This was the only Affinity list making top 16. Played 3x maindeck Ethersworn Canonist and even the 4th in de sideboard!!
What matchups would this be good against? Is it because of the fast meta?
Similar to the deck list @Kovo posted. That build looks good to me. It's almost a different deck, though. Still affinity, but a different version. I feel like a version with Ensoul Artifact should be involved with Hangarback Walker, but I can respect the all Red Burn version.
Good against the mirror, too. Almost completely different to a GP Singapore list (for example), in how the deck runs as well as better against different decks/meta.
Similar to how Tempered Steel generated a different version of affinity, I think they are on to something with this.
Basically the point of that whole post was kind of elaborating on why I do not like Hangarback Walker in say a GP Singapore style list. Still in response to @JediSolo's question.
I have had the deck for a long time but have not touched it in over a year... I see hangarback in many of the list, is this somthing that is going to be a standard card in most builds?
Not required at all. Has and will still do completely fine without it.
I haven't been a fan of it MD, personally. So far.
MD Spell Pierce because combo is pretty big in my meta. And a surprise counter game 1 seems handy.
maybe so, but 4 is pretty excessive and quite bold
galv blast has won my countless games aiming it at the head and will never be as potentially "dead" as spell pierce will be at times, not to mention having potentially 2-3 copies in your hand at any given time
i would try no more than 2 spell pierce MD, personally. maybe fill the slots with galv blast (2 spell pierce, 2 galv blast)
get the glimmervoids and its a solid list otherwise
Ok guys, I've got a situation from a recent small tournament and I'd like to walk you through and have your opinions:
Part 1)
You're in G3 against Amulet Bloom on the play (regular build). You boarded in: 2x Duress, 1x Torpor Orb, 1xNature's claim, 1x Ancient Grudge. Out went 2 Etched Champions (2 EC 3 MoE split MB), a memnite, an ornithopter and another non-threat card.
You're seeing this opening hand (6 cards):
I wouldn't have boarded out your Etched Champions. I would have boarded out your Steel Overseers.
Glimmervoid, Memnite, Signal Pest, Duress, Torpor Orb, Galvanic Blast
[For now, exclude the question why there is a galv blast still in the deck]
Do you keep the hand? It has got decent disruption T1 to kill almost any fast start/both main combo pieces, have colored mana, got some more hate in torpor orb, but at best a 8turn clock (Pest+Memnite+blast). What is lacking is a big threat. But all threats are still in the deck (4 cranial plating, 3 MoE, 4 Ravager, 2 Steel Overseer). While this usually isn't a good premise, the two hate cards could buy you quite some time and in case of duress, should protect you against T2 kills. Sole glimmervoid isn't too bad because your opponent's deck doesn't run bolt or similar. Keep or no keep?
Part 2:
Additional information: As it's a small tournament and you wanted to try it out, you're running a burn version of affinity with 4x Shrapnel Blast 4x Galvanic Blast for testing purposes [hence, why galv blast is still in]. Number of threats still same as above. So in addition to the threats mentioned, you've got quite some effective burn in the deck to quicken the race/reach/deal a brickload of damage after the incidental one. Keep or no keep?
Doesn't matter as much as removing the Etched Champions you can't draw into now in my opinion. Drawing into a Shrapnel Blast kill is especially slow without a heavy hitter getting a lot of damage in since your going to have to sacrifice your artifacts to deal the 5, and your only hitting for like 1-4 damage per turn here.... too slow. Last time I checked Cranial or Ravager + Etched Champion is potentially a pretty quick clock.
I kept the hand because I figured the protection could be buy enough time to draw something relevant. Plus, I tried a similar hand (with a slow threat, though) the game before and it worked out pretty well. However, I feel as if it is not the right decision to keep it, because after 2 games with these similar hands, I have come to the conclusion that Amulet Bloom is too resilient to be really hampered by discard. It's not as fragile as I expected it to be against me.
May not be hampered by discard? So you think your better off without it? It helps a lot.... He drew well from what your describing.
Basically, he has every answer he could wish for, plus a combo piece, a titan, and a pact to tutor for 2nd combo piece in azusa (although we could/would blast her). Pyroclasm kills everything we have including mana source(s), torpor orb won't slow him down too much with this hand.
