I think this card is very, very, very good. I also think taking it over power (real power like moxen, sol ring, lotus, crypt) would be insane. I think it's easily a first-pick quality card in my cube (vintage unpowered), but there are also still cards I would pick over it - JTMS, recurring nightmare, mind twist, 4cmc gideon, maybe fractured identity, and probably more I'm forgetting.
I think this card is great. I'm not worried about it breaking cube.
3cmc, 3/2 flash, ETB draw a card + fork your own spell?
I'd cube that in a heartbeat. But you're right, it's not better than power. However, this Otter isn't that card. In fact, Lutri is 2.5 times better than the card described above! How?? Well, consider the following:
The value of a card in your deck can be approximated by the probability you cast it multiplied by the effect when cast. Let's say In an average game of cube, you see about 40% of your deck (16 cards --- it's probably smaller than that to be honest). This means that the value of any card is really about 0.4 * it's actual value at best. Given that you have access to this Otter in 100% of games, the value of Lutri is 2.5 times higher than the card text reads, because we are (subconsciously) used to evaluating cards under this 40% probabilistic lens, I believe that many aren't properly understanding the magnitude of that difference.
I believe this yields a card that is substantially above the cards listed (JTMS, Recurring Nightmare, 4cmc Gideon, etc.). If it's in the discussion related to power is something else, but I believe it should be.
First off, the name Shark Typhoon and flying Shark tokens is AWESOME! At first, this looks like a terrible expensive enchantment. However, that mode is just gravy. This is {2X}: flash, flying, cantrip on cast, X/X! That in itself is a cubable card.
I may finally give Mulldrifter the Axe to test this spell.
Exactly! If nexus is the last card and you have enough lands to cast it, you can take infinite turns. Although you do lose if you don't have a way to win from there
Nexus of Fate has been a great card in my list at least. Endstep Nexus is often GGs, which is how it should be for 7 cmc spells. But it's also guaranteed inevitability (Like Jace too) in that you win if the game goes on forever. So having control cards that just-so-happen to be Lab-Mans, even without the combo pieces (e.g. Demonic Consultation), spawns true control decks that don't really care for any finishers. It's a cool archetype that wasn't supported before!
Oracle is also playable in quite a few places. But the Jace and the Maniac I feel are too narrow, and would only ever see play in the combo deck.
Both Doomsday and Inverter of Truth are also quite narrow, and would likely also be combo-exclusive cards.
I agree with everything you've said except for Jace. I actually had the exact same opinion on Jace before I tried it. It seems clunky, but it has played out so much better than I thought. It has seen plenty of play without the combo over here. It's not the best option by any means, but it's a fine Coercive Portal Variant. I wouldn't advocate for it without the combo, but I don't try and wheel it like I do for many combo pieces because people pick it up and play it!
I've had a hard push to creature based combo decks in the last year, where it's a midrange deck with tons of creatures and a couple combos. This may finally get me to critical mass. It also might get me to re-add Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Honestly, I think I would P1P1 this card above Time Walk. My gut places it below Sol Ring, Lotus, Moxen, Ancestral, and Mana Crypt, but above everything else . . . IT'S A FREE ROLL IN 100% OF DECKS THAT'S A 3-FOR-1 THAT YOU GET ACCESS TO IN 100% OF GAMES. 70% of decks can easily cast it, and the rest can still have some random duals to make it possible.
I think one of the important things to understand is that both Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact are much more playable outside of the combo than they look. Tainted Pact much more than Consultation to be clear. Consider the following:
1 - You can ALWAYS stop when you hit the first basic. Meaning that Tainted Pact, if you don't want to take any risk, is at worst "draw a basic land".
2 - If you really need a specific set of cards, "exile the top N cards that are not the specific cards that you need" is actually a good card. It's pretty similar to "Scry 1, repeat N times", except if you aren't bottoming everything, you draw the card you want.
3 - If you don't really need a specific set of cards, but a basic is unacceptable, then you can cast it like Anticipate. The probability of hitting two of the same basic in the top 3 in a deck with 8 basics of two colors is under 20%. And I would argue that's the worst case manabase.
Conclusion: Tainted Pact is a generically good card that I believe most cubes should include even without this combo. And part of that, in my opinion, is motivation to run the combo. The only deck I tend to exclude pact from is mono-B aggro.
Demonic Consultation is much better in the combo of course, and much worse without it. But let's still evaluate it outside of the mill-yourself-combo:
1 - This card should only be played in combo decks, since that's where the maximal ceiling of tutoring is, which helps the math check out to be worth it.
2 - Let's say a game of cube has gone pretty late. So there's 24 cards left in your library. If there is a card in your deck that reads "win the game" (e.g. Twin combo, persist combo, sneak attack, etc.), then casting Demonic Consultation reads "75% you win, 25% you lose". Those odds are good.
3 - On the other side of the same math, if you're a blue deck and your opponent is casting something that reads "win the game", a 1cmc instant tutor that says "25% I lose, 75% I counter my opponent's game winning spell -- those odds are really closer to say 35% and 65% because you can't burn through your whole deck" is a good card.
