What deck do you suggest Phyrexian Obliterator is good against?
Burn decks probably finish before you get your 4 black mana. And by that time they go upstairs.
Dredge might not care about loosing 3 permanents when you block prized amalgan. Also, all dredge late games finish you with a conflagerate off life from the loam. Creeping Chill will also drain you azt leats 6 points.
Spirits do not care. They just fly pass you.
Humans might not like him. But there is always reflector mage.
Hardened scales has sack outletrs, they never deal damage to obliterator.
Amulet Titan might actually have problems with him. Provided you get him out fast enough and they do not have 6 lands to sacrefice. (That they might have in all honesty.)
Tron does not care.
Eldrazi tron has problems with it.
Iron Works mdoes not care.
Infect bypass him.
Bridgevine might have a problem with him.
Hollow one might have a problem provided they do not have a push. But you do not wanne rely on a 4 drop vs a deck that makes 2 4/4 in turn 1.
Storm does not care.
Mardu Pyromancer has removal for him.
Jund/Rock/Abzan all can remove him.
Blue Red Ascentuion might have problems with it.
Valakut does not care.
Ponza might not like him.
@pzbw7z in what matchup do you want Phyrexian Obliterator? You might actually tro to jump through some hoops (read Dromoka's Command) if you want to run him. Just dodge blood moons.
Maybe Oath of Nissa is good card to filter cards, like a "green Ponder"
It certanly is a good card, in much the same way that ancient stirings is a good card. It also has some synergies being legendary and enchantment.
That being said the jund deck has far to many dead cards for it. All the discard and removal is bad with it and that is the core of jund. Perhaps if you reworked the deck from the ground up with mox amber, superfriends, oath of liliana and reki, historian of kamigawa you would have enough dencety to use it and also benefit from the legendary status. But the deck would not be jund. And the lack of discard means you have no good awnsers vs combo.
Sol's an amazing player, because I really can't follow that deck list. It looks like such a mess and I don't see a lot of rhyme or reason for his choices. He's definitely amazing, because it like...it's a mess.
Glad to see Reid on it. It sounds like Reid did very so so with Rock, I think he was X-3, but he also had 3 byes. Without those byes that's a solid record though.
The exact same thing basically is true for Selfeisek and his Mardu Pyro build. He created it, he plays it differently, and pretty much nobody does the same^^
On another take, I think about this time it is apropriate enough to let Rock have its own show. In this thread versions are discussed all over the place, Rock, Abzan or Abzan Traverse. I am currently writing on a standalone primer for Rock and I hope it will be available soon. Rock deserves it as much as Abzan or Jund at this point.
I think the problem is that rock and abzan sometimes are divided very thin. Like the versions reid made that has 3 lingering souls in them, some white mana, but the main plan is to discard them. Is that really an abzan deck is the main plan does not involve any white mana?
But yes, please make a new primer. Rock/Golgari has gotten enough tools now to be independent.
1: Sol Maka obviusly comes equiped to fight non-creature decks.
2 Abrupt Deckay, 3 Assassins Throphy and 1 Malestorm pulse means you are looking to kill non-creature permanents. Following up on this the deck runs 3 Ghost Quarters. Ghost quarter help vs tron (having 6 disruption pieces mainboard vs the tron lands) and it helps vs Azcanta, Gavony Township and manlands, mainly celestial colonade. It also can do some work vs Ponza as it can take enchanted lands. I think the quarters are there mainly to kill tron as that is where Field of Ruin is much worse then ghost quarter.
Not only does the deck run 4 Iquesition and 2 thoughtsieze, it also runs 2 Collective Brutalaty to continue the discard suite. This also works double duity vs fast decks as you can combine a removal and sicard spell in one. Vs Burn you will often do all 3 modes.
Only running 2 fatal pushes means Sol Maka does not think creatures are that dangerus.
Generally Liliana of the Veil is better vs non creature decks and last hope is better vs creatures. You see the continuation of focus vs non creature spells.
2: Sol runs 2 Mishraus Bauble to boost Lhurgoyf, thin his deck and turn on his lone traverse the ulvenwald.
3: Sol runs a small toolboks package. The lone traverse effectivly functions as a second copy of a lot of cards like thrun, eternal witnes, and ghost quarter. It can also find gravyeard hate in ooze, card draw in tracker or dark confidant, or beats in the form of goyf. It can also help finding silver bullits in sideboard.
4: Having hate cards maindeck frees up your sideboard. Thrun for instance. This is not unlike how Reid use Spellbomb main.
5: The small land count means he dedicate his utilaty lands to ghost quarter. Where as the usual other option is treetop village. The deck wants a lot of green, not black. A pitty quagmire and spawning pool are quite bad.
6: Sideboard.
