Went Selesnya and then 4-0. The pool didn't feel overwhelming but was just so efficient, solid creatures + boosts + removal, that I rolled through, not even losing a game. The lifegain was real, as I ended 3 or 4 games with over 30 life (1 mana 1/1 birds with lifelink are fun and every 1/1 token gains life.). I had a good time of course. It reminded me of M19 in that there didn't feel like there were tons of bombs that finished games, but that synergy and efficiency pulled through over flashy.
Smaller blue creatures (Merfolk, Wizards) just aren't good enough to compete given their abilities and CMC - it seems like blue needs better 1 CMC drops - in order to be viable in Modern or Legacy. Perhaps this is why Blue is generally regulated to a support or splash color for card draw for the most part?
I suggest looking at some Modern and Legacy blue decks, to see what creatures are considered 'viable' in those formats. While blue rarely gets efficient, large creatures, they do occasionally get efficient creatures, and small does not mean the creature can't compete.
I agree, but creatures like Snapcaster (which I love), Phantasmal Image (like it too), Delver of Secrets (Also like) are very situational and require the right spell to be in your graveyard already (Snapcaster), for you to have lots of spells in your deck (Delver) or to have a significantly impactful creature already on the board. These are impactful and can compete in the right situations, but I'm not sure about their efficiency otherwise.
To me this is like saying that Tarmogoyf isn't strong because you need specific things to be in graveyards, or Dark Confidant isn't strong because you need to be able to draw lower costed cards not to kill yourself, or Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer aren't strong because because you need to have artifacts/artifact creatures on the board, or Thalia's Lieutenant is not strong because you need to have other humans on board or to play them afterwards.
Most of the time strength is relative to deck building, cards available, and match up. There are tons of strong cards that are not "strong" in and of themselves. How efficient are the above mentioned cards on their own? But in the right decks they are great. The blue creatures talked about are just in that category.
So, with the new B/G cards spoiled so far, people are thinking Jund and such are on their way back. How would that set us in the meta? Seems like it would be good for us.
Also for anyone who might be interested there is a rather large (270+) Facebook group for BW Tokens that I know at least a handful of people from here are active in.
How have the 1x Cast Down and 1x Secure the Wastes felt to you?
Hello People
I've been playing a bit with a more aggressive RTA version of the deck.
Went 3-1 with one bye at FNM. Lost to Bant spirits - seems like an aweful matchup, won against Humans and Mardu Pyromancer.
The deck always ends up grinding it out. The aggressive slant of the deck doesn't seem to bring much of a payoff really.
So i thought about how to make a grindy RTA version; one reason is so i dont have to buy bitterblossom or Liliana, the other is to see if it works.
I've come up with this list.
My experience with the former RTA version was:
Flipping LL is nice if you have something to spend the mana on.
Ramping with PtE is a very real thing.
Winbrisk needs some big payoffs.
There's a lot of creature heavy decks running around, so instant blockers - RTA - are nice and so are maindeck sweepers - Settle.
I would love som feedback, so please comment
Hey, there!
I think the general consensus has been that we usually want to avoid having more than 2-3 lands that unconditionally enter the battlefield tapped and then the next part of that is that Windbrisk Heights has generally been considered not worth it, these days. That may have been a reason for adding the Ethspeths but a 6 drop can be a hard pill to drop in modern if you don't have real ramp (LL is not always there). Now, you may have already practiced a ton with it and love it, but I would suggest dropping the elspeths as too expensive in most capacities. If you want the walkers I would up the 4 drops, maybe a Sorin, lord of innistrad.
Then, without Eslpeth, you can go down to 24 lands very safely and drop the 2x Windbrisk Heights and throw in another fetch.
You probably want to get up to the 4th Intangible Virtue, as it is one of the strongest cards in our deck.
Also, without the double black count of liliana or the value of bitterblossom, if you want to be grindier, good ol' spectral procession is one of the best value-per-cost token producers we can run.
So, if I gave you suggestions for direct changes it would be:
- 2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
- 2x Windbrisk Heights
+ 1x Windswept Heath
+ 1x Intangible Virtue
+ 2x Spectral Procession
You may feel that losing Elspeth and Heights makes you weaker in the late game, but there are many times where in the mid to late game we still don't have 6 mana and just need something usable or an untapped land. I think you can still be grindy enough while also being more consistent.