What to take?
I was debating heavily between pyroclasm and stirrings. Clasm would kill me, but my chances of winning against the rest of the hand are very slim. I figured I was not able to beat this strong hand anyways and took the acient stirrings to hope for him to get manascrewed and/or get a bounceland/tapped land as 2nd land to be very slow, so I could get something on the field that would survive 'clasm.
I agree with your logic on Stirrings. I would have been torn between Stirrings and Seal of Primoridium, but I would have probably took Stirrings as well for your same reasoning.
Unfortunately, his draws were forest, tolaria west so my plan did not work. Mine were land, land, drum, land, plating. I lost, obviously. Now I am trying to analyze this situation/keep/decision from all angles.
Part 4:
Supposed your hand would be something like the following in a regular affinity build (7cards):
Glimmervoid, Memnite, Duress, Torpor Orb, Ravager, Signal Pest, Darksteel Citadel
Keep? If yes, how do you play it? Duress first, Memnite/Pest/Citadel first?
I would keep it. Since they are playing a combo deck, in this case I would probably open with Duress regardless if I were on the play or draw to try and slow them down and/or see what they are on. They also could have kept a risky hand and Duress can be game breaking right here if they did.
On a side note, if you can add Blood Moon to your sideboard it would help your game against Amulet Bloom a lot.
Has anyone ever tried out Buried Ruin or Academy Ruins as our 17th land?
I want to try that out, as the more resilience can be quite good against jund and grixies controle.
i would suggest control your play. do not play out everything, especially ethed champion. be wary of turn 4 supreme verdict, damnation or even a shatterstorm. best bet is bring in thoughtseize and spell pierce. control your tempo in such match up. man land is your best friend here. it is not about the list but your play style that determine your outcome. in the past, there is a saying of playing with a turn 4 wrath mindset when playing aggro. the same is true today. do not be deceived that by going all out you can win the game. sometime you need to hold back. not every deck play shatterstorm or stony silence in their sideboard, there are always incidental hate. look out for tell tale sign that a wrath might be eminent. i think that comes from experience and your knowledge of the deck your opponent is playing. play in a way that is aggressive but not over extent. often our clock is faster than them, therefore don't be greedy to rush. the more you rush, the easier for you to make mistake or fall into a trap. i have fall into those trap myself before and still do at times. play with caution. the game is more complicated than just simply racing, especially against seasoned or experienced player. learn to play around the hate. see the colour tey are playing, what sort of hate that can commonly come fro there. these will give you clue to prepare yourself mentally what to expect. you need to do your homework of reading up on hates that a particular match-up will most likely bring against you. once you recognised that, it is most easier for you to predict and sequence your play.
example below
merfolk- hurkly's recall, if have splash white, might have stony silence.
grixis- pyroclasm, anger of god, kolaghan's command, shatterstorm, shattering spree, hurkyl's recall depending on their version whether control or tempo.
jund- ancient grudge, anger of god, shatterstorm, kolaghan's command, creeping corrosion, damnation, night of soul betrayal, golgari's charm
abzan- stony silence, zealous persecution, damnation, night of soul betrayal, fracturing gust
UW- kataki, stony silence, supreme verdict
naya burn, deflecting palm, destructive revelry
infect, nature's claim, spellskite, hurkyl's recall
abzan coco- quasali pridemage, stony silence, spellskite, kataki
GR tron- nature's claim, pyroclasm, anger of god, spellskite
lantern prison- welding jar, spellskite, ancient grudge, hurkyl's recall
above are just some example to recognise the sort of hate you might face. there are more, but learning to recognise threat will help you in your sideboard strategy.
naya burn can also run stony silence, didn't expect it either but had it happen against me last week
I play with 4 galvanics, a 3/2 split MoE/EC, having 2 EC my SB for heavy removal or creature matchups. Was expecting lot of scapeshift, abzan combo and twin.
Won against Jund, b/c EC in both games
Won against Grixis Twin coz of Ghirapur Aether Grid in game 2/3
Won against Burn, due to MoE. He just couldnt keep up.
