I'm agreeing with the consensus on Psyhogenic Probe here. It would be hilarious in a casual setting (and a fantastic way to make everyone hate you), but in tournament play, we have to be careful and play as fast as possible. We want to be winning games, not letting then go to time. And shuffling takes a looooooong time.
Psychogenic Probe seems like a great card... and i would play it instead of the spellbomb if it weren't for the mana cost. But the lulz that would ensue over recurring Lantern causing damage...... seems almost worth it.
The best solution to this problem is the proactive one; make sure to bring a notepad with you, and write down the names of the potential Needle targets you see. When playing this kind of deck, it's usually a good idea to bring a notepad anyway, so you can write down what people have in hand, what kind of deck they're playing, life totals, cards left in library, etc etc.
The big difference here is that Fountain of Youth is free to cast. I would personally see Tanglebloom as better too, though. We need life gain as early as we can afford it. Sun Droplet is good because it effectively sets our life total, and in multiples lets us gain life. The other two require constant mana investment, and 1 or 2 is a lot to pay for one life a turn when in the early game.
I like Kozilek's Charm a lot, i'm gonna put three in my SB when the set becomes legal.
I tried Fountain of Youth, but it didn't have a big enough impact to be relevant in the games in played it in. I found myself siding it out a lot, since it seemed like a pointless card. 2 is a big investment for one life per turn.
Do you guys prefer leyline or sun droplet in the SB? I really don't know what to slot in.
After trying the leyline, i really miss the life gain. I am having loads of trouble playing around Eidolon of the Great Revel, and a few droplets would go a long way towards helping with that matchup. Also, the droplet is kind of a nonbo with the cards we normally use for protection, like Welding Jar, and for other cards like Mox Opal. Also, multiple droplets will let you gain net life when you take damage, while multiple leylines just gum up your hand. I am gonna add 4x droplet to my sideboard probably. Also adding a pyroclasm to the main, three to the side. It comes in handy.
Haha, she's not even fat. She's just normal. Every other girl in Magic is just ridiculously skinny. I'm being serious! I hope the artist recognized that and wanted to give a more realistic feel to the angel depicted.
Forbidden Orchard could work. Since i'm on the hype train for Kozilek's Charm though, i don't like the fact that it can't tap for C. At least i admit that i'm biased. It could easily be a mainstay of the deck though... except for the fact that it can wreck your early game. It might be worth trying, by replacing a Llanowar Wastes and another land with two of or so.
I recently started to pilot the deck after recovering from Pod ban, I really like cause shares a similar complexity and a wide variety of options and lines of play.
I only played a 4 round tournament 1-3 winning against Amulet Bloom and loosing to Affinity, Mono B Zombies and Burn. Several bad choices made.
Anyway... I red some of the 170 pages of this thread and I have a question... I'd like to test Noxious Revival over Ancient Stirrings.... maybe using 2-2.
Maybe I'm wrong but... sometimes we have to mill ourself to find a way outmostly against a fast clock, to use Codex Shredder o Academy Ruins to recover the solution from graveyard. But Codex ability costs 5 and we only have access to 2 Ruins.
In the playtesting i've done, Codex Shredder and Academy Ruins (especially the land) are plenty sufficient for graveyard recursion. Noxious Revival is good in theory, but what would you be recurring? Most of the cards we'd want to get back, except for possiblyAbrupt Decay, can be recurred with the ruins. Having a one-shot recursion that takes up additional slots seems a bit lackluster, in my personal opinion.
By all means though, feel free to playtest with this card! It's always possible that we're missing something truly awesome. Make sure to tell us what you think of it!
Agreed. It's always a good idea to encourage playtesting new and useful cards, but it's not a good idea to cut core cards. Ancient Stirrings is an unfair tutor that acts as the glue keeping the deck together.