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
That's quite a reckless burn list. I can tell you I'd never run Blood moon or claim // fame as it's heavily discouraged in a "true" burn list. what you describe sounds a lot more like a rakdos aggro, which is kinda like burn with a bigger focus on creatures. Nitpicking aside, nice job on th rematch
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
Yeah, it could have been closer to a Rakdos aggro, but other than the mentioned cards, everything else seemed normal stock burn. I am glad teh luck was on my side in the rematch (at least in 1 extra game).
That would be a perfect answer to them for sure. I may see about fitting that in the side again. All I would have had against them this time would have been the 2 board wipes (with wrath being weak against totem armor), the disenchants, and the blessed alliances (Hoping they didn't draw a leyline.). I am rather glad that I didn't have to actually play him for prizes. I had also had an anguished unmaking in the side for a while that I had taken out but may bring back with all of the enchantment and artifacts running around.
I didn't use Liliana enough to get much of a feel for her. I have generally run the 2/2 Sorin/Gideon split and liked that, but this was the first time running Liliana.
No Spectrals was interesting but not a big issue on token generating, generally. I was actually happy not to have them that day as I faced Blood Moon or Land Destruction in 4 out of 6 real matches, and it would have been hard to cast it.
Didn't really see much of Start // Finish either, so not much to write home about. I do love the instant speed of it though against decks that I may need to remove a creature on their turn but also need to create a board presence if I don't.
The Bitterblossoms seemed fine. I saw them a decent bit still, but I faced enough aggro/combo decks that they didn't matter much in most matches and I sided them out a decent bit. If it was a heavy control/midrange meta, I would probably go up to 4.
I didn't blow up any lands all night with my lands as none of the decks I played against really cared about it, except Ponza and we didn't draw destruction lands and mana enchantments at the same time. I dodged the Tron player and saw no one with man lands. They were more useful as mana for me and the colorless didn't seem to hurt (and they made just as good mountains as any of my other non basics. ) So, they seemed fine. Better to have and not need, I suppose.
The sideboard seemed solid for what I faced. My friends had told me beforehand that there was all kinds of things running around at the LGS but a lot of aggro and combo stuff, so I adjusted accordingly. I dropped 3x stony silence for the 3x damping sphere (and it paid off) and I think I switched out 2x Pithing needle for the 2x blessed alliance (which seemed a solid choice for the night). I felt like I usually had the cards I needed in the sideboard, it was just a matter of drawing them, like usual. As MisterMuffin21 mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring back a runed halo or 2 with some of those decks running around.
Played a Modern FNM on Friday for probably the first time in 4-5 months (I felt in round 3 with a "Have you even played before?" moment told below). Used a version based pretty heavily off diateone's list. Had about 18 people playing.
Round 1: 2-1 against Kiln Fiend Bloo deck.
Game 1 I lost on turn 3 on the play to 26 damage to the face.
Games 2 and 3 I had the removal and then the creatures to turn it tables.
In: 3x Damping Sphere
Out: 3x Bitterblossom
1-0
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
1-1
Round 3: 2-1 against a Balance combo deck
Game 1 he drew 2 balance and I was able to play around the rest and keep enough pressure on to get it.
Game 2 I sided out 4 cards, shuffled up, drew my hand, and realized that I had accidentally shuffled my entire sideboard into my deck instead of setting the other ones to the side... I drew 3 useless cards that game and not surprising lost.
Game 3 I just stayed ahead of him again.
Hand control and Planeswalkers were great here.
In: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Disenchant
Out: 3x Fatal Push, 1x Collective Brutality
2-1
Round 4: 2-1 against Storm.
Game 1 I never drew instant speed removal and got stormed.
Games 2-3 I dropped Damping Sphere before he could find his way, and had both instant speed removal (used some on his creatures also) and a surgical ready both times.
The sideboard is so good here.
In: 3x Damping Sphere, 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 3x Bitterblossom, 2x Start // finish, 2x Legion's Landing
3-1
Round 5: 1-1-1 against R/G Ponza
Matched up with one of my friends I came with. If we split we would both make top 8, so we did and just played for fun, and he did me in a couple messing around games.
3-1-1
Top8 Round 1: 2-0 against R/G Ponza
Got my friend again immediately in top8.
Both games I drew the hand control and removal when I needed it, kept up the pressure, and had enough lands. Game 2 I won through an Anger of the Gods killing like 8 spirit tokens. :0
4-1-1
Top8 Round 2: 2-1 against B/R Burn
The rematch of the one round I lost.
Game 1 he flooded out.
