MTG Salvation

You can do some incredibly convoluted grindy lines with Ballista - stuff like using Mistveil Plains, an active Emeria, and Ranger in your bin to tuck it back into your library every turn, search it back up with the Ranger, and cast it for X=4...

Quote from sylvanllewelyn »

Quote from Hellgrammite »

Nobody really hyping up Urza because they want to lock in their copies at a reasonable price first?

I hate this card for a weird reason: with infinite mana, this card wins on Magic Online on the spot but not in real life.

It's the shuffle your library part, plus you can only play one land per turn. Four horseman problem basically.

No, it wins on the spot in real life as well. If you shuffle your library once and exile the top card with his ability, your deck is still randomized - a judge will let you shortcut it by going shuffle, exile until you're done, and then proceed. The same thing happens with Minds Desire in paper.

Since it's "until end of turn", not at once, the lands thing doesn't even matter, too.

If Karn is real I'm... unhappy.

He's a one card combo in big mana decks. 4 mana Karn, -2, get Mycosynth Lattice, cast it for 6. Enjoy not having lands!

Library might also go into a Dredge list - if you're using a replacement effect instead of drawing (which Dredge is), you don't have to pay any life or put cards back, you just get to do it three times.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

Quote from spawnofhastur »

I'll just keep playing Amulet Titan, I guess.

If Faithless Looting does get banned, it plants Ancient Stirrings firmly in the "best Modern card" category once again (as it was during KCI). Even if it's safe now, I don't think anything is ever fully safe.

Man I'll just keep playing with the cards that they give me - if they ever knock me out of the format I'll just play Highlander full time.

I'll just keep playing Amulet Titan, I guess.

I'm amused that Phoenix is considered unfair, while Splinter Twin - despite also winning on turn 4 and being powerful - apparently isn't.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

So, is the version with 3 Coalition Relic, 4 Selesnya Sanctuary, 2 Trinket Mage, and 4 SB Path to Exile just everyone's accepted version of Amulet Titan right now? I came back from a Invitational Cash tournament and Amulet like this top 4ed. Then I also saw the store's best Team player also on that version. What gives?

So we've talked about this a lot in the Amulet Titan discord, but the summary is basically that Relic is very good when people are trying to Blood Moon you and lets you sneak out turn 4 Titans when you wouldn't otherwise be able too, Trinket Mage can get you Amulets or Ballista or EE and is just a good multipurpose tool, and the Sanctuary and the Paths are mainly because there are a lot of creatures these days which Dismember and Abrade can't hit and Path is just the cleanest tool we have for answering them out of the board. Path can also be a little bit of Blood Moon insurance - Pathing your own dork in response to a Moon and then landing a Titan, for example.

Cabal Therapist looks delicious for my Mardu deck.

Quote from The Fluff »

What is this "anti settle" tech that Gruul has. A card in Standard that is effective against Settle the Wreckage? I'm just curious to know.

Gruul Spellbreaker, which has seen some porting into Modern.

Quote from Nyzzeh »

Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).

You have predicted and/or called for bans/nerfs on Tron cards, ETemple, Chalice, Past in Flames, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Dredge, and now Hogaak Bridge. That's one hit in Dredge, five misses (Tron cards, Temple, Chalice, PiF, Traverse), and one ommision (no KCI). If Hogaak gets banned, you'll be 2 for 7 or 2 for 8, depending on how you score. This is exactly what I was referring to when I talk about throwing darts at a board. If you throw enough, you are bound to hit and then give acclaim to predictive skills when the record clearly shows a less flattering hit rate.

Again, Hogaak may be capital B Busted. It may be bannable. But that doesn't mean we change proven ban prediction methods because the hysteria and alarm was right one time in 10+.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from isei »

Power level: Does the deck have a high win percentage? Is the card/deck significantly more powerful than anything else in the surrounding format?

Does it have a high metagame share?
Sometimes the power level of a deck is reasonable, but the deck still is played more than anything else. This was true of energy decks during Kaladesh Standard where we found the win percentage at a reasonable level, but it was played much more than anything else.

