective Brutality for Burn.
I assumed he would bring the Feed the Clan in against scapeshift in addition to burn and the typical aggro decks. I've never found it to be worth the slot(s), for what its worth.
BTW: If you have a champion and a mana dork in hand, what do you usually play first? I usually start with the dork.
Relatively new to the deck, but unless I have a Collected Company in hand that I want to play on t3 or a land light hand, I play Champion of the Parish on t1. This deck seems to want to be the aggressor so I want to start swinging early and often w champions. Obviously, there's not real hard rule to it all.
I really like rhonas.becouse its hard to remove and lingering tokens 3/1 trample was nice.few times 6/5 7/6 goif with trample won games. Overall really impresed with it. I won one game against tokens just becouse i drew rhonas and activate ability on goyf and attack one spirit couldnt stop goyf
You could also just run a Rancor; gives you not only trample but another type to feed the tarmogeese if it happens to hit the gy.
What matchups are you bringing in 2 more Snapcaster Mage? Have you tried with just a single in the board and utilizing that slot for something else? Not sure exactly what I would put there, really, just seems that with 3 Snapcaster Mage and 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald you probably have one whenever you need one, no?.
Dylan Hovey focuses almost entirely on traverse shadow and streams a couple times a week on twitch.
Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it; do you miss having Liliana of the Veil in if for nothing more than another card type for Tarmogoyf / Delirium? Seems you could sub 1 Lightning Bolt for a Tarfire to offset that while still enabling the bolt-snap-bolt outs you are going for. I used to run Delay in counter-cat type decks and always loved it. It works even better here, obviously. For all intents and purposes, it is Counterspell to shadow decks.
This is what I've been running in my 5c list. There's a lot of blood moon / ponza / path type decks in my meta so the extra basic is nice. Haven't had too many issues resulting from its inclusion
You can always adjust the 75 to account for such a meta shift.
good effect but probably wrong deck. its a spell, so dilutes your coco's or vials. anything that isn't a human really need to have a great reason to be run in a deck like this. basically path to exile, coco, vial are the only noncreature things i would put in.
What do you think it tells us?
Seems like he tried some relatively unconventional things and they either worked out in his favor or he dodged the bad matchups (or combination of both).
"There's more that red offers than just bolts" would be my answer. Having played a lot of rock over the last few weeks, it is a solid deck but has trouble in dealing with higher cmc threats without resorting to conditional removal spells like Go for the Throat or less efficient spells like Maelstrom Pulse. You also get access to solid 4 drops like Olivia Voldaren and Huntmaster of the Fells and sideboard staples such as Ancient Grudge.
Lightning Bolt has become somewhat weaker but it can deal with a lot of the lesser toughness 3+ drop creatures that people have started moving to in an attempt to avoid Fatal Push like Tireless Tracker, Goblin Rabblemaster, all of the cmc reducing creatures from Storm, etc. It can also provide the reach to end a game as well as kill planeswalkers. Should you be running a full four? Maybe, maybe not. Meta call, yadda^3.
Good call on Bogles. I almost never see that deck in my area so I tend to forget it exists.
Grafdigger's Cage: dredge, collected company decks, snapcaster mage decks, nahiri decks
Blessed Alliance: burn, deaths shadow
Collective Brutality: burn, small zoo decks, collected company decks, decks where I need more discard - typically combo decks like ad nauseum
Runed Halo: I've never been a huge fan, but I guess it has applications against scapeshift naming valakut? Also good against decks that typically put a single big threat on board - assume this pilot brings it in against deaths shadow.
Stony Silence: affinity, Gx tron (if they can't cycle their eggs and maps they lose a ton of their consistency), lantern, passable vs eldrazi tron to cut out maps and walking ballista
Flaying Tendrils: affinity, company decks, dredge, swarm strategies
Maelstrom Pulse: general purpose when you need more removal, decks w tons of planeswalkers, decks w lingering souls or other token strategies
Painful Truths: control decks, midrange decks
Damnation: eldrazi decks, swarm strategies
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: midrange decks, control decks
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: dredge, company decks, mirror match, burn, non-token swarm decks to a degree
Sigarda, Host of Herons: midrange decks, liliana of the veil decks, eldrazi decks (for all is dust), control decks
I assumed he would bring the Feed the Clan in against scapeshift in addition to burn and the typical aggro decks. I've never found it to be worth the slot(s), for what its worth.
Relatively new to the deck, but unless I have a Collected Company in hand that I want to play on t3 or a land light hand, I play Champion of the Parish on t1. This deck seems to want to be the aggressor so I want to start swinging early and often w champions. Obviously, there's not real hard rule to it all.
Aside from being a little heavy on cards for a control / midrange mirror it looks ok to me. What cards in particular did you want explanation on?
You could also just run a Rancor; gives you not only trample but another type to feed the tarmogeese if it happens to hit the gy.