Aren't you taking a little bit too much pain from your thoughtseizes, bobs, and lands?
Yes probably, but moreso the lands than anything else. You can gain some life from rhino and you can board all the thoughtseizes out against aggressive decks. I often combo people out when really low on life (which is still possible as long as they are hurt/you already have enough fetches in your graveyard). In my testing so far if Dark Confidant is actually losing you life then you usually have enough cards to not die, and he often just wastes a removal spell that they would use to kill your bigger/combo creatures or burn you out.
I decided I wanted to play an Abzan midrange deck, but being too cheap to get goyfs and lilianas (and everyone saying not having them makes the deck unplayable) I've decided to just have some fun and jam the Knightfall combo into an Abzan midrange list instead of the goyfs and lilianas.
I'm definitely winning more than I'm losing but I've only been playing in Tournament Practice on MTGO so I don't know how much that matters.
It's surprising how many games you just kill your opponent out of nowhere, and you can usually outvalue your opponent in grindy games much like a real abzan midrange deck can.
The retreat to coralhelms obvious aren't great if you don't have a knight, but getting a double scry every time you draw a fetch land (or the potential to tap an attacker/blocker) is actually pretty sweet.
The deck is a little overloaded with 3 drops and underloaded with 2 drops, so I'm running some anticipates to help search for the combo pieces and give you something to do on turn 2 if you don't have a dark confidant, scavenging ooze, or abrupt decay target.
The mana is pretty sketchy (maybe somebody else knows how to build manabases better), but the goal is to get a Godless Shrine and a Breeding Pool and then you can cast the green-white and the green-black spells (and geist if you boarded them in).
I haven't run into any blood moon decks yet (probably really bad for me), but in matches where I can't afford to have as sketchy mana I usually have enough stuff in my sideboard to bring in to just cut all of the blue cards from the deck.
Zendikar's Roil is something I'm testing against BGx matchups; it probably sucks.
I liked send to sleep when I first saw it and it has tested very well. Lightning bolt is good but it's often dead against Tasigurs, Goyfs and Anglers. Send to sleep is a crazy amount of delay potential against creature decks. Especially in conjunction with snapcaster.
Is it just me or does this list not have any Valakuts in it (it's missing two cards and should have two)? I randomly copied your list to play it against my friends on LackeyCCG, didn't notice it only had 58 cards, would have won, then realize there are no Valakuts in the deck LOL.
I'm really liking UWR twin so far. It's super fun. This is the list I'm currently running (I also posted this in the UWR Twin thread but it seems inactive and people are talking about the white splash here):
The tapping of blockers with exarch/pestermite to allow geist to attack in happens constantly. Path seems very good against all the goyfs, rhinos, and exarchs running around. My sideboard could probably make more use of white as well, but I absolutely love both Kor Firewalkers and Wear // Tears.
I don't have Scalding Tarns so the manabase is a little weird, but nothing else with the list is budget. I really like the Kor Firewalkers in the sideboard because I hate losing to burn. I'm wondering if any Cryptic Commands would be good. It seems like they cost too much mana for what I'm trying to do (would need 8 mana if wanted to use it to protect combo so it needs to be good enough just doing other things), but I see a lot of twin decks run them so I'm not sure.
I personally would probably run cryptic command rather than Venser, and Jeff Hoogland said his list isn't playing cryptic command because it's more of an aggro deck than a control one. I don't know if a 2/2 for 4 is more aggressive, considering cryptic can be used to tap down blockers as well as all the other things it does. It could be awesome though I don't know.
I was playing UWR delver for awhile, and then I was playing UWR control for awhile, and now I've decided to take what I liked about the two decks and cram them together into some kind of UWR midrange pile of cards:
It's fairly sketchy (no 1/2 mana counters, just jammed 3 treasure cruise in) but super fun to play. I'm just playing Tournament Practice on MTGO but it's working fairly well.
I was thinking about trying out Shaun McLaren's Kiki Control deck -- is it still relatively up to date? I haven't seen many control decks recently going for this combo finish backup and I'm wondering if/why it has gone out of style.
Is there a any particular reason we are playing fabricate over reshape, besides reshape costing UU (that doesn't seem to be a problem most times..)
It only costs one mana more to fabricate and play rather than paying x. Having to sacrifice an artifact is terrible especially if you're wiping the board with ostone. I could be missing something but it seems so much worse.
Looks like a great list. I have never played Young Pyromancer in my list, but I am really happy to see Geist in your list. I think he is a must in a Jeskai Tempo build.
I love seeing the one of Perilous Research. I am a huge fan of fun of's. Very solid list. My main suggestion would be remove an electrolyze, a negate, and possibly the pillar from the sideboard and add something that helps a more grindy matchup like batterskull or a sword and also adding Engineered Explosives. Engineered Explosives is an amazing card in a lot of our bad matchups. Other than that, the list looks great! Let us know how your testing/tourney results go. Thanks for posting.
Thanks! Yea I absolutely love perilous research and was running 2 before treasure cruise came out. It might not be that good, but it's super fun to sacrifice the pyromancer token it generated or the geist token after damage or a land after seeing in the two cards you drew that you got more lands than you need.
Geist is pretty awesome. I'm somewhat contemplating having 3 rather than 2 but I essentially never want to see more than one so I don't know if that would be good.
Yea I think I will try out engineered explosives that seems pretty cool. In my pure UR list I was never really a fan of batterskull or sword of fire and ice but it's possible I just didn't play in enough matchups where they were good.
