I haven't lost to control. I run 3 TKS, 2 Reality Smasher, 3 Tireless tracker out of the board.
They'll counter a few spells.
But every threat is backbreaking.
Tracker has to die on arrival or he takes over the game.
TKS being a 4/4 means their removal lines up poorly. We get info to play around their hand and take one of their best spells.
Reality Smasher is the bane of all things control.
World Breaker starts blowing up their lands.
Ulamog is Ulamog.
Post-board vs Black based decks, I'll take Ulamog out. Lost Legacy naming Ulamog is LOL. I switch the deck to more of a midrange deck by siding in dudes, and taking out a lot of my spot removal.
Let me clarify, and then I hope we can move on from this pissing fest.
Nothing about Devil and Claim is a budge build. The point of the budget comment was simply this: You agree to Terms of Service that you won't discuss budge/inferior options in the competitive forums. At a point, someone said "Well, I'm just going to do it for fun anyways." Well that's great, but if you realize it's a just for fun deck, this really isn't the place for it. And that's not my attempt to be a jerk, it's just what the people that made the board put forth.
You should be able to discuss anything on here. Devil may be polarizing, but it rarely shows up in lists that place. I think most people that regularly run burn agree cards that give your opponent a choice are bad. This is also part of why we don't run browbeat, which has some power if you can trap your opponent into a corner.
But rather than hearing that response and saying "I see what you mean," It's a lot of "Did you not see the youtube videos? I don't think you understand the power level of claim." Claim is a fine card. It's got power. Bringing creatures back from the graveyard just isn't what we do. You're not burn at that point. You lose the efficiency of the deck by spending a turn to bring a creature back.
There's also spots where it's a dead card. Lightning Helix/Boros charm are pretty well never dead.
No Creatures in GY? Don't cast claim. Your opening hand becomes clunky and awkward if you have 2 lands, 4 burn spells, and a claim.
Claim is bad in the late game when Abzan has a wall of goyfs, souls, and rhinos to get in the way of Devil or Eidolon.
If you're running a card in "burn" it needs to deal damage or draw a card (or in path's case deal with something that we otherwise can't so we don't lose on the spot).
Bringing back 1-2 drops from the graveyard probably goes better in a midrange, creature heavy deck.
I understand the argument "I went 13-3 with it" Lightning Bolt and it's cousins are just good cards. Even watered down, burn is powerful and consistent. You'll win a lot.
This is supposed to be a competitive forum. They openly discourage you from posting about budget builds.
There are dozens of pages of Vexing devil discussion spread across multiple primers.
Running a second card to hope to make that card better--Magic 101 says don't do such a thing.
You return your devil and they have a 4/5 Tarmagoyf--Devil doesn't get through.
You could cast fame to give the devil +2/+0--it'll still die. It's sorcery speed too--so they know what's coming at them.
You cast claim and fame, all 3 mana--at sorcery speed no less--you killed a Tarmagoyf. Good job. No damage. They're no closer to dead. Same 3 mana could have gone to a Lightning helix and a bolt, they lose 6 life that way--seems to be more in line with how we like to do things.
This deck will perform, because at it's core--it's burn. Burn is good. Burn wins games.
There is a place in the world for Claim//fame. It's just not burn
Claim/fame isn't a burn card. It makes our overall strategy worse.
Are there times it works and has power? Sure.
Are there times we draw it and needed any burn spell instead and cry? Yup.
Devil is bad. Just because you found a reanimate card, it's still bad.
Anti-burn players are figuring out that Courser of Kruphix is a pain in our ass, and we're discussing 4 mana cards. Gotta go with El Conquistador here.
You either run out of burn spells or die trying. Part of the game is being patient, and waiting on spells.
Part of it is getting as much creature damage in as you can and then playing defense while you draw the last 1-2 cards.
The Boros version to me feels smoother.
Atarka's command is insanely powerful, but it isn't removal when you need it. A lot of times, it functions as a skullcrack.
Except skullcrack's damage can't be prevented clause makes skullcrack better in those situations.
Also having to fetch and shock multiple times is brutal in game 1.
