A good friend of mind took my physical 75 to the Top 4 of SCG Regionals on Saturday. He went into the Top 8 5th Seed after 9 rounds and only lost rounds 1 and the Semifinals. I'll try to get more information from him in the near future, but for now he played against the following (with a few select quotes from him as he was giving me the details):
1: Affinity (L) "I never drew a lasting threat."
2: Soul Sisters (W) "Chalice is so f***ed."
3: Jeskai Control (W) "Beat the **** out of them."
4: Scapeshift (W) "The board has nothing vs Scapeshift, but turn 2 Smasher is gas."
5: UR Pyromancer (W) "His deck was all 1-drops."
6: RUG Value/Snap-Goyf-Mandrills-Become Immense-Blood Moon-Temur Battle Rage Thing (W) "He Blood Mooned himself out of the game."
7: Infect (W) "I had Caverns on 0, Dismembered his Noble, then Chaliced him."
8: Jeskai Control (W) "Beat him."
9: Intentional Draw (W)
Qtr: GR Bushwacker Zoo (W)
Semi: Jeskai Control (L, the eventual winner)
The Top 4 ended up being Jeskai, Jeskai, Hollow One, and Eldrazi, with Jeskai taking it down in the end. List's will likely be up whenever SCG gets them, but the 75 he used was the one I previously mentioned in responses with the Endbringer in the board over the Surgical.
Tectonic Edge should surely be Field of Ruin, and I don't think you need Spreading Seas. Those can be replaced with more copies of your Planeswalkers, Countersquall, Mana Leak, Hero's Downfall, or more cheap interaction. 3 Damnation may be one too many, and I think 3/1 Snap/Clique might end up being a better split.
Since you're running LtV now, Think Twice may actually be considerably better than Serum Visions, because you can get value out of it on the back end if you have to discard it over a more valuable card early in the game.
4 Creeping Tar Pit may be too many, as well. I've usually been supremely hesitant to go over 3 in any build I have using them.
In the past few weeks I've had some fairly good runs with the deck. 7-2 at the Atl SCG Classic, a 4-0 FNM, and on Saturday a 3-1-1 draw into Top 8 where I ended up losing the finals to straight UW Miracles. The only other losses were to Tron, Lantern, and UR Breach. I played against most of Moderns 'top decks' with absolutely decisive wins over jund, jeskai control, and affinity.
Humans is tough but close, and Bogles is a weird game, but aside from the losses I had and those matches most games felt basically like byes. Even Bogles has to have a practically perfect hand to win when you start on the play with a Chalice.
The only change I recently made to the last list was -1 Surgical in the board for +1 Endbringer. I just wanted.../something/ versatile that gave a few options when Bridge gets dropped. I'm in the modern seat for a local team event coming up in a few weeks and will likely keep it and run back the same 75. Aside from Grixis Twin and Jund, I haven't played a deck in Modern I've clicked with like this one.
If you wait to play Void, that means it isn't as crucial to draw in the early turns, so we could get away with running 3 so as to return the cavern to the mb and return our valuable sb slot.
I only wait to play Void if I need an attacker the following turn. If I don't need Muta/Nexus I prioritize Void and then push the creature lands out later. 3rd Gemstone in the play is atrocious and I'd never want to risk drawing multiples in game 1 if it could be avoided.
Another four rounds this weekend and a 3-1 on the books with wins over BridgeVine, Ponza, Cruel Control, and a loss to Merfolk (which I sort of just lump into the same pile as humans. Vial based aggressive deck with minor disruption).
23 land feels great to me. With Void I'm usually scrying excess lands to the bottom when they crop up and prioritize playing it over other lands unless I need an attacker the following turn. I am still running Jordan's 75 right now and swap the SB Caverns for Wastes and then cut out a Wastes on the play when my opponent isn't playing GQ going down to 22 lands, but in those games I mulligan super aggressive to a disruptive hand and start.
