I am really excited for Halo Fountain. First my favorite commander deck is a casual combo-less combat oriented Haloid, Sun-crowned deck. The deck loves to swing but often holds back do to crack-back fears as my larger creatures are needed to attack successfully. Halo Fountain will let me put my "shields" back netting me a token or a card in the process. That looks like all upside. Yes there is minor setup. but my deck wants creatures to attack anyway so it is in my decks wants anyway.
That last ability, I wish it didn't have. It is a bit "win more". if I have 15 creatures in play there is a real possibility I am going to win anyway. But it could attract unwanted attention with the "win the game" clause. For commander that last ability could be a liability more than an asset. Drawing too much attention is the easiest way to lose in a causal game.
Still the first two abilities are all upside. White card draw is always a boon, Untapping my creatures is a real upside more than a cost, and tokens are a valuable resource especially given the number of things that trigger when they enter the battlefield. I need this card. Shame about the trap ability at the end being little more than a flashy "win more" effect that will draw hate more often then win you the game turning it into more of a "win less" ability.
I don't like the basic lands. To me they don't look lands or even Magic cards. If it wasn't for the mana symbol I on most of them I wouldn't have a clue what they are look wise. Bit of an eye sore if you ask me. Looks like crappy wall art hanged at a cheap run down Chinese restaurant that hasn't updated its look since the 70's. Ugly. Note remind me to not buy any the collectors packs as I know each pack contains an undesirable eye sore instead of usable basic. It is like those ugly lands like evolving wilds from Forgotten Realms. They were unusably ugly too.
Dragon shield was always sold 8n groups of a hundred. Ultra pro was sold in packs of 50 so you had to buy two. Most others I remember was sold in packs of 60, 75 or 80 if I remember right back in 2000 when I first started going to shops to play. From 1994 through early 2000. I got cards from Kmart and didn't know they had value or sleeves other then penny sleeves for sport card existed.
I want to talk about Lorehold Command. That last choice is unique for a red or white card. Since when do red or white sacrifice things to draw? Weirder yet combined with the first choice you can convert this card into basically reading "draw two cards". Five mana is a bit much to draw two but since when does this color pair get unconditional or in this sell fulfilling card draw?.
I hope this is a new color ability granted to red or white. White especially as it doesn't even have impulse draw like red. But both colors could use a way to draw. As is both are weak in this area. White is so bad off in the card draw department that it actively makes playing mono white hard in commander as you are always out resourced. Please let this be a new white ability. White needs it bad.
Anyway this is the most generally useful command of the new commands. Five mana is a big ask but given all four modes have there uses most games, I could see this finding a home in a few Boros commander decks. Especially if that Boros deck is a go wide aggro deck. I know it has no business in a competitive deck, but let's be honest, a Boros commander deck likely isn't going to be all that competitive to start with.
Boros card draw, dang it isn't great, but beggars aren't choosers after all. Boros in the card draw department are definitely beggars. Yes, I realize red has better options with its impulsive draw, but none that can save your army in a pinch, remove something small, or pump your dudes to add that last little bit of damage if needs be. I like this command. Am I nuts?
OK my opponent in a commander game played a Stuffy Doll naming me. Later he casts Pariah on his Stuffy Doll. I have an Aura Thief in play. He activates his Pyrohemia twice killing my Aura Thief. I gained control of his Pariah (and his Pyrohemia among other things). What happens when either the Stuffy Doll or I take damage? The Pariah would redirect all damage I take to the Stuffy Doll, but the Stuffy Doll would then do the damage back to me forming a loop. I am I right that if no one can break the loop it is a tie?
I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
Exactly, first thing I teach people on how to build a deck is to pick a strategy and build your deck to match. I don't care what strategy or how likely it is to take first, Magic isn't always about that. But decks need focus to function. This includes limited and causal decks.Walker decks lack this.
Second thing I teach is manna curve. Walker decks lack this as well. Even bad cards can win if they curve well. Look at the early sligh decks early in MTG history. Ironclaw Orcs Actually seen play back in the day as a curve filler at the pro tour. It doesn't get much worse than those things. But they fit the strategy of the deck and the curve needed. Walker decks as I have shown don't curve out. They are poor in making sure you have a meaningful play turns two though five.
