I wanted to start a discussion about red card draw. The idea here is that the deck is mono red or red is the color doing the card draw. Just to get this out of the way I don't consider browbeat to be card draw. 90% of the time people will take the damage and you won't get any cards. I also have no interest in talking about wheel of fortune. Its banned or restricted in most formats, so yea I get that its good. For the purpose of this thread lets assume the deck has to be legacy legal.
Also, I am just giving my opinion on these cards to start things off. I want other people's thoughts. This is not meant to be a guide its meant to be a discussion. I myself need advice and struggle as to which to pick and when. If you like a card I didn't list here then feel free to add it.
Wheel of fate: The good is that it will give you 7 cards and you will have all your mana open the turn it comes into play. The bad is that it helps your opponents and the later you draw into it the worst it is. Playing it turn 2 gets you the cards on turn 6. Not too bad. Playing on turn 6 gets you the cards on turn 10. Not so good. I feel like you kinda need card draw to help you get this card draw. This card is best in a deck where you will quickly drop your hand. Something that runs lots of low costed stuff. Honestly, even then giving all my opponents 7 cards scares me.
faithless looting Pro: Its only one mana, it has flash back so you can use it again later, and while you do have to discard you get to draw first and then you pick what you get rid of. So its not random. The bad is you end up down cards. faithless looting plus the 2 cards you discard is 3 cards total. You drew 2 cards. So, with the exception of something like madness you can't use this if its the only card in your hand as you would draw 2 and then just discard those 2. Its use is when you need specific cards, not for replenishing your hand (like i said it actually depletes it) The deck that runs this either needs to put together a combo or just needs to find solutions to problems.
dangerous wager This is a much less potent but much safer version of wheel of fate It doesn't help your opponents at all, it can be cast whenever you need it, and since its an instant all of your mana will be free since you cast it at the end of the opponents turn. Downside is it only gives you 2 cards instead of 7. The deck that would run this is a deck that depletes its hand quickly and is unaffected by the downside.
desperate ravings The flashback doesn't mean anything to me since it costs blue and if my deck had blue in it I would never run this card. Unlike faithless looting you end up with just as many cards as you started so you can cast it even if its the only card in your hand. The danger is that the fewer cards you have the more likely you are to discard the thing you need. Still, if you are running it to to help insure you have general things then it can work. Example: you run it just to help make sure you don't miss a 3rd turn land drop. Or you run it to help make sure you get another one of your 12 board wipes. Times when your deck has lots of what you want so its not a massive disaster if the thing ends up being discarded.
tibalt, the fiend-blooded Haven't run tibalt so I don't have any personal experience with him but I see potential. To me he is red's closest thing to merfolk looter and I have a tremendous amount of respect for merfolk looter (Yes I know merfolk looter lets you pick the card you discard but this is red not blue). His middle ability seems blatantly bad to me. His ultimate ability seems perfectly usable to me, kinda just a bonus. Would love feedback on people who ran him. I assume he is like desperate ravings in that the deck that runs him isn't looking for specific things but general smoothing. Help in not missing a land drop, help in not miss a creature drop.
tormenting voice You can't use this if its the only card in your hand, and its a sorcery not an instant. Upside is you pick what is discarded and your not down cards. Might be bad luck but when I have tried running this either I haven't had another card in my hand so I couldn't use it, or the fact that its a sorcery and used up 2 of my mana has always made this card seem really slow to me. Would love feedback from others who have run it.
Again, this is meant to be a discussion not a guide. If you disagree with what I have said then tell me. If you like a card I didn't mention then let us know what it is, if you think something I mentioned us unplayable then let me know why.
Is when someone kills your creature in response to it being targeted by Flickering Ward at which point you're left with a deck consisting of 52 blank cards.
Thinking of making a budget heroic deck. I made one of these a while ago but it just didn't work. Some things have changed since, and i'm thinking of giving it another shot.
Problem 1: Most of the low costed cards only worked when they were targeted. This meant that I played creatures with abilities but never had their abilities actually go off making them a complete waist. Its still problem but Blessed Spirits helps solve that. It can be cast reasonably early, it doesn't care what I target, and is a great pair with the other low costed non selfish card phalanx leader.
Problem 2: My old deck lacked a powerful end game finisher. Sigil of the empty throne was expensive and out of my budget. I was left with the poor man's version ajani's chosen. I don't think I have to explain the difference between a 4/4 flier and a 2/2. Sigil of the empty throne has been reprinted twice recently and is now worth virtually nothing. Plus an enchantment is harder for my opponents to kill then a creature.