There are points to be made towards both charms being decent. Dimir charm is similar in some manner, I agree. But eldrazi charm is powerful in that we have the choice of power or toughness. It's second mode is obviously the same as Dimir charm, but honestly I think this is a lot easier for us to cast considering the amount of colorless we have already in the deck. The fateseal is useful from Dimir charm, but a potential 2 mana flash chump blocker in this deck sounds quite good for early game if we don't have bridge right away, which seems like something the deck would want over a fateseal. I'd rather save myself from a tasigur hit or something than fateseal most of the time.
True but at the same time our decks biggest weakness is 0 power creatures, 1 toughness isn't really a worry (the only one I can really think if if Bob, and against Lantern Bob can be a liability.... Making sure they get a really big expensive card). The chump blocker is nice I guess. One thing to point out it that (well I don't know what your list is but...) there aren't actually that many colorless sources. Apart from the painlands and ghost quarter none of the lands tap for colorless specifically, unless you're trying out that new draw land. Same of course for mox opal, is the prospect of a chump blocker worth the risk of being killed by a bunch of swift spears with a card in hand? If you look at blue sources (assuming no Darkslick shores, which I'm probably going to run a playset of) just glimmervoids and Mox opals come up to 7, making Dimir charm slightly easier to cast IMO
Academy Ruins is also a colorless producing land, so are Grove of the Burnwillows, Buried Ruin & Duskmantle, House of Shadows in the decks that run those. My list has 10 colorless producing lands.
There is no way UB is easier to pay than 1<>.
I tried Dimir Charm when it got released and the fateseal ability was not that relevant. Its was a one shot deal that didn't really matter much. If you used it on turn 2, most times the opponent just shuffled off a fetchland and you essentially did nothing with it. If you tried holding it for an opportune moment you would end up using it as removal/counter than fateseal because you would already have assembled the Lantern lock. And most times when I did use the fatesealing it was used on myself just to empty the hand or accelerate a finish.
I would have to agree with everyone here, in that the fateseal mode of Dimir Charm doesn't really hold that much appeal. This deck works by having a fateseal engine; one-shot uses don't really contribute toward the lock. I would also rather use the fateseal mode on myself instead of my opponent, since i'd rather focus my energy on finding/playing Ensnaring Bridge or whatever i needed at the time.
As far as castability of Dimir Charm versus Warping Wail, i would also have to say that Kozilek's Charm (i'm going to coin this!) is much easier for us to cast. Most of our spells are already colorless, so our land base naturally doesn't care as much about having colors. For example, my mana base / decklist is as follows (after looking at zerodown's list and adding in a grove):
Also, a second advantage of Warping Wail that's not really that big of an advantage: It can be tutored for with Ancient Stirrings. I'm sure it won't come up often, and that doing so is pointless because you lose the surprise factor of a colorless counterspell/killspell, but it's something to remember in corner cases when you can't find your third land and need to cast Ensnaring Bridge (yes, the third mode for chump blocking / mana acceleration is very relevant).
Also, i don't recommend running that many Darkslick Shores (or any at all, really), unless you really want to focus on a U-centric build. In the typical build, they will act mostly as nonbasic Swamps. As far as activating Spellskite and Academy Ruins, the fact that we have U sources in there at all means that at some point, we'll be able to activate them. We will draw and play our whole deck if we have to, but we've got all the time in the world to grab those U sources once the lock is set up. Once again, i'm all for trying new things (that is how this archetype was born, after all), but don't try too hard to force the deck to go in a certain direction. This kind of deck likes a BG core, mostly due to Ancient Stirrings and Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize, with a splash of R for Pyrite Spellbomb and Pyroclasm. If you've got a build that uses that U splash on some awesome cards and works really well, then share it with us! It's always worth it to explore new directions.
