Yeah both of those are cards I've been considering. I'm pretty sure I'll include Opt, Web will depend mostly on what other decks I decide to built to play against this one. I've got a list thrown together, I templated my manabase from the Antoine Ruel grixis list, but I'm really not sure if it's right, and my curve seems really high, but that might just be the Modern/Legacy player in me looking to maximize efficiency, perhaps for a standard deck it wouldn't be too clunky. Anyhow here's the list:
By the way, I know most lists won with only Nether Spirit, but Desolation Angel was in the deck I remember from back then, it's my favorite card, and although cutting the finisher entirely or replacing it with something that doesn't nuke my lands would most likely be correct (you always cast it with kicker obviously, but still), it just wouldn't be as much fun for me without. So I'm open to all suggestions and critiques other than cutting Deso
Hello all! As a nostalgia project, I've decided to rebuild some of my favorite Standard decks from when I first started playing. Most can be found online, but I'm having a bit of trouble with a particular deck - Esper Nether-Go. I've found some U/B lists, U/W (with no way to hardcast Nether Spirit) and a Grixis version (all 3 linked below). Back in the day however, the best player at my LGS would wreck me with a sweet Esper colored version, for which I can't find an online list. I'm not sure if this was a personal tweak that he played or if my google skills are just not up to par, but I'd really LOVE to rebuild something resembling that deck as closely as possible.
A lot of the core cards were the same as the other lists (Nether Spirit, Acc Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, Absorb/Undermine), it also ran Dromar's Charm and a few more cards I can't remember. Basically, I'm looking for help filling out the last few slots without destroying the curve/making the deck unplayable and rebuilding the manabase. Below is my best guess for a partial list, based off memory and the linked lists. I'm not sure if I should be adding Wraths, spot removal, discard, more counterspells or other stuff altogether.
How is this deck's match-up vs Affinity? Looks pretty good, but seeing all the hate int the sideboard makes me assume Affinity must be favored pre-board, is that right?
Yeah I think so too, but I'm only running 1 (and sb slots are hard to come by haha) and I'm wondering what else I should be doing to swing the match my way. I wasn't at all worried about the deck pre-Walking Ballista since we're favored against both Tron and Bant Eldrazi so this seemed to fall on the same spectrum, but I fear that card may swing the match-up quite heavily in their favor. I'll try to get a few reps in on Cockatrice before the event I suppose.
Anyone have much experience playing vs Eldrazi Tron? I'm going to be attending a couple tournaments soon and I hear the meta in Montreal is full of that deck. I'd love any play advice, sideboard suggestions or anything else that might give me an edge in the match-up. Thanks!
While it's true that Affinity's strength is its speed, I strongly disagree with you here. If you basically give up on winning games past turn 5, you're losing tons of equity. Grinding isn't the deck's goal, but over the last few years playing it, I've won loads of games on turn 10+ where I just chipped in where I could until I finally managed to close out the game. Since our objective is speed I would never cut any of the fast mana or power cards to make room for grind cards, but I've found that using the 17th land slot costs the deck very little, and gives it a few extra percentage points in those games that do go long. Now I'm simply trying to decide which card is best in that slot.
Hello all! In this new post-banning world, it looks like the meta is slowing down and getting grindier, so I'm re-evaluating my flex land slot and would like some input. For some context, I've been playing with only 3 Glimmervoid for a little over a year at this point and honestly can't remember a single game where I missed the 4th one. We play very few colored spells anyway, and I've found that using that last land slot for a utility land gains me much more value. For this grindy looking meta, I'm considering 3 options: Sea Gate Wreckage, Inventors' Fair and Academy Ruins. Below is a quick rundown of pros/cons for each (probably not exhaustive, just done off the top of my head). I'd like to generate some discussion of which you all think is the best option, whether through theorycrafting or experience with the cards if you have any:
SGW – Pros:
- When active, provides a steady stream of cards
- Can help dig for sb cards or best cards in match-up
- If it snowballs, highest upside
SGW – Cons:
- When inactive, provides no value at all
- Can get shut off if uncastable card in hand
- Mana intensive: can force choice between activation vs. using manlands, can get shut off every other turn due to mana being tied up casting cards in hand
- Card draw is random – lots of terrible topdecks in the late game
Inventors’ Fair – Pros:
- Lifegain mode almost always on, provides at least marginal value while search mode inactive.
