Jund is probably the worst deck in Modern that is a playable deck, GB isn't too far behind it. I would not recommend playing this deck or any mid-range deck if you are looking for wins or competitive games. I would also not recommend Jund or GB if you suffer from depression or have suicidal thoughts.
Just look at this thread. I scrolled back a few a pages, there is nobody on here celebrating anything. Entire weeks go by without a single post. And when there is a post, it is someone suggesting something new for the deck, that is only immediately shot down, with good reason usually. I've been playing this deck for a long time now, hoping that something would make midrange playable but we are beyond that now. Nobody wants fair games, they want infinite loop or instant kill. Playing anything else, you are just wasting your time. Move on to some other deck, that is easier to play, like Burn or Tron.
Close this thread. It's over.
GB/X is still a incredibly powerful archetype. The only problem is that right now it's no longer top dog and has a high chance of never being the best of the best again for a long time. After all my years of playing modern I can say it's all about trends. Your either in or your out. Right now GB/X is not popular so it's not being played nearly as often as it used to be by people. Does that in any way mean it's less powerful? No just underrepresented currently. A good amount of people that play GB/X in general from my personal experience have typically higher skill sets and knowledge about modern in general so these 50/50 decks are usually able to carry them further then other decks. This does not mean all players who use GB/X are elitist it means they either like the archetype or are very spiky. No matter what GB/X will always lurk in modern being able to prey on decks. WotC always eventually prints a new thing for the GB/X archetype that boost its power level back up.
I've always favored lean lists, and outside of a difference in 1 land base, my land bases have often looked like yours. The only time we disagree'd heavily on a land base was on a Rabblemaster list.
I do feel I'm pretty right when certain GBx archetypes are going to trend up or down or be irrelevant, usually. Sadly, this time around it just feels rough to be playing fair. We have the aggro decks going underneath, the GY stuff being degenerate, and a ton of Big Mana decks. It's stretching the 75 we're allowed to have in too many directions.
Dude every time i see you i'm starting to debate if your a lucky charm or a black cat. Usually you say something along the lines of "jund is bad switch to X Deck instead" shortly after jund rises up. Weird facts aside i do agree with some of what you said and nice seeing you again.
This list has a similar manacurve to the standard build before the gitaxian probe ban. And this build ran 24 lands as standard. Therefore you need 24 lands for this curve and I would suggest to add another land by either cutting a three drop or the 4th Trophy.
I agree and i'll probably be dropping the rabble despite it giving me the win today im actually quite happy with 23 lands though so i might test it a bit longer to see if it can continue to put up results. Also a mountain in my opening hand was a new source of feel bad.
@moondemon88 : spicy MD cards ! You win points of style to have sulfur elemental in sideboard by the way !
It remember me the old Willy Edel's list with MD anger of gods and courser of kruphix, anyone try that since some months ?
Honestly my sb was unchanged from my lgs meta so take it with a grain of salt. My friend basically picked me up and said "lets go" very last min so i didn't have time to change it. I got lucky with the match ups till the end. Most of which i tend to play against. if the jund guy actually fetched better without wasting his life total for no reason i believe it would of been more 60/40 in his favor as i didn't think anyone would be playing jund for a while. Sulfur Elemental was just a random card i mentioned the other day was good against a few x/1 white decks so i threw it in to mess with a few decks at my lgs.
Pretty straight he dropped his hand by turn 2 and both games i top decked a anger of the gods to wipe his board before he could kill me. Nice guy we joked about it a little bit bought him a soda.
-2 thoughtseize -2 BBE +1 Bontu's Last Reckoning +1 Anger of the Gods +1 Rakdos Charm +1 Abrade
UR BLue Moon 2-0
Young Pyromancer/Blood Moon build was interesting, but a turn 1 discard taking his hand to reveal what he had quickly turned the game for me. Fetched a basic Swamp luckily on turn 1 since i had a stomping ground in hand took his young pyro. killed his first blood moon on turn 3 with my astro after that took him out with BBE and goyf beats.
-1 Pulse -1 Thoughtseize +2 Collective Brutality.
Jund Mirror 2-0
Was excited for the mirror i love mirror matches and control mirrors always makes the game super fun. The guy was bad at fetching and needlessly lost life. His turn 1 was fetch/shock/seize took my LotV. I played a Raging Ravine and passed and he fetch shocked into a bob at this point he was at 12 life. I untapped a bolted his bob and played a fetch and passed. The game went long until we started top decking with no board presence. I got a rabble off the top and he never got the removal for it.