Is the deck fun to play against?
Are there enough answers to it? This was true of the last Modern banning of Krark-Clan Ironworks. This card met many of the other criteria as well, but it was also very unfun to play against and hard to interact with.

What is the community feedback?
Do players actively dislike the card/deck? Are players no longer playing the format?[/i]

I feel like I would just be banned again if I gave my honest opinions about these statements. So let's just say that I hope one day they choose to apply these views retroactively. Specifically with regards to fun to play against and are there abundant and broad answers, in addition to several pieces of targeted hate with other multiple applications.

2 weeks ago, you *****ed about MrTouzlis reducing all of your comments to thinly veiled attacks on the banning of Twin. Perhaps you had a right to be upset about that but this comment suggests they had a point. While I appreciate that your comment here is explicit about being about Twin, not every thing needs to include Twin.

I mean, you complain about people viewing you as the "unban Twin" player and people reading your comments within the context of Twin, but then you post something like this. Whether Twin was a bad ban or not is irrelevant at this point. You have made your case (as have others) but this article doesn't need to be about Twin. Our responses to it can be a legitimate discussion over what these answers mean or what we can (or can't) expect based on them for the format as a whole. Interjecting Twin has no relevance to that article, nor to any discussion that should result from it, and there is no reason to bring it up except to remind people you are still upset.

Back on topic:

I agree that isei has a point about the last two criteria being troubling as they are subjective. However, I somehow doubt they will do any knee-jerk bannings, which suggests that their point about community feedback just gives them something to focus on. And the unfun aspect is likely on top of anything else that could lead to a ban. If it is already on the line, that might be a tipping point but I doubt it would ever be the entire reason for a ban. I don't think we have seen anything banned on the basis of either of those criteria alone so, until we do, there isn't likely a huge cause for concern.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from MrTzoulis »

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from gkourou »

a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!

I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!

I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.

/s

What is your problem that you have to interject Twin into every argument? FFS, I get a bad rap all the time exactly because of people like you making comments like this.

I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.

(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.

Quote from idSurge »

Quote from MrTzoulis »

I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc.

For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.

Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?

Or are you going to pick.

UW, Dredge, Phoenix?

Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.

Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.

I spent years playing a foiled out jund deck that is mainly irrelevant now. What makes you so feel you're entitled? I'd love a drs unban or pod but it's not happening. Great arguements or not. You moved the goal line. Before it was all blue is bad, then it was gds isnt for me. Then Phoenix is too linear.

You said it yourself, you're doing 3 and 1 or 4 and 0 a lot. Its competitive enough with where you play.

As a therapist in real life, I have to say I've never seen ptsd occur from the banning of a card before.


I mean, did the twin ban fail? Yup. Does blue have a bunch of good, viable tier 1 and tier 2 decks? Yeah. You're making this hard, man.

Quote from Jonny_Tempel »

And i don't have a problem with Titan and Phoenix being around because both decks can be attacked quite well by fair decks like GDS or Golgari Rock.

Titan is a very tough matchup for the Rock, so that's simply not true.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from idSurge »

"Have you ever been fatesealed to death? Its a horrible experience."

Those where the words over and over and over, from pro's and commentators and writers. Its seriously not worth the debate. The ban list is not based on just power, or just tournament run time, but on past fears, that some people refuse to critically think about.

"I can't tap out on turn 3 because of Splinter Twin."

I thought we were talking about unfounded fears, not your favorite decks actual gameplan.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from tronix »

Quote from The Fluff »

It's just a part of the life cycle of thread. Discussions flow smoothly for days or a few weeks, then twin would be revisited one way or the other. Although I'm surprised it came back with a lot of intensity today.

in fairness it wasnt out of the blue. that whole bit in the TCC + Blake Rassmusen + Steve Sunu 'fact/fiction' interview about twin was a ****-up. the fact that it was a user/player submitted question, the way it was phrased, it being selected as something worth talking about, and the subsequent almost dismissive and unrelated response.

it just highlights how naive the community has and continues to be, and goes to show why wizards employees are often better served not saying anything at all lest it be blown out of proportion after being put under a microscope. 2 guys who likely have minimal to no say in ban/unban decisions, one of which openly said he wasnt even there when the twin ban decision was made (Steve), giving an unrelated and opinionated answer to a loaded question isnt some special insight to be used as proof/evidence of anything.