Game 2 he hit turn 3 blood moon and I didn't see fetch or basic all game.
Game 3 I had enough life gain and he had just too many lands. The strong play here was when I had a 1/1 lifelink vampire token out and swinging and he played skullcrack to stop the life gain and in response I played my Blessed Alliance to get that 4 life.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
5-1-1
Top8 Round 3: 1-1-1 against Bogles
Technically he got the wins, but we just split the prize pool as it was about 2am and we were ready to leave and I didn't care about the wins (I think he wanted the points.). Just as well, as I think he would have rolled me. 4x mainboard leyline of sanctity, ouch.
5-2-1
It was a ton of fun and felt good. Cleaning up my own mistakes will definitely make it work better but still worked well.
With the possibility of:
- Switching the Boggart Ram-Gangs for Leatherback Baloths, if you want size over speed.
- Switching any number of the vines and blossoming defense, depending on preference.
- Adding a couple Hashep Oasis instead of a couple of forests for some versatility.
This limited environment did seem less bomb heavy, as well as a little lighter on removal. I ended up with a W/G deck that didn't feel strong but ended up playing well on curve and having creatures with decent toughness that traded well with all the small guys running around. Ended up 4-0 and opened Ajani in the prize packs.
I have run a list similar (mainly leatherback baloth over Steel Leaf) before with some decent success.
Groundbreaker limits the use of Collected Company to being cast in your own main phase. Part of the appeal of Collected Company is that it lets you play around board wipes. Overloading on haste creatures limits that effect and playing one-shot damage sources, like Groundbreaker, works directly against it.
So, expounding on what thatmarkguy said, here is what I have told others about using Collected Company in regards to Groundbreaker.
1) I am casting it during the pre-combat main phase on my turn to try to find haste and/or devotion to either get in lethal or push it close. Groundbreaker is great here in both ways.
2) I am casting it during my opponents combat step, after attackers are declared, to attempt to flash in some blockers. Groundbreaker is usually good here as it can usually get a kill or at the least soak up some damage that I could not afford to take.
3) I am casting it during my opponents end step. This is the sneakiest part because, even though at first glance it doesn't seem so, Groundbreaker is strong here too. With the way the rules work, during the end step, all "at end of turn" triggered abilities trigger before players are able to cast spells or activate abilities. Therefore, if I put a Groundbreaker onto the field with Collected Company at that point, the time for the sacrifice ability to trigger is already passed for the turn and has to wait until the next end step (on my turn) before it can trigger, giving me the chance to still attack with it before having to sac it.
There are very few times that I will be casting Collected Company outside of those 3 scenarios (maybe in response to hand disruption). In those rare cases I just hope I don't hit any of the 4 Groundbreakers.
As for the haste, you are correct that it is wasted if used at end step, but the plan is to be fast in general, and the haste is partly trying to make the difference of not having as many smaller creatures; getting in the damage hard and heavy more than swarm. Generally, I am not worried about a couple of creatures not making use of haste if I just so happen to get them with Company to block or at end step. I feel that I making more use of the benefit of haste than what is being wasted at those times.
However, that was all prior to Steel Leaf Champion, which, as I said, I mostly just switched for the Leatherback Baloths. When I ran this deck before, I did not have 2 creatures of comparable power like Steel Leaf and Baloth, and I haven't had a chance to test to see how it would do with both of them and dropping the Boggart Ram-Gang. I feel it would probably be stronger but slower. Gotta say, I really just love ram-gang though, as it is part of the turn 3 win scenario for this deck. But, I need to try the heavier version when I get the chance.
To me this is like saying that Tarmogoyf isn't strong because you need specific things to be in graveyards, or Dark Confidant isn't strong because you need to be able to draw lower costed cards not to kill yourself, or Arcbound Ravager and Steel Overseer aren't strong because because you need to have artifacts/artifact creatures on the board, or Thalia's Lieutenant is not strong because you need to have other humans on board or to play them afterwards.
Most of the time strength is relative to deck building, cards available, and match up. There are tons of strong cards that are not "strong" in and of themselves. How efficient are the above mentioned cards on their own? But in the right decks they are great. The blue creatures talked about are just in that category.
How have the 1x Cast Down and 1x Secure the Wastes felt to you?
Hey, there!
