If you watch the video they describe the change. Basically commanders will work like tokens, first they hit the yard/exile then you immediately choose whether to move them to the command zone as a state-based action. Just enough time for triggers to fire but not enough time to respond with anything.
The reason this is relevant for norin is kind of nuanced. The way norin is worded when he exiled himself you were able to put him in the commandzone and still have him come back. Since the commander rule was a replacement effect that took effect "when he would go to exile" he never actually went to exile, he just went straight to the commandzone. And since the second part of his ability doesn't say anything about returning only from exile he could come back from the commandzone to play at end of turn. This protected him in case someone used a stifle or something to prevent him from returning, you could just re-cast him.
It sounds like this will no longer be the case. If the rules change the way they describe then norin will have to first literally go to exile before you can move him to the commandzone. Which means if you did move him to the commandzone at that point he becomes a new instance since he changed zones. Therefore the game won't be able to return him.
Obviously take this with a huge grain of salt since we don't have the final written version of the new rules yet. And even if it does work the way I'm describing it isn't game over for norin or anything. Just means he might become a bit more vulnerable to being actually stuck in exile in the future.
It's tough to imagine this guy not finding a home given how hard it is for us to find tutoring in mono-red. Cheap, small, goblin, basically a welder and tutors artifacts to boot, that's a lot of value.
On that note, Scrapyard Recombiner is at least worth exploring given its a cheap artifact creature that can tutor but I don't think we have enough constructs to make it worthwhile. It's too bad too because modular works really well with welders and now we'll probably have 3 of them.
Seasoned pyromancer also looks real good. Faithless Looting on a stick is already worth considering and this guy is way better then that since he has the potential to be a divination and can turn unwanted cards or squees into creatures.
Ugin, the Ineffable - Another great option. I wish its +1 was a bit more synergistic with the deck, but it's certainly not bad.
Interesting, when I read the card I actually thought the way at which it gave card advantage was very synergistic for us lol. I mean yea its a bummer that the tokens aren't artifacts or goblins but the fact that gives us cards by way of creatures that trigger all our ETB goodness seems really perfect for us.
Mizzium Tank - Not quite worth it, but a decent bomb.
I know what you mean. I love having Norin crew my Smuggler's copter, any vehicle norin can crew solo is worth consideration for that alone as that is solid value. But I just don't think this one is quite there.
Blast Zone - Super utility, though it doesn't quite fit in for me, I think. I like it a lot, though. May slot in later.
I feel like since its a land that can shoot enchantments (and anything else too) we should play it? I know its so slow and grindy but the cost of slotting in a land is so minimal and in mono-red we have very few answers for enchantments and very few wraths in general that can be used asymmetrically.
Mobilized District - The fact that this might be free makes it a serious consideration, but I think the deck doesn't quite want the effect.
Similar thoughts. I kind of want to play it since I like anything that allows norin to turn into or create creatues and this kind of fits the bill? But probably not useful enough.
Why are people going mental over the elder spell? Am I the only one who thinks that this will see approximately 0% constructed play?
It's extremely narrow and in almost best case scenario it reads "destroy target planeswalker". How often do you see yourself facing more than 1 walker? And even if all stars align and hell freezes and you get to cast it against 2-3 walkers AND it resolves, that means that a) all walkers have been activated at least 1 time b) 1-2 walkers have been activated several times over several turns, gaining their controller an accumulated advantage. Is resolving elder spell really gonna turn the tides at that point?
I agree mostly. I was also scratching my head over here at this reaction since I can't imagine ever putting this card in a constructed deck. I mean maybe sideboard tech in standard if there's a heavily planeswalker deck doing well but that's about it.
With one exception - Pretty sure every superfriends EDH deck will play it. Because they can sacrifice their own walkers to ult another one. In a superfriends deck this is a very playable combo piece that has the added benefit of being a pw plague wind at times.
God-Eternal Bontu looks real solid. 5 mana 5/6 with menace that can turn permanents into cards for us on ETB and can also protect itself if marchesa doesn't
Spark Double is almost the perfect clone for us. Unfortunately it does only copy something you control which is definitely a negative but being able to copy legendaries and entering with a +1/+1 counter i think makes up for it.
Ilharg, the Raze-Boar is probably too janky for us but at least warrants consideration since its aggressively costed, evasive and plays well with etb triggers. Two things of note -
1) His attack trigger does not work well with dethrone which is definitely unfortunate, youd need some other way to give the creatures he sneaks in counters to keep them.
2) His death trigger is a "may" so we can skip it if marchesa is going to bring him back or use it if he really died or got exiled which is nice.
This thing is super good for us. A reanimating (with marchesa) sac outlet that can just be silly big.