Lost the first round to B/W tokens (0-2). I found this a really hard MU. Their tokens are most of the time 2/2 flying vigilance. Game 1 in he Zealous Persecution my board leaving an Orni and game 2 he had a T2 Stony Silence. No contest. I boarded in Aether Grid and Whipflare but still he just seemed to steamroll all over me. Felt a bit powerless in this MU. Is this just a bad MU or is there some tech or play I'm unaware off?
aether grid against grixis twin? can't say i recommend that.... why? doesn't kill anything straight up except snapcaster
b/w tokens is a tough match-up, always has been for sure. i was pretty happy when it fell off the map for a little bit. aether grid seems like it should be nice against it, but still tough. not too popular thankfully.
Steelshaper's gifts kinda interesting. One 1 white mana isn't bad, and easily accomplished. It's almost like running extra cranial platings in the deck
It can't be that great if no one's really used it, right? I'll playtest it on tapped out.
Also, I actually got to play 2 sets of games against a friend, the 3/2 split worked out surprisingly well, he had lingering souls out and it didn't even matter when I had 2 masters out. I was only running the 3/1 split before yesterday, but having just 1 more trump card feels great, and helps out statistically on having it in the opening hand or in the next 3 draws. Glad I took out the welding jar and put in another must answer card
steelshaper's gift works well, it used to be more popular many years ago
it's a little lower on the priority list of spells we should run now with the speed of modern currently, and needing a way to interact with splinter twin, and other creature based combo decks, pod before it was banned, infect
mostly grixis twin these days, as that match-up is horrid
spell pierce and apostle's blessing have gotten more popular around here, recently
@baskingmongrel, After you mentioned about the 90% grixis metagame at your side, I understand why the master of etherium is good as there are little to no blockers which allow you to hit heavy with MoE. I guess the reason it is not doing well over my side is because my meta is more creature base which impede my MoE from dealing much damage. I might try the version that this player adopt next week and see whether do I like it. Currently I am still using the GP Singapore champion version which works very well with little change in SB. After the testing, I might post on my sentiment if it goes well. Thanks for the food for thoughts.
well, there are plenty of delver's and tarmogoyf's to block his master. he only runs two, currently.
we look forward to hearing a report from you, charles. i will do the same
@baskingmongrel, have you watch this player play? does he mulligan often? what sort of hand does he usually keep? I did thought of that version but afraid to try it as the curve is quite high and I am not comfortable mulligan to 4 or 5 just for an ok hand. I do want to see his list and sideboard. any particular style of play he adopt? I have tried the more clunky build against the more traditional list and find it lose due to tempo and such, therefore a bit sceptical about the viability and such.
the thing is, with the amount of 3 drops he runs (i now run 3/2 split and may also increase to 4/2) he rarely has to mulligan as long as he has one champ/master in the hand and one land and one mox and/or drum. but if he doesn't have one of those 3 drops, he will mulligan down to 5 without a blink... and to great success. I've seen him mulligan to 5 then proceed to kill turn 3, with a master + cranial turn two.... then vault skirge + cranial turn three... if you can get an early swing in with master, they are walking on thin ice, if they take two swings they are done. all of this isn't even considering a champ getting dropped.
he has mentioned (as i have in this thread) that our meta is seriously 90% grixis (all versions, twin, delver and control but basically kolaghan command is very prevalent) and GBx (mostly jund and junk).... so more kolaghan command, abrupt decay, terminate and path to exile...
this is why he chose 4 champ.... if it weren't so much like this he would prefer to run 3-4 master. but as long as kolaghan command is around i dont think that will be possible. 6 3 drops is probably as far as you can push it with the 16 lands, but hell that may not be true... people are afraid to test different builds and play the same copy-paste decklists. many are new players and dont know any better, and dont know the history of affinity and the various builds and styles it has gone through over the many, many years.
the curve isn't really any higher and it still tops out at just 3... your just increasing your chances of seeing one of them.