I'd like to give some insight on my inclusion of Reflecting Pool as a one-of. There are some interesting rulings on this card that i feel warrant its serious consideration as a one-of in the stock build. First, a word of warning: Never have more than one in your deck! Having two Reflecting Pools in your hand will make you feel very stupid, as they do not turn each other on, and you'll be left with two lands that do absolutely nothing. Second: This land can tap for C if, for example, you've got a Ghost Quarter in play along with it. C is a type of mana, and note that it says "type", not "color". This could be very relevant if Kozilek's Charm (Warping Wail) takes hold. Third: Even if other lands you control can't produce a particular type of mana at the time, but have it printed on the physical card that they are capable of producing that kind of mana, then Reflecting Pool will see that, and be able to make that mana regardless. For example, let's say your T1 play is a Tendo Ice Bridge into Thoughtseize. From now on, you'll only be able to tap the bridge for C, because you used the charge counter. Now, let's say your T2 land drop is Reflecting Pool. You can tap the pool for W/U/B/R/G/C, because even though your Tendo Ice Bridge can't tap for colored mana anymore, it still says on the card that it technically "could" produce any color. Reflecting Pool will see that, letting you play an Ancient Stirrings, or Inquisition of Kozilek, or Pyroclasm, or whatever. Also, it usually acts like a fifth Glimmervoid that can also tap for C, which is basically heaven for this deck. The downside? If you've got a one-land hand, and your only hand is Reflecting Pool, well, that sucks. I haven't run into this scenario yet though, and it's helped a lot more than it's hurt so far. What are your thoughts on this card?
I could definitely see this in the sideboard, maybe even in the main. The third mode isn't irrelevant; it lets us cast Ensnaring Bridge if we don't hit our third land. Countering sorceries and exiling little creatures will come in handy a *lot*. I will try this in my side once it's released, too!
The big difference is Ash Zealot doesn't have evasion, while Stormchaser Mage can fly over everything. Not to mention, three toughness plus prowess could be a very real benefit.
This might be blasphemy, but i personally think that dropping white and tinkering with blue may be a viable option. It won't be straight-up 100% burn anymore, of course; it'd be more tempo-burn or counter-burn, but it might be more effective, or just different. It's an idea that i'm personally willing to try out.
Also, deleting turns out of the game [...] all the hard work you put into milling.
This is what I don't understand. The first half of your sentence has nothing to do with the other half. Turns of magic are gone from the game. There is no hard work that has been accomplish by milling because that is not the objective. They literally cannot play anymore, so them having 10 cards in their deck or 1000 is the same. You eventually say "pass" 30 times in 60 seconds, draw your deck, and kill them with spellbomb or demonstrate the surgical loop.
I said something stupid, that's just about it. lol
Hedron Alignment new win con? We can exile one with surgical extraction, and noxious revival any we mill.
I really hope someone finds a great deck for Hedron Alignment, but this isn't it. Maybe some kind of UR Control shell with Faithless Looting and Logic Knot.
Completely agree. I'm a big fan of alternate win-cons myself, but they don't really work well in this kind of deck. I've got Helix Pinnacle in my sideboard, and i haven't brought it in once. There are just no scenarios in which the pinnacle (or another win-con, Darksteel Reactor) is more effective than another card you could have had in that slot instead. I'm definitely swapping it out for another card that actually does something... like a fourth Sun Droplet or a fourth Pyroclasm or something.
We have milling as a win-con, that's kind of an alternate win. We also have infinite damage. Also don't forget, if your opponent's sanity drops to zero, you also win. So that's three different ways to win (damage, milling, concession), where most other decks only win in one (or at most two) ways. I like to think about it like that
I've heard Fountain of Youth being thrown around a few times. Seems like a mini Sun Droplet to me, but it does drop our hand size quickly and also activate Mox Opal. And dat art tho. I'm trying this as a one-of main. In my playtesting, i usually stabilize at around 6-10 life, so it might not be necessary. Any thoughts on this card, and on maindeck life gain in general?
I agree that Stormchaser Mage would work wonders with Delver of Secrets. I personally envision some sort of UR or URG burn archetype being born. This is something i personally would love to explore.
