Should this really be Tier 1 after the Pro Tour? These type of events tend to be very inbreed. You had a team of very powerful players all play this deck. just about any deck they played would have put a few people in the Top 32, the players are that good. Not a single Infect player made the Top 8. I feel like this will not be a Top Tier deck and we should hold off on what is "Tier one" until we have more results than one inbred event.
Its Tier 1 based on the formula MTGS has been using for a long, long time. Cant complain about it once you see a deck you don't agree with. If you want to be consistent and non-hypocritical. Go complain about the other tier 1 decks who didnt make it to top 8.
Is this meant to be a troll post? I'll assume it isn't. I have no preference of whether this deck or any other is on the list. In fact I think this deck is interesting and dangerous. My problem is based on Pro Tour results which are hedged more and more by large teams metagaming for the event. The field becomes increasingly inbreed and the results are often non-indicative of what's actually strong.
A moderator gave his response and reasons and I accept that. I'm just generally wary of inbreed statistics. I hope to see Infect put up some strong GP results in the future!
I too am exceedingly wary of inbred statistics. We had this issue last year in a big way when our formula had Bogles as a tier 1 deck for months, despite never repeating its PT success. Monthly updates instead of quarterly updates should help that, and will give us a way to determine if Infect is the real deal or if it is the Bogles of 2015. The challenge here was that we had a huge banning on 1/19 and needed some kind of update in the immediate future to reflect that new metagame. With another update coming on 3/2, after the upcoming Modern GP, we should have enough data to know with certainty how Infect stands.
My suspicion is that this deck is actually a lot better positioned than people think it is. It had a very interesting pre-trend even before the PT, putting up noticeable results on MTGO and at local paper events against a diverse, non-Pro/inbred metagame. I'm not sure if it can keep this up, but I would not bet against it.
it's a cheap deck that people run all day everyday 365 days from a bunch of no-names that can't afford to build real decks on mtgo. but you take the 3-4 that actually put up a record better than 1-3 or 2-2 and ignore all evidence to the contrary.
a broke clock is right 2 times a day.
i think you're just hyped.
also this thread has been really inbred over time previous fad have been:
everyone going on the mono-geen hype train; viridian corrupters main when tom did it; run 2 of apsotle's blessing instead of 4; run 4 of ancient stirrings; run 4 of cathedral of war; run 4 of distortion strike; run 4 of guttral response; run 4 of rancor; remove all rancor; run 4 of wild defiance
just none of that ***** made for a reliable deck and every time i spoke out agaisnt it people accused me of trolling.
you can't ust yank consistency out of this aggressive low combo deck just to try some bull***** $0.10 bulk rare that you find and post in this thread
most of the bad ideas came from magnus and friends.....and they tend to stick around forever!
how many of you are in blue and green running 4 pendlehaven and 4 cathedral.....nobody?
well you all would have argued for that idea 7 months ago!
most people that play on it are testing decks they want to buy themselves or are playing net decks they're trying to learn
it's like practicing for a nascar race at a DMV test facility / learner's permit lot.
spend the $9.99 AND THE $5 to get an infect list on MODO and run the gauntlet if yu feel the need to test online
you'll be a much better player and you'll see why most people make the choices they do. like rancor becomes obvious if you run agaisnt good players
and you find out why burn is a bad matchup, because so far you never played a skilled player on xmage yet if burn isn't an issue for your mono-green list
yeah they were expecting a tone of abzan, 4X become 4X gitaxian 4X mutagenic lets you fuel the yard with the 9X fetchlands they were running since junk doesn't have fast clock or too much pressure early on.
they also believed that thoughtseize, inquisition etc will aid in their become immense over groundswell plan.
decks that you run need to be resilient since it's a much lower competitive level so your infect deck needs to be more resilient to all sorts of wacky combos
the money cards in the lists you guys actually run look more like
~40 in off color fetchlands (misty rainforest too expensive) ~$40 in breeding pool ~$40 inkmoth nexus ~12 might of old krosa (most of you don't run this due to price)
$120 decklists, and around $50 for the mono-G guys which most of the posters in here are
you have a guy asking if inkmoth nexus is really "worth it" it's a $10 card!
So...how is that about the deck, rather than that particular player? If someone said that, PTFRF may have been their first experience seeing the deck piloted by upper echelon players.
Of course, the answer to his question is a resounding "yes".