Bingo. WOTC staff parroting the same old exaggerated horror stories is fairly tilting. It means that not only do people hold these opinions at WOTC, but it's simply accepted fact in their bubble. What a shame that we, in the community, ever believed they would be capable of thinking otherwise. Time and time again, WOTC staff show their utter incompetence in grasping even the basic fundamentals of Modern. I guess I shouldn't be surprised in the least bit?

You keep harping on for the "supposed" incompetence of WotC's (and have been harping on for LITERAL YEARS) and yet, every ******* set you're being proven wrong. Especially the last 4 sets. New cards have been entering Modern and have been making an impact, a year ago 2 cards were unbanned, a month ago a problematic deck was banned.

I fail to see that "incompetence" and "failure to understand Modern". Have they said stupid things? Of course they have. If that's the only thing that, in your eyes, is worth tunnel visioning to, then we can't help you. The rest of us will enjoy the format in it's best state that it's ever been for years. We might disagree on where we want Modern to go or what we want from the format, but we're not laser focusing on a single issue that's been repeatedly shut down, both by the community and WotC themselves. Twin isn't coming back any time soon. Suck it up and deal with it.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from Sephon19 »

Anyways. It's ridiculous to have a deck exist that you cannot tap out against on turn 3 onwards. That's all it is.

At what point has that been a stated goal for the format, or ban criteria? Are we retroactively justifying bans because we don't like to play against a certain deck? And simply making things up to support an otherwise-unjust action?

If we get to just decide what should be banned because because I don't like what the deck does, should we ban Lantern, Tron, Primeval Titan, Bogles, Infect, Storm, and other obnoxious nonsense?

alright, back up.

"Are we retroactively justifying bans because we don't like to play against a certain deck? And simply making things up to support an otherwise-unjust action?"
at this point, you're not participating in this discussion in good faith. Your comment here sidelines what people are saying, in an attempt to justify your own biases (see clearly in bold, emphasis mine). If this was a college assignment, there would be a red line through this part, and a note saying "irrelevant/bias/emotional plea". Bear that in mind, because communication with your peers needs to be conducted in good faith otherwise you're just shouting insular opinions at each other without any discourse or understanding on either side.

"If we get to just decide what should be banned because because I don't like what the deck does, should we ban Lantern, Tron, Primeval Titan, Bogles, Infect, Storm, and other obnoxious nonsense?"
again, bold indicates your clear bias and lack of good faith discussion, emphasis mine. Green text indicates a fallacy. we don't get to decide anything so I don't know where you're going with that. Purple in your quote indicates another fallacy. Nothing in Modern gets banned because someone "doesn't like" it. That's not how it works, and yet you've twisted your bias into an argument where something you like was removed from Modern, which apparently must mean that someone else didn't like it. Unfortunately this isn't a zero-sum concept and it doesn't work that way.

Stop making this all into an emotional plea where you get to decide what's "obnoxious" based on your personal grievances. Modern is Modern, decks are decks and people play them and enjoy them. there aren't ethically/morally good and bad decks as you seem keen to imply, there aren't obnoxious decks and nice decks, there's just decks. It's diverse and people get to play what they want from a wide range of archetypes, the extent of which is unrivaled by any other format currently in MTG. Modern is the only place you get to legitimately play stuff like Tron, Lantern and primeval titan decks, as you listed. Modern is the home of all of these different archetypes you can't play anywhere else, where you have a chance to spike an FNM or a GP with whatever weird thing you're playing. Accept that Modern is this way, people love to play their decks, having a mix of different styles of deck is important and that you have no right to claim that people's favourite decks are "obnoxious" and move on. I'm so done with reading this garbage negativity, it's putting people down without achieving anything and it's irritating. Stow it. Enjoy the game. Or, if you can't, at least put together a coherent rationale instead of angry rants, because what you're currently saying isn't anything to do with the "state of Modern", being instead an entirely personal gripe you want to vent about.