Conclusion: Demonic Consultation ends up in sideboards a good chunk of the time. But blue-based combo decks tend to play it. These decks often have looting effects to mitigate dead cards as well as ways to set up the library (e.g. Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Top, JTMS, etc) to also mitigate the risk of Consultation. I will splash this card in my URb Twin deck. I will play it in Sneak Attack. I consider it in even versions of BR Wildfire and Reanimator. Is it the best card, no. But it's more playable than cards like Pestermite outside of its respective combo deck.
As a last note, because I feel like I have to keep saying it, if you want to support this archetype you should definitely play Nexus of Fate. There's a large difference between 2 and 3 cards that support a combo. At 540, this brings the probability of seeing a combo piece from 88% to 96%!
IMO, after the OG Rabblemaster, the rest all have their tradeoffs. I go between including 3 or 4 variants. The two must includes are Rabblemaster and Garrison (because human subtheme). I have Najeela and Krenko next. If I were to go down to 3, I would cut Krenko though.
Yeah this is a 360 powered cube staple. I can only see excluding it if you don't like how it doesn't feel like a magic card or it's too powerful. Starting with an 8-card hand is absolutely ridiculous.
I have been playing this since the release of THB and it has been AWESOME!
1 - Tainted Pact can be played like an Impulse variant in almost every black deck.
2 - While Thassa's Oracle and Jace aren't the best cards, they're fine playables. Much more so than Twin counterparts.
3 - Laboratory Maniac is too bad to include IMO, but Nexus of Fate also has redundancy here for infinite turns!
I don't include Doomsday or Inverter of Truths (might add inverter). I think in general you should add Necropotence instead of Doomsday because it can be played outside this deck, but also can burn through your whole library. Similarly, Doom Whisperer is great with it. I also have Hermit Druid for a bit more redundancy, and that card has seen plenty of play in GB reanimator and general G midrange.
There's a lot more redundancy than it looks, and I strongly suggest trying it out. One of my favorite control decks I've ever drafted had zero creatures and Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids lategame would take infinite turns because of Nexus of Fate!
I was originally excited to test Yahenni, but it was quite underwhelming. The problem was it was easy to ignore the body. I don’t play Nantuko Husk, but I believe that is a better card to support the aristocrat deck because of what that deck is trying to accomplish.
I just want a Bloodthrone Vampire with two power so it isn't embarassing while developing a board state and that the threat of activation actually matters because getting in for two adds up, but getting in for one doesn't. I love myself an Atog-style creature, but I didn't have success with Bloodthrone Vampire.
I've found the best way to support aristocrats is to include black aggro and the persist combo package. As those are two generically good decks that can get real mileage out of blood artist variants.
I think this card is a lot better than it looks! Since the addition of Doom Whisperer, I've looked at any card that can reward me for turboing through my library. I have some specific enablers like Necropotence and Hermit Druid, which are both cards that see play even without some Laboratory Maniac payoff in my list. Currently, the card in my list that does this is Nexus of Fate. With the print of Thassa's Oracle, I'm considering of adding Thassa's Oracle, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, and an additional combo piece in Demonic Consultation. I still don't think Laboratory Maniac is good enough because it will never see play outside of these decks, where every other card on this list can be played under a variety of other circumstances.
Overall, the cards that make Thassa's Oracle good aren't staples by any means. However, these kinds of decks have shown up over here at enough frequency, and are incredibly fun to pilot. This incentivizes me as a cube designer to add additional support. And I hope sharing this experience will get others to consider this as well. Happy cubing!
3cmc, 3/2 flash, ETB draw a card + fork your own spell?
I'd cube that in a heartbeat. But you're right, it's not better than power. However, this Otter isn't that card. In fact, Lutri is 2.5 times better than the card described above! How?? Well, consider the following:
The value of a card in your deck can be approximated by the probability you cast it multiplied by the effect when cast. Let's say In an average game of cube, you see about 40% of your deck (16 cards --- it's probably smaller than that to be honest). This means that the value of any card is really about 0.4 * it's actual value at best. Given that you have access to this Otter in 100% of games, the value of Lutri is 2.5 times higher than the card text reads, because we are (subconsciously) used to evaluating cards under this 40% probabilistic lens, I believe that many aren't properly understanding the magnitude of that difference.
I believe this yields a card that is substantially above the cards listed (JTMS, Recurring Nightmare, 4cmc Gideon, etc.). If it's in the discussion related to power is something else, but I believe it should be.
Edit: For clarity. Wrote that while half asleep.
First off, the name Shark Typhoon and flying Shark tokens is AWESOME! At first, this looks like a terrible expensive enchantment. However, that mode is just gravy. This is {2X}: flash, flying, cantrip on cast, X/X! That in itself is a cubable card.
I may finally give Mulldrifter the Axe to test this spell.
