It's true that Kite isn't good from a mana efficiency standpoint. It's solid from a grindy card advantage standpoint. One of the things that I'm doing in this deck is running a ton of must-kill artifact targets, which tends to tax opposing artifact removal pretty hard. Having a relatively unassuming card that picks up an additional card a turn is solid. I'm not a big fan of it in the early game when I'd rather be developing my board, though I'm obviously still going to make use of it when I'm otherwise not hitting land drops and don't have better plays. It does great things in the late game. It's reliable Valakut triggers, reliable Jaya fuel, and continued land drops to build towards an inevitable kill through an
Armillary Sphere is one of my favorite early cards and is rarely dead, but it's not good for grindy advantage. This deck wants both grindy card advantage engines (Thawing Glaciers, Staff of Nin, Coercive Portal, etc) and burst card advantage (Wheels, Sphere, Commune With Lava). Mono-R has gotten a lot of good card advantage in recent history, but it still takes some work to keep up with other colors. Compared to the other grindy advantage engines you mentioned, I also run Mind's Eye and Staff of Nin, don't feel that I have enough colorless production to reliably activate Endbringer more than once a turn cycle (may still be worthwhile, especially with the other abilities), and don't like that Outpost Siege can't fuel Jaya.
Burnished Hart is kind of awkward early game. It's not a guarantee that it's not going to eat removal before you can crack it if you don't play it as a 6-drop, especially because it comes down around the same time that wraths come online. It also eats two turns early and you generally don't want to play it out without planning on cracking it quickly. Kite can come down on T2 and sit, because artifacts are a little less likely to end up as collateral damage than creatures. Wild-Field Scarecrow is somewhere between the two and serves as a decent blocker and I do like the card. I haven't made the jump to it yet because it's not quite as effective as Sphere early and a touch more than I want to spend dropping and cracking in a turn late.
I don't think Kite is an auto-include or even a long term safe slot, but it does fill several roles in the deck and does so at a cost that works well with other things I want to be doing. It's been working well enough that I'm happy to keep running it for the time being.
On a different card advantage note, Vance's Blasting Cannons/Spitfire Bastion looks like a solid new option for Jaya and mono-R in general. Flipping into a bolt land makes up for the downsides of the front side. I'll have to pay attention to how often I'll be able to flip that and when the next time I play.
spell or other large threat. It's helpful for mana efficiency in the very late game, where you may end up with 3 free mana after doing whatever else you wanted to do or need something to spend mana on if you kept Jaya up without activating for a turn cycle.- Myrmadillo
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Weebo posted a message on [[Primer]] Mono-R Control with Jaya Ballard!Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists -
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lyonhaert posted a message on Zada - Grinding Up An Arcane StormBe aware that Twinflame will not work if Zada is stolen, but Heat Shimmer can give you a temporary copy of her you might be able to combo off with. Both of those work for Lignify/Darksteel Mutation.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Neither will work for Song of the Dryads or Imprisoned in the Moon. Another solution specific to those two: Zuran Orb (similar price to Young Pyromancer).
And a solution that can work for all of them: Greater Gargadon. But definitely a few bucks for that one, so not extreme budget. -
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DementedKirby posted a message on Zada - Grinding Up An Arcane Storm@MyrmadilloPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I have the same issues. Since you want to keep it so hyper budget, your options are very limited. If these situations are commonplace, then you may end up adding in Despotic Scepter and Mirrorwing Dragon. Keep in mind that they will probably swap out key cards to do so. Since these are used for when Zada gets inhibited, it'll be difficult to draw into them if you haven't been drawing through a lot of your deck. What about adding wheels to the deck as well? If you played cards that are a bit more expensive like Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery, then wheeling could potentially also be a good thing since you could then cast those spells in your graveyard after you've been digging for your responses (Mirrorwing Dragon and/or Despotic Scepter).
What I do to combat those effects is copy spells (Twinflame, Kindred Charge, and Heat Shimmer. If I draw into one or have one in hand, I just copy the enchanted Zada and keep the token. The token doesn't copy the aura effects. Another thing, as lyonhaert mentioned is to kill Zada before the aura gets attached (Siege-Gang Commander, Skirk Prospector,and Spikeshot Elder). I can also just use Chaos Warp on the already enchanted Zada in order to "shuffle it into deck" which is just sending it into the command zone instead. All these suggestions I made are cards I already run in the deck. They're useful on their own and they have their own purpose.
