All i'm saying is, Green's Sun's Zenith makes no sense. Green's Sun Zenith is what you are trying to get i think.. And what actually implies that it is Green's Zenith. Green's Sun's Zenith, grammatically makes no sense.
I'm not dissing the deck though, this deck is cool. Still messing with a list similar to Torpfs and trying to work some things out.
While it feels right, I'm definitely not saying i'm 100% correct with my configuration of Peer and Looting, but it's really not that simple at all. There are a crazy amount of variables to weigh. Like the fact that Ravings is only card advantage in 2 scenarios; when you have an active Ascension and when it's being flashbacked. The latter is basically the equivalent of paying 5 mana to net 1 card and cast Hymn to Tourach on yourself. That doesn't seem like a good deal when it's completely unnecessary.
Speaking of Ravings and "card advantage"- you don't really need card advantage with this deck. Once you have an active Ascension all your cantrips are more than enough to get the win, and if you're comboing through Electromancer, Peer does a ton of work finding your PIF/ Empty or whatever else you need to keep the combo going. There really isn't a point where you need card advantage, what you really want is to find specific cards, not just a lot of anything.
Here's the thing, there are pros and cons for each choice. Through countless games and matches with this deck, and constant experimentation and testing, i feel like Peer and Looting bring more to the table than Ravings and Scour, but that is just a feeling, and an opinion. Let's try to break down the pros and cons of each choice in an attempt to find a quantifiable way of coming to some sort of conclusion here.
Ok, now there is a few other things we can do with this. Let's look at the similarities between the 2 configurations; the pros and cons that they share.
So again, i'm not saying i'm 100% right, but i like the way that looks, and i like the way it feels. That being said, my lists could potentially be a bit biased i guess.. I guess all i can say is that it feels really damn good playing Looting and Peer, but if anything we can agree to disagree.
The old OP didn't have as much time to keep it updated, so I took over. We agreed on this via PM. You can trust me, I co-wrote the previous primer with him.
Thought Scour increases your chances of hitting an engine in exactly the same way as any cantrip increases your chances of hitting an engine. While the milling out technically does decrease the odds of you not drawing an engine, it only does so in the sense that if you were to draw your entire deck you could theoretically mill away all of your engines. On the scale of drawing 30-40 cards out of your 60 the mill does not affect your chances of drawing an engine, while it does provide a significant increase in the odds of you being able to successfully online an ascension or kill with pif.
So i guess if you mill 2 cards that aren't an engine you "thin your deck" and the percentage of drawing an engine probably does go up. That's a perspective i haven't looked at actually.. I'm still not quite convinced though. You say it sets up Ascension, which i completely agree with, but so does Faithless Looting. And Peer Through Depths can find a card you need to get Ascension turned on, so there's that too.
I still think you get more benefits from running Looting and Peer, than you do from Ravings and Scour. The argument that Looting doesn't grab an engine seems kind of weak to me as you still have a great suite of dig spells to find an engine, and Peer adds so much to the deck that i feel it's worth it to lose those few percentage points in finding an engine, because by running Peer, you gain points elsewhere.
By running Peer you find what you need more often so you can combo more consistently, and when you do combo off you fizzle less because you can find the card you need to keep going. Also, and to me this is big, Peer plays extremely well with Electromancer. How many solo 'Mancer kills are you guys getting? Because in builds without Peer it was rarely viable for me. Peer lets you Solo 'Mancer like a champ. It's so good it has me wanting a 2nd Empty the Warrens maindeck possibly.
Woah, new thread already? Is this where we should post now? I will say the "new" primer looks a bit neater, but what exactly was the point of starting a new thread?
*edit* Don't mean to sound like a jerk, sorry if i came off like it!
Mystical Teachings seems a lot better than Drift of Phantasms. It cost 1 more, but it's an instant, and can grab any part of the combo, or disruption, and it can be flashbacked with Snapcaster if for some reason you need to.
i really like the way Torpf's list is looking. The deck is starting to actually look kinda tight. I'v trying to goldfish some brews but haven't came up with anything i really really like yet. But this deck still seems like it has potential to be pretty cool!
