MTG Salvation

SFM and Preordain are asinine on the ban list, thats for sure.

Well...I'm coming at that perspective from a UWR Control perspective. The 'best' control deck from an SCG angle, at least before the last I dont know, 2 or 3 weeks as I've stopped playing and paying attention.

With Path, Bolt, Spell Snare, there is 'play' in the first few turns.
Turn 3 is hopefully a Snap/Removal or a Counter.
Turn 4 is like I said "I play my 4th land, am I dead if they untap".

Most of the time, no. The issue is though, you can keep fighting over resources, keep casting removal/counters, keep digging....for what?

So you cast the mighty, the powerful, the immensely over hyped and expensive one, JACE HIMSELF. You draw 3...and you then what? Keep casting Removal/Counters?

Thats the issue with Control.

You have cleared the board, and you drop...Nahiri...wow. Much impressed. Many Loot 1.

In Modern, there is like you say enough resilience AND explosiveness, that if you stumble on that removal/counters...you just lose.

Diversity of Other Decks - GP Top 8's POST BAN
This is a list of all deck's that have Top 8, to reflect the 'diversity' post ban. Organized on if they existed with Twin, or could make some claims to coming about after. I have bolded decks which COULD NOT HAVE EXISTED before the addition of new cards post Twin. AKA: These decks could not exist when Twin was legal.

Existed With Twin
GWx Combo (Podless Pod/Company)
Storm
Affinity
Living End
Merfolk
Jund
Junk
Tron
Grixis Control
Ad Naus
Zoo
Scapeshift
Grixis Delver
Burn
BG Rock
Grishoabrand
Valakut Breach
GW Taxes
UW Control
Infect
Dredge
UWR Midrange (Queller)
Esper Midrange
UWR Control (Gearhulk, Nahiri, Search)
Elves
Bogles
Amulet Titan

New Deck
Eldrazi Aggro
Eldrazi Bant
Bant Company (precursor to humans?
Zombie Infestation/Dredge (Rogue, 1 Event)
Skred
DS Zoo (Sam Black, first of the DS->JDS->GDS-4C DS line)
Knightfall
UWR Pyro (Rogue, 1 Event)
Lantern
Eldrazi Tron
Turns
UWR Breach (Dec, 2017)
RG Eldrazi
Humans
KCI
Hollow One

Yeah. Almost every deck which was not present in a top 8 during Twin's life, only exists on the backs of new cards.

As to the 'blue diversity' only UWR Breach, from an event in Dec, 2017, could make any claim's at not simply being a pre-existing (with Twin) deck, that was simply given new cards such as Spell Queller, Search for Azcanta, Nahiri, the Harbinger, Opt, or Torrential Gearhulk.

Every other Blue deck that has since pulled in a Top 8, also did while Twin was legal, while any 'new deck' is either a rogue deck that spiked an event, or is a new deck, that only exists on the back of new cards which either powered up, or created, a new archetype.

What else do you want me to say ktkenshinx?

I mean make it plain for me. What do you want to see? If Top 8 percentage is meaningless, how can I a solitary MTGO player, get the numbers or facts, that you would actually think are legit?

Did Top 8's become more diverse following the ban? I mean considering the number of cards added to the format? Kind of hard not dont you think? Should I exclude every deck that didnt exist before Twin was banned because the CARDS didnt exist? Is this diverse?

GP Lyon 2018 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18485&f=MO)
RG Eldrazi
Junk
Tron
Tron
Junk
UWR Control
Tron
Tron

Maybe this one?

GP Oklahoma City 2017 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17816&f=MO)
Scapeshift
Scapeshift
Tron
Dredge
UWR Breach
Living End
Tron
Tron

Here's a nice example of diversity.

GP Vegas 2017 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15927&f=MO)
Affinity
Hatebears
Affinity
Affinity
Burn
ETron
Hatebears
TURNS

GP Vancouver 2017 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14763&f=MO)
JDS
Merfolk
JDS
JDS
Abzan Company
Affinity
Burn
D&T

Another

GP Dallas 2016 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13917&f=MO)
Skred Red
Grixis Control
Infect
UWR Control
Dredge
Infect
Infect
Titanshift

As to your second point, Blue has sucked since Twin was banned SO MUCH they unbanned JACE for the love of god.