On the subject of 17 lands, I've never been:
A: more mana flooded
B: had to mulligan more hands
than with 16 lands... its been ran for years and years, and with great, great success with 16 lands. even before mox opal was printed...!
on the subject of "mulliganing and keepable hands, tempo":
just like i was telling spseigel, what does it matter if your up in tempo or you curve out well or explosive if your just dropping springleaf drums, steel overseer, memnite and a signal pest? your too slow like this, you could get combo'd out by a variety of decks or kolaghan commanded, electrolyzed, you haven't put them in critical life range without either of these guys most likely... you need to at least represent death very soon.... a dropped master or champ will do this. if they do not have an immediate answer to either they will be dead very soon, if they even have an answer or play a deck that wants to interact with our creatures. this is modern were talking about here.... not standard. i can't justify running less than 4 of these 3 drops and it makes me cringe when i see guys running 3, boggles my mind when they do well. but hey, again, many ways to pilot the deck.
p.s. lets not forget master pumps your whole team
his build mostly benefits game one.... which is the most valuable to us. because of the amount of sb tech for our deck, i believe the deck should be geared towards winning game one as much as you possibly can.... and steel overseers, spellskites, and hangarback walkers are not good in that regard.... which he runs none of. he runs the 6 3 drops, the 8 spells and then its pretty much stock. he does run hangarback walker in the sideboard, it has been ok but unsure if it is worth it yet or not. spellskite is obviously ran in the board and is obviously amazing.
the logic behind the more "clunky build", is a better win % game one... which in my opinion is right. he did sacrifice some tempo, your right, but bottom line is i think he wins more game one's. i dont think it really matters what list your running anymore, with the amount of tech against our deck games 2 and 3 were so behind that if we didn't get game one, its not looking good.
thank decks running kollaghan's command combined with snapcaster mage.... insane... and then they get even stronger against us after SB
I do not see any main deck Ethersworn Canonist?
Hey man,
you seem to straight up side out -2 Memnite in every match-up, win or lose?
are you not a fan of turn 2 bomb drop on the play? It's one of the main reason to run Blood Moon
i sometimes do this on the draw, but i find more often then not, if i am on the play, i want max explosiveness/speed....
i've seen both sides of the argument (its the worst card in the deck, etc.) but what is your reasoning?
thank you
Similar to the deck list @Kovo posted. That build looks good to me. It's almost a different deck, though. Still affinity, but a different version. I feel like a version with Ensoul Artifact should be involved with Hangarback Walker, but I can respect the all Red Burn version.
Good against the mirror, too. Almost completely different to a GP Singapore list (for example), in how the deck runs as well as better against different decks/meta.
Similar to how Tempered Steel generated a different version of affinity, I think they are on to something with this.
Basically the point of that whole post was kind of elaborating on why I do not like Hangarback Walker in say a GP Singapore style list. Still in response to @JediSolo's question.
Not required at all. Has and will still do completely fine without it.
I haven't been a fan of it MD, personally. So far.
maybe so, but 4 is pretty excessive and quite bold
galv blast has won my countless games aiming it at the head and will never be as potentially "dead" as spell pierce will be at times, not to mention having potentially 2-3 copies in your hand at any given time
i would try no more than 2 spell pierce MD, personally. maybe fill the slots with galv blast (2 spell pierce, 2 galv blast)
get the glimmervoids and its a solid list otherwise
I wouldn't have boarded out your Etched Champions. I would have boarded out your Steel Overseers.
That hand is keepable in my opinion.
Doesn't matter as much as removing the Etched Champions you can't draw into now in my opinion. Drawing into a Shrapnel Blast kill is especially slow without a heavy hitter getting a lot of damage in since your going to have to sacrifice your artifacts to deal the 5, and your only hitting for like 1-4 damage per turn here.... too slow. Last time I checked Cranial or Ravager + Etched Champion is potentially a pretty quick clock.
May not be hampered by discard? So you think your better off without it? It helps a lot.... He drew well from what your describing.
I agree with your logic on Stirrings. I would have been torn between Stirrings and Seal of Primoridium, but I would have probably took Stirrings as well for your same reasoning.
I would keep it. Since they are playing a combo deck, in this case I would probably open with Duress regardless if I were on the play or draw to try and slow them down and/or see what they are on. They also could have kept a risky hand and Duress can be game breaking right here if they did.
On a side note, if you can add Blood Moon to your sideboard it would help your game against Amulet Bloom a lot.
I didn't find Ethersworn Canonist good against Burn.