It would cost Wizards nothing to fix walker decks. Add more staples at common and uncommon new players need. Why isn't there a play set of murders in the deck? It would be valuable to get newbies easy access to these cards, and cost Wizards nothing, and doesn't hurt LGS at all cards under a dollar don't make stores much after labor and everything. Build the decks with one strategy, not three or four like the example deck above. And lastly make sure the deck curves out. These decks shouldn't be decks that out power an opponent with case cards, but they should be able to capitalize if an opponent's deck trips out the gate. And most importantly they should curve out more often not.
For new players it is important they see examples of how a deck should work. These are not that. Walker decks are exactly the kind of decks that are the opposite of how to build a deck. Weaker cards, not clear strategy, no curve, no clear upgrades, and lacks proper instructions on how to play, how exactly are these decks helping new players? Well I two murder are better then none, and newbies always need lands. That is something, but come on they deserve better. And I am not talking printing a competitive deck, just one that is better than the free decks Wizards puts out. They are paying for these decks after all.
And yes I have seen worse decks, but the bar shouldn't be lets make decks on par with what the greenest MTG players could build. The bar needs to be let's show them how to build a deck by example and let them grow from there.
1. They can literally do both of these. There is nothing stopping them from creating a mostly functional deck with reasonable paths for improvement while also putting the exact same shiny foil planeswalker on the front of it along with that planeswalker's exact same search card and their same support creature. I haven't seen anyone asking for these decks to be tuned FNM ready decks from the start. There's nothing wrong with the deck containing it's share of not so great cards. As I've been saying, there should still be room for improvement in these decks. The problem is that the decks (historically) are almost completely those types of cards that are borderline useless anywhere but the kitchen table. This is why people don't like these decks. Because handing potential new players a bundle of cards that aren't going to serve them very well, and the company knows this, for a fairly substantial few to a lot of such potential new players, is simply scummy and we know WOTC can do better than this.
As far as I am aware, the decklists for GRN Planeswalker decks haven't been released yet so instead I'll pull one of the M19 ones:
I'm not going to argue there aren't some... questionable... inclusions (seriously, what is that singleton Sovereign's Bite doing in there) but by and large the deck isn't terrible. Obviously it could be made better but it's certainly not the worst deck I've ever seen. Hell, I think Demon of Catastrophes is going to be an actual Standard player once Kaladesh and friends rotate. Gravewaker is a card I didn't even know existed but it seems pretty sweet for EDH. Like, when I went to look these up I was expecting this deck to be a lot worse than it actually is, the way ya'll are talking about them. Without actually adding any new cards but only increasing the copies of cards already in the deck, I think I could scrape together an FNM playable Mono-black aggro deck. Will it beat Tier 1 decks? Probably not. But it would certainly be able to put up some wins. So I'm not really seeing the complaint that the deck doesn't give you a blueprint to make a decent deck.
2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.
You're right, it was more a shot at this line by scoed:
3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.
There is a significant difference between a person who has made a conscious effort to engage with the game, either by asking a friend to teach them to play or by seeking out a place to learn like an LGS, and a person who has maybe heard the name Magic: the Gathering but has never really given it a thought before seeing a product display at a big box store. Someone seeking out the game is already a win as far as WotC is concerned because they know the best way to learn is to have other people teach you, so the person that sought the game out is already most of the way toward being a player. Planeswalker decks are mostly a way to spark (bam, puns!) that initial engagement by making someone who otherwise wouldn't play the game stop, pick up the box and say "Hey, what's this? It looks interesting." That's what WotC is after here.
The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?
The Welcome Deck thing is mostly a personal hang up of mine. I basically never recommend new players buy anything without playing the game first. If I'm physically at my LGS, I've got time to sit down and play some Welcome Deck games and teach them the rules to see if they like it. No reason for me to suggest they spend a bunch of money just for them to end up not liking the game.
For what they are (free!) the Welcome Decks are fine, but for how much flak people give Planeswalker decks for being draft chaff... damn Welcome Decks are draft chaff. I remember using a blue one once to teach someone how to play and I had like 2 Ancient Crabs in a 30 card deck. That player still plays by the way, despite the fact I kept yelling "ARG! CRAB BATTLE!" whenever my crabs did anything.
Putting aside that silly tangent and moving on to the matter of the cost, Welcome Decks are super cheap (for example, no real packaging and they all come in those little paper deck boxes) and are basically gifts from WotC to LGSs to help support them. WotC needs LGSs, so it is in their interest to provide demo decks to make it easier for LGSs to grow a community. The same cannot be said for big box stores, where the Planeswalker decks are primarily aimed at. Also, the Planeswalker decks come with 2 booster packs, which make up roughly half the cost if you value them at MSRP.
