MTG Salvation

Piledrivers are an absolute must.

You need them to have a reasonable shot versus noninteractive combo decks; without them, Goblins goldfishes too slow. Pro blue is also very relevant; you can attack through Snapcasters, through thing in the ice, block awoken horror forever, and dredge has no creature that can block it (forget Hogaak, it's gone next week). And together with a tutorable Legion Loyalist, it can crush through any boardstall for lethal.

I was 100% on the Frogtosser Banneret train at the start but I'm now convinced the card is too weak. The acceleration is great, but individually it is rarely worth a card, needing multiple Ringleaders to be worth the investment.

My list for reference;

Kind of poetic for old mtgs to go down right before such a controversial ban update. My last post on the matter will kind of repeat what I've said for a long time now: Modern as an FNM format is incredibly diverse. You can sleeve up almost anything and do well at any small tournament and have fun.

However, if you are solely focussing on results, if you do not plan on ending the game on turn 3, you are fooling yourself. Modern thrives on people clinging to strategies that are outdated. If Modern was started carte blanche today, two thirds of the decks people play would never exist. Even so, those decks pick up big wins because magic is a cardgame. But if you sit down and try to beat Modern as a format, the chance that you come up with "taking turns" as the solution is zero. And when I go to a big event and get Hogaak'd or Phoenix'd or Tron'd I can only think "yeah, you are completely right".

I still play Modern every week and have fun, but I also say every week: Ban Faithless Looting

I'll root for a Faithless Looting ban until the day it happens. I expect to only see Hogaak targeted bans next week but just maybe Hogaak was enough to make someone at RnD realize Looting has be the thorn in Modern for a very long time now.

I'm also incredibly disappointed that Magic Arena's Historic format got announced with he excitement of a wet fart without any old sets being brought in. I yearn for a new eternal format that isn't kept in a chokehold by the reserved list

For those looking for Jeskai to shine again, Druid combo abusing Giver of Runes and infect abusing Scale Up make Jeskai interesting again. Having a giant ball of spot removal is crucial against those decks and that has always been Jeskai's forte.

Quote from Hellgrammite »

Yes, I would But yes, if you want your deck to be competitive, and your not using vial

You're not competitive without vial, full stop.

The original comparison was to Declaration in Stone, but Winds is just much better. Declaration gives your opponent the odds of drawing a relevant spell off your removal whilst Winds guarantees a land, and although Declaration could theoretically get multiple creatures off the board, Winds overload is just straight up an extra wrath.

However, I wouldn't run it over Oust, as I originally thought. Right now I actually have it over the third Wrath, to keep my curve lower whilst still having access to a lategame wrath if need be. With the cmc4 slot becoming incredibly crowded, that feels very good.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from pierrebai »

F2F Hamilton modern open was won by Hogaak, with two copies of the deck placing in the top 8.

The report says they were surprised it was not played more, being so dominant: "We had two copies of the deck in our Hamilton Top 8, and from where I’m sitting, that number is actually pretty low for how good this deck is compared to the rest of the format."

Either buy it now or sell it now, I'd say.

People are likely hesitant to buy in since it will very likely be banned. With Eldrazi, the opportunity cost of so many free wins was small since, other than Eye of Ugin, pretty much everything in the deck was dirt cheap and available in current Standard sets. If you don't have Vengevines, Bloodghasts, Bridges, Gravecrawlers, and Hogaak himself (in addition to the black fetchlands, you're looking at a LOT of money to buy into a deck that is very likely not set to live past July 8th.

It's a lot easier and faster to buy/sell/change decks on MTGO, but paper metas are much slower. Buying cards is a more weighty investment, and selling them is slow and arduous for most players. As a result, paper metas are often filled with Cards_I_Own.dec (also helping to contribute to the idea of "diversity").

This is definitely a thing, I expect a lot of people assume the deck will be gone in such a short timespan it's not worth investing money and time into; the deck is pretty hard to pilot optimally.

If WotC ruins modern for 3 months on July 8th, I expect the Hogaak share to explode

Quote from Goatchokingboy »

Hey all, I've been trying to find a modern deck that I love, and I for some reason picked up a mythic nahiri for my marsh flat... but thats besides the point. Is the old Nahiri list seeing any win's or is it pretty much all teferi and jace since his unbanning.

Nahiri Jeskai has been off the map for a while. In general, Jeskai has fallen out of favour for straight UW. Nahiri would still be fine for FNM though; I'm a big Nahiri fan and in my opinion as long as you have the proactive Nahiri wincon backed up by individually powerful cards you can't go too wrong.

I haven't looked at Nahiri for a while, but new cards like Narset and Force of Negation would definitely slide in that deck.