I've been on G/U Infect for a long time, and I've always felt the potential was there. I think the mindset that it's a "cheap" deck kept people away from it. I have even tried to cheap out on it, by not running Hierarchs or fetches. (Currently un/self employed, and no one around here runs Modern anything anyway, so it's not been a priority)
One thing I found funny about commentary during the featured matches, was the reaction to Wild Defiance. Was it Buehler and Sutcliff perhaps? Anyway, when seeing Wild Defiance, there was a reaction of "Wild Defiance? Woooooooowwwww." And I was like "Yes guys, I've been running that for-freaking-ever now."
I'm testing right now to get a feel of the right build for me. Starting with two Become Immense. I want to get one when I need it, but I don't want a zillion mana spell clogging my hand. I dropped the Rancors I was running in a heartbeat. I'm glad the deck is getting some recognition now, and is creeping out from under the boot of being seen as a "cheap deck", both financially and mechanically.
infect isn't really that cheap a deck though. Of course there are more expensive decks. noble hierarch and fetches itself does cost quite alot actually although it is good that prices of fetches went down to make the deck cheaper.
of course one can go with mono green infect to save costs but it isn't a deck that people will pick up just because it is cheap unless they want to do the mono green version. On the contrary, there are people who wants to pick up the deck but did not pick it up because they found it expensive simply because of the noble, inkmoth and fetches.
without sounding like a dick the deck only seems expensive to you because you self admit you don't play modern. and the fact that you're unemployed. when im tired of storm or infect, i borrow my friends splinter twin deck and there is no chance in hell that you would piolot that and say infect isn't a significantly cheaper deck. you can built U/G for less than a playset of splinter twin (the card). twin is a fun deck and relatively easy to pilot like, i love turn 3 pestermite tapping their attacking creature down, and turn 4 casting twin for the win, but the 2 cryptic commands, the snapcasters etc etc make the deck impossible to build for me
I guess two shot attacks for me are fine. :)) T1 Glistener Elf T2 2x Groundswell + Mutagenic are dreams that I have lived, and I've learned to value my dorks living rather tha having pumps since yeah, the former is dead without the latter. (Or maybe it's just my MonoGreen build state of mind xD). I've also tried the lists with Become Immense >.< Never wanted it opening hand, but it could help drawing one... so I might test it as a 2-of alongside 4x Might and 4x Groundswell :))
@Kovo: Burn drastically shift from being 50-50 to the worst match-up once I shift from MonoGreen to UG. I can just imagine myself fetching Breeding Pool on Turn1, paying 2 for Gitaxian Probe... then seeing the horror of what I've done to myself
I still think I can handle burn, but its literally a luck game at that point. He got lucky with turn 1 guides tonight for both games. And the reveal triggers never showed a land. Its really still a race with burn.
i built a burn deck while the meta was full of mono-green infect shenanigans, taught him how to play it.
eidolon the great revel does work game 1. and blood moons in the side blank the main strategy. burn is a skill intensive deck that requires you to know the meta so many bun players see a glistener elf t1 and just lava spike the face....i'm just like DUDE NO. also ***** like gutshot coming in from the sideboard helps you win the stack-war. a lot of burn players decide to just avoid the stack when dealing with infect thinking its full of answers but most of the time it isn't
this was last week but i'll do it since most people that have posted reports did so in less competitive meta games:
1) UWR Control (2-1)
drew opening hand that was slow on game 1, so decided to keep anyways due to redundant creatures.
opponent opens up with a collanade, looks like he's land light i fetch for a breeding pool play a glistner i expect to get path'd, he untaps and does so. i get a forest..turn 2 i drop an inkmoth, a blighted agent. pass. turn 3 he plays a land and electrolyze killing the agent. dealing one to me. i just kill with the inkmoth. game 2 was a keep a 1 land, ended up screwing me over. tapped out for a wild defiance, resolves but he had more than enough removal to finish out the game with snap-bolt-snap swing with redundant creatures. game 3 better hand and have a dispel in hand
2) JUND, (2-0)
know this guy quite well, bull***** about how he just got foil goyf's tonight to match his playset of foil liliana's...anyways game 1 was little resistance, other than a thoughtseize turn 1 taking a rancor, turn 2 bolt, turn 3 inquisition kept repeating this until i am suddenly at 5 card in the yard. with a large goyf looking me down. exile 5 tap a G and swing with an inkmoth pumped with a become immense (1 of). game 2 i won by poking with an unblockable blighted agent and savingit from bolts. inkmoth gets pretty useless in game 2 so i kept drawing them and saccing to lili tiggers while the agent did work. JUND is one of the reasons why we run blue. if your meta is goyf and lil heavy run blue.