I was having a hard time goldishing at first, then said screw it, and starting just playing some matches. At first i was getting starched, and then went to youtube and started watching some videos. Well i realized i was making a few critical errors and went back to it, and really started having some decent success. I'll admit there are a few games where it just doesn't come together, but i feel like im starting to get better at seeing the lines, and making the right plays off a Titan.
The deck is crazy fun though. I'm gonna keep trying to jam this for a while and see what happens.
As for my list, i ended up going with Stirrings for now and favor that over SSG. Being really fast is cool, but i like being able to dig 5 t1 for an Amulet or Bounce land to set up that t2 Titan/Hivemind.
Also with the lands, i decided to run both playsets of rainbow lands. I'm not sure what mana bases you guys are running, but i was having problems just not being able to cast spells for turns because everything came into play tapped, or even just being forced to mull hands with no regular lands, and just bounce lands.
I also haven't decided on if i wanna run Kabira and Khalni, or the Glimmerpost duo. What i like about Glimmerpost, is that it comes into play untapped. I really just wasn't feeling getting bogged down on tapped lands. But that being said, Khalni is sweet in some matches.. so it's really hard to choose.
I wanted to try out Kessig Wolf Run also, but i haven't got a chance yet. What's the consensus there?
Peer through depths won't find a land, goblin electromancer or PA. Having lands or combo engines is more important than sweet option to dig deep for Past in Flames or ritual.
Ok, here's the thing though. Lets take a took at what cards are in the standard list that can dig for a land, or an engine.
Here we have 19 cards to dig which is pretty good. And a combined 36 cards deep worth of digging.
So really we are only losing 4 cards deep worth of digging. Now you also have to take into account the fact that Scour mills 2 cards when you cast it, and really only just cycles itself- If you draw an engine or land off Scour, because it only cycles itself, you would have had that card in hand anyway, if you weren't playing Scour. But now, what you doing is adding a chance of milling an out. That's a chance you don't even have to take. I'm not sure on the math, but my intuition tells me Thought Scour may actually have a negative impact on finding an engine rather than helping you.
Now i fully admit Scour has benefits elsewhere, can sometimes speed up the deck, and help set up Ascension, and Past in Flames. However the point i'm trying to make is that, running Looting and Peer really doesn't have a negative impact on your ability to find an engine at all.
There is another point to consider as well, on t1 Looting digs 2 for a land or engine, while Scour cycles itself into a card you would have had anyway, and mills 2.
So what this means, is that we essentially have the same chance to find a land or engine, but i also now have the ability to find exactly what i need to set up the combo, and not fizzle.
When it comes down to it though, it's really hard to measure because there are so many variables. The search package of Ravings and Scour has completely different pros and cons than running Peer and Looting.
I very well could be wrong, but at least for now, i think my search package feels extremely tight and consistent. I feel like the benefits of Looting and Peer, outway the benefits of Scour and Ravings, and at the same time is safer, and more consistent.
So can someone help me out here? I don't know how to continue the combo with 5 mana from here:
Lands: 2 Steam Vents, 2 Islands, 1 Sulfur Falls
Hand: Pyretic Ritual, 2 Past in Flames, Channel the Suns, Echoing Truth, Lightning Bolt
Yard: Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, and 9 other cards irrelevant to the combo.
The problem here came before you even got to this state. With those cards in hand, that means you must have cast Gifts with 2 Past in Flames in hand. That's not going to win you the game. For the most part, generally speaking you need 2 different combo pieces in hand before you cast Gifts for the other 4.
But yeah, if you had a 6th land you could combo off with just PIF and Gifts, but it's not guaranteed. If they give you Increasing Vengeance and Mana Seism, you still lose.
This has got me thinking though, someone needs to go through and chart out all the possible hand configurations and what the minimum requirments are for a guaranteed win. I guess that person is going to be me..
