How about Painful Truths in the matchups we want card draw? What matchups do we want card draw?
Rhino is slow vs Affinity and Eldrazi. This might be the wrong choice, but I wanted to go lower.
We want draw against BGx, Non-Delver Blue decks, the Mirror/other Green White decks (hatebears ect.), and I'd say that's about it. In the matches where card draw is good, it's extremely powerful, but it's only good against so many decks.
I've played Harmonize before, it was pretty good. I actually don't know if it or Painful Truths are better in the matches where we want to draw cards; I'd assume Truths but Jund can be surprisingly aggressive and dying to Bolt-Snap-Bolt with this deck is humiliating, so I think there is merit to both.
@Arkaedrian: Until the Eldrazi are banned, we have to do our best to fight it. It's a completely winable match-up for us, so I think we're better off than most of the rest of the format.
Yeah, having 0 card draw is the decks weakness. I do what I can, trying to cut dead draws from the deck and running a lower land count, but it isn't always enough.
I'd be open to trying a sword depending on the metagame. I believe Wilson ran 2 in the sideboard in the decks debut.
Nice to see the lists guys, I love how everyone's trying different stuff.
@Arkaedrian: I'm unsure on cutting Souls out. Against Eldrazi, Affinity, and BGx decks it's really powerful. If you wanted to put Command and Pulse back in the main, I would look at the mana dorks and Scavenging Ooze from your list. Overall I do really like your build though.
@Velthov: Yeah I think swords could be strong in a twinless metagame where people aren't playing as many copies of Abrupt Decay. I most prefer Sword of Fire and Ice, but Light and Shadow is extremely powerful when you get it going as well.
Have fun facing T2 reality Smashers guys! And no I don't want to 3 for 1 myself with Path to Exile.
Just do what I do and discard Loxodon Smiter or Wilt-Leaf Liege; at that point you're ahead on board and they can have the spare wastes, it doesn't matter.
I think calling Modern dead at this point is just silly. Give it a month, then decide if it's dead or not.
I wonder how many games people who are calling Eldrazi insane have tested against it with different decks. If they've grinded a few dozen yet to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Perhaps the deck is absolutely invincible to all forms of attack in all situations, but maybe certain decks can beat it.
My testing has made me hopeful the deck can be beaten, while still feeling it's probably too good. I'd like to withhold final judgement for a later date.
I built CFBs list, me and a few people did and ran it through a bunch of test eight mans(I ended up playing 23ish matches with the deck, probably a total of 80 something matches combined between me and some freinds. The consensus seems to be that for every nut hand you keep theres another trash unplayable hand. The deck is really swingy, not sure if it should be banned or not. Its good to nut draws are unbeatable and all revolve around some combo of t1 eye into t2 temple, but its ok draws are really slow and just bad. I think the meta can adapt, and we have to remember to that at the pro tour they had random BS factor going on, nobody had any idea what they were playing against, and nobody had SB for it, and even if they might have had good cards to bring in you might not know if you died on t4.
edit: Like you have to mulligan a lot with this deck, sometimes into oblivion. you get a lot of that have sol lands and not enough action and some hands with action and no sol lands or hands that are just double spirit guide, eye, mimic dismember jank that are completely unplayable.
My testing has found similar results. Most draws are reasonable, some are explosive, some are anemic. The deck also top decks really badly; 24 lands, 4 Guide, 4 Chalice, no filtration and minimal card draw (Matter Reshaper is it). I think it's an extremely powerful deck, but it's not a consistent deck.
How are those Stirring Wildwoods working out for you though? Seem terrible to me but I could be mistaken. And 4 Finks?
I've never played any number than 2 Wildwood. It's really important against control decks, as manlands are critical to playing around Cryptic Command. It's also the only creature with reach in the deck, adding to souls to protect from flying threats. Wildwood has never screwed me before, while I've lost plenty of games due to multiple Gavony Townships. So I have good experience with it.
As for Finks, I've been playing 3-4 of it since before Jacob Wilson showed off the deck, and I've been firmly on 4 for a few months. The life gain is extremely important in beating burn, where I feel relying on Siege Rhino is not enough. Against Zoo, Finks is just about the best card there is. Any kind of URx deck struggles against Finks, as it's a threat that's hard to remove and also makes the bolt-snap-bolt your face plan pretty bad. Against Liliana, it's the best card to sacrifice. By playing a mix of Finks and Voice, you can overextend into most boardwipes and still keep an aggressive board presence going (which Wildwood really helps with). Lastly, Finks gives Restoration Angel from the sideboard 10 great targets to produce value with (Finks, Rhino, Thragtusk).