We've already covered this though ktkenshinx.

1. Will it impact diversity? Yes. It will 100% take meta share from or completely supplant Blue Moon, will hit a % of UW Control, and certainly a segment of UWR Control.

2. Did it increase diversity in blue decks? I actually think not. At least not at the GP Top 8 level. Throughout the life of Twin, since 'Modern' was the formats name (I did not go back to Extended) we had Faeries, RUG Delver, UR Storm, UW Midrange, UWR Midrange, Esper Gifts, Scapeshift, UW Control, UWR Control, UR Delver, UWR Kiki Resto, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver and Twin.

Blue Moon is the linear heir of Twin, and would be supplanted because Twin is doing Blue Moon, better.

Lets look at what Blue came after the Twin ban.

Scapeshift - Coexisted
GDS - New Tech, but just a continuation of DS evolution.
UWR - Coexisted
Merfolk - Coexisted
Grixis Control - Coexisted
Grixis Delver - Coexisted
UWR Queller - New Tech, but UWR Midrange was a thing already and coexisted
Blue Moon Decks - Simply the left overs after the ban.

I mean simply going by T8's, pre vs post ban, Blue had more diversity while Twin was alive, because Blue decks were not getting absolutely ***** on by a tide of aggro decks.

EDIT: Scapeshift...missed the F.

Quote from tronix »

every good deck is supplanting decks similar to it. regardless its pointless to go on and on about whether the ban was justified. it really doesnt matter. twin was banned under circumstances that differed significantly to previous ones. that is just a fact.

the format is completely different now, and we should be framing everything under the current state of things and stop looking at the past.

eldrazi decks, dredge, fatal push, death shadow, storm, kci, mardu, humans , hollow one, etc. stop looking at what twin was doing 2 years ago because that format no longer exists.

Several good points here.

1. Twin would replace decks. No argument can be made that it wouldnt. UR Kiki and UR Breach for example would 100% disappear.
2. It really doesnt matter. I agree. This T8 exercise was something I just wanted to do to confirm to myself that Twin was not over represented. It wasnt OR OTHER DECKS ARE.
3. The format is completely different now. 100% Its very interesting to see the format take shape, and to remember some of these events. Tarmo Affinity anyone?

Either way, we can all move the goal posts over and over, cite any numbers we have access to, waste time to write up justifications, but in the end it doesnt matter.

Nothing this forum says, will get Twin unbanned.

Nothing.

Its a fallacy however. Twin cannot be unbanned under such a pretext, as other aggro or Bxx Midrange decks have been successful.

There is no, and has never been, a replacement for Twin, at the top of the competitive ladder. The wrong card was banned, and the deck was 'nuked from orbit'.

Blue Moon is not good, in any of the various (Jace, Thing in the Ice, Breach, Kiki, Pyro) shades of deck that exist. Not a single one would hold a candle to Twin, and that is a fact.

If the context for Twin being unbanned is that there must be other successful Control/Combo strategies, then Twin will never be unbanned, because UR Combo/Control, is an evolutionary dead end.

At the time Splinter Twin was banned, we hoped that this would allow room for other Control/Combo decks to shine. Blue Moon strategies have remained popular and a few other Control/Combo (Turns) decks have emerged, but the UR Combo/Control decks eventually disappeared as a result of the ban and nothing else emerged as a viable traditional Combo/Control deck. We expect that with the return of Splinter Twin, those decks will return as a viable option.

I'm up for round 10 on the classification argument. :]

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

Not just Twin... I don't think they are revisiting stuff like Birthing Pod either, even if that card may or may not be too good for the meta. That last part is irrelevant to them. They don't currently want those cards in the meta. But I understand that they said "Jace has a grave in Modern," so anything can change. Wizards constantly flips back and forth - being a business, they have to remain flexible and if it comes to the day that Splinter Twin being released into Modern will make Wizards money, you best believe that it's going to be back, regardless of anything else.

Nah, why would I put you on ignore when your one of the few that at least makes a sensible statement like the above?

Was Twin the best deck? Maybe.
Was it one of several near 50/50 decks? Yep.
Did it die for the Pro Tour? I remain convinced this is so.