Took this list to a PPTQ, went 4-2. Other than 1 game in 1 match where I drew 9 lands, the deck ran amazing.
Round 1: Jeskai tempo:
Game 1 was a lot of burn very quickly. I'm on the play. Not much of a game. He kills a few of my guys and gets a Young Pyromancer and a Stormchaser mage.
Based on the tempo aspect and the fact that he seems to be playing a moderate amount of creatures, I assume that he's brining in Firewalker. I feel that matchup is pretty favorable for me, other than if he throws multiple Lightning helix at me--and all I can do is hope to skullcrack it.
In: 2 Path to Exile. Out: 2 Rift Bolt--not sure if this was right, but the tempo aspect made me not want to play too much suspend.
Game 2: I get him to 2. 5/6 draws are lands. The one spell I draw he counters with a negate
Game 3: Turn 0 Leyline. My hand was all targeted burn. Annoyingly he admitted he would have rather played Firewalkers, but didn't own them. Dang.
Round 2: Merfolk--against a guy that exclusively plays merfolk and plays it very well.
Game 1: I'm on the play, he gets a slow start. On his turn, he has me dead if he has double lord, he has a mutavault, 3 islands, and a vial on 2. He Casts Kira, I searing blaze a fish person in response. He immediately realizes he had me dead--he's down to 3 and I have 4 cards in hand and he says just show me the bolt, which I do.
Game 2: Against my instincts, a friend convinced me to stop playing Revelries and just fetch around spreading seas.
In: 3 Path, 1 Lavamancer. Out: 4 Eidolon
He's on the play, again gets a slow start. He doesn't get a vial this time. I drop an early Lavamancer, and am able to point all of my fire at him. Pretty quick ending
Game 3: 4 Color humans. I have minimal experience with this matchup. I've seen a few lists, but that's all. I'd love to hear people's takes on how to play it.
Game 1: I'm on the play, T1 Guide into T2 Swift spear and I bolt his Champion of the Parrish. T3 Eidolon doesn't matter as he collected companies around it. His dudes grow. I chump block a few times, get him to 2. The bolt I threw at the champion of Parrish would have gotten him dead, but maybe I die a turn sooner?
In: 3 Path, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Grafdigger's cage. Out: 4 Lava Spike, 1 Boros Charm
I had a red hot start. Felt amazing about getting there. I have my 3rd land up, suspend a rift bolt, have a skullcrack and a Rift bolt left in hand, he's at I think 10. The board is clogged enough now that I'm not attacking through anymore. He casts meddling mage naming Rift Bolt--1 suspended and 1 in my hand. I durdled and got a few extra draw spells, but didn't have enough burn in the end.
Round 4: Affinity
I'm on the play with no 1 drops, but 5 spells and 2 lands isn't a hand I like to let go of. I play Arid mesa and pass.
She plays an Inkmoth nexus and I think a spring leaf drum.
I untap and slam and Eidolon, he does 6-8 damage before she's able to remove it.
I untap and slam a second Eidolon to a loud groan.
Game 2: In: 4 Revelry, 1 Lavamancer, 2 Deflecting Palm
Out: 4 Eidolon, 3 Boros Charm
She has a so/so start, but plays a T1 Vault Skirge on the play. He gets in for 1 lifelink. I untap and searing blaze it. She plays the 2nd, which I think searing blaze again. From there I'm way ahead, and it's a quick end.
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron
I actually practice this matchup with a friend a lot the night before. You still can't beat their crazy draws, but I'm extremely comfortable with the matchup.
Game 1: Creature heavy start. He casts a ballista on 1 to try to chump block, but I searing blaze it away. Not much of a game.
Game 2: In:4 Revelry, 2 Deflecting Palm Out: 4 Eidolon, 2 searing blaze
We both mulligan to 6. His scry goes to the bottom, I keep a land on top. He finds a land way too late.
Not typically this swell of a matchup, but hey, I'll take it.
Round 6: UW control.
I haven't played this matchup much. I've certainly played my share of Jeskai control though, and I like my chances in a non-lightning helix deck.