This is a copy-past from the Little Kid thread; just wanted to share my results with others to try and solve the Eldrazi Menance.
I've found the match-up against colorless Eldrazi to be about 60/40 after 40 test games. I played against the list LSV was using at the PT, and here's the version of my deck I played;
Against Colorless Eldrazi, you will lose to their insane opening hands. There's nothing you can do about 2 Mimics turn 1, and a Thought-Naught Seer on turn 2 and another on turn 3. You just lose.
But as for the actual games of magic you play, which are far more common than them going completely nuts, it's a good match-up. Our removal is fantastic against them to start with. Our creatures are as large or larger than most of what they play, specifically when we attack with exalted. The massive amounts of life gain ensure we're hard to race, and creatures like Voice, Finks, and Souls tokens are unappealing to attack into and turn 3 for 1 blocks into effective 1 for ones.
If the game goes late, we're very favored. We have superior topdecks in general, specifically the absolutely back-breaking power of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Liege turns Finks into a Reality Smasher killer, Smiter and Rhino into comical giants, and makes Souls exceptionally quick as a clock. Dismember is their only out to Liege, and we have other cards that demand removal.
Our clogged board states are just better than there's in the mid-late game, and because we play more removal to draw into, in addition to Liege and Souls, it's easier to break them.
In terms of speed, I'd like to mention again their nut draws slaughter us. But their normal draws are no faster than our normal draws. We can dump our hand by turn 4 or 5 easily enough, which keeps us in the game and threatening their life total/protecting our own.
At the end of the day, Eldrazi is probably stronger against the metagame. But I think Little Kid can beat colorless Eldrazi at least 55% of the time. I still need to do more testing post-board, but the Eldrazi deck can do quite alot (-4 Guide -4 Chalice, +3 Gutshot +3 Sower +1 Rachet Bomb +1 Relic), so I think they'll do better post board than main board. That said, I can bring in strong cards as well to either make myself harder to kill (Worship) or additional exile removal. I think I'm going to be favored overall, against that specific deck.
The exact kind of affinity you were thinking of in 1st place.
UWR Pyro-Clamp in 2nd place.
BUG Tempo in 3rd place.
UB Tezzeret Control in 4th place.
UR Delver in 5th place.
Another UR Delver in 6th place.
UW Death and Taxes in 7th place.
UW Miracles in 8th place.
Edit: Of course the top 8 is all blue and we know that many posters here would rather the current meta than have multiple blue decks in the top 8 of a tournament.
Yes, for what it's worth, I would stop playing modern completely and refocus my efforts on other formats if it became Blue.format. I don't care if the archetypes are somewhat diverse, I care about color diversity and like to play a variety of colors and color combinations. Legacy is already an extremely blue format, and I while I enjoy modern more, if they were both blue only formats I'd gladly play Legacy and standard exclusively.
As for ban list discussion, I imagine if they ban Eye Ugin, the format is in a position to recover.
Also, to people who think the Eldrazi decks are totally unbeatable, I've got a 50%+ winrate against the pro-tour Mono Colorless Eldrazi deck with Little Kid Abzan. I'll be testing against the Izzet deck sooner than later, and I'll have an idea of how that match-up is. I think the decks are probably unhealthy and unbalanced for modern, but I'm not convinced their invincible yet.
I haven't tested against the Bx or the UR Eldrazi decks, but against the colored ones, Little Kid Abzan is strong against the colorless one. You play great removal, creatures just as big as the majority of there's, Souls to present a quick clock and block for days, and Wilt-Leaf Liege to go over the top. Add in tons of life gain to make the race hard for them, and overall I've been doing very well in the match-up.
You still lose to there Turn 1 double Mimic, Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer draws, but that's rare enough that I feel favored in the match-up.
@Arkaedrian: Those seems like valid criticisms. I like Lion as a hedge against BGx and Grixis decks, where I've found having a 2 drop that can be a 5/5 is very strong, and it's Monstrous power can end some games on the spot.