-3 Thoughtseize -2 Inquisition of Kozilek +2 Fulminator Mage +1 Bontu's Last Reckoning +1 Nihil Spellbomb
Game 2 he proceeded to fetch badly again and all i got was removal the whole game for his creatures and pw's. I actually managed to beat him via bolt and k-command burn.
UW Control 2-1
Game 2 i never saw a single piece of hand disruption and he closed out the game with a uncontested amount of counters. Honestly was just a long drawn out series of game's can't really remember since i didn't take notes.
Burn 2-1
Lost game 1 due to my thoughtseize off a fetch and shock. Judge was called game 3 due to double eidolon triggers when he tried to kill me when i was at 1 life and he was at 3.
-3 Thoughtseize +2 Collective Brutality +1 Duress
Living End 0-2
Had no chance the guy apparently mainboarded 4 Leyline of Sanctity and got them both turn 0 in games 1 and 2.
Anyone know Good sideboard Cards again soulsisters? IM Having trouble against soulsisters in my local meta
Sulfur Elemental Kills most of soul sisters board, lingering souls, some D&T creatures and various white weenies with a toughness of one. Good against a few decks tho does add power to white as well by being a +1/-1. Advances your game plan by being on a 3/2 body has both flash and split second making it a bit easier to work with in case you need to keep removal up. With LotlH and K-command you can recover it from the gy a few times.
Night of Souls' Betrayal -1/-1 to all creatures including your own. Kills your bob's and goyfs if they have a RIP out. Good card and sometimes hard to remove.
It's unfortunate to hear but that honesty is valuable. Hype can often be a negative thing.
I thought of Fatal Push as a tool for Jund but I didn't think about that it is also pretty good against Jund. Jund certainly often enables Revolt for the opponent.
Can you also clarify what you mean with how BBE destroyed the standard for a good Jund build? You mean in the sense of upping the mana curve?
Before Probe was unbanned, we had a pretty good set of rules everybody followed and understood. We always ran 24 lands, maximum 3 manlands, and 1-2 four drops to go with it as topenders. And this rules ensured a consistant positive performance for the deck.
With BBE being unbanned, obviously people started to jam the card as a 4 of. And rightfully so, this would mean adding another land is a nobrainer. Coming from 1-2 max four drops, you actually need a 25 land if you now have suddenly 4 four drops in your deck. In order to prevent flooding, that 25th land naturally was a 4th manland. All up to this point makese sense. However, people are naturally very greedy in deckbuilding (according to my epxerience) and people really like to skimp on lands since people always hate flooding more than screwing. So people decided to cut a land again here and there, and the problem was, they did not cut the 4th manland which was added, and just kept the 4 manlands. They just cut something else, because manlands are great right? Now, bad performance should now punish you, but the problem is, many people did this, and due to variance even with a greedy manabase you can of course win tournaments and perform well. This is simple statistics. And when those greedy lists started to pop up, people felt confirmed in their deckbuilding of course. Results say everything as we know (sarcasm). And when many people do similar things, it slowly starts to become the norm. In the past, it was never even possible to post a list with 4 four drops and only 24 lands to this forum and not get criticized about the manabase. Now its just normal. The interesting part about this is, modern as a format was way less punishing in the past. Nowadays though decks are more linear, more consistant and more punishing overall. But people still have more greedy manabases. So I guess you get the point, its completely twisted.
So up to this point, we need more definition about greedyness. Therefore I am spending a lot of time on this topic, and my goal is to bring people back on track. Thats why I write articles, address problems with manabases and the mana curve mainly. Its just the funamental part of each deck and when other decks are so consistant, we need to keep with that in order to perform well. Thats my opinion on that.
Honestly i've been debating on going to 2 BBE mb as im currently on 3 for the past few month's after dropping from 4 after a few personal conflicts. The card's amazing, but it has it's issues one of which is the mana count issue. I'm starting to debate a lot if i would rather have this or huntmaster again. There have been quite a few games that i would of won with either, but some only with huntmaster and some only with BBE.