Problem 3: The deck is powered by casting Flickering Ward over and over and over. This takes up my mana. The deck walks a thin line between casting new creatures and just recasting flickering ward. The deck is almost crying out for something like Prophet of Kruphix though I don't know of anything like it I could actually run.
As a reminder, this deck is very budget. Would love any thoughts.
I'm finally getting around to updating my Scry deck back from Theros block. I really like this deck though I openly admit its not the best thing ever. The deck was originally standard legal but not I'm looking to make it Legacy legal (though i'm not sure it will actually change all that much).
Its useful to know what we play. Usually its team games. 2v2, 2v2v2, 3v3, emperor. FFA games are normally things like pentagram rather then just full blown large ffas.
One of the things I really like about the deck is that depending on how the game is going I can either be a heavy hitter (swinging for 20 unblock-able is not uncommon) or supporting my allies by making their creatures unblock-able, gain double strike, or just make them bigger.
The number of each card in the deck is a place holder. The number of each thing I should run is one of the things I would love advice on. With Scrying I can put things I don't want on the bottom so I could see running 4 of stuff. At the same time since I am Scrying a lot I could see running less copies since I can put things I don't want on the bottom so i'm more likely to find what I need.
I'm open to suggestions as to what to add or change but I do want it to remain a dedicated scry deck. I have tried knowledge and power but its just way too slow. Can't cast it till turn 5 because the deck has no mana excel and even then it can't actually do anything till turn 6. I have also tried StormCaller of keranos but I never seem to have the mana to make good use of its ability.
I am strongly considering retreat to coralhelm With fetch lands or temple of epiphany it will trigger two scrys. I also like the ability to tap and untap to support my allies. Furthermore when I run the deck I often find myself putting lands on the bottom since they don't scry. This at times makes the deck short on mana. Having all the lands also scry would let me draw mana more often.
Anyway would love suggestions. The deck is a lot of fun but I would love for it to become more effective.
Investigate is the most interesting mechanic wizards has made in a long time. It feels very different then other stuff. I really want to make a deck around it, but I just don't see how it comes together. All these cards that either investigate or cause effects when you investigate just don't keep you alive. How do you stop the other players from just killing you? I also don't see any obvious win condition. If you can make a deck that very effectively generates investigate tokens then tamiyo's journal seems powerful, but what do you search for? Again, investigate seems cool and it seems fun but its cards just seems to sit there doing nothing to keep you alive and nothing to win you the game.
Am I missing something? How do you guys see this all coming together?
voice of resurgence does not seem anywhere near worth it to me. $35 each. If you are ever playing a ffa or a game with more then 2 teams nobody will ever cast anything on your turn (except maybe counter spell) so its ability won't trigger. It will take forever to create an army of them and even when you do they don't have trample or flying and so they can be chump blocked all day long. They do nothing if exiled and are also easily taken care of by things like wrath of god. Its true that this is a valuable card, but it functions in a deck very different then yours in a format very different then multiplayer.
If it was cheap I could see running it, but at $35 each and in this deck I don't see it ever being worth it.
While they "can" act at Sorcery speed
What I was trying to say is they can still act at instant speed on other players turns. Just not yours. 5 player ffa. They can still instant speed all they want for 3 of their 4 opponents. Often a player does instant speed stuff at the end of the person's turn right before them. Unless he is that person they can pretty much act at instant speed during opponents turns all they want. Its effect and punishment is immensely reduced.
Voice of resurgence is powerful in 1v1 because it does turn instants into sorceries. In ffa or games with more then 2 teams it no longer does that.
Also, "After all, you don't put the card Doom Blade in your deck to randomly kill a creature for no reason. You're usually saving it to nail something." Voice of resurgence appears to be his primary win condition. Who wouldn't want to doom blade a nuisance that is also a win condition?
voice of resurgence does not seem anywhere near worth it to me. $35 each. If you are ever playing a ffa or a game with more then 2 teams nobody will ever cast anything on your turn (except maybe counter spell) so its ability won't trigger. It will take forever to create an army of them and even when you do they don't have trample or flying and so they can be chump blocked all day long. They do nothing if exiled and are also easily taken care of by things like wrath of god. Its true that this is a valuable card, but it functions in a deck very different then yours in a format very different then multiplayer.