- Lifegain can be pretty valuable to gain advantage in board stall, such as climbing out of “bolt-snap-bolt” range
- Allows searching out best card for situation, usually Plating or Champion
- Can offset Bitterblossom post-board, essentially netting “free” tokens
Inventors’ Fair – Cons:
- Requires “5” mana to get max value
- Land is lost once search mode activated
- If tutored card is answered (countered/destroyed), no more value provided
Academy Ruins – Pros:
- Least mana intensive of the 3 options
- If decent options are available in GY, allows choosing good cards with each activation over random draw
- Can force opponent to answer power cards over and over again, running them out of answers
Academy Ruins – Cons:
- Requires colored mana
- Useless without good options in GY
@ Sonofa*****: Wow, those decks look pretty sweet and flavorful, and the accompanying descriptions are pretty great, it shows that a LOT of work went into them. However, as Rezzahan pointed out, they're quite a bit too advanced for my current purposes; teaching a french-speaking 5 year old. I'll definitely save them somewhere for later use though, either to use as is or as something to build off of, if my kids get into it there will definitely come a time when I'll want to crank up the complexity by adding more colors to decks and more intricate interactions. Thanks for sharing!
@ Rezzahan: I'll roll the land count back to 23 then, and throw in a couple New Benalia, like you said it introduces scry but having it be just one card should make the decision much easier to make.
As for the black deck, I kind of know the types of cards I want to include, which are a lot of the things you suggested, since they're the things Black is known for. Discard, creature removal, some graveyard interaction of sorts. The issue (for now) is that I don't have a cohesive idea of how I want to wrap all those things together. I knew before I started building the decks that Red would probably be burn heavy, I wanted First Strike for White, Trample for green and I stumbled onto the ramp aspect pretty early. I'll probably follow a similar pattern to yours for the blue deck, i.e. countermagic, defensive creatures, card draw and a few finishers, but I don't have a clear plan for how I want the black deck to operate yet. I'm saving it for last since I'm still not too sure where I'm going with it, as soon as I have a chance to playtest the White deck and see if it's any good, I'll move on to the Blue deck. I'm unsure about deathtouch though, I might playtest it to see how it goes, but I'm a bit worried it might invalidate some of the other decks too much, especially the Green deck. Trading my 2-3 mana deathtoucher for your 6 mana bomb is rough, on top of Doom Blade or something which will already be doing that. I suppose the fact that a lot of Green's big dudes have trample might balance it out, we'll have to see. Anyhow, thanks again, and Merry Christmas!
So, I've got a first rough draft (that's actually 60 cards) of the white deck. Haven't had time to playtest it yet, I'll report again once I've got a few games in. For now, here's the list:
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
So, I've got a first rough draft (that's actually 60 cards) of the white deck. Haven't had time to playtest it yet, I'll report again once I've got a few games in. For now, here's the list:
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
- I decided not to include Goblin Fireslinger (although he might be the most consistent of the 3 options I was considering for pushing through damage) because he broke the burn rule of being able to go after creatures or players
- Goblin Arsonist has been great, he makes blocking awkward because he can often snipe a 1/1 on the way out, or combine with a burn spell to take out bigger creatures
- Similarly, Balloon Brigade being able to gain flying has helped prevent it from being completely irrelevant beyond turn 2 the way Raging Goblin often was, but since it requires spending a little mana, does not feel overpowered
- I cut back on the number of firebreathers but kept a few of the better ones, since they remain relevant late and act as good mana sinks
- I decided to keep Reaver over Piker, although you are absolutely right that it's above average for a red creature of that cost. To expand a bit on the thought process, all the 1/1's from the green deck that Piker was dying to had already generated some value before dying (acceleration from the dorks/Wood Elves, card drawn from Visionary), whereas Piker came into play, attacked once, died immediately and was basically 2 mana wasted most of the time. About Elvish Visionary becoming a Grizzly Bear, it's something I'll keep in mind, although I'm not 100% sure which is actually better in the deck, since it's a beatdown deck and the bear has a more relevant body
- The heavier emphasis on multi-target burn sorceries has been great, it provides flexibility and card advantage and allows the deck to come back from behind a little bit
- I cut the Ball Lightning in favor of 2 Flame Javelin. As you said, BL is basically just a burn spell that doesn't deal a fixed amount, and to help consistency, I figured 4 guaranteed damage might just be better
- I never drew Inferno in the practice games, but given that the deck is faster now and able to push more early damage through, it seems like a good fit, i.e. not too likely to finish yourself off when cast, and able to either win the game or enable a win from a topdecked burn spell later
- Flametongue Kavu is a boss. We never debated this card, I just feel like mentionning it, because I love it, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and just happens to be great
So, barring small tweaks, it looks like I've got 2 pretty functional decks!