For these, the "what the opponent will give you", is what their best choice is, not the best choice for us.
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Pyretic Ritual, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Past in Flames, Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Mana Seism, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Mana Seism Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Past in Flames, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Pyretic Ritual Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Past in Flames, Pyretic Ritual, Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Pyretic Ritual What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Revival, Ritual, Gifts
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then cast Mana Seism for - 5RRG - 1 storm
- now you can Vengeance your Channel and cast PIF - RGGUUWWB - 4 storm
- Ritual from the grave, then Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Ritual, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Ritual
To Win-
- Manamorphose into Vengeance on Channel - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- PIF into Ritual, into Seism - RRGGU6 - 6 storm
- Vengeance on Channel again - 3RRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Mana Seism Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Ritual, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Ritual, Channel
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Ritual Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns, Mana Seism What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Manamorphose, Ritual, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual, Mana Seism What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Manamorphose, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Lands in Play- 6 Lands In Grave- Gifts,
To Win-
- Manamorphose into Vengeance on Channel - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- PIF into Ritual, into Seism - RRGGU6 - 6 storm
- Vengeance on Channel again - 3RRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Ritual, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Ritual
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then cast Mana Seism for - 5RRG - 1 storm
- now you can Vengeance your Channel and cast PIF - RGGUUWWB - 4 storm
- Ritual from the grave, then Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Past in Flames, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns What the opponent will give you- Manamorphose, Past in Flames
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Ritual, Manamorphose, Past in Flames Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Revival, Ritual, Past in Flames, Mana Seism What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Ritual
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Ritual Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Mana Seism
To Win-
- Ritual then Vengeance your Channel the Suns - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- play PIF, then Ritual and Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Mana Seism, Ritual Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Channel the Suns, Manamorphose What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Mana Seism, Ritual, Past in Flames, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then play Mana Seism - RRG5 - 1 storm
- play Manamorphose into the Ritual to RRRRG4 then play Past in Flames - RRRG1 - 4 storm
- Manamorphose into the Ritual again to RRRRGG then Vengeance Channel - RRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Manamorphose Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then play Mana Seism - RRG5 - 1 storm
- Channel the Suns to RRRGUWB2 then Manamorphose - RRRGGUWB1 - 3 storm
- Past in Flames which brings you to RRGGU then Ritual - RRRGGU - 5 storm
- now you can Vengeance the Channel - RRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Mana Seism What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts In Hand- Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Lands in Play- 5 Lands In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Mana Seism
To Win-
- Ritual then Vengeance your Channel the Suns - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- play PIF, then Ritual and Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
So out of all 15 possibile configurations, only 6 of them need 6 mana to guarantee a win no matter what you get.
Past In Flames - Manamorphose
Past In Flames - Increasing Vengeance
Past in Flames - Mana Seism
Manamorphose - Channel the Suns
Manamorphose - Increasing Vengeance
Manamorphose - Mana Seism
A few of these can get wins with 5 lands, but there's a possibility for your opponent to pick the right 2 and cut you off. With 6 lands they are assured. The other 9 Configurations however, can guarantee a win on just 5 lands
These ones are interesting because they can win on 5 lands, but you wanna Gifts for Noxious Revival rather than Manamorphose with these ones.
So i'v been mostly into Legacy magic for a long time but got into Modern about a year ago. I'm a huge fan of crazy combo decks and while i knew about this decks existence and even played against it a few times, i never really gave it much of a look. Well about 2 days ago i ran into an article on this deck and finally realized how insanely cool this thing is.
I haven't actually played a match, but i'v been goldfishing like a madman and reading everything i can on the deck. I managed to find a few articles and read through the old threads on Amulet Combo.. I could see myself getting really into this deck.
I plan on goldfishing a bunch more and then just jamming it like a crazy person on cockatrice until i get comfortable with it.