3) Affinity (2-1)
not much to say about this we always pair up every week and it's race. i still run 2 rancor to run over the etched champs and you hope you can top deck the apostle's blessing and get them to 10. games 2 and 3 it's a race but i bing in 2 extra nature's claim to either gain 4 off of my own rancor when i really need it, or pop a chump blocker, or even the threat of having it stops you from getting 10 poison counters from an all in before he can. so it blanks their poison all-in and win deal.
4) Infect Mirror match (2-1)
coin flip, not much inter action other than vines of vast wood on their creatures to slow them down if you have the win a turn slower, which is what i had to do on the draw. on the play i got a turn 2 kill which is v rare
there was a documented case where austin forgot his opponent was at 2 while counting up the damage he could deal and scooped.
check his twitter
he would have won the game but the judge grabbed the dice that was marking poison for austin near the lifepad (did not write it down) so austin assumed his opponent was at 0
i understand the numbers and recognize them, but i disagree with how you process them
so if WOTC says this length here is an inch
Wizards has never defined a tier in any way, at least not publicly. Our dataset is an attempt to correct for that. I honestly have no clue what the rest of your post is about with regards to feet and inches
Who decides whether or not a deck is Tier 1? I'm actually pleased that UG Infect is starting to get recognized after the bannings. I've been on it for a while now. Who says your deck has to cost "x" amount of dollars in order for it to be Tier 1? The salty Junk players with their 1200-1500 dollar decks that lose to Infect? With that being said, four Noble Hierarchs are a must if you wanna consider your deck Tier 1. She's truly amazing in the deck. You can't argue with the performance that Infect put on at the Pro Tour in the constructed portion. I'd agree that Infect should be Tier 1. But I ask again, who decides these things?
in this forum there is an arbitrary formula a mod came up with.
in the real world, i'd say results. affinity puts up work in PTQ and 5k standings on a consistent basis.
see that word, consistent, infect supposedly reached top tier deck status on the back of one tournament because of the constructed results of some lower ranking members of the CFBP team.
my argument is it's not going to see jund or affinity levels of domination it's just here to play in the shallow pool while the meta adjusts to the recent pod and cruise bannings that made the real tier 1 decks a little less reliable for events
the results overall speak volumes about twin more tan infect.
you have the best players in the game, across magic the gathering constructed pro level events from both WOTC and SCG adopting a strategy to the point where just under 4% of the PT meta game is that deck...and twin takes the event...some random spanish guy and a previous pt champion who did not test the deck whatsoever (ari lax said in interview) getting to the semis
and infect is the list we prop up into tier 1? sounds more like self serving prophecy / hype train to me
the types of people that play infect simply don't have the spike mindset, i mean look at these posts.....these guys aren't in it to win
you have a guy asking if inkmoth nexus is really "worth it" it's a $10 card!
if this were standard we would all be playing gainlands and talking about how great jeskai student was with out bulk garbage and talking about just attending an fnm...not topping it
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
--------------------------
wit that said 99.9% of infect lists are budget mono-green
might of old krosa is a $5-6 card...that is an instant buy for most real tier 1 decks however there is a 15 page argument over whether or not it's necessary because most players are too poor to buy the playset.
this is not tier 1 discussion in a format with LOTV and $200+ tarmogoyf in the format.
even the U/G green lists argue over running misty rainforest because it's too expensive, complain about wooded foothills the $8 cards
nobody here owns a single copy of noble hierarch
i mean cmon this ***** isn't how tier 1 players with a tier 1 deck act
is that 17 nights in a row that you placed first? thats pretty impressive, my run at consistently running 4-0 was only like 12 weeks strong little under 4 months the pod decks started becoming prevalent and a single remand on the draw put he behind the splinter twin decks where they would see if i had vines or not then just go for the win on 4
i played it the day before the modern banlist update and went 2-1 drop
then 4-0'd the night after the list update heh
i have an infect list that paid for itself with that said, not the greatest in the paper metagame
you see all these modern daily 4-0's
so when you go to a store you can 4-0 just like on MODO, however you can play 5-6-7 dailys a week and rarely see the same people.
however wen you go to the store the week after you 4-0 an event....the people there basically point at you and say...that guy runs infect....and if you continue to win at pace that earns you some serious store credit, people end up just altering their entire sideboards just to take you out.