Definitely Storm and Infect, IDK that I would bring it in against Snapcaster but does hurt it
i like the idea
naya burn can also run stony silence, didn't expect it either but had it happen against me last week
lantern prison - welding jar is hate against us ?
aether grid against grixis twin? can't say i recommend that.... why? doesn't kill anything straight up except snapcaster
b/w tokens is a tough match-up, always has been for sure. i was pretty happy when it fell off the map for a little bit. aether grid seems like it should be nice against it, but still tough. not too popular thankfully.
steelshaper's gift works well, it used to be more popular many years ago
it's a little lower on the priority list of spells we should run now with the speed of modern currently, and needing a way to interact with splinter twin, and other creature based combo decks, pod before it was banned, infect
mostly grixis twin these days, as that match-up is horrid
spell pierce and apostle's blessing have gotten more popular around here, recently
well, there are plenty of delver's and tarmogoyf's to block his master. he only runs two, currently.
we look forward to hearing a report from you, charles. i will do the same
the thing is, with the amount of 3 drops he runs (i now run 3/2 split and may also increase to 4/2) he rarely has to mulligan as long as he has one champ/master in the hand and one land and one mox and/or drum. but if he doesn't have one of those 3 drops, he will mulligan down to 5 without a blink... and to great success. I've seen him mulligan to 5 then proceed to kill turn 3, with a master + cranial turn two.... then vault skirge + cranial turn three... if you can get an early swing in with master, they are walking on thin ice, if they take two swings they are done. all of this isn't even considering a champ getting dropped.
he has mentioned (as i have in this thread) that our meta is seriously 90% grixis (all versions, twin, delver and control but basically kolaghan command is very prevalent) and GBx (mostly jund and junk).... so more kolaghan command, abrupt decay, terminate and path to exile...
this is why he chose 4 champ.... if it weren't so much like this he would prefer to run 3-4 master. but as long as kolaghan command is around i dont think that will be possible. 6 3 drops is probably as far as you can push it with the 16 lands, but hell that may not be true... people are afraid to test different builds and play the same copy-paste decklists. many are new players and dont know any better, and dont know the history of affinity and the various builds and styles it has gone through over the many, many years.
the curve isn't really any higher and it still tops out at just 3... your just increasing your chances of seeing one of them.
On the subject of 17 lands, I've never been:
A: more mana flooded
B: had to mulligan more hands
than with 16 lands... its been ran for years and years, and with great, great success with 16 lands. even before mox opal was printed...!
on the subject of "mulliganing and keepable hands, tempo":
just like i was telling spseigel, what does it matter if your up in tempo or you curve out well or explosive if your just dropping springleaf drums, steel overseer, memnite and a signal pest? your too slow like this, you could get combo'd out by a variety of decks or kolaghan commanded, electrolyzed, you haven't put them in critical life range without either of these guys most likely... you need to at least represent death very soon.... a dropped master or champ will do this. if they do not have an immediate answer to either they will be dead very soon, if they even have an answer or play a deck that wants to interact with our creatures. this is modern were talking about here.... not standard. i can't justify running less than 4 of these 3 drops and it makes me cringe when i see guys running 3, boggles my mind when they do well. but hey, again, many ways to pilot the deck.
p.s. lets not forget master pumps your whole team
his build mostly benefits game one.... which is the most valuable to us. because of the amount of sb tech for our deck, i believe the deck should be geared towards winning game one as much as you possibly can.... and steel overseers, spellskites, and hangarback walkers are not good in that regard.... which he runs none of. he runs the 6 3 drops, the 8 spells and then its pretty much stock. he does run hangarback walker in the sideboard, it has been ok but unsure if it is worth it yet or not. spellskite is obviously ran in the board and is obviously amazing.
the logic behind the more "clunky build", is a better win % game one... which in my opinion is right. he did sacrifice some tempo, your right, but bottom line is i think he wins more game one's. i dont think it really matters what list your running anymore, with the amount of tech against our deck games 2 and 3 were so behind that if we didn't get game one, its not looking good.
thank decks running kollaghan's command combined with snapcaster mage.... insane... and then they get even stronger against us after SB
i know it was you, i must have just forgot to include your name in the post
it was a great recommendation