Here's the shell I've been working on for a white deck. It doesn't have 60 cards for now (50), and I'm looking to plug some holes in the list before I start testing it. Here's what I have so far:
So, the idea here is a good old white weenie deck. The main keyword ability is First Strike, with a little bit of flying thrown in. I know Protection is a bit complicated, but I just might avoid playing this deck vs the black deck until she can understand, and then just break it down to "it can't be hurt by black magic or creatures" which I think is something a kid should be able to wrap her head around. The pay-offs are Glorious Anthem (could have used Honor of the Pure but I think that probably makes the deck too strong) and 3 Angels at the top of the curve. Inspiring Captain is like a 1-turn Anthem, so I feel it's a nice call back. Also, she may not realize it right away, but Capashen Knight sort of has Firebreathing. All the firebreathers in Red (that I included) only cost 1 to activate, whereas this is 2 mana, so it seems fair to bleed it into white at a reduced power level. Since I'm introducing enchantments in this deck with the Anthems, and because I don't want to give the deck insane good removal in like Path to Exile or Swords, I opted for Pacifism. It could also be Journey to Nowhere, but I think "this creature doesn't want to fight anymore" is easier to explain than the whole exile thing.
The are currently no 3-mana creatures, although Glorious Anthem partly fills the 3-drop slot. Ideally, I think the deck needs a few more creatures, a couple of instant/sorcery spells (didn't have much of an idea where I wanted to go with those), and I've kept 2-3 slots for more land, I just haven't decided what to run along with the Plains.
I'll be eager to hear your thoughts on how the Red deck came along and the White shell I have so far. Have a good day!
As usual, you bring up some very good points. A few comments and questions:
- Goblin Piker was really miserable in my early playtesting because he doesn't survive a block by anything. Red finally got its first Grizzly Bear recently in Falkenrath Reaver, so I'll be trying that.
- If I stop the mana curve at 5 (which makes sense for a red deck, to be fair),it means cutting both Shivan Dragon and Inferno, so what's my exciting epic card?
- I like the idea of instant burn spells having one target and sorcery spells having multiple, it helps differentiate them, I'll be exploring that.
- You're right that scry might be a little more complicated to resolve that I'd realized. The deck really needs help with card flow though. Maybe having the multiple target burn spells with help it re-coup enough card advantage to mitigate this.
- I wasn't thrilled with adding Lightning Bolt either, but the deck needed so much help that even adding 2 bolts wasn't enough. I'll try a few Forked Bolt in that slot, but in the end, getting the decks to be more or less balanced is the most important aspect of all this, so if I have to, I'll put Lightning Bolt back in. Hopefully I can balance the decks without it.
- Goblin Fireslinger is something I hadn't thought of. I went for Raging Goblin because it was a "staple" of my terrible aggro decks when I started playing, but I have also found it lacking in actual games. I Gatherer-searched red 1-drops and a few others caught my eye, how do you feel about Goblin Balloon Brigade, Godo's Irregulars and Somberwald Vigilante ?
- Good call on Flame Javelin, I only searched burn spells up to cmc 4 so that never came up!
- I definitely agree that all the burn spells should hit both creatures and players for power/clarity.