Quote from chaos021 »

I'm curious if what y'all would think of for an updated Jeskai control list. Lightning Bolt is starting to look really appealing again, but it's been so long since I played, I'm not sure I'd trust anything I would put together. I've been playing a lot of Esper control, but that deck doesn't fit my play style. You don't really ever get to turn the corner and go on offense.

I'm on straight UW now since I think it's the best deck in the format right now (other than Hogaak of course), but I really miss my bolts. I experimented a bit with Geist of Saint Traft but then realized again that I just really loathe that card


As I said above I think the best way to approach Jeskai now is to look ath the UW Midrange decks and go from there, as adapting UW Control into Jeskai doesn't add that much and worsens your tron matchup. Restoration Angel has proven me time and time again that she is excellent right now, and I think that a build closer to Jeskai Flash could get some work done. We now also have Teferi Time Raveler to turn Spell Queller into a 2 for 1.

I think the days of Search for Azcanta are over with the printing of Narset. Maybe as a one of, but the floor on Narset is just so much better than SFA

If you have played with Piledriver a long time ago, then the meta must have been different from what it is now. I know that Hogaak will definitely be banned, causing a shift in the meta really soon, but there are other decks now that didn't exist back then (Phoenix and Thopter being the newest additions). So comparing your past experiences with the current ones is not an equal comparison.

The power of him isn't that he can't be removed by blue spells (although that does help against UW Control, where they cannot bounce it with Cryptic Command, Jace, The Mind Sculptor or either Teferis) or that he can't be countered (he can indeed be countered, but counterspells are notoriously bad against us,because we run Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls); he is really good because he is a big threat, and needs to be answered. And when the opponent chooses to remove a Piledriver, that is one removal spell they cannot use on Matron or Ringleader.

What I was saying is that in the decks I mentioned, there are only very few creatures that can block Piledriver, and even if they happen to have one of those, we have Munitions Expert, Pashalik Mons, Tarfire, Mogg Fanatic and/or Cratermaker as removal, so we can swing through with a 11/2. And if they are a deck that play few big creatures, they would either have to block with something like a Reality Smasher, Primeval Titan, or Tarmogoyf, or take a lot of damage. This also makes it so that other goblins (like Warchief) have a bigger chance of not getting blocked/killed in combat.
As for Plague Engineer: when the opponent plays it, our main concern is getting rid of it, not getting in with Piledriver, so that argument is a bit loose. Any Goblin that survives that semi-sweeper is a big plus for us.

We are not an aggro deck, and we do not want to attack every turn. We are only going to attack when a) the opponent has no creatures and/or we need to race, or b) if we can win. Getting in with Piledriver is not our main way of winning (that would be swinging with (almost) everything and saccing it post combat with Sling-Gang), but it is a really good plan B that we can Matron for to swing for lethal out of nowhere.

Note that a big upside for Piledriver is that you can Vial it in at the end of your opponent's turn, and you can also give it haste with Warchief. This can make for some surprise attacks that the opponent didn't see coming (and didn't leave blockers open for). Also important: having multiples is insanely strong in almost all matchups.

It helps us race against a lot of the top decks that are being played right now: Tron, UR Phoenix, Dredge, Storm, Spirits, Humans, UW Control, Valakut, Burn, and Thopter. It also survives more than most our goblins do: Wrenn and Six, Lava Dart, Gut Shot, Plague Engineer, or being blocked by 1/1's.

Another thing I'd like to add is that I've seen and talked to a number of other Goblins players, and they all play 2-3 Piledrivers, with good results and a really positive view on the card.

And to answer the last part of your response: the purpose of Piledriver is to race your opponent. Goblins is a control-combo deck, and generally gets outraced by decks like Burn or fast combo decks. Piledriver helps combat those decks, making our bad mautchups better.
A more subjective thing, but: I would cut one Frogtosser Banneret and 2 Chieftains, or one Frogtosser, one Chieftain, and either one Tarfire, Pashalik Mons, or Skirk Prospector.

And to explain a bit about Chieftain, which links nicely with The Fluff's question:
Like I said before, Goblins is not an aggro deck. A lot of people make that mistake, but it is actually combo-control (for the lack of a better term for such a versatile deck). We want to block our opponent's creatures forever with Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Matron etc, draw cards forever (which is THE reason to play this deck; no other deck can grind like we can), and win in one turn with an alpha strike + Sling-Gang.
Therefore, Chieftain isn't that good. He can pump our board, but if he gets removed during combat it can create an awful blocking scenario for us. It also doesn't protect our board against Plague Engineer: Jund right now is the biggest deck that runs PE, sometimes even mainboard, and Chieftain creates a house of cards like state, where only 1 damage to your Chieftain will cause it and all your pumped 1/1's to be gone.
This is also why Piledriver is generally better: He gets the boost at the start of attackers phase, and what happens to the rest doesn't matter. If Piledriver gets removed during combat, the rest of the attackers stay the same, something which you can rely on.
Trashmaster is a very strong sideboard card, but I don't think it's wanted/needed in the main.

