MTG Salvation

Noice! I didn't realize that Trinisphere was so expensive. I guess it's really good in Vintage and Legacy? I'll try and trade into it if I can.

It really depends. I've had great success with both Dispel AND Mental Misstep. I think that the Misstep hits a more varied sort of permanents while also stopping some of the relevant counterspells you would see that break up your turn while Dispel safeguards your combo turn pretty solidly. I prefer to be a little bit more proactive with my control elements, so I'd personally recommend the Misstep. You could run either of them and be totally fine.

I'm really high on Force of Negation, personally. Having another pseudo Force of Will effect is always welcome and the 1UU to defend a combo turn is not THAT big of a deal, particularly in a big mana deck like Urza. I highly recommend running it, since this deck is mostly afraid of non-creature spells comboing out before we can. Looking at you, Flash Hulk and Food Chain...

Quote from Theoric »

Quote from Jivanmukta »

Arcum is redundant and slow.
Shackles seems redundant and worse than Legacy's Allure

Having more than one counterspell is redundant too. And don't forget to cut sol ring, mox opal, etc....because they're redundant. As you can see, calling something redundant is not a valid argument.
Arcum has been a star in my urza deck. He'll cheat in paradox at instant speed unless he's dealt with, and any card that has to be dealt with is a good card.

Not sure which is better between legacy's allure and shackles. But if there's a creature shutting you down or threatening to combo off, there's plenty of cards that will tutor for shackles and maybe one or two that will fetch the allure. And even if I do find the allure I'll probably have to wait a while before I can use it.

Hey has anyone playtested howling mine in this deck? I find the interaction between it an Urza rather amusing.

I think that there are better draw effects available to the deck? And if Urza were to somehow not stay in play, than the Mine does benefit the table. Not the worst thing I suppose, but the fact that it helps the table when Urza ISN'T in play seems like a strike against the card, in my mind.

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that Shackles is better than the Allure. Being a repeatable effect is the bee's knees (where did this expression even come from??) and it helps increase the Artifact density in the deck. It's tutorable via the majority of the tutors in the deck and it can be cast and activated the turn it comes into play, more often than not. I like Shackles and have always liked Shackles and will continue to run it in any mono-Blue deck.

I think you should play both, Jiv.

Quote from Wraith223 »

I need to switch from Memnarch to Urza. Sad days.
Moment of silence for my man Memnarch.....

Ok...as soon as Urza shows up in the mail, I will be running this.

Yes, a moment of peace and respect for the Mad Mechanical Memnarch.

*bows head*

Quote from Wraith223 »

I don’t want my opponents drawing extra cards!!!! I have Slivers in my meta. Noooo.
Found holes for Invoke Prejudice and Forcefield. Works better actually.
The sky ship is way to slow to me and just not reliable.
Echo of Eons is really good for me as I can not afford a timetwister.
Need to pick up trinisphere and transmute artifact. Not cheap but attainable.
Power artifact is still needed in my opinion as it’s another infinite combo.
Dispel and trickbind/stifle needs to be considered as I have been seeing it do some work in games.
I like the futuresight combo buts a lot of cards to assemble. Adding a spot a for the sculptor is hard.
Thoughts on null rod?

Yeah, Echo of Eons is a godsend to budget cEDH players. I'm so glad they printed one. Now, they just need a functional [CARD}Transmute Artifact[/CARD} replacement.

I think you're underestimating the Future Sight combos. All of the pieces are individually good and Future Sight + Engine is really awesome too. I'm now at the point where I'm beginning to consider Future Sight as a staple card (for me).

I can't wait for my Urza to get here!

The Ineffable won't be bothered by uncompleated organisms that haven't tasted of The Grand Evolution!

That's a surprisingly relevant list. Thanks for sharing your feedback about [CARD]Necroskitter[/CARD}. I thought it was a win-more card when people were including it in their lists, and I'm glad that it's justified.

I might be able to spend some time on Cockatrice at the end of the summer once I'm done with school. Last semester starts in a couple of weeks and then I'll be done with that stupid degree.

Since you've actually had a chance to test out Yawgmoth, did you find that you were light on card draw or removal? I know that Yawgmoth functions as both, and I want to make sure that my own decklist isn't super dependent on Yawgmoth being in play.