If you're planning on beating Eldrazi style decks, I'd keep the 4 Liege. If you're looking for a more versatile meta game, I'd cut the 4th Liege for the 1st Pulse 100% of the time.
As for the side, I feel like we need to have cards to bring in against BGx, UWR and Grixis, the Mirror, Zoo, and additional grindy decks. I like Restro and Thrag because their 2 for 1 creatures that present a swift clock, keep our life total high which allows to play the game aggressively. In addition, their strong top-decks in general, which is really important for a deck that plays 0 card draw and 0 card selection.
Now that said, I do looooove Zealous Persecution for the free, skillless wins it's given me. Fantastic card.
@AsrialX: I've played it in the side before. Sometimes you auto win when you drop it. So yeah, it's a strong option.
What about BG Eldrazi Rock? Could this be a viable build?
Isn't pure Eldrazi colorless build just better than? I don't know... It could work but I'm not that sure about it. Do you have an idea how this would look like? A list maybe or some suggestions?
I don't know. Probably it's not viable - the manabase is bad with just Llanowar wastes tapping for 3 colours. TKS, Smasher and Matter Reshaper are good rock creatures. Black is for discard and Maelstrom Pulse. Green for Goyfs and 1 or 2 Scoozes/ Finks.
But someone better than me has to make the manabase.
You'd play 4 Llanowar Wastes and 4 Twilight Mires right? That'd help a mana a reasonable amount.
If you want to play Deathtouch against them (and you do with a mono green deck), I like Heir of the Wilds. It's cheap and starts the clock against other decks, and it's got Deathtouch.
We did it everyone. Our decks way better now than before, good job us!
Joking aside, I've found the match-up against colorless Eldrazi to be about 50/50 or better after 25 test games. I played against the list LSV was using at the PT, and here's the version of my deck I played;
Against Colorless Eldrazi, you will lose to their insane opening hands. There's nothing you can do about 2 Mimics turn 1, and a Thought-Naught Seer on turn 2 and another on turn 3. You just lose.
But as for the actual games of magic you play, which are far more common than them going completely nuts, it's a good match-up. Our removal is fantastic against them to start with. Our creatures are as large or larger than most of what they play, specifically when we attack with exalted. The massive amounts of life gain ensure we're hard to race, and creatures like Voice, Finks, and Souls tokens are unappealing to attack into and turn 3 for 1 blocks into effective 1 for ones.
If the game goes late, we're very favored. We have superior topdecks in general, specifically the absolutely back-breaking power of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Liege turns Finks into a Reality Smasher killer, Smiter and Rhino into comical giants, and makes Souls exceptionally quick as a clock. Dismember is their only out to Liege, and we have other cards that demand removal.
Our clogged board states are just better than there's in the mid-late game, and because we play more removal to draw into, in addition to Liege and Souls, it's easier to break them.
In terms of speed, I'd like to mention again their nut draws slaughter us. But their normal draws are no faster than our normal draws. We can dump our hand by turn 4 or 5 easily enough, which keeps us in the game and threatening their life total/protecting our own.
At the end of the day, Eldrazi is probably stronger against the metagame. But I think Little Kid can beat colorless Eldrazi at least 50% of the time. And for me, that's a win, so I'm happy to sleeve this ol' boy up again after taking a short break to play Elves and America.
Wallet - About $20 - $50, a few family pictures, and some things like health insurance information.
Passport - I'm a US citizen and live in the United States, but I don't drive so I need some way to identify myself.
Cellphone - HTC One
Knife - Never know when you'll need it.
For magic events I carry a large laptop bag with 3-4 decks for different formats, a Yugioh and Force of Will deck, a playmat, and a trade binder.
We want draw against BGx, Non-Delver Blue decks, the Mirror/other Green White decks (hatebears ect.), and I'd say that's about it. In the matches where card draw is good, it's extremely powerful, but it's only good against so many decks.
I've played Harmonize before, it was pretty good. I actually don't know if it or Painful Truths are better in the matches where we want to draw cards; I'd assume Truths but Jund can be surprisingly aggressive and dying to Bolt-Snap-Bolt with this deck is humiliating, so I think there is merit to both.