I really like lighting Helixs, is it worth the little splash of white or nah
Hmm I don't know. That sounds interesting and it would also be cool to have access to Boros Charm as burn and also protection against abrupt decay or pyroclasm. There is a WUR delver topic in this forum but it seems like they generally run geist and/or steppe lynx and I don't think I'd want to play either of those.
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
2x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
Creature (15)
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
4x Stoneforge Mystic
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
2x Celestial Purge
1x Counterflux
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Spellskite
2x Spreading Seas
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Wear / Tear
1x Wrath of God
So far I've had pretty good results in MTGO 2-Player Queue and I will continue to test.
Yes probably, but moreso the lands than anything else. You can gain some life from rhino and you can board all the thoughtseizes out against aggressive decks. I often combo people out when really low on life (which is still possible as long as they are hurt/you already have enough fetches in your graveyard). In my testing so far if Dark Confidant is actually losing you life then you usually have enough cards to not die, and he often just wastes a removal spell that they would use to kill your bigger/combo creatures or burn you out.
I'm definitely winning more than I'm losing but I've only been playing in Tournament Practice on MTGO so I don't know how much that matters.
It's surprising how many games you just kill your opponent out of nowhere, and you can usually outvalue your opponent in grindy games much like a real abzan midrange deck can.
The retreat to coralhelms obvious aren't great if you don't have a knight, but getting a double scry every time you draw a fetch land (or the potential to tap an attacker/blocker) is actually pretty sweet.
The deck is a little overloaded with 3 drops and underloaded with 2 drops, so I'm running some anticipates to help search for the combo pieces and give you something to do on turn 2 if you don't have a dark confidant, scavenging ooze, or abrupt decay target.
The mana is pretty sketchy (maybe somebody else knows how to build manabases better), but the goal is to get a Godless Shrine and a Breeding Pool and then you can cast the green-white and the green-black spells (and geist if you boarded them in).
I haven't run into any blood moon decks yet (probably really bad for me), but in matches where I can't afford to have as sketchy mana I usually have enough stuff in my sideboard to bring in to just cut all of the blue cards from the deck.
Here is the list I'm currently running:
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Thoughtseize
Creature (14)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
Instant (9)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Anticipate
4x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Negate
2x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Wrath of God
Is it just me or does this list not have any Valakuts in it (it's missing two cards and should have two)? I randomly copied your list to play it against my friends on LackeyCCG, didn't notice it only had 58 cards, would have won, then realize there are no Valakuts in the deck LOL.
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam Vents
1 Seachrome Coast
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
3 Splinter Twin
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Batterskull
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Lightning Helix
3 Wear // Tear
1 Spellskite
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Splinter Twin
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Spell Snare
The tapping of blockers with exarch/pestermite to allow geist to attack in happens constantly. Path seems very good against all the goyfs, rhinos, and exarchs running around. My sideboard could probably make more use of white as well, but I absolutely love both Kor Firewalkers and Wear // Tears.
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam Vents
1 Seachrome Coast
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
3 Splinter Twin
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Batterskull
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Lightning Helix
3 Wear // Tear
1 Spellskite
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Splinter Twin
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Spell Snare
I don't have Scalding Tarns so the manabase is a little weird, but nothing else with the list is budget. I really like the Kor Firewalkers in the sideboard because I hate losing to burn. I'm wondering if any Cryptic Commands would be good. It seems like they cost too much mana for what I'm trying to do (would need 8 mana if wanted to use it to protect combo so it needs to be good enough just doing other things), but I see a lot of twin decks run them so I'm not sure.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Blade Splicer
4 Restoration Angel
NONCREATURE SPELLS (21):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
4 Path to Exile
3 Cryptic Command
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Perilous Research
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Negate
2 Counterflux
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Electrolyze
2 Wear // Tear
1 Shattering Spree
2 Spell Snare
2 Celestial Purge
It's fairly sketchy (no 1/2 mana counters, just jammed 3 treasure cruise in) but super fun to play. I'm just playing Tournament Practice on MTGO but it's working fairly well.
For reference:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28671_Kiki-Control-in-Modern.html
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Wall of Omens
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Celestial Purge
2 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Wrath of God
It only costs one mana more to fabricate and play rather than paying x. Having to sacrifice an artifact is terrible especially if you're wiping the board with ostone. I could be missing something but it seems so much worse.
Thanks! Yea I absolutely love perilous research and was running 2 before treasure cruise came out. It might not be that good, but it's super fun to sacrifice the pyromancer token it generated or the geist token after damage or a land after seeing in the two cards you drew that you got more lands than you need.
Geist is pretty awesome. I'm somewhat contemplating having 3 rather than 2 but I essentially never want to see more than one so I don't know if that would be good.
Yea I think I will try out engineered explosives that seems pretty cool. In my pure UR list I was never really a fan of batterskull or sword of fire and ice but it's possible I just didn't play in enough matchups where they were good.
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Steam Vents
CREATURES (14):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Boros Charm
2 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Remand
1 Negate
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Perilous Research
1 Negate
3 Electrolyze
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Counterflux
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Wear // Tear
1 Path to Exile
1 Shattering Spree
2 Spell Snare
Hmm I don't know. That sounds interesting and it would also be cool to have access to Boros Charm as burn and also protection against abrupt decay or pyroclasm. There is a WUR delver topic in this forum but it seems like they generally run geist and/or steppe lynx and I don't think I'd want to play either of those.