i've played scapeshift decks that ran 4 meliras post board.
keep that in mind before you drop some money on the deck. it's a tier 2 deck that thrives on the online environment.
it's the same thing with burn, fine choice for MODO or the PT but week-to-week epect people to muligan to a leyline
it's a cheap deck that people run all day everyday 365 days from a bunch of no-names that can't afford to build real decks on mtgo. but you take the 3-4 that actually put up a record better than 1-3 or 2-2 and ignore all evidence to the contrary.
a broke clock is right 2 times a day.
i think you're just hyped.
also this thread has been really inbred over time previous fad have been:
everyone going on the mono-geen hype train; viridian corrupters main when tom did it; run 2 of apsotle's blessing instead of 4; run 4 of ancient stirrings; run 4 of cathedral of war; run 4 of distortion strike; run 4 of guttral response; run 4 of rancor; remove all rancor; run 4 of wild defiance
just none of that ***** made for a reliable deck and every time i spoke out agaisnt it people accused me of trolling.
you can't ust yank consistency out of this aggressive low combo deck just to try some bull***** $0.10 bulk rare that you find and post in this thread
most of the bad ideas came from magnus and friends.....and they tend to stick around forever!
how many of you are in blue and green running 4 pendlehaven and 4 cathedral.....nobody?
well you all would have argued for that idea 7 months ago!
most people that play on it are testing decks they want to buy themselves or are playing net decks they're trying to learn
it's like practicing for a nascar race at a DMV test facility / learner's permit lot.
spend the $9.99 AND THE $5 to get an infect list on MODO and run the gauntlet if yu feel the need to test online
you'll be a much better player and you'll see why most people make the choices they do. like rancor becomes obvious if you run agaisnt good players
and you find out why burn is a bad matchup, because so far you never played a skilled player on xmage yet if burn isn't an issue for your mono-green list
they also believed that thoughtseize, inquisition etc will aid in their become immense over groundswell plan.
decks that you run need to be resilient since it's a much lower competitive level so your infect deck needs to be more resilient to all sorts of wacky combos
you posted your lists,
the money cards in the lists you guys actually run look more like
~40 in off color fetchlands (misty rainforest too expensive) ~$40 in breeding pool ~$40 inkmoth nexus ~12 might of old krosa (most of you don't run this due to price)
$120 decklists, and around $50 for the mono-G guys which most of the posters in here are
without sounding like a dick the deck only seems expensive to you because you self admit you don't play modern. and the fact that you're unemployed. when im tired of storm or infect, i borrow my friends splinter twin deck and there is no chance in hell that you would piolot that and say infect isn't a significantly cheaper deck. you can built U/G for less than a playset of splinter twin (the card). twin is a fun deck and relatively easy to pilot like, i love turn 3 pestermite tapping their attacking creature down, and turn 4 casting twin for the win, but the 2 cryptic commands, the snapcasters etc etc make the deck impossible to build for me
i built a burn deck while the meta was full of mono-green infect shenanigans, taught him how to play it.
eidolon the great revel does work game 1. and blood moons in the side blank the main strategy. burn is a skill intensive deck that requires you to know the meta so many bun players see a glistener elf t1 and just lava spike the face....i'm just like DUDE NO. also ***** like gutshot coming in from the sideboard helps you win the stack-war. a lot of burn players decide to just avoid the stack when dealing with infect thinking its full of answers but most of the time it isn't
1) UWR Control (2-1)
drew opening hand that was slow on game 1, so decided to keep anyways due to redundant creatures.
opponent opens up with a collanade, looks like he's land light i fetch for a breeding pool play a glistner i expect to get path'd, he untaps and does so. i get a forest..turn 2 i drop an inkmoth, a blighted agent. pass. turn 3 he plays a land and electrolyze killing the agent. dealing one to me. i just kill with the inkmoth. game 2 was a keep a 1 land, ended up screwing me over. tapped out for a wild defiance, resolves but he had more than enough removal to finish out the game with snap-bolt-snap swing with redundant creatures. game 3 better hand and have a dispel in hand
2) JUND, (2-0)
know this guy quite well, bull***** about how he just got foil goyf's tonight to match his playset of foil liliana's...anyways game 1 was little resistance, other than a thoughtseize turn 1 taking a rancor, turn 2 bolt, turn 3 inquisition kept repeating this until i am suddenly at 5 card in the yard. with a large goyf looking me down. exile 5 tap a G and swing with an inkmoth pumped with a become immense (1 of). game 2 i won by poking with an unblockable blighted agent and savingit from bolts. inkmoth gets pretty useless in game 2 so i kept drawing them and saccing to lili tiggers while the agent did work. JUND is one of the reasons why we run blue. if your meta is goyf and lil heavy run blue.