It also finds Genesis Chamber for maximum Norin shenanigans.

Hi ChocoDude! A short-lived welcome to MTGSal, my friend, since the site is closing down. Never fear though; a new one is in the works.

I'm pleased that the Primer has been as useful as it has been for you. That's the whole intent of writing one in the first place, so I'm delighted that it's been such a useful reference for you. I'm glad that you've discovered the best MTG format as well and welcome you to the fold.

In regards to the Mentor of the Meek vs. Beast Whisperer question: I think that the Mentor is better with the deck's core strategy because Mentor takes advantage of a creature ETB whereas the Whisperer does not. Because there is a significant presence of Blink effects in the deck, a la Eldrazi Displacer and Ghostly Flicker, the Mentor is better. Combined with a lower CMC and a more generic casting cost, I would personally encourage you to stick with the Mentor. Sure, the Whisperer works with any casting of a creature in the deck, but it doesn't synergize nearly as well with the deck in my opinion. If you're starved for card draw, then you could easily run both.

Prismatic Vista and Waterlogged Grove will definitely find homes in the deck. Now we need to wait for the allied color cycle to get fully printed. Sigh.

Sadly, this thread is a moot point now. No one wants to try this format in my playgroup, so this will end up being a thought experiment at best.

On behalf of my friend Steely Dan (username DeathDiamond here on MTGSal), I'm posting a First Sliver Food Chain Decklist and a brief reason as to why cEDH Food Chain decks should switch to The First Sliver as their Commander of choice.

First, the list, which has been copied from ShaperSavant's TappedOut list which can be found here:



One of the biggest questions that seems to pop up in the Discord server is "Why use The First Sliver instead of the new Niv?" This thread is meant to address that question specifically and will be a general comparison of the different Commanders that have helmed 5CC Food Chain decks.

• First and foremost, The First Sliver generates card advantage all by itself, independent of any restrictions (but with a randomized clause due to the Cascade mechanic), outside of the Food Chain combo. This makes it superior to Tazri, who actually does almost nothing by herself besides find a win condition from the deck. It also makes it superior to the new Niv because there is no type of restriction on the type of card that you Cascade into, barring CMC considerations (obviously); The First Sliver will ALWAYS hit a card whereas with Niv-Mizzet Reborn you have to have a certain density of dual colored spells in the deck in order to consistently and always hit a card. This means that, by itself, The First Sliver is better in a vacuum than comparable 5CC Commanders.
• The most important reason that The First Sliver is now the preferred 5CC Food Chain Commander is because you no longer have to run ANY dead cards in order to actually win the game. For Tazri, you needed to run another Ally creature card in your deck that would be able to take advantage of Tazri continuously being cast. More often than not, this meant that you were required to run 3 different Allies in the deck that were entirely worthless outside of the combo line. The same case applies to Niv-Mizzet; there were a certain number of cards that you needed to run in the deck that were not beneficial to the deck's strategy as a whole. The First Sliver can utilize existing, ALREADY GOOD cards in the decklist and convert them into actual win conditions.
To elaborate on this point a bit more, there are 3 cards in the above decklist that you can recycle infinitely via The First Sliver's Cascade trigger: Regrowth, Timetwister, and Noxious Revival. By continuously casting at least these 3 cards you are able to create an infinite looping of every spell in your deck. This means that Extract, which is a tutor effect in this deck because it can find one of the Cast-From-Exile creature cards that are necessary for the Food Chain combo, turns into a win condition because you can cast it an infinite number of times and target each of your opponent's decks from the game. You can generate infinite mana via Lotus Petal that you can use to cast Swan Song as many times as you want and Swan the table to death. You can clear them of all of their permanents via Assassin's Trophy to make sure that your Alfred Hitchcock Flock kills the table. The First Sliver essentially turns valuable utility spells into Win Conditions by being able to recycle them repeatedly. This is THE most important distinction as to why The First Sliver is now The First amongst 5CC Food Chain decks.