@Arkaedrian: Until the Eldrazi are banned, we have to do our best to fight it. It's a completely winable match-up for us, so I think we're better off than most of the rest of the format.
I'd be open to trying a sword depending on the metagame. I believe Wilson ran 2 in the sideboard in the decks debut.
@Arkaedrian: I'm unsure on cutting Souls out. Against Eldrazi, Affinity, and BGx decks it's really powerful. If you wanted to put Command and Pulse back in the main, I would look at the mana dorks and Scavenging Ooze from your list. Overall I do really like your build though.
@Velthov: Yeah I think swords could be strong in a twinless metagame where people aren't playing as many copies of Abrupt Decay. I most prefer Sword of Fire and Ice, but Light and Shadow is extremely powerful when you get it going as well.
Just do what I do and discard Loxodon Smiter or Wilt-Leaf Liege; at that point you're ahead on board and they can have the spare wastes, it doesn't matter.
I wonder how many games people who are calling Eldrazi insane have tested against it with different decks. If they've grinded a few dozen yet to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Perhaps the deck is absolutely invincible to all forms of attack in all situations, but maybe certain decks can beat it.
My testing has made me hopeful the deck can be beaten, while still feeling it's probably too good. I'd like to withhold final judgement for a later date.
My testing has found similar results. Most draws are reasonable, some are explosive, some are anemic. The deck also top decks really badly; 24 lands, 4 Guide, 4 Chalice, no filtration and minimal card draw (Matter Reshaper is it). I think it's an extremely powerful deck, but it's not a consistent deck.
I've never played any number than 2 Wildwood. It's really important against control decks, as manlands are critical to playing around Cryptic Command. It's also the only creature with reach in the deck, adding to souls to protect from flying threats. Wildwood has never screwed me before, while I've lost plenty of games due to multiple Gavony Townships. So I have good experience with it.
As for Finks, I've been playing 3-4 of it since before Jacob Wilson showed off the deck, and I've been firmly on 4 for a few months. The life gain is extremely important in beating burn, where I feel relying on Siege Rhino is not enough. Against Zoo, Finks is just about the best card there is. Any kind of URx deck struggles against Finks, as it's a threat that's hard to remove and also makes the bolt-snap-bolt your face plan pretty bad. Against Liliana, it's the best card to sacrifice. By playing a mix of Finks and Voice, you can overextend into most boardwipes and still keep an aggressive board presence going (which Wildwood really helps with). Lastly, Finks gives Restoration Angel from the sideboard 10 great targets to produce value with (Finks, Rhino, Thragtusk).
I've found the match-up against colorless Eldrazi to be about 60/40 after 40 test games. I played against the list LSV was using at the PT, and here's the version of my deck I played;
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Fleecemane Lion
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Lingering Souls
4 Siege Rhino
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Spells
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Gavony Township
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thragtusk
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Celestial Purge
Against Colorless Eldrazi, you will lose to their insane opening hands. There's nothing you can do about 2 Mimics turn 1, and a Thought-Naught Seer on turn 2 and another on turn 3. You just lose.
But as for the actual games of magic you play, which are far more common than them going completely nuts, it's a good match-up. Our removal is fantastic against them to start with. Our creatures are as large or larger than most of what they play, specifically when we attack with exalted. The massive amounts of life gain ensure we're hard to race, and creatures like Voice, Finks, and Souls tokens are unappealing to attack into and turn 3 for 1 blocks into effective 1 for ones.
If the game goes late, we're very favored. We have superior topdecks in general, specifically the absolutely back-breaking power of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Liege turns Finks into a Reality Smasher killer, Smiter and Rhino into comical giants, and makes Souls exceptionally quick as a clock. Dismember is their only out to Liege, and we have other cards that demand removal.
Our clogged board states are just better than there's in the mid-late game, and because we play more removal to draw into, in addition to Liege and Souls, it's easier to break them.
In terms of speed, I'd like to mention again their nut draws slaughter us. But their normal draws are no faster than our normal draws. We can dump our hand by turn 4 or 5 easily enough, which keeps us in the game and threatening their life total/protecting our own.
