MTG Salvation

I'm curious if anyone has put any thought into Grim Flayer. I see the occasional list running a one of Tarmagoyf and I believe this card would directly compete for that slot whether it's in the sideboard or maindeck. It might sound ridiculous but hear me out.

Delirium is incredibly easy to achieve in suicide zoo with 4 Baubles (artifact), 4 Street Wraith (creature) and 4 Gitaxian Probe (sorcery) as 0 mana plays to go along with 12 fetch lands and warming interaction in Thoughseize and Bolt. Some lists already have Traverse the Ulvenwald to back up this claim. Grim Flayer will often come down as a 4/4 which is worse than Goyf. However, he presents more upside over Goyf in a different axis with already having trample which interacts very well with Become Immense and Mutagenic Growth not needing Temur Battle Rage to grant trample. When it does connect with an opposing player, we are granted very good card selection as well as additional delve fodder for some potential delve fatties in the SB games. Not having a Goyf, I definitely plan on giving Grim Flayer some testing.

Quote from mds688 »

I'm not sure on what comes out for spell queller? war monk/smiter maybe? because once in play queller serves the beat down plan. He also, hopefully pulls a removal spell away from KotR, if not then you can get in for 2+exalted until opponent wants his spell back.

I have trouble with the infect matchup And I can see queller pulling it's weight there, flying is relevant and stealing a pump spell against a deck with little removal seems fine. The affinity matchup might get a boost too, I can't turn down maindeck answers for plating and champion.
Spell queller seems fine in the tron and scapeshift matches too. blanking an early game ramp effect might be a decent enough tempo swing in our favor to slow down the enevitable.

Conversely, spell queller seems bad against jund/Abzan/grixis and especially burn. Jund and Abzan you take out lily's and their value creatures, Grixis it would feel great to snag AV, but all three decks have more than enough removal to bolt/path/terminate/Decay queller and get back their spell. The only target in burn I like is Reveler. they maybe don't spend a bolt to take it back, but almost every other spell, their value play involves searing blaze and us taking at least 6.

what other matchup would queller help against?

I do agree that it seems bad against the grindy three colour decks that are full of removal. I don't agree that it's bad against burn. It's a flash 2/3 blocker that can cleanly block Goblin Guide, Eidolon, and sometimes Monastery Swiftspear (can safely block even with 1 prowess trigger). The fact that they have so many ways to kill it does not bother me. Them having to aim their burn spells at my creatures as opposed to my face is a win. I do agree that Searing Blaze sucks but our deck is in no position to play around that card. I think Spell Queller is a great piece of interaction for the combo/ linear decks that can outrace us. Spell Queller seems great aginst Ad Nauseum, Burn, Infect, Affinity, Suicide Zoo. It may not be maindeck worthy but it certainly has a place in this archetype. This creature gets its maximum value against decks that struggle to get the card you exiled back. It is also important to note that uncounterable spells like Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict get hit by this guy. Also the CMC 4 or less clause is perfect in modern as that will hit virtually every card in the format with a few exceptions. Spell Queller is also great against counterspells as them getting the counterspell back with no spells on the stack gives them no value.

Has anyone considered Spell Queller? It's definitely a card I plan on testing.

Is anyone else testing with Thing in the Ice and having any success?
I just went 3-1 at my local FNM. Here is my current list:



Round 1 1-0(2-0) against Burn: Thing in the Ice was huge in this matchup soaking up some creature damage and letting me turn the corner once it transformed. In the second game, Thing in the Ice was killed through a block plus a bolt. I shredded the burn player's hand with discard taking away 2 eidolons. I was lucky enough to draw Kalitas and close the game out.

Round 2 2-0(2-0) against Merfolk: These games tended to drag out so I don't remember all the specifics but all the creature removal (Terminate, Kolaghan's Command) also flashbacked by Snapcaster killed all the Merfolk Lords. Pia and Kiran Nalaar came down and stabilized the board nicely. In game 2, Izzet Staticaster did a ton of work killing plenty of Silvergill Adept and Master of Waves tokens. I was also able to get the opponent's Spellskite into play under my control with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.