Been a Legacy player mostly up until about a year ago, when i started getting into Modern as well. I'v been a huge fan of Storm in
Legacy and immediately got into Modern UR Storm as soon as i started playing Modern. My list has gone through a lot of changes since i first started playing the deck, and i have actually settled on some somewhat different choices than a lot of what i see here.
As far as Faithless looting, i'm not 100% sure it's correct, and i flop around around between Looting and Thought Scour every once in a while, but i have been leaning towards Looting for a bit now. What i like about it, is first off, it's red so you can play it without worrying about choking on blue(this also lets me get away with playing Peer), also it actually draws 2 cards, so t1 it provides another card that can actually dig for a land or engine. What i also like about it, is this deck can sometimes clump up on engine pieces, and win conditions, both before and during the combo. Looting lets you cycle those dead cards, lands, extra Past in Flames, etc, for something more useful. Obviously it's downside comes from it's lack of real card advantage and it can sometimes make mulligans annoying. So it really is a toss up, but right now at least i'm on Looting.
With Peer through Depths what i like is that it can find whatever you need. This card is so good in this deck, i'm actually surprised i don't see more people playing it. This is probably one of the most important cards in the deck for me, and what wins me the game most actually. This is what finds that Past in Flames so you can continue the combo, or that Ritual you need to start the combo, or that Grapeshot, or Empty the Warrens you need to actually finish the game. And with an Active Ascension this card is just absurd(but then again what card isn't with an active Ascension) Peer is also really good with Electromancer and makes solo Electromancer wins way easier to come by. It actually has me considering adding a second Empty the Warrens maindeck because of how easy it easy to shoot off quick Emptys with Electromancer.
Anyway the deck feels really consistent and fast, and i have been having a blast playing it.
--
As far as the Banefire idea, i'm not really sold on it. As others have said, Grapeshot and Empty are basically uncounterable anyway. And they are both easier to pull off and actually win with.
This deck looks pretty cool, but how does it combo off exactly? I see how it can make a *****load of mana, but how are you replenishing your hand, and drawing cards? Do you just tutor for Blue Sun, Sun yourself to draw cards and keep looping that until you can Blue Sun the opponent?
I'm not dissing the deck though, this deck is cool. Still messing with a list similar to Torpfs and trying to work some things out.
While it feels right, I'm definitely not saying i'm 100% correct with my configuration of Peer and Looting, but it's really not that simple at all. There are a crazy amount of variables to weigh. Like the fact that Ravings is only card advantage in 2 scenarios; when you have an active Ascension and when it's being flashbacked. The latter is basically the equivalent of paying 5 mana to net 1 card and cast Hymn to Tourach on yourself. That doesn't seem like a good deal when it's completely unnecessary.
Speaking of Ravings and "card advantage"- you don't really need card advantage with this deck. Once you have an active Ascension all your cantrips are more than enough to get the win, and if you're comboing through Electromancer, Peer does a ton of work finding your PIF/ Empty or whatever else you need to keep the combo going. There really isn't a point where you need card advantage, what you really want is to find specific cards, not just a lot of anything.
Here's the thing, there are pros and cons for each choice. Through countless games and matches with this deck, and constant experimentation and testing, i feel like Peer and Looting bring more to the table than Ravings and Scour, but that is just a feeling, and an opinion. Let's try to break down the pros and cons of each choice in an attempt to find a quantifiable way of coming to some sort of conclusion here.
Thought Scour
- Finds engine/ land
- Fills up yard/sets up Ascension
- 1 mana
- "thins" deck
-Cons-
- Only draws 1
- Can mill an out
- Blue cmc
-Pros-
Desperate Ravings
- Finds engine/ land
- Sometimes provides CA
- Red cmc
- Refills during combo
-Cons-
- Random discard
- 2 mana
- Blue flashback
_________________________-Pros-
Faithless Looting
- Finds an engine/ land
- Digs 2 on t1
- Cycles dead cards pre/during combo
- Fills up yard/ sets up Ascension
- Red cmc + Red flashback
- 1 mana
-Cons-
- Card disadvantage
Peer Through Depths
- Digs 5 deep
- Helps turn on Ascension/ set up combo turn
- Finds what you need to combo/ Makes combo fizzle less
- Plays great with Electromancer
-Cons-
- Doesn't find an engine/ land
- 2 mana
- Blue cmc
-Pros-
-Pros-
_________________________|
Ok, so now just to see what it would look like, lets take the pros and cons of each package together and list them out.