The only game I won where I think Endless One would have mattered was a long game against UR Breach when he Mooned me and I was capable of casting Chalice on 5. All the other games are generally over too face for a big Endless One to happen, and the card advantage from Matter Reshaper is just so very good.
Also, getting a big Endless One bounced by Reflector Mage against humans just feels absolutely devastating.
So, after a lackluster showing on my part during the Team Open in the Legacy seat, I decided to play this in the Modern Classic the following day.
Short version, 7-2 for 18th place overall. If I had taken my losses later in the day, I likely could have slid in 8th, but there were multiple 7-1-1's and it would be been rather tight. A lock for Top 16, easy, though.
I played Jordan's listed new post-Dominaria 75 with the singleton Gutshot and Surgical in the board.
Affinity 1-0 (2-1 in games)
Game one he does the Affinity thing and I get steamrolled with Infect damage. I board the suggested and win the next two games easily on the back of tons of removal that kill everything. In game three my opponent mulls to 6 with scry to the top on the play and lays out Memnite, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, pass. I Gutshot the Memnite, Dismember the Ornithopter off Temple, and pass. He draws and passes, then I play Temple into Thought-Knot and take the game.
Jund 2-0 (4-1 in games)
If I could play against Jund every round, I would be the happiest boy in the world. These games were extremely one-sided and I just played for a grindy game 1. Game two was even better with all of the Relics I boarded in, keeping Goyf's small and making Eternal Scourge an infinite blocker against Ooze until I found better threats.
Lantern Control 2-1 (5-3 in games)
Misery. I win game two with a very aggressive clock and an Early Chalice + Ratchet Bomb to win the game. Games 1 and 3 were multiple Bridges and Pithing Needles locking me out of the ability to attack. Game 3 ended with him at 1 and my out being Gutshot, but it wasn't in the cards (foreshadowing, not this time, anyway).
UR Breach 2-2 (6-5 in games)
I win game one off T1 Chalice on 1 shutting off all his removal and most cantrips. Games 2 and 3 I get knocked around by Big Sister Eldrazi on turn 5, and then in the very late game in game 3 and it's backed by EOT Ambush Viper with Upside. I do misplay in game three and could likely have had an out due to poor sequencing. It may have been inconsequential, but it did end up with TKS countered and Relic resolved, as opposed to the other way around.
8 Rack 3-2 (8-5 in games)
There's not much to say about these games. Game one was Chalice on 1 on 1, game two I was able to race his Shrieking Afflictions with TKS and Smasher when he didn't have a Bridge to hide behind.
Humans 4-2 (10-6 in games)
I'm not sure what he's on, but I'm on the play with a double Chalice hand. I lay Chalice on 0 and 1, he plays Ancient Ziggurat on 1 and passes. I play creatures, he plays creatures with evasion, and I end up dieing to triple Mantis Rider. Game two I gave a very aggressive draw with Mimic into TKS into Smasher. Game three I play out early removal and he eventually works to stabilize with Hostage Takers in through Vial. On the last turn of the game he has lethal on board at 4 life. I have Copter and Mimic. I cast Scourge trigger Mimic, crew Copter with Scourge and move to attack. He lets me Copter trigger, vials in Hostage taker and steals Copter, then takes three from Scourge. I shrug, confirm he is at one, then place Gutshot on the table and point at him. The look of devastation was evident.
Jund 5-2 (12-6 in games)
Game 1 is long, but boring. My opponent is stuck on 2 lands for a while and takes forever to get going, I aggressively Dismember Bobs and swing in. Game two is long. I go through 2 Relics, 2 Ratchet Bombs, and eventually win with infinite blockers in Eternal Scourge + Relic and a scry'd to the top Smasher breaking through two Bobs.
Affinity 6-2 (14-7 in games)
Game 1 I get rolled over again. It's a tough one out of the gate. Game 2 is Chalice on 0 and 1 in turn 1, then Spyglass on Inkmoth Nexus. Game three I hit multiple Ratchet Bombs to sweep his side and then kill with Scourges.