Ghost Quarter in the sideboard. Clearly tron hate. Perhaps also vs UW control.
Dures vs controll, combo and burn.
Fulminator mage vs tron. Perhaps other decks.
Kalitas vs dredge, greavyeard decks and midrange.
Surgical Exstaction vs gravyear decks and probably tyron with all the land destruction. (9 after sideboard.)
Damnation, Liliana and slaughter pact vs creature decks. Perhaps the golgari charm as well?
So why aren't we on the risk factor train? Card seems nuts
Risk Factor has its applications - and it is indeed strong. It doesn't belong in a deck that doesn't support it and the reasons mentioned in this thread are valid.
However, I am of a mind that Liliana of the Veil is not that strong in the current meta - and its for this reason I've taken the time to re-imagine Jund in a more aggressive shell where Green and Red are primary colors with black as the tertiary or splash color, strictly for Assassin's Trophy and Kolaghan's Command.
It is definitely different in the way it is constructed and how it plays. It probably should have a thread of its own in deck creation. However, if any of you are interested in seeing just what this concept is about - I can promise you that it definitely has legs and just needs further tweaking and input from players interested in going outside of the box a bit.
I'll be creating that thread soon.
If you are walking down that path hoe about more fetches, wild nacatl and death shadows?
Piney, tracker is a grindy card. It helps vs UW. It does not help vs dredge or burn (unless you have lifegain in your deck.) It can hrlp vs tron if you disrupt them.
4 death shadow, 4 New Lasav, 4 Traverse = 12 death shadows.
Discover // Dispersal is 2 card types and great for turning on delerium or grow goyf. Any combination of Street Wraight, Bauble and Fetchland garantees delerium turn 3 and you can play a death shadow.
How does the non bob and optionally grim flayer lists feels about discovery // dispersal? It is an instant and a sorcery and it is card selection? Can aldo putvother cards in the yeard.
How is jund death shadow these days? Can I get and assessmrnt on 2 different cards:
Claim // Fame. Giving death shadows haste seem good.
Discovery // Dispersal. It is an instant and a sorcery and it can put 2 cards in the gravyears. It seems like an easy way to get delerium, and as a good late game card. But it seems like a bad turn 2 play. But with Street Wraight or Bauble + Fetchland + Discovery // Dispersial you can go T1 discard spell, T2 Discovery, T3 Traverde for Death Shadow and plau it.
In the GB version I have been thinkering with 3 or 0 BoB. The GB is very grindy. 4 tracker and 2/3 other form of card draw (Tasigur og Courser of Kruphix.) You can usually grind quite well. Random damage from BoB is quite bad, and makes burn a hard matchup. BoB and tracker pull in odd directions. One is tempo, one is long game.
4 BoB makes great sence in Jund IMHO. Bolt and K. Command gives reach. K. Command and BBE gives you card advantage and you do not have to slot tracker into the 3 drop. (Tracker is a secret 4 drop as you want to play a land right after playing it.)
I have had great suckess with 2 spellbombs maindeck. But I am a great fan of Grim Flayer in the GB version. But having 2 spellbombs is a low opertunaty cost and feels like having 17 card sideboard.
Burn decks probably finish before you get your 4 black mana. And by that time they go upstairs.
Dredge might not care about loosing 3 permanents when you block prized amalgan. Also, all dredge late games finish you with a conflagerate off life from the loam. Creeping Chill will also drain you azt leats 6 points.
Spirits do not care. They just fly pass you.
Humans might not like him. But there is always reflector mage.
Hardened scales has sack outletrs, they never deal damage to obliterator.
Amulet Titan might actually have problems with him. Provided you get him out fast enough and they do not have 6 lands to sacrefice. (That they might have in all honesty.)
Tron does not care.
Eldrazi tron has problems with it.
Iron Works mdoes not care.
Infect bypass him.
Bridgevine might have a problem with him.
Hollow one might have a problem provided they do not have a push. But you do not wanne rely on a 4 drop vs a deck that makes 2 4/4 in turn 1.
Storm does not care.
Mardu Pyromancer has removal for him.
Jund/Rock/Abzan all can remove him.
Blue Red Ascentuion might have problems with it.
Valakut does not care.
Ponza might not like him.
@pzbw7z in what matchup do you want Phyrexian Obliterator? You might actually tro to jump through some hoops (read Dromoka's Command) if you want to run him. Just dodge blood moons.
It certanly is a good card, in much the same way that ancient stirings is a good card. It also has some synergies being legendary and enchantment.
That being said the jund deck has far to many dead cards for it. All the discard and removal is bad with it and that is the core of jund. Perhaps if you reworked the deck from the ground up with mox amber, superfriends, oath of liliana and reki, historian of kamigawa you would have enough dencety to use it and also benefit from the legendary status. But the deck would not be jund. And the lack of discard means you have no good awnsers vs combo.