Thought Scour - Desperate Ravings
-Pros-
- Finds engine/ land - Finds engine/ land
- Fills up yard/sets up Ascension
- "thins" deck
- Sometimes provides CA
- Refills during combo
- Red cmc
- 1 mana
-Cons-
- Only draws 1
- Can mill an out
- Random discard
- Blue cmc
- 2 mana
- Blue flashback
_________________________Faithless Looting - Peer Through Depths
- Finds an engine/ land
- Digs 2 on t1
- Digs 5 deep
- Cycles dead cards pre/during combo
- Fills up yard/ sets up Ascension
- Helps turn on Ascension/ set up combo turn
- Finds what you need to combo/ Makes combo fizzle less
- Plays great with Electromancer
- Red cmc + Red flashback
- 1 mana
-Cons-
- Doesn't find an engine/ land
- Card disadvantage
- 2 mana
- Blue cmc
-Pros-
_________________________|
Ok, now there is a few other things we can do with this. Let's look at the similarities between the 2 configurations; the pros and cons that they share.
- Both -
- Finds engine/ land
- Fills up yard/sets up Ascension
- Red cmc
- 1 mana
-Cons-
- Blue cmc
- 2 mana
-Pros-
_________________________|
Now we can see what each set brings to the table individually.
Thought Scour - Desperate Ravings
-Pros-
- Finds engine/ land
- "thins" deck
- Sometimes provides CA
- Refills during combo
-Cons-
- Only draws 1
- Can mill an out
- Random discard
- Blue flashback
_________________________Faithless Looting - Peer Through Depths
- Digs 2 on t1
- Digs 5 deep
- Cycles dead cards pre/during combo
- Helps turn on Ascension/ set up combo turn
- Finds what you need to combo/ Makes combo fizzle less
- Plays great with Electromancer
- Red flashback
-Cons-
- Doesn't find an engine/ land
- Card disadvantage
-Pros-
_________________________|
So again, i'm not saying i'm 100% right, but i like the way that looks, and i like the way it feels. That being said, my lists could potentially be a bit biased i guess.. I guess all i can say is that it feels really damn good playing Looting and Peer, but if anything we can agree to disagree.
I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.
Ah i see. Well cool, thanks for the effort!
So i guess if you mill 2 cards that aren't an engine you "thin your deck" and the percentage of drawing an engine probably does go up. That's a perspective i haven't looked at actually.. I'm still not quite convinced though. You say it sets up Ascension, which i completely agree with, but so does Faithless Looting. And Peer Through Depths can find a card you need to get Ascension turned on, so there's that too.
I still think you get more benefits from running Looting and Peer, than you do from Ravings and Scour. The argument that Looting doesn't grab an engine seems kind of weak to me as you still have a great suite of dig spells to find an engine, and Peer adds so much to the deck that i feel it's worth it to lose those few percentage points in finding an engine, because by running Peer, you gain points elsewhere.
By running Peer you find what you need more often so you can combo more consistently, and when you do combo off you fizzle less because you can find the card you need to keep going. Also, and to me this is big, Peer plays extremely well with Electromancer. How many solo 'Mancer kills are you guys getting? Because in builds without Peer it was rarely viable for me. Peer lets you Solo 'Mancer like a champ. It's so good it has me wanting a 2nd Empty the Warrens maindeck possibly.
*edit* Don't mean to sound like a jerk, sorry if i came off like it!
i really like the way Torpf's list is looking. The deck is starting to actually look kinda tight. I'v trying to goldfish some brews but haven't came up with anything i really really like yet. But this deck still seems like it has potential to be pretty cool!