I think the general consensus has been that we usually want to avoid having more than 2-3 lands that unconditionally enter the battlefield tapped and then the next part of that is that Windbrisk Heights has generally been considered not worth it, these days. That may have been a reason for adding the Ethspeths but a 6 drop can be a hard pill to drop in modern if you don't have real ramp (LL is not always there). Now, you may have already practiced a ton with it and love it, but I would suggest dropping the elspeths as too expensive in most capacities. If you want the walkers I would up the 4 drops, maybe a Sorin, lord of innistrad.
Then, without Eslpeth, you can go down to 24 lands very safely and drop the 2x Windbrisk Heights and throw in another fetch.
You probably want to get up to the 4th Intangible Virtue, as it is one of the strongest cards in our deck.
Also, without the double black count of liliana or the value of bitterblossom, if you want to be grindier, good ol' spectral procession is one of the best value-per-cost token producers we can run.
So, if I gave you suggestions for direct changes it would be:
- 2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
- 2x Windbrisk Heights
+ 1x Windswept Heath
+ 1x Intangible Virtue
+ 2x Spectral Procession
You may feel that losing Elspeth and Heights makes you weaker in the late game, but there are many times where in the mid to late game we still don't have 6 mana and just need something usable or an untapped land. I think you can still be grindy enough while also being more consistent.
Good luck!
Yeah, it could have been closer to a Rakdos aggro, but other than the mentioned cards, everything else seemed normal stock burn. I am glad teh luck was on my side in the rematch (at least in 1 extra game).
That would be a perfect answer to them for sure. I may see about fitting that in the side again. All I would have had against them this time would have been the 2 board wipes (with wrath being weak against totem armor), the disenchants, and the blessed alliances (Hoping they didn't draw a leyline.). I am rather glad that I didn't have to actually play him for prizes.
I didn't use Liliana enough to get much of a feel for her. I have generally run the 2/2 Sorin/Gideon split and liked that, but this was the first time running Liliana.
No Spectrals was interesting but not a big issue on token generating, generally. I was actually happy not to have them that day as I faced Blood Moon or Land Destruction in 4 out of 6 real matches, and it would have been hard to cast it.
Didn't really see much of Start // Finish either, so not much to write home about. I do love the instant speed of it though against decks that I may need to remove a creature on their turn but also need to create a board presence if I don't.
The Bitterblossoms seemed fine. I saw them a decent bit still, but I faced enough aggro/combo decks that they didn't matter much in most matches and I sided them out a decent bit. If it was a heavy control/midrange meta, I would probably go up to 4.
I didn't blow up any lands all night with my lands as none of the decks I played against really cared about it, except Ponza and we didn't draw destruction lands and mana enchantments at the same time. I dodged the Tron player and saw no one with man lands. They were more useful as mana for me and the colorless didn't seem to hurt (and they made just as good mountains as any of my other non basics.
The sideboard seemed solid for what I faced. My friends had told me beforehand that there was all kinds of things running around at the LGS but a lot of aggro and combo stuff, so I adjusted accordingly. I dropped 3x stony silence for the 3x damping sphere (and it paid off) and I think I switched out 2x Pithing needle for the 2x blessed alliance (which seemed a solid choice for the night). I felt like I usually had the cards I needed in the sideboard, it was just a matter of drawing them, like usual. As MisterMuffin21 mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring back a runed halo or 2 with some of those decks running around.
I ran:
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Arid Mesa
1x Field of Ruin
Sorcery (12)
2x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instant (9)
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Start // finish
Enchantment (9)
3x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Legion's Landing
2x Auriok Champion
2x Blessed Alliance
3x Damping Sphere
2x Disenchant
1x Slaughter the Strong
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Wrath of God
Round 1: 2-1 against Kiln Fiend Bloo deck.
Game 1 I lost on turn 3 on the play to 26 damage to the face.
Games 2 and 3 I had the removal and then the creatures to turn it tables.
In: 3x Damping Sphere
Out: 3x Bitterblossom
1-0
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
1-1
Round 3: 2-1 against a Balance combo deck
Game 1 he drew 2 balance and I was able to play around the rest and keep enough pressure on to get it.
Game 2 I sided out 4 cards, shuffled up, drew my hand, and realized that I had accidentally shuffled my entire sideboard into my deck instead of setting the other ones to the side... I drew 3 useless cards that game and not surprising lost.
Game 3 I just stayed ahead of him again.
Hand control and Planeswalkers were great here.
In: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Disenchant
Out: 3x Fatal Push, 1x Collective Brutality
2-1
Round 4: 2-1 against Storm.
Game 1 I never drew instant speed removal and got stormed.