• And because the Forbidden tutors are so useful in finding Food Chain, and potentially exiling a Cast-From-Exile creature, they double as win conditions by enabling Laboratory Maniac and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries to win the game after a resolved draw trigger. By being able to take advantage of the Forbidden Tutors in this way, there are now 2 dedicated and highly effective Combo lines available to the deck that operate on different mechanics. These slots previously were taken up by the useless chaff that was necessary with Tazri and Niv-Mizzet to actually win the game, so you increase the power of the deck by opening up a totally different and equally powerful combo line. By diversifying the number of winning lines in the deck, your ability to consistently win regardless of the type of pressure/hate you face is massively increased.
• Additionally, by playing The First Sliver as your Commander, you are no longer vulnerable to Humility and Torpor Orb effects. This is very significant when playing in a Stax heavy meta, as there are now only two real weaknesses for the deck. Sphere of Resistance effects and Rule of Law effects are the only effects that shut down our combo lines cold and even then, we can still manually try to go for a Tainted Maniac line and try to win in response to someone casting a spell. By removing these weaknesses from the deck, Food Chain is now a very difficult strategy to effect from a Stax standpoint, increasing its efficacy at a general cEDH table.

So, TL;dr The First Sliver requires no dead cards in order to actually win, has better value as a card by itself, and reduces the weaknesses that previous Food Chain decks were exposed to. So, if you like playing Food Chain as your cEDH deck of choice, you should be playing The First Sliver as your Commander. Because who doesn't like winning with one of the most awesome creature types in all of MTG?

You're right about G. Probe losing value in a Multi-Player format, but that's not the function of the Probe. It's simply a cantrip spell to ensure that the deck hits its land drops on time. That's one of the reasons that Legacy and Modern decks run as many cantrips as possible. It helps reduce the variance of the deck while ensuring consistent land drops. Combined with fetch-lands, and can trips can then become powerful draw spells in the Mid/Late game. However, I realized that Scour all Possibilities could be better for the deck in the long run. With an 18 land count in the deck, opening hands should usually include 1-2 lands in the opening hand with a reasonable chance of drawing into another one within the first 2 turns, which is what the deck is looking for.

I figured if Dig Through Time was banned from Legacy for being too strong than I should probably try it here. With a decent suite of fetchlands, the cantrips, and the high counterspell count, I believe I'll be able to cast it for 4 CMC or under by T3 or T4 on a consistent basis, which is good enough for the deck's strategy.

The reason I think that this kind of strategy will work is because many people will try and build their decks with a similar kind of mindset that Commander entails; a curve that's above 3 CMC with higher quality card advantage cards in their deck. This deck and its strategy aims to get underneath these kinds of decks and attack their ability to cast their Oathbreaker through cheap, high-impact creatures and controlling the board through judicious use of Counterspells. The Equipment package was chosen to make those cheap CMC creatures into legitimate threats while also providing card advantage when they connect. Sinew and Steel kills Oathbreakers without having the equipped creature redirect its combat damage away from the opponent. Fire and Ice can hit any target, allowing me to keep smaller creatures off the board, add more damage in with the equipped creature's attack, or deal the last points of damage to get an Oathbreaker off the board and strand their Signature spell in the Command Zone. War and Peace nearly doubles the damage that the equipped creature can deal on a regular basis while also gaining life for the deck which in turn buys more time for the deck to execute its strategy. Jitte is the perfect card for this deck, honestly, since it does board control, tempo gain through the life gain, and damage bursts to eliminate players or their Oathbreakers.

And if this deck is going up against optimized Combo lists like Flash Hulk variants, then I welcome them to experience a true Tempo strategy. Tempo preys on Combo decks and that's what this decklist is primarily aiming to do.

My thinking for Skyship is that I could exile Mycosynth Lattice with it and then put it into my hand with Karn, but that's probably just not consistent enough. Arcum does what Skyship wants to do but better. I'll add in Tribute Mage instead since it finds a good suite of targets.

I'm not a fan of Mill win-conditions anymore. There's a Gitrog and a Shuffle Hulk player in my playgroup that both run Eldrazi titans, so I won't be adding in the Shredder anytime soon. And if I'm going infinite with Dramatic Scepter, I'm probably going to just play Urza and dump that mana into his activated ability to cast every spell in the deck (except the ones that would cause me to mill myself out).