Idk it doesn't really have any evasion or anything and the sac'cing occurs at suboptimal times (i.e. can't really do it in response to removal or anything like that). Besides, wouldn't we just play Thunder-Thrash Elder instead? It's the same thing except it gets 3x counters per creature sacrificed...
Also Massacre Girl is pretty neat, it's kind of like that wrath-on-a-stick creature we keep hoping for. I really wish the initial trigger gave -2/-2 instead of -1/-1 though. Not sure its strong enough but might be worth testing? It is also a 4/4 with menace so that's always nice.
Karn is an asymmetric null rod that can also unequip equipment and kill off mana crypts, mox diamonds, everflowing chalices, and all other kinds of common zero drop artifacts. That alone probably makes him a commander staple. Considering we also have an artifact subtheme for him to add value to, id say hes pretty much a shoe in.
Not sure I share your excitement about chandra. Seems ok but in practice i feel like light up the stage probably gives us more card advantage for less. Walkers that give card advantage usually dont last very long, everyone goes after them and 5 damage or so isnt going to deter them in a 40 life game.
I definitely like this guy a lot. He definitely seems like he should get a spot. Solid aggressive creature that also lets us loot any number of dead cards? Sign me up. Could even throw in aggravated assault for a two card combo as an extra wincon.
Any thoughts on whether Gideon would trigger humans like Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant? In my head it makes sense that, since it's your turn when you play him, he enters the battlefield as a human.
No. He’s not entering the battlefield. He’s just gaining types, a power/toughness and some keywords.
The poster is asking if gideon would trigger those abilities the turn you play him, not if it would trigger every time he became a human.
Assuming gideon first enters the battlefield on your turn - yes, he would trigger creature ETB abilities like Champion of the Parish since he would enter the battlefield as a 4/4 human. If you somehow put him into play when it wasn't your turn then he wouldn't though since he wouldn't be a creature then.
And yea, his type-changing every turn does not trigger ETBs since he doesn't re-enter the battlefield, he just changes types while on the battlefield.
FYI - I cut Etali, Primal Storm real quick. I never even drew it in marchesa, I tried to play it in my norin deck and after two games of it sitting dead in my hand it got the boot everywhere. If it can't make it in a mono-red creature-nonsense deck there's no way I should be playing it here.
But now, to the new stuff! Bolas's Citadel is clearly calling my name. It's a 6-drop enchantment so I know we probably shouldn't play it. But given our low-curve I'm very tempted. This deck is always pretty willing to trade life for card advantage and boy is that likely to be a lot of it.
I also like both of the utility lands so far (Emergence Zone and Karn's Bastion) but slots for colorless lands are hard to come by. So they probably won't end up making the cut but we'll see.
Does anyone know what happened to Gaka?
It seems his last post on this thread ist from 2015 (on page 102).
Is the list on the OP still his latest version?
I'm not sure unfortunately but it looks like that is essentially his last post anywhere on MTGS. I'm not sure if retired from magic, has been too busy for it or just moved to another community besides MTGS. I just recently updated my list through Ravnica Allegiance if you want to take a look, it's here on tapped out.
I haven't really been playing much norin in the past two years or so since I used to play it so much before that. But I wanted to try it again so I gave it an update. Haven't gotten a chance to test the updates yet but I will soon.
If you watch the video they describe the change. Basically commanders will work like tokens, first they hit the yard/exile then you immediately choose whether to move them to the command zone as a state-based action. Just enough time for triggers to fire but not enough time to respond with anything.
The reason this is relevant for norin is kind of nuanced. The way norin is worded when he exiled himself you were able to put him in the commandzone and still have him come back. Since the commander rule was a replacement effect that took effect "when he would go to exile" he never actually went to exile, he just went straight to the commandzone. And since the second part of his ability doesn't say anything about returning only from exile he could come back from the commandzone to play at end of turn. This protected him in case someone used a stifle or something to prevent him from returning, you could just re-cast him.
It sounds like this will no longer be the case. If the rules change the way they describe then norin will have to first literally go to exile before you can move him to the commandzone. Which means if you did move him to the commandzone at that point he becomes a new instance since he changed zones. Therefore the game won't be able to return him.
Obviously take this with a huge grain of salt since we don't have the final written version of the new rules yet. And even if it does work the way I'm describing it isn't game over for norin or anything. Just means he might become a bit more vulnerable to being actually stuck in exile in the future.
3rd actually, we've also got Daretti, Scrap Savant.
It's tough to imagine this guy not finding a home given how hard it is for us to find tutoring in mono-red. Cheap, small, goblin, basically a welder and tutors artifacts to boot, that's a lot of value.
On that note, Scrapyard Recombiner is at least worth exploring given its a cheap artifact creature that can tutor but I don't think we have enough constructs to make it worthwhile. It's too bad too because modular works really well with welders and now we'll probably have 3 of them.