Games 2-3 I dropped Damping Sphere before he could find his way, and had both instant speed removal (used some on his creatures also) and a surgical ready both times.
The sideboard is so good here.
In: 3x Damping Sphere, 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 3x Bitterblossom, 2x Start // finish, 2x Legion's Landing
3-1
Round 5: 1-1-1 against R/G Ponza
Matched up with one of my friends I came with. If we split we would both make top 8, so we did and just played for fun, and he did me in a couple messing around games.
3-1-1
Top8 Round 1: 2-0 against R/G Ponza
Got my friend again immediately in top8.
Both games I drew the hand control and removal when I needed it, kept up the pressure, and had enough lands. Game 2 I won through an Anger of the Gods killing like 8 spirit tokens. :0
4-1-1
Top8 Round 2: 2-1 against B/R Burn
The rematch of the one round I lost.
Game 1 he flooded out.
Game 2 he hit turn 3 blood moon and I didn't see fetch or basic all game.
Game 3 I had enough life gain and he had just too many lands. The strong play here was when I had a 1/1 lifelink vampire token out and swinging and he played skullcrack to stop the life gain and in response I played my Blessed Alliance to get that 4 life.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
5-1-1
Top8 Round 3: 1-1-1 against Bogles
Technically he got the wins, but we just split the prize pool as it was about 2am and we were ready to leave and I didn't care about the wins (I think he wanted the points.). Just as well, as I think he would have rolled me.
5-2-1
It was a ton of fun and felt good. Cleaning up my own mistakes will definitely make it work better but still worked well.
Flicking cards to the point of distraction.
As far as Collected Company lists, this is what I would probably run:
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Groundbreaker
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Aspect of Hydra
2x Blossoming Defense
4x Collected Company
2x Vines of Vastwood
20x Forest
With the possibility of:
- Switching the Boggart Ram-Gangs for Leatherback Baloths, if you want size over speed.
- Switching any number of the vines and blossoming defense, depending on preference.
- Adding a couple Hashep Oasis instead of a couple of forests for some versatility.
And a sideboard of something like:
1x Act of Aggression
2x Apostle's Blessing
1x Creeping Corrosion
3x Dismember
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Natural State
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Unravel the Aether
Or whatever fits your meta, of course.
So, expounding on what thatmarkguy said, here is what I have told others about using Collected Company in regards to Groundbreaker.
1) I am casting it during the pre-combat main phase on my turn to try to find haste and/or devotion to either get in lethal or push it close. Groundbreaker is great here in both ways.
2) I am casting it during my opponents combat step, after attackers are declared, to attempt to flash in some blockers. Groundbreaker is usually good here as it can usually get a kill or at the least soak up some damage that I could not afford to take.
3) I am casting it during my opponents end step. This is the sneakiest part because, even though at first glance it doesn't seem so, Groundbreaker is strong here too. With the way the rules work, during the end step, all "at end of turn" triggered abilities trigger before players are able to cast spells or activate abilities. Therefore, if I put a Groundbreaker onto the field with Collected Company at that point, the time for the sacrifice ability to trigger is already passed for the turn and has to wait until the next end step (on my turn) before it can trigger, giving me the chance to still attack with it before having to sac it.
There are very few times that I will be casting Collected Company outside of those 3 scenarios (maybe in response to hand disruption). In those rare cases I just hope I don't hit any of the 4 Groundbreakers.
As for the haste, you are correct that it is wasted if used at end step, but the plan is to be fast in general, and the haste is partly trying to make the difference of not having as many smaller creatures; getting in the damage hard and heavy more than swarm. Generally, I am not worried about a couple of creatures not making use of haste if I just so happen to get them with Company to block or at end step. I feel that I making more use of the benefit of haste than what is being wasted at those times.
However, that was all prior to Steel Leaf Champion, which, as I said, I mostly just switched for the Leatherback Baloths. When I ran this deck before, I did not have 2 creatures of comparable power like Steel Leaf and Baloth, and I haven't had a chance to test to see how it would do with both of them and dropping the Boggart Ram-Gang. I feel it would probably be stronger but slower. Gotta say, I really just love ram-gang though, as it is part of the turn 3 win scenario for this deck. But, I need to try the heavier version when I get the chance.
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Groundbreaker
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Aspect of Hydra
3x Blossoming Defense
4x Collected Company
1x Vines of Vastwood
20x Forest
I have run a list similar (mainly leatherback baloth over Steel Leaf) before with some decent success.