At the end of the day, Eldrazi is probably stronger against the metagame. But I think Little Kid can beat colorless Eldrazi at least 55% of the time. I still need to do more testing post-board, but the Eldrazi deck can do quite alot (-4 Guide -4 Chalice, +3 Gutshot +3 Sower +1 Rachet Bomb +1 Relic), so I think they'll do better post board than main board. That said, I can bring in strong cards as well to either make myself harder to kill (Worship) or additional exile removal. I think I'm going to be favored overall, against that specific deck.
Testing of the UR version is pending.
Yes, for what it's worth, I would stop playing modern completely and refocus my efforts on other formats if it became Blue.format. I don't care if the archetypes are somewhat diverse, I care about color diversity and like to play a variety of colors and color combinations. Legacy is already an extremely blue format, and I while I enjoy modern more, if they were both blue only formats I'd gladly play Legacy and standard exclusively.
As for ban list discussion, I imagine if they ban Eye Ugin, the format is in a position to recover.
Also, to people who think the Eldrazi decks are totally unbeatable, I've got a 50%+ winrate against the pro-tour Mono Colorless Eldrazi deck with Little Kid Abzan. I'll be testing against the Izzet deck sooner than later, and I'll have an idea of how that match-up is. I think the decks are probably unhealthy and unbalanced for modern, but I'm not convinced their invincible yet.
You still lose to there Turn 1 double Mimic, Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer draws, but that's rare enough that I feel favored in the match-up.
If you're planning on beating Eldrazi style decks, I'd keep the 4 Liege. If you're looking for a more versatile meta game, I'd cut the 4th Liege for the 1st Pulse 100% of the time.
As for the side, I feel like we need to have cards to bring in against BGx, UWR and Grixis, the Mirror, Zoo, and additional grindy decks. I like Restro and Thrag because their 2 for 1 creatures that present a swift clock, keep our life total high which allows to play the game aggressively. In addition, their strong top-decks in general, which is really important for a deck that plays 0 card draw and 0 card selection.
Now that said, I do looooove Zealous Persecution for the free, skillless wins it's given me. Fantastic card.
@AsrialX: I've played it in the side before. Sometimes you auto win when you drop it. So yeah, it's a strong option.
You'd play 4 Llanowar Wastes and 4 Twilight Mires right? That'd help a mana a reasonable amount.
Joking aside, I've found the match-up against colorless Eldrazi to be about 50/50 or better after 25 test games. I played against the list LSV was using at the PT, and here's the version of my deck I played;
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Fleecemane Lion
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Lingering Souls
4 Siege Rhino
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Spells
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Gavony Township
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thragtusk
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Celestial Purge
Against Colorless Eldrazi, you will lose to their insane opening hands. There's nothing you can do about 2 Mimics turn 1, and a Thought-Naught Seer on turn 2 and another on turn 3. You just lose.
But as for the actual games of magic you play, which are far more common than them going completely nuts, it's a good match-up. Our removal is fantastic against them to start with. Our creatures are as large or larger than most of what they play, specifically when we attack with exalted. The massive amounts of life gain ensure we're hard to race, and creatures like Voice, Finks, and Souls tokens are unappealing to attack into and turn 3 for 1 blocks into effective 1 for ones.
If the game goes late, we're very favored. We have superior topdecks in general, specifically the absolutely back-breaking power of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Liege turns Finks into a Reality Smasher killer, Smiter and Rhino into comical giants, and makes Souls exceptionally quick as a clock. Dismember is their only out to Liege, and we have other cards that demand removal.
Our clogged board states are just better than there's in the mid-late game, and because we play more removal to draw into, in addition to Liege and Souls, it's easier to break them.
In terms of speed, I'd like to mention again their nut draws slaughter us. But their normal draws are no faster than our normal draws. We can dump our hand by turn 4 or 5 easily enough, which keeps us in the game and threatening their life total/protecting our own.
At the end of the day, Eldrazi is probably stronger against the metagame. But I think Little Kid can beat colorless Eldrazi at least 50% of the time. And for me, that's a win, so I'm happy to sleeve this ol' boy up again after taking a short break to play Elves and America.
Wallet - About $20 - $50, a few family pictures, and some things like health insurance information.
Passport - I'm a US citizen and live in the United States, but I don't drive so I need some way to identify myself.
Cellphone - HTC One
Knife - Never know when you'll need it.
For magic events I carry a large laptop bag with 3-4 decks for different formats, a Yugioh and Force of Will deck, a playmat, and a trade binder.