Game 1: I'm the most deliberate I've been all day. Swift spear gets in for 1, he plays a flooded strand and passes. I untap and turn her sideways immediately to get the path out of him. He casts it, and I play an Eidolon. Eidolon gets a few hits in before eating a path. I wait a few turns to turn off mana leak and spell pierce, and get 1 spell eaten by a Cryptic command. I throw another, untap and another.
Game 2: Expecting Leyline this time, I board in 4 Revelries. Other than that as an Insurance policy, I'm happy to run it back.
No Leyline.
I see a lot of lands early, and it's a waiting game. I play my 2nd land and pass. He cracks his fetch leaving him with 1 land up, and I Boros Charm in response to play around mana leak. Turn 3 I serve up and Eidolon and find out he does in fact have the mana leak. I see 2 skullcracks during the game, and threw one out when he taps out for Cryptic command.
I keep saving the other for the Sphinx's Revelation. I send 1 bolt spell at a time, and get him down to 6. With a hand of Shard Volley and Skullcrack, I draw a lava spike. I offer up the Lavaspike to send him to 3, he sphinx's on top of that--and I show him the 2 instants.
Been running hot online with this.
I traded in a ton of cards to get the fancy grim lavamancers, and being able to pick apart Elves/Merfolk/Affinity make me miss him. But I've run pretty Well vs Affinity with this.
Considerations at the moment: While Path is great in certain spots, I never feel like I use it THAT much. I think I could drop to two and be fine.
Stony just wrecks affinity, and I'd love two. But I've won plenty of games without it. With Eldrazi tron on the rise, seems really good vs Walking Ballista
Is Relic the right answer? Going to a PPTQ this weekend, and expect to see some degree of Kitchen Finks comb decks as well as some Death's Shadow--and Dredge--although it seems like dredge isn't as popular. Also there's usually some degree of Goyf based decks. Living End--I've not seen as much in the past, but the area tends to be "trendy."
I like the idea of dropping a Relic and wittling away their GY. It shrinks Goyfs.
And then Rest in Peace: Shrinks Goyfs, Slows down Dredge, Turns off Snapcaster, slows down Finks--but they can collected company or cord into an answer.
I think I talked myself into RiP.
I feel like every tournament I go to I see several burn players. I've been running Kor Firewalker, but I always feel they're so narrow. If I stick with 3 path, I've got answers for opposing Firewalkers. Skullcrack happens more often than I'd expect. I may go down to 1 to have a single "Silver bullet."
Ensnaring Bridge buys time or at the very least complicates their decisions. Most decks have main deck answers to it. GBx has Decay. Jund/Grixis decks have K command But if it buys me 2-3 more draws, I'll take that. Some decks won't/can't beat it. Merfolk has largely gone away from Hurkyl's Recall. I was honestly not a fan, but I've definitely come around.
Deflecting PalmI'm fine with it as a 1 of. Drawing multiples often spells trouble.
I played online tonight with Grixis Death Shadow--couldn't beat burn.
Then played with burn and creamed Death shadow.
Bridge is clutch, but I never played it.
I was Inquisition'd and he took the Deflecting palm instead of the bridge--which I took as "I'll K command away a creature and bridge." So after Turn 2 comes without a discard spell, I'm hoping he doesn't top deck and sandbag the Bridge, burning him at the end of his turn. He finally plays the K command to make me discard and burn the Eidolon--He plays a Death Shadow that is now a 7/7, but I had a hand of Boros Charm and Lightning Helix.
The games really come down to Eidolon. If they can't remove Eidolon pretty quickly, it goes poorly.
Essentially gives the deck 8 copies of Thermo-alchemist, except it can also attack.
Also, with the damage coming off of instant/sorcery spells--I think I would include some number of Gitaxian probe. There's of course value in seeing their hand.
They'll counter a few spells.
But every threat is backbreaking.
Tracker has to die on arrival or he takes over the game.
TKS being a 4/4 means their removal lines up poorly. We get info to play around their hand and take one of their best spells.
Reality Smasher is the bane of all things control.
World Breaker starts blowing up their lands.