I have been playing Magic since Onslaught, and bought booster boxes of pretty much every set since then (with a few exceptions). I was so into the game, that I had built dozens of different decks at a time from my evergrowing card collection, tinkering like a maniac. Naturally, I developed an almost encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards I owned and also those that I commonly played against. I was literaly the gatherer search engine equivalent of my playgroup. I could recite the entire texts (plus flavor texts!) of any card, or derive the name of a card simply by a vague description. Then I got into Limited, and got to play even more of the weaker cards in the sets. I actually played with pretty much every card I mentioned in this thread so far, and many more.
Also, yes, my gatherer-fu is excellent, if I dare say so myself. My Magic fanatism has cooled down over the last years and my card knowledge isn't as fantastic anymore, but I can find almost anything I want, if it exits, using gatherer. When I make these card suggestions, I almost always do a gatherer search for that kind of card beforehand, and select suitable candidates to propose.
Ah, that all makes a lot of sense. I used to know more cards from individual sets when I played standard (almost 15 years ago). Now that I don't have time to keep up with Standard and only play Modern and dabble in Legacy, cards that don't crack those formats often fly under my radar. Also, up until I started building these decks, I'd only ever used gatherer to search cards I already knew to check alternate printings and languages mostly. I'm starting to get the hang of the advanced search, but I'm definitely not a black belt in gatherer-fu.
Anyhow, I've overhauled the red deck. It's definitely better than it was, and has won a few games vs. the green deck, but I still don't feel it's quite where it needs to be. Here's the new list for reference:
So since the deck needed a serious boost in power level, I chose to replace the Volcanic Hammers (which were originally my first choice due to being sorcery) by Lightning Strike. I have 2 extra Lightning Bolts at home too, so I'm trying those out to complement Shock, which is still pretty weak overall (although it might fare better once I build other decks which don't contain enormous creatures). I kept Ball Lightning (even added a 2nd) because I love the flavor and feel of it, but I'm open to cutting it later if it becomes necessary.
I put in a lot a firebreathers, which has made the deck stronger, but also makes it a bit more awkward to decide how to spend your mana (pump vs. develop board/burn spells). I never drew the 1-of Inferno in the few practice games I ran, so I'm unsure as of yet if it's any good. I slotted in Magma Jet at 2cmc because the deck needs help with card flow/selection, so even getting a crappy rate for 2 damage seemed worth it. I also put in 1 Exquisite Firecraft, mostly because it's 3 mana for 4 damage which is a pretty good rate in mono-red. That slot could also be Flames of the Blood Hand. Frankly, both cards have text which is going to be irrelevant a lot of the time which kind of bothers me because it adds useless complexity like 90% of the time, but so far that's where I'm at.
I'm aware that there's a whole at 5 mana on the curve, but since a lot of the creatures are mana sinks I haven't found that to be too problematic thus far. As I said, it's definitely an improvement, but I'd gladly take more suggestions in order to make it a bit better still to bring it closer to 50/50 with the green deck. Also, in trying to make the deck stronger, I've gotten to a point where it contains 0 vanilla creatures. I hope that doesn't end up making it too overwhelming...
As an aside, I've started looking into the white deck (going for a weenies/first strike/glorious anthem theme), hopefully it measures up ok vs the other 2 decks once it's complete. I'll post a list once I have something more concrete put together. Cheers!
As always, these are really good ideas. Frankly, I hadn't even realized a bunch of common creatures would have firebreathing, I'll have to do more research and see how many decent ones I can dig up. I agree about the Volc Hammer/Lightning Strike thing. I wanted to have some of the burn be sorcery speed to simplify things and just ran out of decent 2cmc spells, so I ended up with that split, but I can't say I'm too happy with it either. I'll see of I just give in and make them all instants and if I can find another sorcery to complement Volcanic Hammer. I'll consider Inferno, I definitely don't want to play something like Wrath of God in the decks because it's a bit too efficient considering the power level I'm aiming for, but at 6cmc that problem kind of solves itself, it damages players which advances the deck's plan A, and it is pretty flavorful. I'll just have to see the fact that it burns the caster as well ends up being detrimental more often than not.
Do you think I should keep a bit of the haste theme in? It's fairly simple, very red, and I remember loving Ball Lightning as a younger player, it represents so much potential damage for just 3 mana! I'm going to be really busy over the next few days so it might take a bit longer than usual, but I'll definitely report back once I've implemented some changes and come up with a new iteration of the deck.