If it was cheap I could see running it, but at $35 each and in this deck I don't see it ever being worth it.
What I enjoy the most is going to a store, looking through their bulk rares, and then building decks around cards that I like. Now I know you didn't have a good experience at your local store. I would suggest finding another store within a reasonable distance and going there.
The problem with theme decks is they are not your own. I know I have much more fun playing and wining with my own deck then I do playing something someone else built. Obviously I'm not you but I would think its a somewhat universal feeling.
Once I found a card that I liked and wanted to build around I would post here to get suggestions on how to make that card work best.
I feel like you don't have enough low costed creatures to warrant 4 smothering abominations. I would either increase the number of low costed creatures or decrease the number of abominations. The few low costed creatures you have you don't want to sacrifice.
mortician beetle can be used as a sacrifice or can be used as a attacker/blocker depending on how the game goes. Carrier thrall is low costed and still gives you something after its dead. tenacious dead can be sacrificed over and over reassembling skeleton same
-3x Ancestral Knowledge +3x Mystic Remora. The card is bonkers enough as is but toss in a bunch of cards that can bounce it and suddenly you're drawing 2-3 cards per circuit. Recurring it costs 1 less than the Knowledge and I'd always draw a ton more cards than "stack my draws" so to speak.
-2x Scourge + 2x Kederekt Leviathan. It always bounces everything and re-buying your ETB triggers is usually a good thing. Scourge seems a bit too dicey in a 10 Plains deck.
Mystic Remora is an interesting idea. Definitely worth considering. I play mostly 2v2, pentagram, 2v2v2, 3v3, and emperor (in emperor we play that global stuff only effects your range) You feel that in those types of formats it gives enough card draw to be worth it? Kederekt Leviathan would likely upset my team mates and therefore I probably shouldn't run it. Would be kinda funny....till my own team terminates it.
Ever since lavinia of the tenth came out I wanted to do something with it. Then when mirror mockery came out I wanted to do something with both of them. Yet I could never build a decent deck around them. Now with reflector mage I once again want this to somehow come together. This is what I got right now. It desperately needs help.
This deck is extremely budget. I see no point in running expensive cards to support really silly worthless cards.
I have reality acid and blood clock in play. On my opponent's turn blood clock triggers during their upkeep and they return the creature with reality acid on it to their hand. Does the creature get returned to their hand or does reality acid then trigger in response killing the creature?
I have a populate deck and its a lot of fun. I have difficulty giving advice about this deck because I would just turn it into my deck. That said, i'll give it a shot. I know multiplayer metas vary drastically between playgroups but running caller of the pack with no mana excel or card advantage (I don't count nissa as she would never live long enough to get her ultimate in my group) seems problematic to me. Realistically you will have 7 mana on turn 9 or 10? Then they have to live long enough to actually attack, multiple times. I would have killed you long before that.
I know you like rhys the redeemed but unless i'm missing something (which is certainly possible) it just seems like a less effective version of parallel lives in this deck. Doesn't parallel lives double the tokens from myriad every turn for a one time cost that is less then rhys's ability anyway?
I really like populate but it seems like you want a Myriad deck. I'm not really sure what the populate cards are gaining you.
I really like holdout settlement. In the right deck it can be a great budget mana smoother. Decks that run creatures that do not attack or block won't mind tapping them. Creatures like blood artist for example.
More then that, I also love cards that turn a downside into an upside. The tap "downside" can be used to stop creatures with "attacks each turn if able" from having to attack. It can be used with things like inspired (king macar, the gold-cursed) or the untap mechanic from eventide and shadowmoor (gilder bairn).
The decks that would run this either lose virtually nothing or even gain from it. Best of all its a common so it won't cost you any money.
Also, I am just giving my opinion on these cards to start things off. I want other people's thoughts. This is not meant to be a guide its meant to be a discussion. I myself need advice and struggle as to which to pick and when. If you like a card I didn't list here then feel free to add it.
