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  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from Stairc »
    I'm going to stop engaging with you on this now, because I don't see the point of continually swatting away this kind of quote-miney, goal-post-shifty stuff.
    I reread my posts just to make sure I was or was not doing this, and I don't see it. I started with:

    Quote from Taylor »
    I have faith in the scientific method.

    And I stuck to pretty much just that.
    I also stated a few tautologies like:
    Quote from Taylor »
    I am not arguing what 'requires' justification. I am simply pointing out things that are without justification are -by definition- "unjustified."

    Some philosophical facts, like:
    Quote from Taylor »
    I was trying to invoke the Munchhausen trilemma, which -as far as I know- is inescapable. We all -as far as I know- are stuck in that metaphorical mud, with no way out.
    And, asked a bunch of questions about how you justified declaring things unassailable.
    Soo...... If I was goal post shifting, I don't know where. I'm pretty sure I stayed on-message. Mainly, you can't use the scientific method to prove the scientific method. And, since I only really accept the scientific method as the way to get closer to answers, I have to trust it.
    Can you show me where I goal-post-shifted?

    I mean, YOU were talking about a bunch of other stuff. But, you were talking past me, so I didn't really feel the need to respond to it. I was more talking about how the Munchhausen trilemma forces us to do what Highroller is talking about to DJK3654. It is also related to the discussion you are having with Crushing00 on the other thread; mainly, logic can't be used to prove logic. Thus, you MUST (as a logical necessity) accept SOMETHING without justification, so you can justify other things. You have to have a bases to start from, and you can't justify your bases because -if you do- it no longer is your bases; your justification is and will become your new bases unless you try to justify IT, which only kicks the can further down the road.

    If you want a more formal version of what we're all trying to say, you should check out Tarski's undefinability theorem. It is -again- more of the same.

    Humans CANNOT prove everything; we've proven it.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from Stairc »
    Taylor, at least try reading the whole post if you want to respond to it. I'm not going to waste time quoting myself when I specifically addressed this already in the same post your snipped that out of. Quote mining doesn't work against the person you're quote mining.
    I'm not going to continue to engage with you if you continue in this vein.
    We were done the moment you told me what I was trying to discuss was unarguable.
    You might be trying to make this about something else, but I'm not going into your "pick AorB" strawman.

    You believe feelings -like a belief in faith or a belief in a desire for pleasure- are unassailable. Full stop. End of discussion.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from Stairc »
    I have no doubt that you believe you have faith in the scientific method.
    Good. Then I guess -by your own argument- nothing more can be said.
    "The feeling is a description of my inarguable experience. I know what I am feeling. "

    So, you -or anyone else- can't 'coherently' question my own thoughts. You can't tell me I 'shouldn't' have faith anymore than I can tell you you 'shouldn't' like pleasure. So, I guess that's that. There isn't any disagreement, only a need for clarification, which has been given. I have faith (which is a mod of thought), and you can't argue.

    Right? I am understanding your point correctly? (<-not rhetorical)
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    The statement in question is:
    Quote from Taylor »
    I have faith in the scientific method.
    which is an 'internal' claim about my thoughts and feelings with regards to the scientific method.

    Since I don't share you're opinion that some things 'should be' unassailable, I will fully admit this to be an axiom.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    How are you justifying
    Quote from Stairc »
    However, unlike many axioms, it is inarguable and unquestionable.
    How are you justifying that it's "inarguable and unquestionable?"
    I mean, aren't we arguing and questioning it right now?

    How are you justifying
    Quote from Stairc »
    I know what I am feeling. This is indeed axiomatic under the trilemma. However, unlike many axioms, it is inarguable and unquestionable. You feel what you feel by definition of what the word "feel" means.

    I thought that was one of the major issues people had with 'faith;' that it was declared "inarguable and unquestionable." That it was a feeling they have deep inside they know to be true.