Not sure what I'd cut for good 'ol Snappy. Any suggestions?

I think that cutting Thing in the Ice would be a mistake. With 24 instants and sorceries in the deck, there's a very high probability of flipping it into Awoken Horror which both simultaneously clears the battlefield and puts a large clock into play. It's run in Modern Delver and Arclight decks and it's power is very clear in these formats.

I'm curious as to how much removal is necessary for the deck. Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice act as pseudo removal effects, particularly Jitte. So I think it could be ok to cut Blink.

The cantrips are in there to ensure that I can find the land drops that I need on a consistent basis without clogging the deck. Again, I'd refer you to Modern and Legacy Tempo decks to get an idea of the general basis of this deck's strategy.

I think I'll be cutting Blink and change the Signature spell to [CARD}Enlightened Tutor[/CARD]. Additionally, I will be cutting Mana Leak for Sword of War and Peace. Player removal is just as effective as countering spells, amiright?

@MikePemulis
Highly agreed. Back to Basics is probably a legitimate bomb in this format. I've seen a Teferi, Time Raveler list that includes some of the best Stax/Hate pieces in the format backed by a hard lock with Knowledge Pool.

Yeah, I probably should add in some extra lands to the deck just for consistency's sake. I just don't know what to cut at this point. Since the curve is so low for the deck, it can reliably run on 1-3 lands over the course of a game, but that dynamic may be different when playing against multiple opponents.

Daze doesn't scale quite as well into the mid/late game as I want it to. Mana Leak does, although barely.

I went back and forth between Enlightened Tutor and Gush for a very long time. I'll probably end up going with the Tutor instead since the Equipment are so important to the deck.

Good idea with Skullclamp. Sword of War and Peace will definitely find a place in the deck since it shortens the clock so substantially. I still really like Sinew and Steel because I think Artifacts are going to be a part of the format in every decklist.

I really do think that this format is going to be more akin to singleton Vintage than a 60 card Commander format, which is why I took my cues from the Legacy Delver lists I've seen.

So with Oathbreaker being endorsed by many members of the Commander community, I decided I'd give it a shot as well. This decklist is meant to push Legacy style Tempo plays on the table with an extremely low curve. Since I am a competitive person by heart, many of the card choices here reflect my preferred playstyle and are built from a cEDH mindset. It doesn't have any broken I-Win combos but instead seeks to control the table and get there via combat damage, focusing on the largest threat first.



Sword of Sinew and Steel is particularly awesome for this format since you can destroy a player's Commander while continuing to pressure their life total. There are enough utility Artifacts that I imagine are present that the Sword's trigger will always be relevant.

Otherwise, this list plays out very similarly to a Legacy Delver list. Dovin was chosen as the Commander because he makes bodies to hold the equipment and gains life with his minus ability, can recover loyalty and stick around longer with his plus ability (so I don't have to recast him as often), and generates massive card draw when his ultimate is activated, furthering the Tempo Control game plan. His ability to make evasive bodies is relevant since Dovin can directly pressure other Oathbreakers with his ability and, with enough time, can ensure that any Planeswalker can be easily dealt with. He also creates blockers so that you can get Luminarch Ascension online as fast as possible.

Gush was chosen as the Signature spell because I can immediately cast it after getting Dovin into play while also providing fuel for the deck. Its uses as a card are massive, and it can be used to help supplement the low CMC of the deck by letting you pay its alternate cost in your main phase to get a land drop and cheat an extra mana. The tax will eventually add up, but it will only cost an additional 2 for each time it's recast rather than the full mana cost. The Signature Spell could easily be Enlightened Tutor since the Equipment package is so important to the deck's strategy.

I readily admit that this is probably totally against the idea of Oathbreaker, but this is how I would choose to build a list for Oathbreaker if it ever becomes a thing supported by MTGSal/new site.

EDIT: I cut the two Moxen for lands for consistency.

EDIT 2: There's another cool Signature Spell I recently considered that is fantastic with Dovin: Polymorph. I'll be brewing up another list here just so I have a compendium of Dovin lists I can switch between when I want.

That information hasn't been publicly released. It's mentioned in the announcement that Feyd is working on a new site. Once it's live and operational, I imagine another announcement will be made on this site.