I will never cut this card ust because of how much I love Gifts Ungiven. I'm actually about to add Intuition to my list as well.
It has gotten additional stock with the introduction of Thassa's Oracle as well. I've already seen a deck mill themselves with Doom Whisperer to hit Unburial Rites + Thassa's Oracle and kill
I mean, I think Dack Fayden would still be a great cube card if you replaced the steal the artifact with the instant speed phase out. Add a mana, remove a color. I'll be slamming this into my list. Don't think it's a top 25% cube caard by any means, but I do think it should make most 450+ lists.
Dack is double loot, and stealing an artifact is HUGE. The play pattern of your opponent playing a turn 2 signet, you playing dack and stealing it is common and powerful. I don't think I'd play dack if you replaced his steal with this phase ability.
Maybe that's where we differ: I would play Dack if he literally just had the plus 1. I think he would still be the top3 Izzet cards if he just had the +1.
Loot 1 twice isn't as good as loot 2, but it's pretty darn close and it's super nice that you can threaten phasing activation, but loot if you don't have to.
My gut tells me the 4 mana, 3 loyalty, defense is a -3 thing is going to be a problem. I think they he will be fine, even interesting but it is not like 3feri or JtMS. I think it is probably still lower than Jace AoT, Will Kenrith and Tamiyo.
You get two activations per turn cycle. So you play it, +1 to 4 loyalty. On opponents turn, you protect with -3, leaving Teferi at 1 loyalty. Isn't this the exact same play pattern as T3feri and JTMS?
I mean, I think Dack Fayden would still be a great cube card if you replaced the steal the artifact with the instant speed phase out. Add a mana, remove a color. I'll be slamming this into my list. Don't think it's a top 25% cube caard by any means, but I do think it should make most 450+ lists.
It requires way too much setup. Let's assume that if you can get this to trigger on turn 4, it's very good, and if you can't then it's dramatically less good.
You have to have a deck with enough non-humans that you draw and cast one before turn 4.
You have to have a deck with enough humans that it actually finds one in the top six cards.
So that means you've got around 11 cards to see a non-human (starting 7 plus 4 draws), and 6 cards to see a human.
Side note: I did the math, and the correct ratio for this is roughly 1.5 humans to 1 non-human.
So if you're running 18 creatures (seems a little high), 10 of them are humans, 7 of them are non-humans, and 1 of them is Winota, you're about a 77% chance for this to go off on turn 4. That's realistically the ceiling.
I'll do a quick chart.
Creatures - Humans - Non-Humans - Turn 4 Trigger %
20 --- 11 --- 08 --- 83%
20 --- 12 --- 07 --- 83%
19 --- 11 --- 07 --- 80%
18 --- 10 --- 07 --- 77%
17 --- 09 --- 07 --- 74%
17 --- 10 --- 06 --- 74%
16 --- 09 --- 06 --- 70%
15 --- 08 --- 06 --- 67%
So if you manage to go heavy on the creatures, and you can run exactly the right human to non-human ratio, this card will still be a vanilla 4/4 like one out of five times.
I guess the value goes up if you have multiple non-humans at the same time, so that's something. But the card is so useless on an empty board, and it requires such an awkward deck building restriction that I just don't think it's good.
Even more awkward because humans tend to be smaller than non-humans, so most of the time you're going to be using your big creatures to cheat out your little creatures.
One important note is that you can push for a humans + non-humans theme to allow some really good overlap. For example, Forbidden Friendship may be a great cube inclusion if you include this card. Gives a non-human attacker with a human body to benefit from lords. Blade Splicer is the best cube-staple-example of cards like this, and I will be looking for more.
When I find the time, I'll do an actual simulation rather than probabilities to come up with an eval metric. Since 77% for one trigger is not great for sure. However, if two triggers is reasonably common (e.g. 40%), that's by far the best Ranger of Eos variant we've ever seen and I will include it.
Note: if somebody else wants to mess around with the simulation and knows python, I've been working on a quick and easy framework for it as of yesterday. See the code repository HERE.
I have a human theme, which makes this a SLAM DUNK! Humans decks are rarely all humans. Usually there's a solid set of non-humans, especially tokens. The fact that human lords can get thrown in makes this awesome!
Unlike Lutri, you actually have to jump through hoops to get one of the most absurd cards possible. Furthermore, unlike Lutri, this card is a super solid playable in any creature midrange or aggro deck. So you don't need to hit Companion for it to be good enough. I think that adds up to a card that I'm stoked to include. Won't be too good like Lutri, but has an incredibly high ceiling and a reasonable floor!