Kozilek's Return
Kozilek's Charm is the nickname for Warping Wail
I'm agreeing with the consensus on Psyhogenic Probe here. It would be hilarious in a casual setting (and a fantastic way to make everyone hate you), but in tournament play, we have to be careful and play as fast as possible. We want to be winning games, not letting then go to time. And shuffling takes a looooooong time.
The big difference here is that Fountain of Youth is free to cast. I would personally see Tanglebloom as better too, though. We need life gain as early as we can afford it. Sun Droplet is good because it effectively sets our life total, and in multiples lets us gain life. The other two require constant mana investment, and 1 or 2 is a lot to pay for one life a turn when in the early game.
I tried Fountain of Youth, but it didn't have a big enough impact to be relevant in the games in played it in. I found myself siding it out a lot, since it seemed like a pointless card. 2 is a big investment for one life per turn.
After trying the leyline, i really miss the life gain. I am having loads of trouble playing around Eidolon of the Great Revel, and a few droplets would go a long way towards helping with that matchup. Also, the droplet is kind of a nonbo with the cards we normally use for protection, like Welding Jar, and for other cards like Mox Opal. Also, multiple droplets will let you gain net life when you take damage, while multiple leylines just gum up your hand. I am gonna add 4x droplet to my sideboard probably. Also adding a pyroclasm to the main, three to the side. It comes in handy.
Also, never run a playset of Reflecting Pools! That's just asking to be mana screwed.
In the playtesting i've done, Codex Shredder and Academy Ruins (especially the land) are plenty sufficient for graveyard recursion. Noxious Revival is good in theory, but what would you be recurring? Most of the cards we'd want to get back, except for possibly Abrupt Decay, can be recurred with the ruins. Having a one-shot recursion that takes up additional slots seems a bit lackluster, in my personal opinion.
By all means though, feel free to playtest with this card! It's always possible that we're missing something truly awesome. Make sure to tell us what you think of it!
Agreed. It's always a good idea to encourage playtesting new and useful cards, but it's not a good idea to cut core cards. Ancient Stirrings is an unfair tutor that acts as the glue keeping the deck together.
I would have to agree with everyone here, in that the fateseal mode of Dimir Charm doesn't really hold that much appeal. This deck works by having a fateseal engine; one-shot uses don't really contribute toward the lock. I would also rather use the fateseal mode on myself instead of my opponent, since i'd rather focus my energy on finding/playing Ensnaring Bridge or whatever i needed at the time.
As far as castability of Dimir Charm versus Warping Wail, i would also have to say that Kozilek's Charm (i'm going to coin this!) is much easier for us to cast. Most of our spells are already colorless, so our land base naturally doesn't care as much about having colors. For example, my mana base / decklist is as follows (after looking at zerodown's list and adding in a grove):
4 Glimmervoid
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Academy Ruins
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
3 Mox Opal
Lock Pieces: 16
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Goodstuff: 15
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
3 Spellskite
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Infernal Tutor
Wincons: 2
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Ghirapur AEther Grid
Weird Things: 1
1 Fountain of Youth
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sun Droplet
3 Welding Jar
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
I have 11 sources of C in my land base, so casting a spell with cost 1C shouldn't be an issue at all. Affinity builds run 12 colored sources (Glimmervoid, Mox Opal, Springleaf Drum), and they have no problem with Thoughtseize, Galvanic Blast, and Thoughtcast.
Also, a second advantage of Warping Wail that's not really that big of an advantage: It can be tutored for with Ancient Stirrings. I'm sure it won't come up often, and that doing so is pointless because you lose the surprise factor of a colorless counterspell/killspell, but it's something to remember in corner cases when you can't find your third land and need to cast Ensnaring Bridge (yes, the third mode for chump blocking / mana acceleration is very relevant).