Lets look at that deck you posted. Lets skip the rares and the plainwalker OK. I will concede that most of the time they are playable. In fact my issue isn't mostly with most of the cards themselves. It is how the decks are built. Seven cards costing 5 or more manna, zero ramp, only 10 cards costing two or less manna, you can't win with that curve. Lets actually break down that curve.
Cost/number
1/2
2/10 But two will not usually be able to be gainfully played on turn two do to lack of one drops.
3/7
4/8
5/5
6/1
7/1
Note there is zero ways to ramp, few way to regain lost tempo once behind, and very little in the way of card advantage. Some of the cards are notably off theme. Card quality issues aside these decks are extremely poorly built.
On top of this, these decks are USELESS to any not knowing how to play and not with anyone there to teach them. It does not come with an instruction book on how to play. The piece of scrape paper they put in is not enough of explanation on the rules to even began to play the game. This product will NOT help the people who just bought it to try the game without going beyond just buying a couple of decks and trying play them.
I am not crying the cards are draft chaff. My complaint is they are weaker then most draft decks because poor card on average quality parred with bad curve with cards horribly out of place make for a bad starter investment.
Look I am now saying these need to be competitive. In fact having case cards in them would be in fact a bad idea in my opinion. But is is really to much to ask to add a few more staple commons and commons every new player needs, keep the curve reasonable, and keep the cards on theme for the deck? I don't think so. That is my issue with plainwalker decks. I don't think they are doing new players any favors by forcing horrid deck design on top of a lot of under powered cards. They just aren't.
Tbh while I know these products are intended for new players, the first advice I'd give a new player would always be "don't buy these".
Which is a little bit sad.
And why would you do that?
Because they will not help a new player as a whole. The cards are jank and have no play ability against anything other than other plainswalker decks. The decks are poorly built. They don't provide a good launching point. Honestly I could build a better single expansion all common deck. In fact I build such decks fairly often.
When I see a new player I teach them with the free decks wizard provides and if they like the game I help them build a deck out of draft leftovers. These decks would retail for less than those plainswalker decks had the bought the cards as singles, but are better decks, with better cards. Yes they will still lose a lot but at least CAN win as the deck is at least built right with a good curve. And upgrading is easier as the deck has a better base.
I have taught over thirty people how to play in in my life. Most still playing to this day. My advice on these products is to avoid most of them. Play the starter deck I give them. Update ones collection though draft, prereleases and singles. Well and Commander decks as they often have good value and are playable out of the box if they want to start playing commander.
I would never suggest anyone buy a painswalker deck outside of collectors wanting to own them for completeness sake. They are just a bad product. Poorly built, poor card quality, and poor value. There is no upside for them to start the game with these weak decks that aren't a real upgrade to the free decks wizards gives newbies. I am with Azurhawk, my advice to new players is not to buy those decks. They aren't a good starting point. They don't demonstrate how to build a good deck. They are needlessly bad and aren't a good product for anyone really.
Arboretum Elemental Is going to be a beast in limited. It will be relatively easy to cast it on turn 4 or 5 with a solid curve and 7/5 hexproof creatures are extremely hard to answer. in limited as most board wipes are rare, it can't be targeted with removal and it is hard to trade with effectively and efficiently in combat. I am not looking forward to seeing it game after game in draft, though the thought of playing it makes me smile.
In constructed it isn't as good as board wipes are much more common, green stompy has plenty of cheap creatures that can trade up with it and counters are more effective as a strategy. Still I could see it finding a home is some token builds. It isn't likely to be worth a spot but it is worth exploring. Early 7/5 hexproof creatures can cause issues for decks not able to deal with it. A common limited bomb to be sure.
It is true that an Inalla deck usually loses to an unanswered Torpor orb but that is why you pack some artifact removal. Plus wizards have more than 2 unlimited combos, mine has 5 main ones. Plus it has won a few games through going wide and countering the stuff that it just couldn't handle. I am not knocking the power of the other tribes but wizards has more to it then ETB effects. They can easily play counter control winning through attrition if the combos are made off line. It just takes a while.