Edit: I missed restriction only cares about permanents. The restriction might be too easy to hit, and could certainly be too good. UGH.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think this card is just worse than Squee, Goblin Nabob. You have to be able to cast it to get the value. You can't get the value early (e.g. turn 1 faithless looting, turn 3 dack, turn 2 collective brutality, etc.). And, to top that all off, you lose your engine to any piece of interaction, where Squee is incredibly resilient.
I think it's a flashy squee that looks like you can get more value and that it can be a win-con. But I expect decks that abuse this card would rather have Squee. Just a hunch, but I no longer plan on testing it.
Yeah I was saying it would get ETB draw a card. I would cube it in a heartbeat. And I wanted to show that it’s approximately 2.5 times better than that card via abstract napkin math lol. Sounds like we’re on the same page, wtwlf123
I want to include this card so bad, but I just don't want to cut an Izzet card. It's close enough that a keyword ability or a 4th point of toughness would make me test it. As is, I'm just not sure there's a card I'm willing to cut.
The only point of my calculations was to demonstrate the magnitude of difference access 100% of the time means. If you think the card is actually bad (I don't) then yeah it doesn't matter. But given that I would cube the card in a heartbeat without it in my opening hand, the 100% access makes it seem absurd to me.
Yeah it's quick napkin math, but I think it properly demonstrated my point.
It has gotten additional stock with the introduction of Thassa's Oracle as well. I've already seen a deck mill themselves with Doom Whisperer to hit Unburial Rites + Thassa's Oracle and kill
Maybe that's where we differ: I would play Dack if he literally just had the plus 1. I think he would still be the top3 Izzet cards if he just had the +1.
Loot 1 twice isn't as good as loot 2, but it's pretty darn close and it's super nice that you can threaten phasing activation, but loot if you don't have to.
You get two activations per turn cycle. So you play it, +1 to 4 loyalty. On opponents turn, you protect with -3, leaving Teferi at 1 loyalty. Isn't this the exact same play pattern as T3feri and JTMS?
TL;DR
Deck: 16 lands, 9 humans, 8 non-humans, 1 Winota, 6 other.
Avg # hits when cast: 1.65
Avg turn cast: 5
Complete misses: 14%
Edit: I have to say these numbers make me a lot more excited for the card!!
One important note is that you can push for a humans + non-humans theme to allow some really good overlap. For example, Forbidden Friendship may be a great cube inclusion if you include this card. Gives a non-human attacker with a human body to benefit from lords. Blade Splicer is the best cube-staple-example of cards like this, and I will be looking for more.
When I find the time, I'll do an actual simulation rather than probabilities to come up with an eval metric. Since 77% for one trigger is not great for sure. However, if two triggers is reasonably common (e.g. 40%), that's by far the best Ranger of Eos variant we've ever seen and I will include it.
Note: if somebody else wants to mess around with the simulation and knows python, I've been working on a quick and easy framework for it as of yesterday. See the code repository HERE.
Trying out, but likely will cut for being too good, or just not liking them aesthetically:
- COMPANIONS
Confident to stay a long time:
- Shark Typhoon
- Heartless Act
- General Kudro of Drannith
Hope they are good enough to stay a long time:
- Vivien, Monster's Advocate
- Luminous Broodmoth
- Fire Prophecy
- Fiend Artisan
Considering testing, but unsure:
- Neutralize
- Wilt
- Titanoth Rex
----------------------------
For my Combat Cube:
Confident to stay a long time:
- Sea-Dasher Octopus
- Fight as One
- Swallow Whole
- Fire Prophecy
- Sprite Dragon
Hope they are good enough to stay a long time:
- Flourishing Fox (considering small cycle theme)
Considering testing, but unsure:
- Bastion of Remembrance
- Neutralize
- Splendor Mare
- Reconnaissance Mission
SLAM DUNK!!
Unlike Lutri, you actually have to jump through hoops to get one of the most absurd cards possible. Furthermore, unlike Lutri, this card is a super solid playable in any creature midrange or aggro deck. So you don't need to hit Companion for it to be good enough. I think that adds up to a card that I'm stoked to include. Won't be too good like Lutri, but has an incredibly high ceiling and a reasonable floor!
Edit: I missed restriction only cares about permanents. The restriction might be too easy to hit, and could certainly be too good. UGH.
I think it's a flashy squee that looks like you can get more value and that it can be a win-con. But I expect decks that abuse this card would rather have Squee. Just a hunch, but I no longer plan on testing it.
I really liked the idea of that U cycler 5/5 hexproof, but the body was too embarrassing. Cycling on my reanimation target is amazing.
Yeah it's quick napkin math, but I think it properly demonstrated my point.