Ulamog is Ulamog.
Post-board vs Black based decks, I'll take Ulamog out. Lost Legacy naming Ulamog is LOL. I switch the deck to more of a midrange deck by siding in dudes, and taking out a lot of my spot removal.
To those seeing time will tell--we've seen it place well.
Mardu burn isnt a bad variant. Claim to fame is bad in burn, and Rakdos only gives up a lot of power.
Nothing about Devil and Claim is a budge build. The point of the budget comment was simply this: You agree to Terms of Service that you won't discuss budge/inferior options in the competitive forums. At a point, someone said "Well, I'm just going to do it for fun anyways." Well that's great, but if you realize it's a just for fun deck, this really isn't the place for it. And that's not my attempt to be a jerk, it's just what the people that made the board put forth.
You should be able to discuss anything on here. Devil may be polarizing, but it rarely shows up in lists that place. I think most people that regularly run burn agree cards that give your opponent a choice are bad. This is also part of why we don't run browbeat, which has some power if you can trap your opponent into a corner.
But rather than hearing that response and saying "I see what you mean," It's a lot of "Did you not see the youtube videos? I don't think you understand the power level of claim." Claim is a fine card. It's got power. Bringing creatures back from the graveyard just isn't what we do. You're not burn at that point. You lose the efficiency of the deck by spending a turn to bring a creature back.
There's also spots where it's a dead card. Lightning Helix/Boros charm are pretty well never dead.
No Creatures in GY? Don't cast claim. Your opening hand becomes clunky and awkward if you have 2 lands, 4 burn spells, and a claim.
Claim is bad in the late game when Abzan has a wall of goyfs, souls, and rhinos to get in the way of Devil or Eidolon.
If you're running a card in "burn" it needs to deal damage or draw a card (or in path's case deal with something that we otherwise can't so we don't lose on the spot).
Bringing back 1-2 drops from the graveyard probably goes better in a midrange, creature heavy deck.
I understand the argument "I went 13-3 with it" Lightning Bolt and it's cousins are just good cards. Even watered down, burn is powerful and consistent. You'll win a lot.
Any variant running Vexing devil is not.
Claim//fame is not.
This is supposed to be a competitive forum. They openly discourage you from posting about budget builds.
There are dozens of pages of Vexing devil discussion spread across multiple primers.
Running a second card to hope to make that card better--Magic 101 says don't do such a thing.
You return your devil and they have a 4/5 Tarmagoyf--Devil doesn't get through.
You could cast fame to give the devil +2/+0--it'll still die. It's sorcery speed too--so they know what's coming at them.
You cast claim and fame, all 3 mana--at sorcery speed no less--you killed a Tarmagoyf. Good job. No damage. They're no closer to dead. Same 3 mana could have gone to a Lightning helix and a bolt, they lose 6 life that way--seems to be more in line with how we like to do things.
This deck will perform, because at it's core--it's burn. Burn is good. Burn wins games.
There is a place in the world for Claim//fame. It's just not burn
Are there times it works and has power? Sure.
Are there times we draw it and needed any burn spell instead and cry? Yup.
Devil is bad. Just because you found a reanimate card, it's still bad.
Multiple 1 mana spells will.
2. If we're playing 4 drops, why not Chandra Torch od Defiance?
She gives us access to an extra card each turn. Lands become 2 damage. Path won't hit her.
You either run out of burn spells or die trying. Part of the game is being patient, and waiting on spells.
Part of it is getting as much creature damage in as you can and then playing defense while you draw the last 1-2 cards.
The Boros version to me feels smoother.
Atarka's command is insanely powerful, but it isn't removal when you need it. A lot of times, it functions as a skullcrack.
Except skullcrack's damage can't be prevented clause makes skullcrack better in those situations.
Also having to fetch and shock multiple times is brutal in game 1.
You'll play tons of games where they can't draw removal and he deals 8.
If you're really running hot, he'll deal 6-8 and you'll topdeck a new one to replace the one that just died.