If Zada gets stolen, I only have one option: Chaos Warp. I would run Homeward Path since it would be only the third land that produces .. in the deck (the other two being Reliquary Tower and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx). My meta isn't too keen on stealing creatures or permanents so that's one thing. Also, when I've played online in Cockatrice I haven't had Zada stolen that often either. People usually steal commanders to prevent you from using them more than to use it themselves. Zada's pretty useless unless you build your deck around it. People would rather steal worse threats. That being said, stealing Zada ruins our deck so if you're too ahead, people may steal it if they can just to get us out of the game. Homeward Path isn't that expensive now that it's been reprinted twice (the C16 version is at around $3). So I may consider it.
In summary, try to add things to the deck that are beneficial on their own in order to deal with Zada getting aura'ed out of the game. Zada getting aura'ed out of the game is annoying but I can deal with it somewhat efficiently. Things that are within your strict budget constrictions are difficult to conjure and you may sacrifice cards just to have them in the deck, but for the moment, it would appear that Mirrorwing Dragon is your safest bet. Unless that gets stolen or aura'ed out, as well. -
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lyonhaert posted a message on Zada - Grinding Up An Arcane StormHaving sac outlets are a good way to respond while those are on the stack. And as far as costs, you can't get much better than Claws of Gix or High Market. P&K can only help you with Darksteel Mutation once it has settled. Your other cheap sacs: Skirk Prospector, Goblin Chirurgeon. The decklist linked in your signature shows those plus Spawning Pit. I used to run Traitorous Blood as a steal/untap/hast/trample effect, so a spell like that might be necessary. There's also Lightning Greaves. Or maybe switch up to one that builds up a bit more slowly and don't cast her until you can try to go off or at least get cards. Mages' Contest is probably out of the question.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Or maybe the solution isn't in the cards.
Is your playgroup trying to tell you something? The message could even be something along the lines of showing you how fragile it is in a, "why are you playing this silly thing," sort of way.Zada has a big target on her head. I don't mind it when she gets killed, but it seems like every time I play she's either stolen or gets Imprisoned in the Moon. Without her, the deck is extraordinarily weak and not much fun to play. As such, I'm trying to figure out what kind of outs are available.
I had a game a long while back where Zada was removed various ways (none of them auras) 3 times. I wasn't hitting much acceleration and it was going to take 9R to cast her again. I recognized I was probably going to just be drawing a card per turn and playing land and making a couple tokens occasionally to add to my small handful because I was already running out of life. So I scooped. I had no fight left then.
How often do you have a go with Zada? Is it every time the group gets together? At least once a week? Once a month? How does the group behave in relation to other combo decks? -
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Weebo posted a message on [[Primer]] Mono-R Control with Jaya Ballard!Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Sure, should be super quick.Quote from Astro_Man »Also I don't know if you were planning on doing a C17 review, but how do you feel about Hammer of Nazahn? It works well with Godo, Bandit Warlord and the other equipment you are running. And while it isn't indestructible itself, it provides another way for Jaya or any other key creatures to survive an inferno. The other nice thing about it is we can go turn three Jaya turn four Hammer to insta equip and make Jaya indestructible
Red
Bloodsworn Steward - Haste is good, general buff is too small for Jaya to survive Inferno, creature dies to almost everything and costs more than Jaya. Not the best haste source for a controlling Jaya list.
Curse of Opulence - Small incentive to attack someone else and you get something from it, despite being unlikely to trigger it often yourself. It's not enough incentive to reliably deter attacks and no self triggers mean it's still not good enough.
Disrupt Decorum - Fun fact: the flavor text on this was written by a local judge. Decent as a pseudo-fog effect but controlling decks can't take full advantage of tapping down non-vigilant blockers. I'd rather have a wrath effect most of the time, and there's at least Chain Reaction at the same cost that I'm not already running.
Izzet Chemister - Fun card. I'm light enough on instants and sorceries that this is unlikely to cast more than 1-2, which makes it a third choice behind Past in Flames and Recoup. Body is too fragile to try and use it as a larger value engine.
Other four red cards - Really don't fit the deck at all.
Artifacts/Land
Bloodforged Battle-Axe - Fun card, but much better in a more aggressive deck or one that can take advantage of the artifact tokens. This one doesn't have enough evasion or defense to stack these particularly well.