Before i say anything mind if i ask your reasoning on well truthfully almost every card? Some of the cards you picked have direct upgrades and some are just odd all together. Currently it looks like your trying to build a Mystical Teachings or Gifts Ungiven without adding the actual card in. Currently 10 of the 25 lands either come in tapped or produce colorless making early turn problematic. Is the landbase for budget reasons? I would recommend adding in Opt and Supreme Will as it currently stands just for better selection.
I hadn't thought about teachings. What cards have direct upgrades that are instant? The manabase is based off of a UWR build I've been playing for about the past month (6 fetch, 5 basic, 4 shock, 2 other fetch targets, 3 creature lands, 2 field of ruin, 1 filter, 1 temple, 1 lighthouse). That manabase has been working very well, except that I've noticed the 4th shock has been causing more problems than it solves, so I switched that here. I've been finding that after around turn 5, it's really nice to be able to fetch into an untapped land, and sometimes you need the color the fetch doesn't provide so there's options for that.
I could see a Supreme Will over the Soul Manipulation (probably another over the Ravings as well). I'm pretty sure though that Opt is not what I'm looking for. Opt always feels really like a do nothing card though. Maybe I should include some just for better consistency, but then I need to go about finding a few cuts. The choices probably do look a bit odd, but they're all making sense to me right now. But, if I'm way off I would like to know why as I've never tried building a pure draw/go style build with Grixis before.
Many of the choices are because in moving from white to black, you lose a lot of the lifegain that keeps you in the game against aggressive decks. Black is short on decent lifegain, and even more short on it at instant. So the ones that are included all have additional utility. Suffer the Past helps your clock and is MB GY hate, Pharika's Cure takes out a creature (this is my least favorite of the bunch), and Vraska's Contempt can kill a PW at EoT.
If you want to know any inparticular just ask. What I was hoping for, was something that has a clock that's more along the lines of a slower midrange deck, rather than going 20 turns deep like hard control. Something that can apply some pressure over a couple turns. In general though, as you can see from the lack of 4 of's I was hoping to diversify answers and play lots of similar cards to hedge against a diverse meta.
Devour flesh is better then Tribute to Hunger as for the others i had them in my mind and now im stumped sorry lmao. I would agree Grixis is pretty bad at gaining life, but the main reason in playing grixis is mostly to deal with creatures effectively by using things like Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Terminate. So with lowering things like Lightning bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command your effectively handicapping your deck. The biggest issue with trying to play something similar to jeskai flash is we don't have the efficient flash creatures in the deck after Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique.
Personally i like Opt since i have been experimenting with grixis pyromancer list. Since You don't want to use Some of the more common card's since you wish to try for a instant speed only deck you have to try and lessen the singleton's and grab the best cards you can along your curve. Vraska's Contempt you should either replace it with a Terminate or a Hero's Downfall
My view is you want something like a Grixis Delverless Deck with a core somewhat like this
Mostly i feel like you need a good amount of card draw, removal, and recursion for when your creatures get killed since there all x/1's. The creeping tar pit i like mostly since it's unblockable. Of course this is just my view on how i would start it out.
Before i say anything mind if i ask your reasoning on well truthfully almost every card? Some of the cards you picked have direct upgrades and some are just odd all together. Currently it looks like your trying to build a Mystical Teachings or Gifts Ungiven without adding the actual card in. Currently 10 of the 25 lands either come in tapped or produce colorless making early turn problematic. Is the landbase for budget reasons? I would recommend adding in Opt and Supreme Will as it currently stands just for better selection.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
I think, if you wait for that, you will most likely be already dead at that point. What are the odds of finding the second Surgical before the Living End player going off? Not very good in comparison in my mind.
I like to doesn't always happen. I just get lucky with surgical extraction in jund.
Here's my current Kiki-Chord list. I'm not sure about Saheeli, I've only played her in 1 weekly event so far and was less then impressed.
If your gonna use Saheeli why not add a sington felidar guardian? That way you can combo out 2 ways in case of something like a pithing needle? Man your BoP makes me depressed that they never reprinted that art.
For that meta there are actually only 7 decks where I would side in Surgical against (2 Tron, 1 Valakut, 2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). And against 4 of those, Surgical is only okay and not great (2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). I would cut them completely and play another Spellbomb and a Cage, which would help better for all matchups except for those 3 Big Mana decks (except Cage against Living End of course, but Cage is also applicable against Elves and good against Counters Company).
As a more general aspect, I would not play both Huntmaster and Hazoret. You have a high amount of aggro decks where those cards arent that good against. I would cut the Hazoret and play a Finks or Liliana, the Last Hope.