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Skullcrack
4x Searing Blaze
4x Boros Charm
3x Lightning Helix
1x Shard Volley
4x Destructive Revelry
3x Path to Exile
2x Deflecting Palm
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Grim Lavamancer
Took this list to a PPTQ, went 4-2. Other than 1 game in 1 match where I drew 9 lands, the deck ran amazing.
Round 1: Jeskai tempo:
Game 1 was a lot of burn very quickly. I'm on the play. Not much of a game. He kills a few of my guys and gets a Young Pyromancer and a Stormchaser mage.
Based on the tempo aspect and the fact that he seems to be playing a moderate amount of creatures, I assume that he's brining in Firewalker. I feel that matchup is pretty favorable for me, other than if he throws multiple Lightning helix at me--and all I can do is hope to skullcrack it.
In: 2 Path to Exile. Out: 2 Rift Bolt--not sure if this was right, but the tempo aspect made me not want to play too much suspend.
Game 2: I get him to 2. 5/6 draws are lands. The one spell I draw he counters with a negate
Game 3: Turn 0 Leyline. My hand was all targeted burn. Annoyingly he admitted he would have rather played Firewalkers, but didn't own them. Dang.
Round 2: Merfolk--against a guy that exclusively plays merfolk and plays it very well.
Game 1: I'm on the play, he gets a slow start. On his turn, he has me dead if he has double lord, he has a mutavault, 3 islands, and a vial on 2. He Casts Kira, I searing blaze a fish person in response. He immediately realizes he had me dead--he's down to 3 and I have 4 cards in hand and he says just show me the bolt, which I do.
Game 2: Against my instincts, a friend convinced me to stop playing Revelries and just fetch around spreading seas.
In: 3 Path, 1 Lavamancer. Out: 4 Eidolon
He's on the play, again gets a slow start. He doesn't get a vial this time. I drop an early Lavamancer, and am able to point all of my fire at him. Pretty quick ending
Game 3: 4 Color humans. I have minimal experience with this matchup. I've seen a few lists, but that's all. I'd love to hear people's takes on how to play it.
Game 1: I'm on the play, T1 Guide into T2 Swift spear and I bolt his Champion of the Parrish. T3 Eidolon doesn't matter as he collected companies around it. His dudes grow. I chump block a few times, get him to 2. The bolt I threw at the champion of Parrish would have gotten him dead, but maybe I die a turn sooner?
In: 3 Path, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Grafdigger's cage. Out: 4 Lava Spike, 1 Boros Charm
I had a red hot start. Felt amazing about getting there. I have my 3rd land up, suspend a rift bolt, have a skullcrack and a Rift bolt left in hand, he's at I think 10. The board is clogged enough now that I'm not attacking through anymore. He casts meddling mage naming Rift Bolt--1 suspended and 1 in my hand. I durdled and got a few extra draw spells, but didn't have enough burn in the end.
Round 4: Affinity
I'm on the play with no 1 drops, but 5 spells and 2 lands isn't a hand I like to let go of. I play Arid mesa and pass.
She plays an Inkmoth nexus and I think a spring leaf drum.
I untap and slam and Eidolon, he does 6-8 damage before she's able to remove it.
I untap and slam a second Eidolon to a loud groan.
Game 2: In: 4 Revelry, 1 Lavamancer, 2 Deflecting Palm
Out: 4 Eidolon, 3 Boros Charm
She has a so/so start, but plays a T1 Vault Skirge on the play. He gets in for 1 lifelink. I untap and searing blaze it. She plays the 2nd, which I think searing blaze again. From there I'm way ahead, and it's a quick end.
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron
I actually practice this matchup with a friend a lot the night before. You still can't beat their crazy draws, but I'm extremely comfortable with the matchup.
Game 1: Creature heavy start. He casts a ballista on 1 to try to chump block, but I searing blaze it away. Not much of a game.
Game 2: In:4 Revelry, 2 Deflecting Palm Out: 4 Eidolon, 2 searing blaze
We both mulligan to 6. His scry goes to the bottom, I keep a land on top. He finds a land way too late.
Not typically this swell of a matchup, but hey, I'll take it.
Round 6: UW control.