Wheel of fate: The good is that it will give you 7 cards and you will have all your mana open the turn it comes into play. The bad is that it helps your opponents and the later you draw into it the worst it is. Playing it turn 2 gets you the cards on turn 6. Not too bad. Playing on turn 6 gets you the cards on turn 10. Not so good. I feel like you kinda need card draw to help you get this card draw. This card is best in a deck where you will quickly drop your hand. Something that runs lots of low costed stuff. Honestly, even then giving all my opponents 7 cards scares me.
faithless looting Pro: Its only one mana, it has flash back so you can use it again later, and while you do have to discard you get to draw first and then you pick what you get rid of. So its not random. The bad is you end up down cards. faithless looting plus the 2 cards you discard is 3 cards total. You drew 2 cards. So, with the exception of something like madness you can't use this if its the only card in your hand as you would draw 2 and then just discard those 2. Its use is when you need specific cards, not for replenishing your hand (like i said it actually depletes it) The deck that runs this either needs to put together a combo or just needs to find solutions to problems.
dangerous wager This is a much less potent but much safer version of wheel of fate It doesn't help your opponents at all, it can be cast whenever you need it, and since its an instant all of your mana will be free since you cast it at the end of the opponents turn. Downside is it only gives you 2 cards instead of 7. The deck that would run this is a deck that depletes its hand quickly and is unaffected by the downside.
desperate ravings The flashback doesn't mean anything to me since it costs blue and if my deck had blue in it I would never run this card. Unlike faithless looting you end up with just as many cards as you started so you can cast it even if its the only card in your hand. The danger is that the fewer cards you have the more likely you are to discard the thing you need. Still, if you are running it to to help insure you have general things then it can work. Example: you run it just to help make sure you don't miss a 3rd turn land drop. Or you run it to help make sure you get another one of your 12 board wipes. Times when your deck has lots of what you want so its not a massive disaster if the thing ends up being discarded.
tibalt, the fiend-blooded Haven't run tibalt so I don't have any personal experience with him but I see potential. To me he is red's closest thing to merfolk looter and I have a tremendous amount of respect for merfolk looter (Yes I know merfolk looter lets you pick the card you discard but this is red not blue). His middle ability seems blatantly bad to me. His ultimate ability seems perfectly usable to me, kinda just a bonus. Would love feedback on people who ran him. I assume he is like desperate ravings in that the deck that runs him isn't looking for specific things but general smoothing. Help in not missing a land drop, help in not miss a creature drop.
tormenting voice You can't use this if its the only card in your hand, and its a sorcery not an instant. Upside is you pick what is discarded and your not down cards. Might be bad luck but when I have tried running this either I haven't had another card in my hand so I couldn't use it, or the fact that its a sorcery and used up 2 of my mana has always made this card seem really slow to me. Would love feedback from others who have run it.
Again, this is meant to be a discussion not a guide. If you disagree with what I have said then tell me. If you like a card I didn't mention then let us know what it is, if you think something I mentioned us unplayable then let me know why.
Instant speed removal is pretty uncommon in my group. It exists but isn't all that prevalent. I could drop Setessan Battle Priest in favor of devoted caretaker, mother of runes, or grand abolisher. Devoted caretaker is the most budget friendly of the bunch though I don't like that it needs mana for its ability.
Sadly none of them can be fit it the $10 budget I gave the deck though.
Problem 1: Most of the low costed cards only worked when they were targeted. This meant that I played creatures with abilities but never had their abilities actually go off making them a complete waist. Its still problem but Blessed Spirits helps solve that. It can be cast reasonably early, it doesn't care what I target, and is a great pair with the other low costed non selfish card phalanx leader.
Problem 2: My old deck lacked a powerful end game finisher. Sigil of the empty throne was expensive and out of my budget. I was left with the poor man's version ajani's chosen. I don't think I have to explain the difference between a 4/4 flier and a 2/2. Sigil of the empty throne has been reprinted twice recently and is now worth virtually nothing. Plus an enchantment is harder for my opponents to kill then a creature.
Problem 3: The deck is powered by casting Flickering Ward over and over and over. This takes up my mana. The deck walks a thin line between casting new creatures and just recasting flickering ward. The deck is almost crying out for something like Prophet of Kruphix though I don't know of anything like it I could actually run.
As a reminder, this deck is very budget. Would love any thoughts.
4 Phalanx Leader
3 Setessan Battle Priest
3 Vanguard of Brimaz
3 archetype of courage
4 blessed Spirits
4 heliod's Pilgrim
3 mesa enchantress
3 celestial ancient
4 Flickering Ward
2 livewire lash
3 Sigil of the empty throne
Lands
24 Plains
The deck's biggest problem will be not getting Flickering Ward or heliod's pilgrim. The Free mulligan plus the recent Scry rule will help solve that.
Would love feedback.
Its useful to know what we play. Usually its team games. 2v2, 2v2v2, 3v3, emperor. FFA games are normally things like pentagram rather then just full blown large ffas.