Ponza 7-2 (16-7 in games)
He shuffles very haphazardly and I see two different copies of Birds of Paradise. I'm on the play, so I shrug into Chalice on 1. He makes a very unhappy face, shrugs, and says okay. I proceed to eventually play a second Chalice on 1 and Smash. He plays Harmonize in the face of my Mimic + Smasher and I am fairly sure it's locked up. Game two is close to the same, but my early TKS sees 2x Molten Rain, Stone Rain, Land, BBE. I have Serum Powder in play and several lands, so I take BBE and let him go to town. He falls behind with me TKS'ing him and using artifact mana to cast Eldrazi through Blood Moon, and I take the win with a Smasher.
End Thoughts: Excellent games. Early Chalice is my Bae and I won't be leaving her for a long time. The only game that really felt close to hopeless was Lantern, and that's just because they had so many angles to account for and the solutions are so few and far between. Culling Scales as mentioned may be a route I take to work through that grind, but its susceptibility to Abrupt Decay and their ability to recur important lock pieces means you generally get one go at things.
but do you think this could be a decent place to start building something viable?
I almost put a Bolas in my SB, and had him and Ashiok sitting together on my final cuts list.
Initial Thoughts:
*Rework the mana. You don't need 4 Watery Grave, and only having 4 red sources (2 of which etb tapped) isn't a good setup. Scalding Tarn is an obvious swap over Bloodstained Mire. Checklands or Battlelands would be an upgrade over the Cycling Lands. You also likely want more lands if you're intent on making it to the long game and casting Bolas.
*Cut a Terminate for a Fatal Push, having another turn 1 interaction that can also kill almost everything in the format is good.
*Pact is...meh. It works best when you're winning the game that turn. If they have to spend removal to kill Bolas, you're already likely trading up between the Hymn, Mill, or blast for 7. Logic Knot and another Snappable Counterspell would likely be better. That or something like Serum Visions or Think Twice to keep playing on your opponents turn, just 4 Opt seems sub-optimal.
*Scarab God is much worse in Modern, there's plenty of wants to remove it for good, it just isn't as sticky in Modern as it is in Standard.
*Jace really is where it's at. At times he was the glue that held the deck together to make it to 7 mana between bouncing threats to buy turns, Fatesealing to ensure my opponent doesn't draw gas, it was likely the reason (along with the stall tactic of 4 Cryptic) that helped me win the games I did.
I have a confession to make. Until last Friday, I had never cast Cruel Ultimatum. Sure, sure, I took a long break from the game around Apocalypse and didn't come back until Fate Reforged, but even in the years since the 7 Mana Epitome of Grixis managed to escape me. That changed, and I now feel like I have actually played 'real Magic.'
Hyperbole aside, I decided to sleeve up Wafo-Tapa's list for my local FNM with just three cards changed. I cut one MD Logic Knot for a Mana Leak, and cut one EE and Countersquall from the board to slide in a Damnation and a 2nd Counterflux to support the one in the main. Things went surprisingly well with my only loss being in three games against 8 Wack where I kept a questionable 7 bug managed to drag the game out to turn 7 or 8 but stabilized at low life, I wasn't able to find a Jace to start building up cards, and a topdecked Bolt ended that game.
In the other three matches, though, it never really felt like I was behind. I took out Abzan Company, WG Company, and KCI.
Abzan Company: I establish control by killing everything he plays in game one, then bounce one creature and make him discard it while edicting his other with Cruel Ultimatum. He turn 3's me in game 2 after I tap out to flashback a Think Twice in his end step. I again put together the Jace + Kill everything plan in game 3. Staticaster and K Command do the Lord's Work, here.
WG Company: I get rolled in game one, and he makes a sideboarding mistake of trying to take the game long for 2 and 3. Game 3 I cast CU three times (once Snapped, felt bonkers) after having to Damnation-Snap-Damnation to clear the board of multiple copies of Voice of Resurgence. He concedes when I Snap-Ultimatum.