I haven't played this matchup much. I've certainly played my share of Jeskai control though, and I like my chances in a non-lightning helix deck.
Game 1: I'm the most deliberate I've been all day. Swift spear gets in for 1, he plays a flooded strand and passes. I untap and turn her sideways immediately to get the path out of him. He casts it, and I play an Eidolon. Eidolon gets a few hits in before eating a path. I wait a few turns to turn off mana leak and spell pierce, and get 1 spell eaten by a Cryptic command. I throw another, untap and another.
Game 2: Expecting Leyline this time, I board in 4 Revelries. Other than that as an Insurance policy, I'm happy to run it back.
No Leyline.
I see a lot of lands early, and it's a waiting game. I play my 2nd land and pass. He cracks his fetch leaving him with 1 land up, and I Boros Charm in response to play around mana leak. Turn 3 I serve up and Eidolon and find out he does in fact have the mana leak. I see 2 skullcracks during the game, and threw one out when he taps out for Cryptic command.
I keep saving the other for the Sphinx's Revelation. I send 1 bolt spell at a time, and get him down to 6. With a hand of Shard Volley and Skullcrack, I draw a lava spike. I offer up the Lavaspike to send him to 3, he sphinx's on top of that--and I show him the 2 instants.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
3 Lightning Helix
1 Shard Volley
4 Lava Spike
3 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bride
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Stony Silence
Been running hot online with this.
I traded in a ton of cards to get the fancy grim lavamancers, and being able to pick apart Elves/Merfolk/Affinity make me miss him. But I've run pretty Well vs Affinity with this.
Considerations at the moment: While Path is great in certain spots, I never feel like I use it THAT much. I think I could drop to two and be fine.
Stony just wrecks affinity, and I'd love two. But I've won plenty of games without it. With Eldrazi tron on the rise, seems really good vs Walking Ballista
Is Relic the right answer? Going to a PPTQ this weekend, and expect to see some degree of Kitchen Finks comb decks as well as some Death's Shadow--and Dredge--although it seems like dredge isn't as popular. Also there's usually some degree of Goyf based decks. Living End--I've not seen as much in the past, but the area tends to be "trendy."
I like the idea of dropping a Relic and wittling away their GY. It shrinks Goyfs.
But, Grafdigger's Cage shuts off dredge guys returning, Finks combo/Collected Company, Cord of CallingSnapcaster Mage etc.
And then Rest in Peace: Shrinks Goyfs, Slows down Dredge, Turns off Snapcaster, slows down Finks--but they can collected company or cord into an answer.
I think I talked myself into RiP.
I feel like every tournament I go to I see several burn players. I've been running Kor Firewalker, but I always feel they're so narrow. If I stick with 3 path, I've got answers for opposing Firewalkers. Skullcrack happens more often than I'd expect. I may go down to 1 to have a single "Silver bullet."
Ensnaring Bridge buys time or at the very least complicates their decisions. Most decks have main deck answers to it. GBx has Decay. Jund/Grixis decks have K command But if it buys me 2-3 more draws, I'll take that. Some decks won't/can't beat it. Merfolk has largely gone away from Hurkyl's Recall. I was honestly not a fan, but I've definitely come around.
Deflecting PalmI'm fine with it as a 1 of. Drawing multiples often spells trouble.
Then played with burn and creamed Death shadow.
Bridge is clutch, but I never played it.
I was Inquisition'd and he took the Deflecting palm instead of the bridge--which I took as "I'll K command away a creature and bridge." So after Turn 2 comes without a discard spell, I'm hoping he doesn't top deck and sandbag the Bridge, burning him at the end of his turn. He finally plays the K command to make me discard and burn the Eidolon--He plays a Death Shadow that is now a 7/7, but I had a hand of Boros Charm and Lightning Helix.
The games really come down to Eidolon. If they can't remove Eidolon pretty quickly, it goes poorly.
Essentially gives the deck 8 copies of Thermo-alchemist, except it can also attack.
Also, with the damage coming off of instant/sorcery spells--I think I would include some number of Gitaxian probe. There's of course value in seeing their hand.