4 Primeval Titan
3 Hive Mind
--Combo--
4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Summer Bloom
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
--Search--
4 Serum Visions
4 Ancient Stirrings
--Pacts--
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
--Land--
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vesuva
2 Glimmerpost
3 Tolaria West
3 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Boros Garrison
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Forest
4 Seal of Primordium
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Firespout
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Khalni garden
I was having a hard time goldishing at first, then said screw it, and starting just playing some matches. At first i was getting starched, and then went to youtube and started watching some videos. Well i realized i was making a few critical errors and went back to it, and really started having some decent success. I'll admit there are a few games where it just doesn't come together, but i feel like im starting to get better at seeing the lines, and making the right plays off a Titan.
The deck is crazy fun though. I'm gonna keep trying to jam this for a while and see what happens.
As for my list, i ended up going with Stirrings for now and favor that over SSG. Being really fast is cool, but i like being able to dig 5 t1 for an Amulet or Bounce land to set up that t2 Titan/Hivemind.
Also with the lands, i decided to run both playsets of rainbow lands. I'm not sure what mana bases you guys are running, but i was having problems just not being able to cast spells for turns because everything came into play tapped, or even just being forced to mull hands with no regular lands, and just bounce lands.
I also haven't decided on if i wanna run Kabira and Khalni, or the Glimmerpost duo. What i like about Glimmerpost, is that it comes into play untapped. I really just wasn't feeling getting bogged down on tapped lands. But that being said, Khalni is sweet in some matches.. so it's really hard to choose.
I wanted to try out Kessig Wolf Run also, but i haven't got a chance yet. What's the consensus there?
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Thought Scour
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Grapeshot
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
Ok, here's the thing though. Lets take a took at what cards are in the standard list that can dig for a land, or an engine.
4 Manamorphose - 1 deep
4 Gitaxian Probe - 1 deep
4 Serum Visions - 3 deep
4 Sleight of Hand - 2 deep
4 Thought Scour - 1 deep
3 Desperate Ravings - 2 deep
we got 23 cards here, which is great. And a combined 40 cards deep worth of digging.
Here's the cards in my list that can dig for an engine, or land.
4 Manamorphose - 1 deep
4 Gitaxian Probe - 1 deep
4 Serum Visions - 3 deep
4 Sleight of Hand - 2 deep
3 Faithless Looting - 2 deep
Here we have 19 cards to dig which is pretty good. And a combined 36 cards deep worth of digging.
So really we are only losing 4 cards deep worth of digging. Now you also have to take into account the fact that Scour mills 2 cards when you cast it, and really only just cycles itself- If you draw an engine or land off Scour, because it only cycles itself, you would have had that card in hand anyway, if you weren't playing Scour. But now, what you doing is adding a chance of milling an out. That's a chance you don't even have to take. I'm not sure on the math, but my intuition tells me Thought Scour may actually have a negative impact on finding an engine rather than helping you.
Now i fully admit Scour has benefits elsewhere, can sometimes speed up the deck, and help set up Ascension, and Past in Flames. However the point i'm trying to make is that, running Looting and Peer really doesn't have a negative impact on your ability to find an engine at all.
There is another point to consider as well, on t1 Looting digs 2 for a land or engine, while Scour cycles itself into a card you would have had anyway, and mills 2.
So what this means, is that we essentially have the same chance to find a land or engine, but i also now have the ability to find exactly what i need to set up the combo, and not fizzle.
When it comes down to it though, it's really hard to measure because there are so many variables. The search package of Ravings and Scour has completely different pros and cons than running Peer and Looting.
I very well could be wrong, but at least for now, i think my search package feels extremely tight and consistent. I feel like the benefits of Looting and Peer, outway the benefits of Scour and Ravings, and at the same time is safer, and more consistent.