Would prefer Vampires or Jombies other than the overused wizards by Inalla. Inalla functions primarily on ETB effects, and if that is shut down the entire deck loses much of its win conditions. Wizards tribe doesn't have really much other angles besides draw wins via Azami+Labcon / counter magic heavy via the prodigies. This is the reason why I dropped Inalla after playing 3 games with her, every game is the same approach, stall out until I can get the either one of the combo (Wanderwine or Bloodline Necromancer) to go off. Opponent drops a Torpor orb and that's it. Other opponents will help protect that orb cuz it is the one card that will keep 1 player almost out of the game and they don't really need to worry much about the Inalla player since Inalla is neutered totally with that card.
Vampires and Zombies on the other hand, present different more ways to win within the tribe itself. From the small combos like Grey Merchant + Rites, to bigger recursion engines involving blood artist, viscera seer. Going these 2 tribes will present more angles to approach the game than wizard based Inalla.
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist and a bunch of wizards gets my vote. I have such a deck and it is great fun. It is flexible and can just win out of nowhere. She can be very disruptive with the constant bounce effects and counters. And she has a huge effect on the game in the command zone.
I rarely have issues keeping cards in hand, and I seen another deck on this site that has a graveyard theme with Inalla that looks interesting, it just isn't a direction I am interested in going. There has been a surge in graveyard decks in my meta lately and the hate is coming out in response. Just not interested in joining that mess more than my deck already does. But it is deffenatly an interesting idea to look at later.
I question what people determine as tied to a wincon
Often if you have a card like Armageddon in your hand and you have the best board it is strategically sound play to use it then.
Oops, just noticed you replied to me. I think that a valid wincon for LD is up for interpretation by everyone, but I would have to agree on your specific example. That would be a valid use. Most of the time, I don't see people using land destruction that strategically. But either way, one can argue (as I honestly do) that MLD is so asymmetrically overpowered to other locks, it might as well be a scoop condition and move to the next game. The only way to stop it is to run lots of counters or build a deck to specifically recover from it. People don't like to be forced to make such narrow plans just to play a game. So why use it? You can, but doesn't mean you should? It's not a like a pillow fort that can be shredded, or a combo that can be stopped with spot removal. There is literally no recovery from it in any time that is worth trying to. That's how I see it anyway.
I mean, I'm not going to cry about it or rant and rave in the game, but I'm not going to sit there while the whole table gets ground into the dirt and pretend I'm OK with it. Even worse, if someone plays that, and doesn't win smartly (as in durdling) and drags the game out, they'd better be packing heat next game because I'm going to come after them. Now, if they do win smartly after casting that, I'll accept it as a valid dick move (but still a dick move) and just move on. I can add that to my deck, I don't, but I accept others can if that gets them their kicks and giggles.
Have you ever tried holding on to a land or three in your hand? That with a low curve and a few mana rocks and your off to the races after MLD. It is called strategic preparedness and it is no different then holding up instant removal for a combo. I get the first time being caught unawares isn't pretty, but after the first time if it screws you game plan it's your bad play and it is on you. I have won many of games after my opponent wiped the lands from the field, with exactly this strategy. Try it next time you faced a LD deck.
Of course I played in metas that LD decks was common. People newer to the game just don't know how to deal with LD since they nerfed the strategy in standard play years ago.
That last ability, I wish it didn't have. It is a bit "win more". if I have 15 creatures in play there is a real possibility I am going to win anyway. But it could attract unwanted attention with the "win the game" clause. For commander that last ability could be a liability more than an asset. Drawing too much attention is the easiest way to lose in a causal game.
Still the first two abilities are all upside. White card draw is always a boon, Untapping my creatures is a real upside more than a cost, and tokens are a valuable resource especially given the number of things that trigger when they enter the battlefield. I need this card. Shame about the trap ability at the end being little more than a flashy "win more" effect that will draw hate more often then win you the game turning it into more of a "win less" ability.
I hope this is a new color ability granted to red or white. White especially as it doesn't even have impulse draw like red. But both colors could use a way to draw. As is both are weak in this area. White is so bad off in the card draw department that it actively makes playing mono white hard in commander as you are always out resourced. Please let this be a new white ability. White needs it bad.
Anyway this is the most generally useful command of the new commands. Five mana is a big ask but given all four modes have there uses most games, I could see this finding a home in a few Boros commander decks. Especially if that Boros deck is a go wide aggro deck. I know it has no business in a competitive deck, but let's be honest, a Boros commander deck likely isn't going to be all that competitive to start with.
Boros card draw, dang it isn't great, but beggars aren't choosers after all. Boros in the card draw department are definitely beggars. Yes, I realize red has better options with its impulsive draw, but none that can save your army in a pinch, remove something small, or pump your dudes to add that last little bit of damage if needs be. I like this command. Am I nuts?