--

For clarity, and help with your list, here is my current list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
22 Lands

4 Aether Vial
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Tarfire

4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Munitions Expert
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Frogtosser Banneret
1 Goblin Cratermaker

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Pashalik Mons

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Krenko, Mob Boss


Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Fatal Push
2 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Blood Moon

Note that there is no 'average' Goblins list. Because Goblins is partially a control deck, we have to change when the meta changes.
Some things that deviate the most from other decks (even though my deck is a pretty average list):
The amount of Skirk Prospectors (0-4), Mogg Fanatics (0-4), and Legion Loyalists (0-1)
The amount of Frogtosser Bannerets (0-4), Goblin Cratermakers (0-2), Sling-Gangs (1-2) and Krenko's (0-1)
The amount of lands (22 or 23), the amount of Field of Ruins (0-4), the amount of Swamps (0-1)

Other sideboard cards that you can use are:
Damping Sphere
Chalice of the Void
Leyline of the Void (even though I don't think it's needed after the ban)
Surgical Extraction
Warren Weirding x1
Stingscourger x1
Another Pashalik Mons (so you have 2 total, helps against Humans)
Goblin Ruinblaster

man you guys are thinking way too hard over-analyzing what, at face value, was a rather straightforward decision.

like attributing choosing bridge over another card because they are greedy and only care about selling new product. is it not possible that bridge was chosen because it was actually the appropriate choice given its role in the most degenerate play patterns and its awkward and frankly poor design?

similarly their citing of certain data points but not including all the data they looked at isnt some deliberate attempt at deceive or hide anything. there isnt some set of immutable guidelines for ban decisions where some burden of proof exists. they are just people designing a game, and they adapt the 'rules' as they see fit in order to craft what they believe is a more enjoyable environment. so you either agree or you dont, and in turn you trust them or you dont. i get that players, especially ones that might use this forum/thread, would delight in more transparency; however it behooves wizards not to share everything they look at and the specifics because its needlessly constrains future decisions by setting precedent/expectations that most will likely misinterpret.

i mean did anything about the announcement seem unreasonable if taken at face value? regardless if anyone believed bridgevine didnt ultimately cross some line, i dont believe it can be argued the deck w/ bridge wasnt at least a borderline case.

It's really amazing how users can complain about having to read posts they don't like yet refuse to simply use the ignore function.

Quote from arcane7828 »

Since everyone is doing it... Modern is fine.

The game has evolved, we can accept it or ban everything to oblivion, back to battle cruiser standard levels.

I miss the days when the meta would stew for months , not just days before everyone start talking about bans.

Magic is not just the gathering of sideboards... sometimes sideboards are all it takes. At other times the upheaval is enough that
Decks must change to address the new meta.

Sideboards are a privilege to allow 60 cards to stay relatively the same.
It does not mean decks do not die and become obsolete.
That has been true since the dawn of magic as a game.

That is all.

And why are some so afraid of bans that make the format better? Too many games are ending before turn4, and that makes it boring for most people.
It can't be for pure monetary reasons, come on. If you are playing faitless looting.dek, specially hogaak.dek, it's really your fault you didn't sell the expensive pieces before the bans.

Quote from idSurge »

Probe hit 2 decks, and forced 1 to be even better.

It also hit Grixis Control and many Delver strategies, which have been irrelevant ever since. Who knows if they would have survived anyway? But it was a killing blow to Delver with the addition of Fatal Push.

Looting, is too important a piece of the format imo. Its our Brainstorm.

I no longer care. Looting is an atrocity. And if they're going to look us in the face and tell us Looting is OK, then why in the living hell is Preordain banned?

Bridge + Altar will kill the deck, and if thats the goal, so be it.

Nuke it from orbit.

Quote from ed06288 »

Ross Merriam makes a good argument for never unbanning stoneforge mystic. Stoneforge isn't exactly strong but also doesn't warp the way a deck is constructed. "The opportunity cost to run twin or stoneforge packages is almost zero." I personally feel that stoneforge would make tempo decks too strong.

That's not a good argument. If lack of opportunity cost is a problem, then we should be banning Lightning Bolt; exactly what opportunity cost does that card have? Or Path to Exile? Or Thoughtseize? Or, heck, the fetchlands? In fact, I'd say all of those have less opportunity cost than Stoneforge Mystic. And while Tarmogoyf's stock has gone down considerably due to Fatal Push being printed, for a long time that card had the opportunity cost of... having to play cards that were already good. Reminds me of how I've seen it remarked that the "downside" of Delver of Secrets in Legacy is having to play what are already the best cards in the format.