One of the things I really like about the deck is that depending on how the game is going I can either be a heavy hitter (swinging for 20 unblock-able is not uncommon) or supporting my allies by making their creatures unblock-able, gain double strike, or just make them bigger.
The number of each card in the deck is a place holder. The number of each thing I should run is one of the things I would love advice on. With Scrying I can put things I don't want on the bottom so I could see running 4 of stuff. At the same time since I am Scrying a lot I could see running less copies since I can put things I don't want on the bottom so i'm more likely to find what I need.
1 flamespeaker adept
1 shu yun, the silent tempest
support creatures
1 sigiled skink
1 sigiled starfish
1 thassa, god of the sea
1 Aqueous form
1 titan's strength
1 magma jet
1 voyage's end
1 stubborn denial
4 temple of epiphany
20 other lands
I'm open to suggestions as to what to add or change but I do want it to remain a dedicated scry deck. I have tried knowledge and power but its just way too slow. Can't cast it till turn 5 because the deck has no mana excel and even then it can't actually do anything till turn 6. I have also tried StormCaller of keranos but I never seem to have the mana to make good use of its ability.
I am strongly considering retreat to coralhelm With fetch lands or temple of epiphany it will trigger two scrys. I also like the ability to tap and untap to support my allies. Furthermore when I run the deck I often find myself putting lands on the bottom since they don't scry. This at times makes the deck short on mana. Having all the lands also scry would let me draw mana more often.
Anyway would love suggestions. The deck is a lot of fun but I would love for it to become more effective.
Am I missing something? How do you guys see this all coming together?
What I was trying to say is they can still act at instant speed on other players turns. Just not yours. 5 player ffa. They can still instant speed all they want for 3 of their 4 opponents. Often a player does instant speed stuff at the end of the person's turn right before them. Unless he is that person they can pretty much act at instant speed during opponents turns all they want. Its effect and punishment is immensely reduced.
Voice of resurgence is powerful in 1v1 because it does turn instants into sorceries. In ffa or games with more then 2 teams it no longer does that.
Also, "After all, you don't put the card Doom Blade in your deck to randomly kill a creature for no reason. You're usually saving it to nail something." Voice of resurgence appears to be his primary win condition. Who wouldn't want to doom blade a nuisance that is also a win condition?
If it was cheap I could see running it, but at $35 each and in this deck I don't see it ever being worth it.
The problem with theme decks is they are not your own. I know I have much more fun playing and wining with my own deck then I do playing something someone else built. Obviously I'm not you but I would think its a somewhat universal feeling.
Once I found a card that I liked and wanted to build around I would post here to get suggestions on how to make that card work best.
mortician beetle can be used as a sacrifice or can be used as a attacker/blocker depending on how the game goes.
Carrier thrall is low costed and still gives you something after its dead.
tenacious dead can be sacrificed over and over
reassembling skeleton same
Also, pawn of ulamog seems like it would be good in the deck. So does sidisi, undead vizier
Mystic Remora is an interesting idea. Definitely worth considering. I play mostly 2v2, pentagram, 2v2v2, 3v3, and emperor (in emperor we play that global stuff only effects your range) You feel that in those types of formats it gives enough card draw to be worth it? Kederekt Leviathan would likely upset my team mates and therefore I probably shouldn't run it. Would be kinda funny....till my own team terminates it.
This deck is extremely budget. I see no point in running expensive cards to support really silly worthless cards.
4 vedalken mastermind
4 lyev skyknight
4 reflector mage
4 lavinia of the tenth
2 scourge of fleets
3 ancestral knowledge
4 mirror mockery
4 talisman of progress
4 reality acid
3 blood clock
14 island
10 plains
Thanks in advance for the help.
I know you like rhys the redeemed but unless i'm missing something (which is certainly possible) it just seems like a less effective version of parallel lives in this deck. Doesn't parallel lives double the tokens from myriad every turn for a one time cost that is less then rhys's ability anyway?
I really like populate but it seems like you want a Myriad deck. I'm not really sure what the populate cards are gaining you.
More then that, I also love cards that turn a downside into an upside. The tap "downside" can be used to stop creatures with "attacks each turn if able" from having to attack. It can be used with things like inspired (king macar, the gold-cursed) or the untap mechanic from eventide and shadowmoor (gilder bairn).
The decks that would run this either lose virtually nothing or even gain from it. Best of all its a common so it won't cost you any money.