Round 3 3-0(2-0) against Elves. Both games I was super lucky to draw Night of Soul's Betrayal. A few bolts and terminates were enough to slow down the opponent. Night of Soul's Betrayal was just disgusting against elves.

Round 4 3-1(1-2) against Grixis Delver. These were very grindy games with plenty of discard, removal, snapcaster into removal type games. Game 1 I stumbled on mana and fell behind and lost to an early Gurmag Angler. In game 2, I was able to take over with Pia and Kiran Nalaar to stabilize followed up by flipping a Thing in the Ice with countermagic backup to close out the game in 2 turns. Game 3 involved me mulliganing to 5 and just losing the war of attrition. I only saw 1 Terminate in these 3 games which is an essential card to take out the delve creatures.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the deck and was definitely lucky to run into some good matchups. Thing in the Ice was instrumental in both wins against burn and helped me turn the corner in a close game against Grixis Delver. I'm going to continue to test it out. It seems good in my meta where there seems to be a lack of removal. Tasigur, the Golden Fang was insanely good in the games that he showed up in. I'm gonna look to make room for a second despite the anti-synergy with Thing in the Ice. Playing Inquisition of Kozilek targetting a hellbent opponent triggering the transform of TitI and removing their best creature felt very dirty :). I've been considering Spell Snare although I'm not sure how necessary it is for a local FNM level of play.

Quote from guitar90x »

how should u sideboard against merfolk. what are our weak cards and what are strong sideboard cards. im losing alot to it. they have hurkyls abd chalice.

How many games have you played against Merfolk? It tends to be one of our best matchups. Vault Skirge is one of the key cards when it comes to racing the Merfolk opponent whether he is getting pumped by Arcbound Ravager modular, Steel Overseer or Cranial Plating. I would side board in any extra removal that you have( Dismember, Galvanic Blast, or Dispatch). Be sure to always focus down the lords with the spot removal too. If you run Whipflare in your SB, that card can be amazing as well.

I'm seeing a lot of Dakmor Salvage in the lists going 5-0. I've never tried this card myself. What has been everyone's experience with the card for those who have used it before? I guess it works nicely for more all-in dredge style lists. I'm still hesitant to use it as it comes in tapped and only adds B in a low land count deck that is really colour hungry.

Lotleth Troll has always been a core piece of the deck for me. I've never considered going below 4. It's a zombie who discards our dredge creatures, Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Prized Amalgam for value. He can grow out of bolt range against the red decks. He has regenerate which comes up quite often as well as trample to close games out quickly. Lotleth Troll can also wins games through graveyard hate with a massive trample, regenerating body. Rotting Rats can be a strong piece in the deck for insurance for casting Gravecrawler but it should not come at the cost of Lotleth Trolls in the list. The 1/1 body on Rotting Rats is also very underwhelming. While a strong enabler, I would never consider running a full playset.

Hello all,

I currently do not own any Ancestral Vision but I am trying out the new Thing In The Ice.

Here is my current list:



I currently do not run any Spell Snare or Mana Leak and I feel as though they should be in my maindeck but I'm struggling to find room for them. The one Cryptic Command has played nicely so far with Snappy letting you run virtually more than one copy. Also, I rarely see Rise // Fall in lists anymore. Why has this card fallen out of favour? Does it only work in the 4 Thought Scour + Delve creature lists? Casting Fall while removing the last counter of TitI seems pretty dirty. How should I skew my list if I don't plan on having any Ancestral Visions? I'm fairly new to the archetype moving over from UR delver so any tips and advice is greatly appreciated.