The problem here came before you even got to this state. With those cards in hand, that means you must have cast Gifts with 2 Past in Flames in hand. That's not going to win you the game. For the most part, generally speaking you need 2 different combo pieces in hand before you cast Gifts for the other 4.
But yeah, if you had a 6th land you could combo off with just PIF and Gifts, but it's not guaranteed. If they give you Increasing Vengeance and Mana Seism, you still lose.
This has got me thinking though, someone needs to go through and chart out all the possible hand configurations and what the minimum requirments are for a guaranteed win. I guess that person is going to be me..
For these, the "what the opponent will give you", is what their best choice is, not the best choice for us.
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Pyretic Ritual, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Past in Flames, Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Mana Seism, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Mana Seism
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Past in Flames, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Ritual, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
Before resolving Gifts
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Pyretic Ritual
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Past in Flames, Pyretic Ritual, Increasing Vengeance, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Gifts
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Pyretic Ritual
What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Revival, Ritual, Gifts
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then cast Mana Seism for - 5RRG - 1 storm
- now you can Vengeance your Channel and cast PIF - RGGUUWWB - 4 storm
- Ritual from the grave, then Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Ritual, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Manamorphose, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Ritual
To Win-
- Manamorphose into Vengeance on Channel - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- PIF into Ritual, into Seism - RRGGU6 - 6 storm
- Vengeance on Channel again - 3RRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Mana Seism
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Ritual, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Manamorphose, Mana Seism, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Ritual, Channel
To Win-
- Vengeance your Morphose - 2RRRG - 2 storm
- Mana Seism up to 7RRG and cast PIF - 4RG - 4 storm
- Ritual to 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG -7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Ritual
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns, Mana Seism
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Manamorphose, Ritual, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Manamorphose, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 6 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual, Mana Seism
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Manamorphose, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
Lands in Play- 6 Lands
In Grave- Gifts,
To Win-
- Manamorphose into Vengeance on Channel - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- PIF into Ritual, into Seism - RRGGU6 - 6 storm
- Vengeance on Channel again - 3RRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Ritual, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, Past in Flames, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Ritual
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then cast Mana Seism for - 5RRG - 1 storm
- now you can Vengeance your Channel and cast PIF - RGGUUWWB - 4 storm
- Ritual from the grave, then Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGGUUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Past in Flames, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
What the opponent will give you- Manamorphose, Past in Flames
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Ritual, Manamorphose, Past in Flames
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- Vengeance your Ritual, then Morphose into - RRRRRRG - 3 storm
- Cast PIF which bring you to RRG, then cast Mana Seism - 5G - 5 Storm
- use Manamorphose to 4RG, cast the Ritual 3RRRG, then Vengeance the Channel - RRRRWWWBBBUUUGGG - 9 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Revival, Ritual, Past in Flames, Mana Seism
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Ritual
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Ritual
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Mana Seism
To Win-
- Ritual then Vengeance your Channel the Suns - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- play PIF, then Ritual and Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Mana Seism, Ritual
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance Channel the Suns, Manamorphose
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Mana Seism, Ritual, Past in Flames, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Channel the Suns
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then play Mana Seism - RRG5 - 1 storm
- play Manamorphose into the Ritual to RRRRG4 then play Past in Flames - RRRG1 - 4 storm
- Manamorphose into the Ritual again to RRRRGG then Vengeance Channel - RRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 8 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Mana Seism, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Manamorphose, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Manamorphose
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Mana Seism, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Manamorphose
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Ritual
To Win-
- tap your lands for mana then play Mana Seism - RRG5 - 1 storm
- Channel the Suns to RRRGUWB2 then Manamorphose - RRRGGUWB1 - 3 storm
- Past in Flames which brings you to RRGGU then Ritual - RRRGGU - 5 storm
- now you can Vengeance the Channel - RRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- cast Gifts from the grave for the win
In Hand- Gifts Ungiven, Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns
Lands in Play- 5 lands
Gifts for- Noxious Revival, Increasing Vengeance, Past in Flames, Mana Seism
What the opponent will give you- Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
After resolving Gifts
In Hand- Pyretic Ritual, Channel the Suns, Past in Flames, Increasing Vengeance
Lands in Play- 5 Lands
In Grave- Gifts, Revival, Mana Seism
To Win-
- Ritual then Vengeance your Channel the Suns - RRGGUUWWBB - 3 storm
- play PIF, then Ritual and Vengeance Channel again - RRRRGGGUUUWWWBBB - 7 storm
- Cast Gifts from the grave for the win
So out of all 15 possibile configurations, only 6 of them need 6 mana to guarantee a win no matter what you get.