Hammer of Nazahn - Probably the best card in the set for this deck. I value this lower than Darksteel Plate for sure, given that the indestructibility is the important part. I'd also put this below Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of War and Peace because my primary use for this kind of equipment is protecting Jaya from herself. The other upsides on those are worth the extra 1 mana to play and equip in my eyes. That said, it's definitely a defensible choice if you want to dodge opponents' removal better and it's significantly cheaper ($$$) than either Sword. I have no plans for it here but it can certainly have a place in the deck.
Three tribal artifacts - No thanks.
Path of Ancestry - Passable for the scry 1 on casting Jaya and taps for red, plus occasional other scry 1. It's not good enough to replace a mountain for me and I like my existing utility land configuration right now, so I'm skipping this. Not a terrible choice for anyone running more humans or who just wants a little more filtering.
As expected from the tribal set, I'm not getting a ton here. There are some cards that could definitely fit the deck. My problem is that each of those cards has to come with an associated cut and that's difficult after years of tuning and tweaking.
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Weebo posted a message on [[Primer]] Mono-R Control with Jaya Ballard!Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I'm torn on that one. One of the strengths of Kite is "endless" discard fodder for Jaya late in the game. The fact that it's a forced flip at the point where I'm likely able to activate Inferno hurts it a lot for me. I don't think I want two of that effect but it's possible it could replace Armillary Sphere, at least for a test.Quote from Mercury01 »I think Thaumatic Compass/Spires of Orazca might actually replace Journeyer's Kite for me.
The spoiler currently causing me some mental distress is Conqueror's Galleon/Conqueror's Foothold. The land side does everything I want in a card for this deck but there's realistically no way I can reliably crew 4 with only 7 cards in the deck that hit that threshold on their own, 1 one them conditional. It doesn't help that Hoarding Dragon is one of the weakest slots in the list as it stands and a potential cut for anything new, either.
I'm procrastinating a little bit and it's been requested, so I'm going to finish out my HOU review. The first part, written during spoilers, is here. I'm just going to run through the stuff I didn't hit on there.
Red
Hazoret's Undying Fury - Fun card, but most of my high impact stuff is greater than CMC 5, manabase has some high impact stuff in it, and the no untap clause for lands hurts it a lot. Not the deck for it.
Hour of Devastation - Potentially worth playing in walker- or indestructible-heavy metas to help with the stuff Jaya misses. Less valuable for Jaya decks in general because it has basically the same effect as the general otherwise. Not particularly tempting, but a good card to keep in mind for some metas.
Imminent Doom - I like it a lot in theory. It's going to be best in decks with lots of inexpensive spells (getting the first trigger or two is tough for some EDH decks) and flexible CMCs. Too much reworking or curve for too little reward here, and probably too much work for too little payoff in EDH in general most of the time.
Wildfire Eternal - I'm not instant and sorcery heavy enough to make this worth it, and I don't think I pressure life totals enough early to make the afflict trigger an effective deterrent to blocking. Another fun card for a different deck.
Artifacts/Lands
Artifacts were all covered earlier. Nothing else was spoiled that I think is a serious consideration.
Endless Sands - There are some cute plays where you can use this to double up an ETB or save a creature from Inferno. There are already enough great options for nonbasic lands, particularly colorless ones, that this is a tough sell unless you include a desert package.
Ramunap Ruins - Not a terrible card for some lategame reach. This is one of a couple payoff cards for the aforementioned desert package, along with Scavenger Grounds. I'd probably still skip it unless you're running several other deserts alongside but that's more on the strength of other available nonbasics.
Overall, Mirage Mirror and Scavenger Grounds remain the best cards to come out of this set for Jaya, particularly Scavenger Grounds. I still haven't even tested those at this point thanks to a mix of other new decks, limited play time, and not having easy cuts in the 99. -
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lyonhaert posted a message on Zada - Grinding Up An Arcane StormIf you really need mana on turn 4, Geosurge could work for getting some creatures in play. Geosurge -> Zada -> Priest of Urabrask and you have RRR left you can spend on anything.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Seething Song would be alright, but Infernal Plunge would be sacrificing a valuable resource at the time every creature and R is important when trying to go off. It's risky, but the whole deck is a glass cannon anyway. -
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DementedKirby posted a message on Zada - Grinding Up An Arcane StormLol, it's funny you should ask for advice on the matter being as I run none of those cards that you mentioned . Well, I run Treasonous Ogre and it's been great for me, at least.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
As you mentioned, those cards are quite subpar considering that you could do so much better.- Descent of the Dragons and/or Hellion Eruption: These cards don't technically provide you with additional creatures; they substitute your creatures. So unless Purphoros, God of the Forge is a major wincon for the deck, those spells aren't really pulling their weight. Especially when compared to cards like Spawning Breath and Make Mischief, cards that are cheaper and actually raise your creature count - potentially double them, in fact (if the toughness of your creatures are greater than 1).