• I don't think Insolent Neonate is a 4 of in a deck with just 4 Dredge cards. Part of the appeal of the Neonate, is dredging on the first turn into more dredge cards, which means a large graveyard earlier in the game.
• I think Prized Amalgam deserves to be a 4 of in almost all Dredgevine decks, whether Jund or Sultai. There are just so many ways for it to be returned to play: Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts, even Vengevines can trigger the Amalgam.
• I've never been a huge fan of Gurmag Angler (so maybe my opinion isn't that great) but with the addition of Bloodghasts and Prized Amalgams and actually dredge cards, there are a lot less good options to delve away, and in the past part of me felt like dying after I delved away a Faithless Looting or a Gravecrawler.
• There is almost no reason to run the Mountain. You can always say you want to search out the mountain so you can cast faithless looting or neonate on turn 1 but that means you can't play Lotleth Troll/Abrupt Decay on turn 2. I do see you're not running Verdant Catacomb so I can sort of understand the rationale behind the mountain but I don't think it's optimal.
• It's been brought up to me before that Grisly Salvage finds Gurmag Angler but Satyr Wayfinder doesn't. I love Wayfinder so maybe that negatively affects my opinion on the Angler.

Thanks for the pointers, I'll keep that in mind. I think I'm going to go up to 4 Golgari Grave-Troll and 2 Stinkweed Imp in terms of dredge cards. My experience with the actual dredge mechanic is pretty limited. As a general rule, if there are no zombies in hand or on the battlefield and we only have 1 creature to cast in hand to trigger Vengevine, is it best not to dredge? My thinking behind this is there is nothing that can be milled off the top of the deck to help trigger Vengevine. We could still mill for the new Bloodghast - Prized Amalgam interaction but that gameplan seems secondary to me.

I'm trying to fit more dredge cards, Insolent Neonate, and Prized Amalgam into my list. I've completely dropped Grisly Salvage (I used to run the full 4) and I've shaved certain other creatures that do not care about being in the graveyard. I'm still avoiding the all-in gameplan which can have some very clunky opening hands. I know I'm missing some fetches for my manabase and it is not ideal.



I would like to keep some interaction in the form of Abrupt Decay and I could not cut all of the Satyr Wayfinder as they have proven too useful for me in finding the 3rd land drop, triggering Vengevine and filling the yard. What do you all think of the list?

For the players maindecking both Thing in the Ice and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, have you found the interaction between the two too detrimental? Or is it one of those scenarios where losing all of Kalitas' zombie tokens (potentially counters as well) is acceptable because you can now bash with a 7/8 and Kalitas is too important for the aggressive matchups?
My creature base is currently:
4 Snapcaster
3 TitI
1 Tasigur
2 Pia and Kiran

Kalitas seems to be getting very high praise from the Grixis players and I was trying to find room for it in my list.

Quote from Balron »

Um.. well.. I keep running into fkin abzan kiki-angels. Haven't found a way how to win that one yet.

Rending Volley might be able to help you there. I've cut them from my SB since Twin has been banned but it is a great removal spell for Restoration Angel that punches through countermagic. I also run 2 Grim Lavamancer which kills Kiki, Scooze, and other pesky creatures.

How are the Jund players using Prized Amalgam supporting the card in terms of their manabases. I have yet to test out the card yet. The issue with adding one shock splashing blue is the chances of milling it over are decent in which case I will no longer have access to blue mana (I do not run Birds of Paradise). Life From the Loam is also something which is only found in my SB. Is 4 Lotleth Troll and 4 Faithless Looting enough to reliably being able to avoid casting Prized Amalgam. How all-in does the dredging need to be for this card to be a worthy inclusion? I currently run very little dredge (2 Stinkweed Imp and 0 Golgari Grave-Troll) as I have a list that has more cards that can actually be cast from the hand.

Hey all,

I've just made the transition from UR Delver to Grixis Control. I am currently working on a Thing In the Ice list. I'm trying to narrow down which SB cards I should use for land destruction. There is a small inner struggle in the deck as TitI and Snapcaster Mage want to maximize instants/ sorceries (Crumble to Dust, Molten Rain) and Kolaghan's Command (3 copies) and Rise // Fall (1 copy) would prefer the LD to be from a creature source (Fulminator Mage). I currently have 2 slots available for LD. Which combination of SB cards should I use?

As a side note, I am also unsure of Crumble to Dust being both 4CMC and sorcery-speed.

No one has mentioned Night of Souls' Betrayal. This card also does work against Affinity, Infect, and BW tokens.