One last question, purely out of curiosity: how is it that you know so many "bad" cards. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions have been spot on for what I'm trying to do, but they're not exactly tournament all stars. I consider myself as having a pretty decent knowledge of the card pool; I could probably rattle off the cost/rules text of most Modern/Legacy staples, but I've found it difficult to come up with the sort of draft-level commons these decks need. Are you a much better gatherer-search ninja than I am, or is there another secret behind this deep knowledge?
Yeah, I knew I had kind of a hole at 5 mana, but thought the 2 copies of Overrun would compensate. I'll try -1 Vulpine Goliath, -1 Rampant Growth for +2 Spined Wurm and see how that works out. For the flier thing, it's something I'll keep in mind as I build the decks, but for now the fliers I was going to put in are 5cmc or more, by which time this deck is curved out with fatties and the game is pretty much over. Once I have the decks built I'll playtest vs fliers and see how it works out in practice, and see if I need to put something back in to compensate this weakness.
As for artifacts/enchantments, I plan to have a few enchantments in some decks (definitely "anthems" in white) but since I'm hoping to teach her as soon as she can do some basic math for creature combat, I want to keep it simple and also avoid "dead" cards in the deck, like drawing your Shatter with no target for it. I plan to introduce this at a later time. One other thing to consider is that we are not native english speakers at home, but my cards are in english. Therefore I want to keep the card functions simple so that she can memorize most of them. She'll learn english as a second language but probably won't be able to read it well enough for another few years. That's part of the reason I liked focusing on keywords too, even if she can't "read" them, she'll eventually recognize the words and know what they mean, which she can't do with more extensive rules text.
I threw together a red deck, but in a few practice games vs. the green deck, it just get curb-stomped really hard. It's a fairly simple design based around haste and burn spells, with goblins for flavor and a Shivan Dragon as an epic finisher. Here's the list as it is now:
I might have just not been lucky, but I got mana screwed a lot, could not deal with the fatties the green deck ramped into, and wasn't fast enough to get in under them. I'm also unsure that Shivan Dragon is epic enough compared to Pelakka Wurm, and I couldn't think of an epic red spell that just wins the game like I had in green with Overrun. I think the shell has potential but it needs some love haha!
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Duress
4 Counterspell
4 Absorb
2 Undermine
2 Dromar's Charm
4 Terror
3 Wrath of God
1 Desolation Angel
8 Island
4 Salt Marsh
4 Underground River
3 Adarkar Wastes
1 Caves of Koilos
3 Coastal Tower
By the way, I know most lists won with only Nether Spirit, but Desolation Angel was in the deck I remember from back then, it's my favorite card, and although cutting the finisher entirely or replacing it with something that doesn't nuke my lands would most likely be correct (you always cast it with kicker obviously, but still), it just wouldn't be as much fun for me without. So I'm open to all suggestions and critiques other than cutting Deso
A lot of the core cards were the same as the other lists (Nether Spirit, Acc Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, Absorb/Undermine), it also ran Dromar's Charm and a few more cards I can't remember. Basically, I'm looking for help filling out the last few slots without destroying the curve/making the deck unplayable and rebuilding the manabase. Below is my best guess for a partial list, based off memory and the linked lists. I'm not sure if I should be adding Wraths, spot removal, discard, more counterspells or other stuff altogether.
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Absorb
2 Undermine
+ 22-25 lands
Thanks!
U/B list (PT Chicago): https://archive.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20010212a
U/W list (proposed update to PT Chicago list): https://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20010219a
Grixis list (Worlds 2001): http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9240&d=253039&f=ST
SGW – Pros:
- When active, provides a steady stream of cards
- Can help dig for sb cards or best cards in match-up
- If it snowballs, highest upside
SGW – Cons:
- When inactive, provides no value at all
- Can get shut off if uncastable card in hand
- Mana intensive: can force choice between activation vs. using manlands, can get shut off every other turn due to mana being tied up casting cards in hand
- Card draw is random – lots of terrible topdecks in the late game
Inventors’ Fair – Pros:
- Lifegain mode almost always on, provides at least marginal value while search mode inactive.