Nexus of Fate has been a great card in my list at least. Endstep Nexus is often GGs, which is how it should be for 7 cmc spells. But it's also guaranteed inevitability (Like Jace too) in that you win if the game goes on forever. So having control cards that just-so-happen to be Lab-Mans, even without the combo pieces (e.g. Demonic Consultation), spawns true control decks that don't really care for any finishers. It's a cool archetype that wasn't supported before!
I agree with everything you've said except for Jace. I actually had the exact same opinion on Jace before I tried it. It seems clunky, but it has played out so much better than I thought. It has seen plenty of play without the combo over here. It's not the best option by any means, but it's a fine Coercive Portal Variant. I wouldn't advocate for it without the combo, but I don't try and wheel it like I do for many combo pieces because people pick it up and play it!
I've had a hard push to creature based combo decks in the last year, where it's a midrange deck with tons of creatures and a couple combos. This may finally get me to critical mass. It also might get me to re-add Prime Speaker Vannifar.
1 - You can ALWAYS stop when you hit the first basic. Meaning that Tainted Pact, if you don't want to take any risk, is at worst "draw a basic land".
2 - If you really need a specific set of cards, "exile the top N cards that are not the specific cards that you need" is actually a good card. It's pretty similar to "Scry 1, repeat N times", except if you aren't bottoming everything, you draw the card you want.
3 - If you don't really need a specific set of cards, but a basic is unacceptable, then you can cast it like Anticipate. The probability of hitting two of the same basic in the top 3 in a deck with 8 basics of two colors is under 20%. And I would argue that's the worst case manabase.
Conclusion: Tainted Pact is a generically good card that I believe most cubes should include even without this combo. And part of that, in my opinion, is motivation to run the combo. The only deck I tend to exclude pact from is mono-B aggro.
Demonic Consultation is much better in the combo of course, and much worse without it. But let's still evaluate it outside of the mill-yourself-combo:
1 - This card should only be played in combo decks, since that's where the maximal ceiling of tutoring is, which helps the math check out to be worth it.
2 - Let's say a game of cube has gone pretty late. So there's 24 cards left in your library. If there is a card in your deck that reads "win the game" (e.g. Twin combo, persist combo, sneak attack, etc.), then casting Demonic Consultation reads "75% you win, 25% you lose". Those odds are good.
3 - On the other side of the same math, if you're a blue deck and your opponent is casting something that reads "win the game", a 1cmc instant tutor that says "25% I lose, 75% I counter my opponent's game winning spell -- those odds are really closer to say 35% and 65% because you can't burn through your whole deck" is a good card.
Conclusion: Demonic Consultation ends up in sideboards a good chunk of the time. But blue-based combo decks tend to play it. These decks often have looting effects to mitigate dead cards as well as ways to set up the library (e.g. Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Top, JTMS, etc) to also mitigate the risk of Consultation. I will splash this card in my URb Twin deck. I will play it in Sneak Attack. I consider it in even versions of BR Wildfire and Reanimator. Is it the best card, no. But it's more playable than cards like Pestermite outside of its respective combo deck.
As a last note, because I feel like I have to keep saying it, if you want to support this archetype you should definitely play Nexus of Fate. There's a large difference between 2 and 3 cards that support a combo. At 540, this brings the probability of seeing a combo piece from 88% to 96%!
1 - Tainted Pact can be played like an Impulse variant in almost every black deck.
2 - While Thassa's Oracle and Jace aren't the best cards, they're fine playables. Much more so than Twin counterparts.
3 - Laboratory Maniac is too bad to include IMO, but Nexus of Fate also has redundancy here for infinite turns!
I don't include Doomsday or Inverter of Truths (might add inverter). I think in general you should add Necropotence instead of Doomsday because it can be played outside this deck, but also can burn through your whole library. Similarly, Doom Whisperer is great with it. I also have Hermit Druid for a bit more redundancy, and that card has seen plenty of play in GB reanimator and general G midrange.
There's a lot more redundancy than it looks, and I strongly suggest trying it out. One of my favorite control decks I've ever drafted had zero creatures and Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids lategame would take infinite turns because of Nexus of Fate!
I've found the best way to support aristocrats is to include black aggro and the persist combo package. As those are two generically good decks that can get real mileage out of blood artist variants.
Omenspeaker meets Laboratory Maniac!
I think this card is a lot better than it looks! Since the addition of Doom Whisperer, I've looked at any card that can reward me for turboing through my library. I have some specific enablers like Necropotence and Hermit Druid, which are both cards that see play even without some Laboratory Maniac payoff in my list. Currently, the card in my list that does this is Nexus of Fate. With the print of Thassa's Oracle, I'm considering of adding Thassa's Oracle, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, and an additional combo piece in Demonic Consultation. I still don't think Laboratory Maniac is good enough because it will never see play outside of these decks, where every other card on this list can be played under a variety of other circumstances.
Overall, the cards that make Thassa's Oracle good aren't staples by any means. However, these kinds of decks have shown up over here at enough frequency, and are incredibly fun to pilot. This incentivizes me as a cube designer to add additional support. And I hope sharing this experience will get others to consider this as well. Happy cubing!