Seasoned pyromancer also looks real good. Faithless Looting on a stick is already worth considering and this guy is way better then that since he has the potential to be a divination and can turn unwanted cards or squees into creatures.
Interesting, when I read the card I actually thought the way at which it gave card advantage was very synergistic for us lol. I mean yea its a bummer that the tokens aren't artifacts or goblins but the fact that gives us cards by way of creatures that trigger all our ETB goodness seems really perfect for us.
I know what you mean. I love having Norin crew my Smuggler's copter, any vehicle norin can crew solo is worth consideration for that alone as that is solid value. But I just don't think this one is quite there.
I feel like since its a land that can shoot enchantments (and anything else too) we should play it? I know its so slow and grindy but the cost of slotting in a land is so minimal and in mono-red we have very few answers for enchantments and very few wraths in general that can be used asymmetrically.
Similar thoughts. I kind of want to play it since I like anything that allows norin to turn into or create creatues and this kind of fits the bill? But probably not useful enough.
I agree mostly. I was also scratching my head over here at this reaction since I can't imagine ever putting this card in a constructed deck. I mean maybe sideboard tech in standard if there's a heavily planeswalker deck doing well but that's about it.
With one exception - Pretty sure every superfriends EDH deck will play it. Because they can sacrifice their own walkers to ult another one. In a superfriends deck this is a very playable combo piece that has the added benefit of being a pw plague wind at times.
Spark Double is almost the perfect clone for us. Unfortunately it does only copy something you control which is definitely a negative but being able to copy legendaries and entering with a +1/+1 counter i think makes up for it.
Ilharg, the Raze-Boar is probably too janky for us but at least warrants consideration since its aggressively costed, evasive and plays well with etb triggers. Two things of note -
1) His attack trigger does not work well with dethrone which is definitely unfortunate, youd need some other way to give the creatures he sneaks in counters to keep them.
2) His death trigger is a "may" so we can skip it if marchesa is going to bring him back or use it if he really died or got exiled which is nice.
Idk it doesn't really have any evasion or anything and the sac'cing occurs at suboptimal times (i.e. can't really do it in response to removal or anything like that). Besides, wouldn't we just play Thunder-Thrash Elder instead? It's the same thing except it gets 3x counters per creature sacrificed...
Also Massacre Girl is pretty neat, it's kind of like that wrath-on-a-stick creature we keep hoping for. I really wish the initial trigger gave -2/-2 instead of -1/-1 though. Not sure its strong enough but might be worth testing? It is also a 4/4 with menace so that's always nice.
Agreed. Neheb looks incredible, deginitely going straight in.
Butcher isnt bad i suppose, hadnt really thought about him. Probably passing on him personally but i see your point
Karn is an asymmetric null rod that can also unequip equipment and kill off mana crypts, mox diamonds, everflowing chalices, and all other kinds of common zero drop artifacts. That alone probably makes him a commander staple. Considering we also have an artifact subtheme for him to add value to, id say hes pretty much a shoe in.
Not sure I share your excitement about chandra. Seems ok but in practice i feel like light up the stage probably gives us more card advantage for less. Walkers that give card advantage usually dont last very long, everyone goes after them and 5 damage or so isnt going to deter them in a 40 life game.
I definitely like this guy a lot. He definitely seems like he should get a spot. Solid aggressive creature that also lets us loot any number of dead cards? Sign me up. Could even throw in aggravated assault for a two card combo as an extra wincon.
The poster is asking if gideon would trigger those abilities the turn you play him, not if it would trigger every time he became a human.
Assuming gideon first enters the battlefield on your turn - yes, he would trigger creature ETB abilities like Champion of the Parish since he would enter the battlefield as a 4/4 human. If you somehow put him into play when it wasn't your turn then he wouldn't though since he wouldn't be a creature then.
And yea, his type-changing every turn does not trigger ETBs since he doesn't re-enter the battlefield, he just changes types while on the battlefield.
But now, to the new stuff! Bolas's Citadel is clearly calling my name. It's a 6-drop enchantment so I know we probably shouldn't play it. But given our low-curve I'm very tempted. This deck is always pretty willing to trade life for card advantage and boy is that likely to be a lot of it.
I also like both of the utility lands so far (Emergence Zone and Karn's Bastion) but slots for colorless lands are hard to come by. So they probably won't end up making the cut but we'll see.
I'm not sure unfortunately but it looks like that is essentially his last post anywhere on MTGS. I'm not sure if retired from magic, has been too busy for it or just moved to another community besides MTGS. I just recently updated my list through Ravnica Allegiance if you want to take a look, it's here on tapped out.
I haven't really been playing much norin in the past two years or so since I used to play it so much before that. But I wanted to try it again so I gave it an update. Haven't gotten a chance to test the updates yet but I will soon.