- Lifegain can be pretty valuable to gain advantage in board stall, such as climbing out of “bolt-snap-bolt” range
- Allows searching out best card for situation, usually Plating or Champion
- Can offset Bitterblossom post-board, essentially netting “free” tokens
Inventors’ Fair – Cons:
- Requires “5” mana to get max value
- Land is lost once search mode activated
- If tutored card is answered (countered/destroyed), no more value provided
Academy Ruins – Pros:
- Least mana intensive of the 3 options
- If decent options are available in GY, allows choosing good cards with each activation over random draw
- Can force opponent to answer power cards over and over again, running them out of answers
Academy Ruins – Cons:
- Requires colored mana
- Useless without good options in GY
@ Rezzahan: I'll roll the land count back to 23 then, and throw in a couple New Benalia, like you said it introduces scry but having it be just one card should make the decision much easier to make.
As for the black deck, I kind of know the types of cards I want to include, which are a lot of the things you suggested, since they're the things Black is known for. Discard, creature removal, some graveyard interaction of sorts. The issue (for now) is that I don't have a cohesive idea of how I want to wrap all those things together. I knew before I started building the decks that Red would probably be burn heavy, I wanted First Strike for White, Trample for green and I stumbled onto the ramp aspect pretty early. I'll probably follow a similar pattern to yours for the blue deck, i.e. countermagic, defensive creatures, card draw and a few finishers, but I don't have a clear plan for how I want the black deck to operate yet. I'm saving it for last since I'm still not too sure where I'm going with it, as soon as I have a chance to playtest the White deck and see if it's any good, I'll move on to the Blue deck. I'm unsure about deathtouch though, I might playtest it to see how it goes, but I'm a bit worried it might invalidate some of the other decks too much, especially the Green deck. Trading my 2-3 mana deathtoucher for your 6 mana bomb is rough, on top of Doom Blade or something which will already be doing that. I suppose the fact that a lot of Green's big dudes have trample might balance it out, we'll have to see. Anyhow, thanks again, and Merry Christmas!
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
3 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Venerable Monk
2 Pegasus Charger
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Retribution
3 Pacifism
4 Glorious Anthem
24 Plains
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
3 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Venerable Monk
2 Pegasus Charger
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Retribution
3 Pacifism
4 Glorious Anthem
24 Plains
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
3 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Pyre Charger
3 Falkenrath Reaver
2 Fier Hellhound
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Fire Elemental
1 Shivan Dragon
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Strike
3 Arc Lightning
2 Flame Javelin
1 Inferno
2 Smoldering Crater
So, my choices:
- I decided not to include Goblin Fireslinger (although he might be the most consistent of the 3 options I was considering for pushing through damage) because he broke the burn rule of being able to go after creatures or players
- Goblin Arsonist has been great, he makes blocking awkward because he can often snipe a 1/1 on the way out, or combine with a burn spell to take out bigger creatures
- Similarly, Balloon Brigade being able to gain flying has helped prevent it from being completely irrelevant beyond turn 2 the way Raging Goblin often was, but since it requires spending a little mana, does not feel overpowered
- I cut back on the number of firebreathers but kept a few of the better ones, since they remain relevant late and act as good mana sinks
- I decided to keep Reaver over Piker, although you are absolutely right that it's above average for a red creature of that cost. To expand a bit on the thought process, all the 1/1's from the green deck that Piker was dying to had already generated some value before dying (acceleration from the dorks/Wood Elves, card drawn from Visionary), whereas Piker came into play, attacked once, died immediately and was basically 2 mana wasted most of the time. About Elvish Visionary becoming a Grizzly Bear, it's something I'll keep in mind, although I'm not 100% sure which is actually better in the deck, since it's a beatdown deck and the bear has a more relevant body
- The heavier emphasis on multi-target burn sorceries has been great, it provides flexibility and card advantage and allows the deck to come back from behind a little bit
- I cut the Ball Lightning in favor of 2 Flame Javelin. As you said, BL is basically just a burn spell that doesn't deal a fixed amount, and to help consistency, I figured 4 guaranteed damage might just be better
- I never drew Inferno in the practice games, but given that the deck is faster now and able to push more early damage through, it seems like a good fit, i.e. not too likely to finish yourself off when cast, and able to either win the game or enable a win from a topdecked burn spell later
- Flametongue Kavu is a boss. We never debated this card, I just feel like mentionning it, because I love it, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and just happens to be great
So, barring small tweaks, it looks like I've got 2 pretty functional decks!