Also I would always bring 1 Grudge, which also helps against Tron.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
@SiegeDino: I will probably try a 2-2 split of Damping Sphere/Fulminator. I'm honestly curious to see it's effect's on snapcaster decks as a whole (not grixis) as i get the feeling people will be SBing them in against UR/x and ramp decks a lot. I just see this will be one of those cards that follows the Surgical Extraction, Lost Legacy, Slaughter Games route.
Thanks for the responses, guys. I had just started getting comfortable and decently proficient (very proficient for me!) when I put LE down, so I’m excited to start running it again. I think this is where I would like to start, moving forward:
As far as the SB goes, I’m kind of perplexed. Is everyone really condoning Leyline right now? I just recently acquired 4x of them for the Bogles deck I just put together. I wanted a deck I could pilot if I was whisky-drunk on a Friday night. You put the things on your dudes and turn them sideways, unless you have a Coronet and then you don’t have to turn them sideways. All half-joking aside, four slots is quite the commitment for a SB card. Let me take a crack at a SB with Leyline and maybe y’all could help me with it:
Whadaya think? Any advice is greatly appreciated, as always. I’m pretty stoked about running LE again.
Swear i see you everywhere now that i jumped ship off the UR/x bandwagon to come back to jund decks.
I'm personally not a big fan of leylines as people have no way to hard cast them usually in most decks. I would prefer to honestly run some anti burn tech and a few other cards for other match up's.
GB/X is still a incredibly powerful archetype. The only problem is that right now it's no longer top dog and has a high chance of never being the best of the best again for a long time. After all my years of playing modern I can say it's all about trends. Your either in or your out. Right now GB/X is not popular so it's not being played nearly as often as it used to be by people. Does that in any way mean it's less powerful? No just underrepresented currently. A good amount of people that play GB/X in general from my personal experience have typically higher skill sets and knowledge about modern in general so these 50/50 decks are usually able to carry them further then other decks. This does not mean all players who use GB/X are elitist it means they either like the archetype or are very spiky. No matter what GB/X will always lurk in modern being able to prey on decks. WotC always eventually prints a new thing for the GB/X archetype that boost its power level back up.
Dude every time i see you i'm starting to debate if your a lucky charm or a black cat. Usually you say something along the lines of "jund is bad switch to X Deck instead" shortly after jund rises up. Weird facts aside i do agree with some of what you said and nice seeing you again.
I agree and i'll probably be dropping the rabble despite it giving me the win today im actually quite happy with 23 lands though so i might test it a bit longer to see if it can continue to put up results. Also a mountain in my opening hand was a new source of feel bad.
Honestly my sb was unchanged from my lgs meta so take it with a grain of salt. My friend basically picked me up and said "lets go" very last min so i didn't have time to change it. I got lucky with the match ups till the end. Most of which i tend to play against. if the jund guy actually fetched better without wasting his life total for no reason i believe it would of been more 60/40 in his favor as i didn't think anyone would be playing jund for a while. Sulfur Elemental was just a random card i mentioned the other day was good against a few x/1 white decks so i threw it in to mess with a few decks at my lgs.
Not sure honestly i should of asked him, but didn't.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Goblin RabbleMaster
2 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instant & Sorceries (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Abrade
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damping Sphere
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Sulfur Elemental
Classic Affinity 2-0
Pretty straight he dropped his hand by turn 2 and both games i top decked a anger of the gods to wipe his board before he could kill me. Nice guy we joked about it a little bit bought him a soda.
-2 thoughtseize -2 BBE +1 Bontu's Last Reckoning +1 Anger of the Gods +1 Rakdos Charm +1 Abrade
UR BLue Moon 2-0
Young Pyromancer/Blood Moon build was interesting, but a turn 1 discard taking his hand to reveal what he had quickly turned the game for me. Fetched a basic Swamp luckily on turn 1 since i had a stomping ground in hand took his young pyro. killed his first blood moon on turn 3 with my astro after that took him out with BBE and goyf beats.
-1 Pulse -1 Thoughtseize +2 Collective Brutality.
Jund Mirror 2-0
Was excited for the mirror i love mirror matches and control mirrors always makes the game super fun. The guy was bad at fetching and needlessly lost life. His turn 1 was fetch/shock/seize took my LotV. I played a Raging Ravine and passed and he fetch shocked into a bob at this point he was at 12 life. I untapped a bolted his bob and played a fetch and passed. The game went long until we started top decking with no board presence. I got a rabble off the top and he never got the removal for it.