As for the Splinter Twin example, that makes even less sense, because there is major opportunity cost. The combo requires 10 cards in your deck, which is hardly a minor amount, and all of them--all of them--are mediocre-to-terrible by themselves. That means that you've taking out 10 good cards in favor of cards that are not good in order to try to pull off or threaten the combo. The claim there's barely an opportunity cost is laughable.

To be fair, I am responding to your representation of his argument, so maybe he said it better originally... but as presented, it's a nonsense argument.

I'm not yet on the ban wagon for this one, but I do think it's really annoying that they keep printing "0cmc" things for graveyard decks. Now we have everything from 2/1s, 3/3s, and 3/2 fliers to an 8/8, back down to 2/2 token swarm that in some lists for no reason turns into a 9/7 for R as well as a 4/3 haste in a random color, now we're looking at the potential for T2 mill with grave strategy back up. But SFM is still banned? Counterspell is too good? We can only allow one flavor of control and it's UW? Give me a break.

Hogaak is probably just another passing phase, but they keep printing the same stuff that keeps getting this "WHOA, IT'S FREE, BROKEN META FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH TOURNAMENT RESULTS"* and always in the same strategy (graveyard) and it's getting tiring. I admit they did actually ban KCI, but they epicly failed to recognize that hate cards like RIP and Void are getting out paced by yard strategies once they figure out the play pattern. It's still happening. We've seen Dredge vine win T2 against RIP, regular dredge pull out wins against good solid hate, Phoenix ignore it and win with other angles because "xerox" (like hard casting a Phoenix because you have low removal now). And now they think they'll just print an 8/8 that's psudo free AND give it a new win angle in mill!? How is this different?

After Hogaak is adequately hated out of the meta, I can't wait for them to print the next grave strategy that we have to lament over for the next 3-6 months despite me owning literally all of the grave hate relevant to anyone (I even went out of my way to get 4 Withered Wretch) and for no reason other than WotC "forgot it breaks things". Remember when you had to pay for things? Remember when the benefit from playing land was that you could generate more mana? Well now it's that you get two 2/1s, a couple 3/3s, and maybe an 8/8. Remember when the text on spells mattered beyond "cantrip"? Well, doesn't matter now because you get a few 3/2 flying haste! Counterspell kills diversity, but if I smack my deck full of "draw a card" I can play 3 of the exact same creature every game for 6 months.

I'll admit that control got some toys. We got some powerful things. But where is the free stuff? Azcanta is a T2 do nothing. Jace, as we've all found out, is pretty fragile. Teferi comes into play after you're dead. Veto is a card that only polices control, so it's awesome that control now pushes itself out of the meta. Archmage's Charm is pretty middling to bad. Force of Negation? Good sideboard tech against niche decks. Where is my removal that I can use every time I play a land? Why can't I cast Essence Scatter every time I cast 3 spells? Snapcaster? You know that costs actual mana, right? And then I still have to pay for the spell!

Tired of graveyards. Tired of free. Tired of being told "you're getting powerful things" only to watch it receive minimal testing at release and no one pay it a second thought.

/rant

*Not trying to shoot at ktk, btw, just how they ban things or how long it takes the meta to adjust.

I apologize. I would expect downvotes, but as a great king once said "We, we don't do that here."

Quote from rowej »

I'm legit shocked so many people are complaining.

Tons of cards in this set are going to Top 8 GP/PT's over the next year and we STILL have cards left to go...

It's not the fact that there aren't powerful cards; there are some that will significantly impact the format. For me, it's that this was a chance to get some really interesting old reprints, but instead we got many cards, themes, and cycles more squarely aimed at Commander instead.

Now don't get me wrong; I love seeing Carrion Feeder, Goblin Matron, and the cycling lands again. Kudos to Wizards for these! For a set that commands a premium price, though, it just feels like we missed out on some more cards like Vindicate and Containment Priest for...bear lords? Or more of the callbacks done in ways to prop up more fair decks instead, like a Rishadan Port variant that couldn't target basics, or a better Torpor Orb that could stuff land or artifact triggers as well. Heck, just call it Time Spiral 2, or Magic Anthology, and lose the premium pricing. It feels like the Modern considerations are secondary here based on the overall contents, but that the push to drop supplemental cards directly into the format is the entire reason we're paying a premium. I love a lot of these cards, both new and old, but it doesn't feel very Modern-centric to me, if that makes sense.

Quote from Snowflakes »

Quote from ktkenshinx »

The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.

1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.

2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.

3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.

It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.

I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.

Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.

I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.

Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.

Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.

Aside from filling out the horizon canopy cycle, the most exciting thing for me so far has been the reveal that slivers actually look like slivers again rather than those M14 Predator abominations. Lots of set left to reveal, but the vibes I'm getting from what we've gotten thus far tells me not to hold my breath for Counterspell entering Modern anytime soon. Still hoping we'll end up getting some solid reprints added to the format (e.g. containment priest, sylvan library, sterling grove, etc).