Here's the shell I've been working on for a white deck. It doesn't have 60 cards for now (50), and I'm looking to plug some holes in the list before I start testing it. Here's what I have so far:
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
2 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Renewal
4 Glorious Anthem
22 Plains
So, the idea here is a good old white weenie deck. The main keyword ability is First Strike, with a little bit of flying thrown in. I know Protection is a bit complicated, but I just might avoid playing this deck vs the black deck until she can understand, and then just break it down to "it can't be hurt by black magic or creatures" which I think is something a kid should be able to wrap her head around. The pay-offs are Glorious Anthem (could have used Honor of the Pure but I think that probably makes the deck too strong) and 3 Angels at the top of the curve. Inspiring Captain is like a 1-turn Anthem, so I feel it's a nice call back. Also, she may not realize it right away, but Capashen Knight sort of has Firebreathing. All the firebreathers in Red (that I included) only cost 1 to activate, whereas this is 2 mana, so it seems fair to bleed it into white at a reduced power level. Since I'm introducing enchantments in this deck with the Anthems, and because I don't want to give the deck insane good removal in like Path to Exile or Swords, I opted for Pacifism. It could also be Journey to Nowhere, but I think "this creature doesn't want to fight anymore" is easier to explain than the whole exile thing.
The are currently no 3-mana creatures, although Glorious Anthem partly fills the 3-drop slot. Ideally, I think the deck needs a few more creatures, a couple of instant/sorcery spells (didn't have much of an idea where I wanted to go with those), and I've kept 2-3 slots for more land, I just haven't decided what to run along with the Plains.
I'll be eager to hear your thoughts on how the Red deck came along and the White shell I have so far. Have a good day!
- Goblin Piker was really miserable in my early playtesting because he doesn't survive a block by anything. Red finally got its first Grizzly Bear recently in Falkenrath Reaver, so I'll be trying that.
- If I stop the mana curve at 5 (which makes sense for a red deck, to be fair),it means cutting both Shivan Dragon and Inferno, so what's my exciting epic card?
- I like the idea of instant burn spells having one target and sorcery spells having multiple, it helps differentiate them, I'll be exploring that.
- You're right that scry might be a little more complicated to resolve that I'd realized. The deck really needs help with card flow though. Maybe having the multiple target burn spells with help it re-coup enough card advantage to mitigate this.
- I wasn't thrilled with adding Lightning Bolt either, but the deck needed so much help that even adding 2 bolts wasn't enough. I'll try a few Forked Bolt in that slot, but in the end, getting the decks to be more or less balanced is the most important aspect of all this, so if I have to, I'll put Lightning Bolt back in. Hopefully I can balance the decks without it.
- Goblin Fireslinger is something I hadn't thought of. I went for Raging Goblin because it was a "staple" of my terrible aggro decks when I started playing, but I have also found it lacking in actual games. I Gatherer-searched red 1-drops and a few others caught my eye, how do you feel about Goblin Balloon Brigade, Godo's Irregulars and Somberwald Vigilante ?
- Good call on Flame Javelin, I only searched burn spells up to cmc 4 so that never came up!
- I definitely agree that all the burn spells should hit both creatures and players for power/clarity.
Thanks again for all your helpful suggestions!
Ah, that all makes a lot of sense. I used to know more cards from individual sets when I played standard (almost 15 years ago). Now that I don't have time to keep up with Standard and only play Modern and dabble in Legacy, cards that don't crack those formats often fly under my radar. Also, up until I started building these decks, I'd only ever used gatherer to search cards I already knew to check alternate printings and languages mostly. I'm starting to get the hang of the advanced search, but I'm definitely not a black belt in gatherer-fu.