3) Affinity (2-1)
not much to say about this we always pair up every week and it's race. i still run 2 rancor to run over the etched champs and you hope you can top deck the apostle's blessing and get them to 10. games 2 and 3 it's a race but i bing in 2 extra nature's claim to either gain 4 off of my own rancor when i really need it, or pop a chump blocker, or even the threat of having it stops you from getting 10 poison counters from an all in before he can. so it blanks their poison all-in and win deal.
4) Infect Mirror match (2-1)
coin flip, not much inter action other than vines of vast wood on their creatures to slow them down if you have the win a turn slower, which is what i had to do on the draw. on the play i got a turn 2 kill which is v rare
check his twitter
he would have won the game but the judge grabbed the dice that was marking poison for austin near the lifepad (did not write it down) so austin assumed his opponent was at 0
yeah, i have a few more college degrees than the average magic player
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
i'll keep the vocab limited
so if WOTC says this length here is an inch
you come along and you make a ruleset that says okay from here to right here is defined as "about an inch"
----------
i am saying, hey...your standard levels of deviation is more than 5 feet.
4 feet is not "about an inch"
and you're basically saying
yes it is, here is what wotc defines as an inch and here is my forumla
yeah your formula is wrong, a deck can run hot at 1 event and be defined as the best deck in the format for months
in this forum there is an arbitrary formula a mod came up with.
in the real world, i'd say results. affinity puts up work in PTQ and 5k standings on a consistent basis.
see that word, consistent, infect supposedly reached top tier deck status on the back of one tournament because of the constructed results of some lower ranking members of the CFBP team.
my argument is it's not going to see jund or affinity levels of domination it's just here to play in the shallow pool while the meta adjusts to the recent pod and cruise bannings that made the real tier 1 decks a little less reliable for events
you have the best players in the game, across magic the gathering constructed pro level events from both WOTC and SCG adopting a strategy to the point where just under 4% of the PT meta game is that deck...and twin takes the event...some random spanish guy and a previous pt champion who did not test the deck whatsoever (ari lax said in interview) getting to the semis
and infect is the list we prop up into tier 1? sounds more like self serving prophecy / hype train to me
the types of people that play infect simply don't have the spike mindset, i mean look at these posts.....these guys aren't in it to win
you have a guy asking if inkmoth nexus is really "worth it" it's a $10 card!
if this were standard we would all be playing gainlands and talking about how great jeskai student was with out bulk garbage and talking about just attending an fnm...not topping it
it didn't top 8 with te best players in the game playing it.
tom ross was 8-8, huey was barely top 64 and finkel only got where he did because of his draft record being around a 5-1
his constructed record was something along the lines of 6-4 or 7-3 lackluster.
--------------------------
wit that said 99.9% of infect lists are budget mono-green
might of old krosa is a $5-6 card...that is an instant buy for most real tier 1 decks however there is a 15 page argument over whether or not it's necessary because most players are too poor to buy the playset.
this is not tier 1 discussion in a format with LOTV and $200+ tarmogoyf in the format.
even the U/G green lists argue over running misty rainforest because it's too expensive, complain about wooded foothills the $8 cards
nobody here owns a single copy of noble hierarch
i mean cmon this ***** isn't how tier 1 players with a tier 1 deck act
infect is a budget/poor people deck
i played it the day before the modern banlist update and went 2-1 drop
then 4-0'd the night after the list update heh
been playing storm
you see all these modern daily 4-0's
so when you go to a store you can 4-0 just like on MODO, however you can play 5-6-7 dailys a week and rarely see the same people.
however wen you go to the store the week after you 4-0 an event....the people there basically point at you and say...that guy runs infect....and if you continue to win at pace that earns you some serious store credit, people end up just altering their entire sideboards just to take you out.
i've played scapeshift decks that ran 4 meliras post board.
keep that in mind before you drop some money on the deck. it's a tier 2 deck that thrives on the online environment.
it's the same thing with burn, fine choice for MODO or the PT but week-to-week epect people to muligan to a leyline