-3 Thoughtseize -2 Inquisition of Kozilek +2 Fulminator Mage +1 Bontu's Last Reckoning +1 Nihil Spellbomb
Game 2 he proceeded to fetch badly again and all i got was removal the whole game for his creatures and pw's. I actually managed to beat him via bolt and k-command burn.
UW Control 2-1
Game 2 i never saw a single piece of hand disruption and he closed out the game with a uncontested amount of counters. Honestly was just a long drawn out series of game's can't really remember since i didn't take notes.
Burn 2-1
Lost game 1 due to my thoughtseize off a fetch and shock. Judge was called game 3 due to double eidolon triggers when he tried to kill me when i was at 1 life and he was at 3.
-3 Thoughtseize +2 Collective Brutality +1 Duress
Living End 0-2
Had no chance the guy apparently mainboarded 4 Leyline of Sanctity and got them both turn 0 in games 1 and 2.
Sulfur Elemental Kills most of soul sisters board, lingering souls, some D&T creatures and various white weenies with a toughness of one. Good against a few decks tho does add power to white as well by being a +1/-1. Advances your game plan by being on a 3/2 body has both flash and split second making it a bit easier to work with in case you need to keep removal up. With LotlH and K-command you can recover it from the gy a few times.
Night of Souls' Betrayal -1/-1 to all creatures including your own. Kills your bob's and goyfs if they have a RIP out. Good card and sometimes hard to remove.
Honestly i've been debating on going to 2 BBE mb as im currently on 3 for the past few month's after dropping from 4 after a few personal conflicts. The card's amazing, but it has it's issues one of which is the mana count issue. I'm starting to debate a lot if i would rather have this or huntmaster again. There have been quite a few games that i would of won with either, but some only with huntmaster and some only with BBE.
Devour flesh is better then Tribute to Hunger as for the others i had them in my mind and now im stumped sorry lmao. I would agree Grixis is pretty bad at gaining life, but the main reason in playing grixis is mostly to deal with creatures effectively by using things like Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Terminate. So with lowering things like Lightning bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command your effectively handicapping your deck. The biggest issue with trying to play something similar to jeskai flash is we don't have the efficient flash creatures in the deck after Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique.
Personally i like Opt since i have been experimenting with grixis pyromancer list. Since You don't want to use Some of the more common card's since you wish to try for a instant speed only deck you have to try and lessen the singleton's and grab the best cards you can along your curve. Vraska's Contempt you should either replace it with a Terminate or a Hero's Downfall
My view is you want something like a Grixis Delverless Deck with a core somewhat like this
4 Opt
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Supreme Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Nimble Obstructionist
Land
4 Polluted Delta
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
Mostly i feel like you need a good amount of card draw, removal, and recursion for when your creatures get killed since there all x/1's. The creeping tar pit i like mostly since it's unblockable. Of course this is just my view on how i would start it out.
Before i say anything mind if i ask your reasoning on well truthfully almost every card? Some of the cards you picked have direct upgrades and some are just odd all together. Currently it looks like your trying to build a Mystical Teachings or Gifts Ungiven without adding the actual card in. Currently 10 of the 25 lands either come in tapped or produce colorless making early turn problematic. Is the landbase for budget reasons? I would recommend adding in Opt and Supreme Will as it currently stands just for better selection.
I like to doesn't always happen. I just get lucky with surgical extraction in jund.
If your gonna use Saheeli why not add a sington felidar guardian? That way you can combo out 2 ways in case of something like a pithing needle? Man your BoP makes me depressed that they never reprinted that art.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
@SiegeDino: I will probably try a 2-2 split of Damping Sphere/Fulminator. I'm honestly curious to see it's effect's on snapcaster decks as a whole (not grixis) as i get the feeling people will be SBing them in against UR/x and ramp decks a lot. I just see this will be one of those cards that follows the Surgical Extraction, Lost Legacy, Slaughter Games route.
Swear i see you everywhere now that i jumped ship off the UR/x bandwagon to come back to jund decks.
I'm personally not a big fan of leylines as people have no way to hard cast them usually in most decks. I would prefer to honestly run some anti burn tech and a few other cards for other match up's.