Anyhow, I've overhauled the red deck. It's definitely better than it was, and has won a few games vs. the green deck, but I still don't feel it's quite where it needs to be. Here's the new list for reference:
4 Flamekin Brawler
4 Pyre Charger
2 Dragon Hatchling
2 Fiery Hellhound
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Ball Lightning
1 Shivan Dragon
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
1 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Explosive Impact
1 Inferno
2 Smoldering Crater
So since the deck needed a serious boost in power level, I chose to replace the Volcanic Hammers (which were originally my first choice due to being sorcery) by Lightning Strike. I have 2 extra Lightning Bolts at home too, so I'm trying those out to complement Shock, which is still pretty weak overall (although it might fare better once I build other decks which don't contain enormous creatures). I kept Ball Lightning (even added a 2nd) because I love the flavor and feel of it, but I'm open to cutting it later if it becomes necessary.
I put in a lot a firebreathers, which has made the deck stronger, but also makes it a bit more awkward to decide how to spend your mana (pump vs. develop board/burn spells). I never drew the 1-of Inferno in the few practice games I ran, so I'm unsure as of yet if it's any good. I slotted in Magma Jet at 2cmc because the deck needs help with card flow/selection, so even getting a crappy rate for 2 damage seemed worth it. I also put in 1 Exquisite Firecraft, mostly because it's 3 mana for 4 damage which is a pretty good rate in mono-red. That slot could also be Flames of the Blood Hand. Frankly, both cards have text which is going to be irrelevant a lot of the time which kind of bothers me because it adds useless complexity like 90% of the time, but so far that's where I'm at.
I'm aware that there's a whole at 5 mana on the curve, but since a lot of the creatures are mana sinks I haven't found that to be too problematic thus far. As I said, it's definitely an improvement, but I'd gladly take more suggestions in order to make it a bit better still to bring it closer to 50/50 with the green deck. Also, in trying to make the deck stronger, I've gotten to a point where it contains 0 vanilla creatures. I hope that doesn't end up making it too overwhelming...
As an aside, I've started looking into the white deck (going for a weenies/first strike/glorious anthem theme), hopefully it measures up ok vs the other 2 decks once it's complete. I'll post a list once I have something more concrete put together. Cheers!
Do you think I should keep a bit of the haste theme in? It's fairly simple, very red, and I remember loving Ball Lightning as a younger player, it represents so much potential damage for just 3 mana! I'm going to be really busy over the next few days so it might take a bit longer than usual, but I'll definitely report back once I've implemented some changes and come up with a new iteration of the deck.
One last question, purely out of curiosity: how is it that you know so many "bad" cards. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions have been spot on for what I'm trying to do, but they're not exactly tournament all stars. I consider myself as having a pretty decent knowledge of the card pool; I could probably rattle off the cost/rules text of most Modern/Legacy staples, but I've found it difficult to come up with the sort of draft-level commons these decks need. Are you a much better gatherer-search ninja than I am, or is there another secret behind this deep knowledge?
As for artifacts/enchantments, I plan to have a few enchantments in some decks (definitely "anthems" in white) but since I'm hoping to teach her as soon as she can do some basic math for creature combat, I want to keep it simple and also avoid "dead" cards in the deck, like drawing your Shatter with no target for it. I plan to introduce this at a later time. One other thing to consider is that we are not native english speakers at home, but my cards are in english. Therefore I want to keep the card functions simple so that she can memorize most of them. She'll learn english as a second language but probably won't be able to read it well enough for another few years. That's part of the reason I liked focusing on keywords too, even if she can't "read" them, she'll eventually recognize the words and know what they mean, which she can't do with more extensive rules text.
I threw together a red deck, but in a few practice games vs. the green deck, it just get curb-stomped really hard. It's a fairly simple design based around haste and burn spells, with goblins for flavor and a Shivan Dragon as an epic finisher. Here's the list as it is now:
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piker
2 Fervent Cathar
2 Goblin Chariot
1 Ball Lightning
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Shivan Dragon
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Lightning Strike
3 Arc Lightning
2 Lightning Blast
2 Blaze
2 Smoldering Crater
I might have just not been lucky, but I got mana screwed a lot, could not deal with the fatties the green deck ramped into, and wasn't fast enough to get in under them. I'm also unsure that Shivan Dragon is epic enough compared to Pelakka Wurm, and I couldn't think of an epic red spell that just wins the game like I had in green with Overrun. I think the shell has potential but it needs some love haha!