- Thermopod: Not really a bad card however it is subpar in this deck that aims to be as efficient as possible. You'd need to sacrifice 5 creatures to recover the mana, which means 5 less creatures to take advantage of Zada's ability. This card should definitely be scrapped especially when Skirk Prospector is so superior to it.
- Dragonrage: I don't like it since I can only use it during combat. Apart from the fact that you get R for each attacker, you're only able to take advantage of instants. Having said that, it's not a bad card; there are simply better cards out there.
- Geosurge: Read it carefully. You can only use it to cast artifacts and creatures with it.
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yujipooji posted a message on Kari Zev, Skyship Raider [AiR]Posted in: 1 vs 1 CommanderQuote from Myrmadillo »Thanks for the response!
Out of curiosity: If life totals started at 30, how would that impact Zurgo's effectiveness? Would the increased life totals make Zo-Zu more viable?
well in theory you'd think zo-zu would be the better choice, but you'll need to get damage in as early as humanly possible, making bellstriker even more essential to the gameplan.
As for the impact, well let's put it this way. MonoR bellstriker is painfully simple, it's about counting to 20 ASAP with cheap burn and cheap creatures. Take note i said simple, not easy. There is a lot of micromanaging and math involved figuring out where to point your burn spells, or what to cast first. One simple miscalculation with the offense could actually cost you the entire game. By adding 10 life points it just destroys the math of everything, and you'll need more sustained offense to close out games. It gets harder to calculate damage output because the game is guaranteed to last longer. And with weenie hasty creatures, they are not likely to go through blocks during the midgame onwards. So punisher cards like zo-zu etc (in the 99) become more important, and more value-for-mana 4 drops like chandra, torch of defiance, even chandra, pyromaster become more viable. Overall though, the power level is definitely not tier 1 anymore at 30. -
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yujipooji posted a message on Kari Zev, Skyship Raider [AiR]Posted in: 1 vs 1 CommanderQuote from Myrmadillo »I've had the PureMTGO version of the first post ("So You Want to Play Red in Commander?") saved as a favorite since 2014, but I somehow completely missed this thread until now. I'm a mono-red player from the days of Revised and 4th Edition, but I sold my collection over a decade ago. I started up again in 2014, casually playing multiplayer EDH/Commander. I picked up Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, and Zo-Zu the Punisher as commanders, but before Zo-Zu ever hit the table I learned that punisher style decks are liable to get hated off the table, so Zo-Zu remains unplayed to this day. However, 3drinks' PureMTGO article inspired me to gradually accumulate cards for a Duel/French Commander Zo-Zu deck.
I noticed that this thread appears to have moved on from Zo-Zu to Zurgo Bellstriker. Are Zo-Zu decks still open for discussion here? (I greatly appreciate that the Zo-Zu decklist is still retained in the first post.)
Also, I'm an ultra-budget player. I never spend more than 50 cents on a single card for EDH/Commander, but I'd be interested in attempting to generate the most effective 1v1 Zo-Zu decklist possible within that constraint if those on this thread would be willing to advise me at that level. (I don't want to disrupt this thread if that would be inappropriate.)
They still are, but zurgo bellstriker at the helm as a consistent 2 power turn 1 option with zo-zu in the 99 has been established as the optimal choice in duel commander. It's also a budget build anyway. As for a zo-zu build, just get any zurgo decklist and put zo zu at the helm. If you want it on theme and make your damage output more of a punisher build, just play pyrostatic pillar, ankh of mishra spellshock, etc and you're good to go. Problem is, with a 3 drop commander, your deckbuilding options become tighter. you need to fill in that 1 drop spot with goblin guide variants like monastery swiftspear or god forbid firedrinker satyr. No consistent one drop in the command zone significantly nerfs the deck. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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I haven't picked up Act on Impulse yet. Was it underperforming for you or why did it get the axe? I've found Tower of Fortunes generally sits in my hand because I rarely have the 8 mana to dump into it, but you've got much better mana sources to power it than me.
I'll keep Aladdin in mind. I originally skipped over him in favor of Viashino Heretic. I'm feeling pretty good about Into the Core, Viashino Heretic, and Brittle Effigy right now, but we'll see how things shake out.