I think the problem is that rock and abzan sometimes are divided very thin. Like the versions reid made that has 3 lingering souls in them, some white mana, but the main plan is to discard them. Is that really an abzan deck is the main plan does not involve any white mana?
But yes, please make a new primer. Rock/Golgari has gotten enough tools now to be independent.
Sol Malka's deck.
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (10)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Fatal Push
2 Mishra's Bauble
Land (23)
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
60 Cards
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
1: Sol Maka obviusly comes equiped to fight non-creature decks.
2 Abrupt Deckay, 3 Assassins Throphy and 1 Malestorm pulse means you are looking to kill non-creature permanents. Following up on this the deck runs 3 Ghost Quarters. Ghost quarter help vs tron (having 6 disruption pieces mainboard vs the tron lands) and it helps vs Azcanta, Gavony Township and manlands, mainly celestial colonade. It also can do some work vs Ponza as it can take enchanted lands. I think the quarters are there mainly to kill tron as that is where Field of Ruin is much worse then ghost quarter.
Not only does the deck run 4 Iquesition and 2 thoughtsieze, it also runs 2 Collective Brutalaty to continue the discard suite. This also works double duity vs fast decks as you can combine a removal and sicard spell in one. Vs Burn you will often do all 3 modes.
Only running 2 fatal pushes means Sol Maka does not think creatures are that dangerus.
Generally Liliana of the Veil is better vs non creature decks and last hope is better vs creatures. You see the continuation of focus vs non creature spells.
2: Sol runs 2 Mishraus Bauble to boost Lhurgoyf, thin his deck and turn on his lone traverse the ulvenwald.
3: Sol runs a small toolboks package. The lone traverse effectivly functions as a second copy of a lot of cards like thrun, eternal witnes, and ghost quarter. It can also find gravyeard hate in ooze, card draw in tracker or dark confidant, or beats in the form of goyf. It can also help finding silver bullits in sideboard.
4: Having hate cards maindeck frees up your sideboard. Thrun for instance. This is not unlike how Reid use Spellbomb main.
5: The small land count means he dedicate his utilaty lands to ghost quarter. Where as the usual other option is treetop village. The deck wants a lot of green, not black. A pitty quagmire and spawning pool are quite bad.
6: Sideboard.
Ghost Quarter in the sideboard. Clearly tron hate. Perhaps also vs UW control.
Dures vs controll, combo and burn.
Fulminator mage vs tron. Perhaps other decks.
Kalitas vs dredge, greavyeard decks and midrange.
Surgical Exstaction vs gravyear decks and probably tyron with all the land destruction. (9 after sideboard.)
Damnation, Liliana and slaughter pact vs creature decks. Perhaps the golgari charm as well?
Liliana of the last hope vs controll?
Spellbombs vs gravyeard decks.
This Sol Malka list is interesting. It seems that he comes prepeared for the infair matchups. Only 2 fatal pushesh?
Sol Malka's deck.
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (10)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Fatal Push
2 Mishra's Bauble
Land (23)
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
60 Cards
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
Or the one who designed the rock back in 00? He was also playing rock.
If you are walking down that path hoe about more fetches, wild nacatl and death shadows?
4 death shadow, 4 New Lasav, 4 Traverse = 12 death shadows.
Discover // Dispersal is 2 card types and great for turning on delerium or grow goyf. Any combination of Street Wraight, Bauble and Fetchland garantees delerium turn 3 and you can play a death shadow.
Claim // Fame. Giving death shadows haste seem good.
Discovery // Dispersal. It is an instant and a sorcery and it can put 2 cards in the gravyears. It seems like an easy way to get delerium, and as a good late game card. But it seems like a bad turn 2 play. But with Street Wraight or Bauble + Fetchland + Discovery // Dispersial you can go T1 discard spell, T2 Discovery, T3 Traverde for Death Shadow and plau it.
4 BoB makes great sence in Jund IMHO. Bolt and K. Command gives reach. K. Command and BBE gives you card advantage and you do not have to slot tracker into the 3 drop. (Tracker is a secret 4 drop as you want to play a land right after playing it.)
I have had great suckess with 2 spellbombs maindeck. But I am a great fan of Grim Flayer in the GB version. But having 2 spellbombs is a low opertunaty cost and feels like having 17 card sideboard.
Grim flayer sounds like a hoot. I love grim flayer and courser of khrupix. That is some sick synergy very good with frenzy also probably.
Discard spells could be good with frenzy to slow the game down to a holt. And then frenzy can speed things up.
I play the golgari rock quite a bit. And all the good cards are bad vs gravyeard hate. Frenzy reduces that weaknes. Assassins throphy as well.
It seems like a good card for an agressive deck with manadorks.