Second thing I teach is manna curve. Walker decks lack this as well. Even bad cards can win if they curve well. Look at the early sligh decks early in MTG history. Ironclaw Orcs Actually seen play back in the day as a curve filler at the pro tour. It doesn't get much worse than those things. But they fit the strategy of the deck and the curve needed. Walker decks as I have shown don't curve out. They are poor in making sure you have a meaningful play turns two though five.
It would cost Wizards nothing to fix walker decks. Add more staples at common and uncommon new players need. Why isn't there a play set of murders in the deck? It would be valuable to get newbies easy access to these cards, and cost Wizards nothing, and doesn't hurt LGS at all cards under a dollar don't make stores much after labor and everything. Build the decks with one strategy, not three or four like the example deck above. And lastly make sure the deck curves out. These decks shouldn't be decks that out power an opponent with case cards, but they should be able to capitalize if an opponent's deck trips out the gate. And most importantly they should curve out more often not.
For new players it is important they see examples of how a deck should work. These are not that. Walker decks are exactly the kind of decks that are the opposite of how to build a deck. Weaker cards, not clear strategy, no curve, no clear upgrades, and lacks proper instructions on how to play, how exactly are these decks helping new players? Well I two murder are better then none, and newbies always need lands. That is something, but come on they deserve better. And I am not talking printing a competitive deck, just one that is better than the free decks Wizards puts out. They are paying for these decks after all.
And yes I have seen worse decks, but the bar shouldn't be lets make decks on par with what the greenest MTG players could build. The bar needs to be let's show them how to build a deck by example and let them grow from there.
Cost/number
1/2
2/10 But two will not usually be able to be gainfully played on turn two do to lack of one drops.
3/7
4/8
5/5
6/1
7/1
Note there is zero ways to ramp, few way to regain lost tempo once behind, and very little in the way of card advantage. Some of the cards are notably off theme. Card quality issues aside these decks are extremely poorly built.
On top of this, these decks are USELESS to any not knowing how to play and not with anyone there to teach them. It does not come with an instruction book on how to play. The piece of scrape paper they put in is not enough of explanation on the rules to even began to play the game. This product will NOT help the people who just bought it to try the game without going beyond just buying a couple of decks and trying play them.
I am not crying the cards are draft chaff. My complaint is they are weaker then most draft decks because poor card on average quality parred with bad curve with cards horribly out of place make for a bad starter investment.
Look I am now saying these need to be competitive. In fact having case cards in them would be in fact a bad idea in my opinion. But is is really to much to ask to add a few more staple commons and commons every new player needs, keep the curve reasonable, and keep the cards on theme for the deck? I don't think so. That is my issue with plainwalker decks. I don't think they are doing new players any favors by forcing horrid deck design on top of a lot of under powered cards. They just aren't.
When I see a new player I teach them with the free decks wizard provides and if they like the game I help them build a deck out of draft leftovers. These decks would retail for less than those plainswalker decks had the bought the cards as singles, but are better decks, with better cards. Yes they will still lose a lot but at least CAN win as the deck is at least built right with a good curve. And upgrading is easier as the deck has a better base.
I have taught over thirty people how to play in in my life. Most still playing to this day. My advice on these products is to avoid most of them. Play the starter deck I give them. Update ones collection though draft, prereleases and singles. Well and Commander decks as they often have good value and are playable out of the box if they want to start playing commander.
I would never suggest anyone buy a painswalker deck outside of collectors wanting to own them for completeness sake. They are just a bad product. Poorly built, poor card quality, and poor value. There is no upside for them to start the game with these weak decks that aren't a real upgrade to the free decks wizards gives newbies. I am with Azurhawk, my advice to new players is not to buy those decks. They aren't a good starting point. They don't demonstrate how to build a good deck. They are needlessly bad and aren't a good product for anyone really.
In constructed it isn't as good as board wipes are much more common, green stompy has plenty of cheap creatures that can trade up with it and counters are more effective as a strategy. Still I could see it finding a home is some token builds. It isn't likely to be worth a spot but it is worth exploring. Early 7/5 hexproof creatures can cause issues for decks not able to deal with it. A common limited bomb to be sure.
Of course I played in metas that LD decks was common. People newer to the game just don't know how to deal with LD since they nerfed the strategy in standard play years ago.