Also, i don't recommend running that many Darkslick Shores (or any at all, really), unless you really want to focus on a U-centric build. In the typical build, they will act mostly as nonbasic Swamps. As far as activating Spellskite and Academy Ruins, the fact that we have U sources in there at all means that at some point, we'll be able to activate them. We will draw and play our whole deck if we have to, but we've got all the time in the world to grab those U sources once the lock is set up. Once again, i'm all for trying new things (that is how this archetype was born, after all), but don't try too hard to force the deck to go in a certain direction. This kind of deck likes a BG core, mostly due to Ancient Stirrings and Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize, with a splash of R for Pyrite Spellbomb and Pyroclasm. If you've got a build that uses that U splash on some awesome cards and works really well, then share it with us! It's always worth it to explore new directions.
I'd like to give some insight on my inclusion of Reflecting Pool as a one-of. There are some interesting rulings on this card that i feel warrant its serious consideration as a one-of in the stock build. First, a word of warning: Never have more than one in your deck! Having two Reflecting Pools in your hand will make you feel very stupid, as they do not turn each other on, and you'll be left with two lands that do absolutely nothing. Second: This land can tap for C if, for example, you've got a Ghost Quarter in play along with it. C is a type of mana, and note that it says "type", not "color". This could be very relevant if Kozilek's Charm (Warping Wail) takes hold. Third: Even if other lands you control can't produce a particular type of mana at the time, but have it printed on the physical card that they are capable of producing that kind of mana, then Reflecting Pool will see that, and be able to make that mana regardless. For example, let's say your T1 play is a Tendo Ice Bridge into Thoughtseize. From now on, you'll only be able to tap the bridge for C, because you used the charge counter. Now, let's say your T2 land drop is Reflecting Pool. You can tap the pool for W/U/B/R/G/C, because even though your Tendo Ice Bridge can't tap for colored mana anymore, it still says on the card that it technically "could" produce any color. Reflecting Pool will see that, letting you play an Ancient Stirrings, or Inquisition of Kozilek, or Pyroclasm, or whatever. Also, it usually acts like a fifth Glimmervoid that can also tap for C, which is basically heaven for this deck. The downside? If you've got a one-land hand, and your only hand is Reflecting Pool, well, that sucks. I haven't run into this scenario yet though, and it's helped a lot more than it's hurt so far. What are your thoughts on this card?
Kozilek's Charm is awesome.
I could definitely see this in the sideboard, maybe even in the main. The third mode isn't irrelevant; it lets us cast Ensnaring Bridge if we don't hit our third land. Countering sorceries and exiling little creatures will come in handy a *lot*. I will try this in my side once it's released, too!
This might be blasphemy, but i personally think that dropping white and tinkering with blue may be a viable option. It won't be straight-up 100% burn anymore, of course; it'd be more tempo-burn or counter-burn, but it might be more effective, or just different. It's an idea that i'm personally willing to try out.
I said something stupid, that's just about it. lol
Completely agree. I'm a big fan of alternate win-cons myself, but they don't really work well in this kind of deck. I've got Helix Pinnacle in my sideboard, and i haven't brought it in once. There are just no scenarios in which the pinnacle (or another win-con, Darksteel Reactor) is more effective than another card you could have had in that slot instead. I'm definitely swapping it out for another card that actually does something... like a fourth Sun Droplet or a fourth Pyroclasm or something.
We have milling as a win-con, that's kind of an alternate win. We also have infinite damage. Also don't forget, if your opponent's sanity drops to zero, you also win. So that's three different ways to win (damage, milling, concession), where most other decks only win in one (or at most two) ways. I like to think about it like that
I've heard Fountain of Youth being thrown around a few times. Seems like a mini Sun Droplet to me, but it does drop our hand size quickly and also activate Mox Opal. And dat art tho. I'm trying this as a one-of main. In my playtesting, i usually stabilize at around 6-10 life, so it might not be necessary. Any thoughts on this card, and on maindeck life gain in general?