Edit: and you know what, to close out this sad topic.

Certain Pros, even a known Modern personality who is a control grinder, was positive 4 Jace, 4 Disrupting Shoal was going to be overbearing on the format.

Last I saw he was down to a single Jace and some UWR folks are back to 0.

Frustrated, I am.

Black would (Brutality/Push) shore up the Burn match...quickly.

Quote from idSurge »

Azban getting work out of Bob, I was hoping the BUG deck would get this one.

Spoke too soon?

You said blue is bad. You lied.

Quote from idSurge »

Your really just saying ban combo for the sake of blue, which is doing fine...

I have no problem with combo as it is now. I dont feel it needs to be powered up. I dont care what color you intend on using.

No, you are missing the point. Twin continues at the same level. Scapeshift becomes tier 1. Delver returns to tier 1. The Control decks get stronger. So we enable at least 1-2 new tempo decks (WUR and RUG Delver) and possibly enable Control without having to ban any decks out of existence. Interactivity increases, the number of fair decks increases, and the number of nonlinear decks increases. Mission accomplished.

All you know for sure is Twin will stay the same or get better, Scapeshift gets better and possibly Delver gets a bit better. You have no idea if control will get better. You have no idea if it helps WUR. You are trading off powering up a couple decks in hopes the other stuff happens. It is risky and a questionable plan of attack on the format in my opinion.

Notice attendance for SCG today? You notice the hits watching the event? Did you notice Twin doesnt need the combo to win?

I would say there is less wrong with the format then most want to admit.

Quote from Valanarch »

Quote from RDSRedemption »

Banning either one would be a huge hit to the deck, I don't want anything banned but if anything does get banned it will likely be Twin (maybe Exarch instead) or/and Rhino.

Wizards just needs to change their design and banning requirements or we wont ever have a safe format.

Agreed. Once again, if no blue fair cards can be unbanned while Twin is amazing, I think that Exarch should be banned and Dig Through Time and Ancestral Vision should be unbanned.

So Twin replaces the copies of Earch with AV or DTT and continues on at the same level, mean while Scapeshift just got vaulted toward the top and we have no new control decks but have powered 2 tempo/combo decks. Yeah!!!! mission accomplished!!

what a game!!!!!

Anyone seen this yet? lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYrslokS2Ac&feature=youtu.be

An interview with WotC about the state of modern.

Before the mods wig out yes its relevant to the discussion

Quote from Pistallion »

Quote from Ym1r »

Quote from ashtonkutcher »

JW isn't everyone ALREADY forced to play Blue or Black to beat ANYTHING? That's how you beat a Combo deck, you bring the beats and you disrupt, not necessarily in that order. That or you execute your own linear gameplan more quickly than they execute theirs. The only good disruption in Modern is Blue (counterspells) or Black (Thoughtsieze effects). Everything else pretty much avoids interacting at all costs, the exception being Zoo, which can disrupt Titan with a Path but outside of that probably loses to that deck most of the time.

Because, unfortunately, UB decks lack a few tools atm. UB Faeries, which would be the most indicative deck based on your description lacks a good mid-game hand refill (AV, looking at you) and can fall off pretty easily. Counters are not all that great and UB Fae has one of the best counters in game, (Spellstutter Sprite). I do still play Faeries ofcourse but there is a reason it is not performing well in general.

I dont raelly understand why a control deck deserves some sort of hand refill like AV? I understand some draw spells, but a deck that mostly plays on the end step and trading 1 for 1 or 1 for 2, why do these decks need a refil. I understand a better catch all like a coutner spell, but idk about AV. Also, i think Fae doesnt do that well has a lot to do with factors out side meta a lot mroe than any other deck. It is somewhat unknown, since it hasnt been a deck since extended was gone, Bitterblossom was banned forever, and the prices of some of the cards are just un reasonable. because of these, i think a lot of people dotn want to try it.

It's not a matter of "deserve"; it's a matter of the fact Ancestral Vision should have been unbanned years ago and, quite frankly, shouldn't have been banned to begin with. The card is not overpowered.

Unbanning GGT wasn't the correct decision because Dredge "deserved" the card; it was the correct decision because there was no good reason for it to be on the banned list. Ditto with Ancestral Vision.