Past In Flames - Manamorphose
Past In Flames - Increasing Vengeance
Past in Flames - Mana Seism
Manamorphose - Channel the Suns
Manamorphose - Increasing Vengeance
Manamorphose - Mana Seism
A few of these can get wins with 5 lands, but there's a possibility for your opponent to pick the right 2 and cut you off. With 6 lands they are assured. The other 9 Configurations however, can guarantee a win on just 5 lands
These ones are interesting because they can win on 5 lands, but you wanna Gifts for Noxious Revival rather than Manamorphose with these ones.
Past in Flames - Channel the Suns
Increasing Vengeance - Channel the Suns
Increasing Vengeance - Mana Seism
Pyretic Ritual - Channel the Suns
I haven't actually played a match, but i'v been goldfishing like a madman and reading everything i can on the deck. I managed to find a few articles and read through the old threads on Amulet Combo.. I could see myself getting really into this deck.
I plan on goldfishing a bunch more and then just jamming it like a crazy person on cockatrice until i get comfortable with it.
I do have a question though, what's everyone's opinion on Simian Spirit Guide vs Ancient Stirrings?
Legacy and immediately got into Modern UR Storm as soon as i started playing Modern. My list has gone through a lot of changes since i first started playing the deck, and i have actually settled on some somewhat different choices than a lot of what i see here.
Here's what i have been playing
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Faithless Looting
3 Peer Through Depths
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Scalding tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents
2 Shivan Reef
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Defense Grid
2 Swan Song
2 Echoing Truth
2 Shatterstorm
1 Empty the Warrens
So i guess the 3 things that stick out are Faithless Looting, Peer Through Depths, and maindeck Empty the Warrens.
As far as Faithless looting, i'm not 100% sure it's correct, and i flop around around between Looting and Thought Scour every once in a while, but i have been leaning towards Looting for a bit now. What i like about it, is first off, it's red so you can play it without worrying about choking on blue(this also lets me get away with playing Peer), also it actually draws 2 cards, so t1 it provides another card that can actually dig for a land or engine. What i also like about it, is this deck can sometimes clump up on engine pieces, and win conditions, both before and during the combo. Looting lets you cycle those dead cards, lands, extra Past in Flames, etc, for something more useful. Obviously it's downside comes from it's lack of real card advantage and it can sometimes make mulligans annoying. So it really is a toss up, but right now at least i'm on Looting.
With Peer through Depths what i like is that it can find whatever you need. This card is so good in this deck, i'm actually surprised i don't see more people playing it. This is probably one of the most important cards in the deck for me, and what wins me the game most actually. This is what finds that Past in Flames so you can continue the combo, or that Ritual you need to start the combo, or that Grapeshot, or Empty the Warrens you need to actually finish the game. And with an Active Ascension this card is just absurd(but then again what card isn't with an active Ascension) Peer is also really good with Electromancer and makes solo Electromancer wins way easier to come by. It actually has me considering adding a second Empty the Warrens maindeck because of how easy it easy to shoot off quick Emptys with Electromancer.
Anyway the deck feels really consistent and fast, and i have been having a blast playing it.
--
As far as the Banefire idea, i'm not really sold on it. As others have said, Grapeshot and Empty are basically uncounterable anyway. And they are both easier to pull off and actually win with.