    How can you tell me your feelings about pleasure and pain are assailable, but mine about the scientific method shouldn't be?
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Edit/clarification:
    This link is meant to go to this page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchhausen_trilemma
    I guess I confused the forum software with my "ü."
    If you look at the format of that post (quote the original, and note it's not been edited by me) you can see it does. I guess the assumption was I was making some glib statement about circular reasoning with a circular link.
    I wasn't.

    I was trying to invoke the Munchhausen trilemma, which -as far as I know- is inescapable. We all -as far as I know- are stuck in that metaphorical mud, with no way out.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from Stairc »
    I am describing my personal preference. This is simply a fact that I observe about myself. It requires no external justification.
    Changing "justified" to "proof" or back again doesn't save you.

    I am not arguing what 'requires' justification. I am simply pointing out things that are without justification are -by definition- "unjustified."
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from Stairc »
    Nothing in this process is unjustified.
    How are you justifying not liking pain and liking pleasure?
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Stairc, you did read the part where he said "Science is one of the methods that I can justify using this process," right?

    I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sleep deprived and stressed out; so, I'm not going to tell you my reading of that block of text is spot on, but the ONLY specific 'method' he has mentioned so far (as far as I can tell) is 'science.' So, my reading of that quote was "I can then using this principle (which is science and some other stuff I'm not naming) to choose the methods of justification (scientific method) for truth by assuming those methods (scientific method) are true because they fit my principle(which is -again- science and some other stuff I'm not naming)."

    But -Stairc- you might disagree to what extent that is 'circular reasoning' (because of the 'some other stuff I'm not naming'); however, you know where I am going with this. He's going to have to eventually accept something without proof or justification, 'faith,' as a starting point. I mean, he already has admitted as much a few times, he's just not seeing it.

    We both know he's going round in circles trying to catch his own tail, or pull himself out of the mud by his own hair.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    My 'belief' in science is a justified assumption,
    Justified by what? Because:
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I can then using this principle to choose the methods of justification for truth by assuming those methods are true because they fit my principle.
    Isn't a legitimate justification; it's a quintessential example of circular reasoning.
    You might as well have said: "I am justified in assuming the Bible is true, because the Bible says right in it that it's true."
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    In response to your last comment, a really good argument as to why it is not one of the most useful methods for justifying propositions- some reason why it fails. Or perhaps, as it may be, some alternative exterior principle for justifying propositions that is in some way better than practicality.
    Can you give a concrete example? Or imagine one?
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I can then using this principle to choose the methods of justification for truth by assuming those methods are true because they fit my principle.
    Ummm... yeah... nothing wrong there...
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    it seems foolish and unnecessary to have faith in it instead of simply affirming it as a useful method for determining working truths. Sure, science can't determine absolute truths


    So, you don't see any connection between "simply affirming" something is true (knowing you'll never have absolute proof) and "faith?"

    Cuz....

    "Faith is complete confidence or trust in a person or thing; or a belief not based on proof."[1]


    Anyway, in your OP, you asked: "What would change your mind?"

    I would like to ask you what it would take to shake your 'confidence' in the scientific method?
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on The Paris Attack-What Now?
    Quote from Frostdragon4 »
    Altogether, I am not really certain about what ISIS gains out of the deal, really.
    They gain hate.
    But, not just hate towards them, hate towards Islam.

    They want Muslims living in the West to be mistrusted and shunned. They want non-radical Muslims to be kicked out of communities.
    They want everyone who is not Muslim to hate Muslims, so -in that disrepair- those hated Muslims will turn to ISIS.

    I'm just going to leave these here:
    http://imgur.com/gallery/YUiKI
    Posted in: Debate
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    If not the scientific method, what method do you use to determine those working truths are working truths?
    And, do you have faith in that method?
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Define your faith
    I have faith in the scientific method.
    Posted in: Religion
  • posted a message on Is raising children with religion child abuse?
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I don't think there is a clear answer because of the limitations on getting one. I'm not going to go out and do study to determine the answer
    Right. You don't think there is an answer, and you're not going to check.

    But, since I've already done my own literature search and gotten info I am satisfied with, I guess I shouldn't let your Argument from Ignorance bother me.
    Posted in: Religion
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