KCI: Game 1 he rolls me on turn 3 or so. In come all the hate. Game 2 and 3 are won on A) the back of Counterflux and B) the fact that he sideboarded out a copy of KCI for some reason, and was only running three in game 3. I proceed to 'flux, Reject, 'flux, Snap-flux all threats of merit and he conceedes when I cast Ultimatum.
It seems like "demoralization" is an additional win condition I hadn't considered, and boy is it a strong one. 7 or 8-for-1ing your opponent delivers a crushing blow to their morale and outlook that is really only matched by turn 3 natural Tron into Karn. I'm surely going to keep this one sleeved up for a while now and see how it keeps treating me.
Has any thought gone into moving toward 12 spells (4x Vial, Seas, 2x Dismember/Vapor Snag/Spell Pierce, Chart a Course) in the maindeck to provide a better grip against sweeper effects? Additionally, has anyone tried Unsubstantiate recently after the rise in Jeskai as an out to Supreme Verdict for a turn to hopefully get a damage kill in before they can recast it?
Thanks guys. I'm not itching to ditch my Cavern, but just wondering if Wreckage would be better. I too had thought that Cavern would be good against Miracles, so the fact that Wreckage is also good against them isn't necessarily a reason to switch.
In the games I have played against Miracles, they tend to board out some number of Counterbalance once they've seen Cavern. I'm currently running 9 Plains / 3 Karakas / 4 Port / 4 Wasteland / 2 Cavern / 1 Sea Gate Wreckage as my lands, but I'm constantly going back and forth on the Sea Gate trying to decide if I want it as Horizon Canopy or a Flagstones since I run Cataclysm in my standard board.
When other things are bad. I usually bring it in when they have Bridge, too, because it's another way to win through a Bridge stall.
1: Affinity (L) "I never drew a lasting threat."
2: Soul Sisters (W) "Chalice is so f***ed."
3: Jeskai Control (W) "Beat the **** out of them."
4: Scapeshift (W) "The board has nothing vs Scapeshift, but turn 2 Smasher is gas."
5: UR Pyromancer (W) "His deck was all 1-drops."
6: RUG Value/Snap-Goyf-Mandrills-Become Immense-Blood Moon-Temur Battle Rage Thing (W) "He Blood Mooned himself out of the game."
7: Infect (W) "I had Caverns on 0, Dismembered his Noble, then Chaliced him."
8: Jeskai Control (W) "Beat him."
9: Intentional Draw (W)
Qtr: GR Bushwacker Zoo (W)
Semi: Jeskai Control (L, the eventual winner)
The Top 4 ended up being Jeskai, Jeskai, Hollow One, and Eldrazi, with Jeskai taking it down in the end. List's will likely be up whenever SCG gets them, but the 75 he used was the one I previously mentioned in responses with the Endbringer in the board over the Surgical.
Edit: 2 cards different in the SB, he cut the 2nd Spyglass for a 2nd Gutshot, and the Caverns for an Endbringer.
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/121378
Since you're running LtV now, Think Twice may actually be considerably better than Serum Visions, because you can get value out of it on the back end if you have to discard it over a more valuable card early in the game.
4 Creeping Tar Pit may be too many, as well. I've usually been supremely hesitant to go over 3 in any build I have using them.
Humans is tough but close, and Bogles is a weird game, but aside from the losses I had and those matches most games felt basically like byes. Even Bogles has to have a practically perfect hand to win when you start on the play with a Chalice.
The only change I recently made to the last list was -1 Surgical in the board for +1 Endbringer. I just wanted.../something/ versatile that gave a few options when Bridge gets dropped. I'm in the modern seat for a local team event coming up in a few weeks and will likely keep it and run back the same 75. Aside from Grixis Twin and Jund, I haven't played a deck in Modern I've clicked with like this one.
I only wait to play Void if I need an attacker the following turn. If I don't need Muta/Nexus I prioritize Void and then push the creature lands out later. 3rd Gemstone in the play is atrocious and I'd never want to risk drawing multiples in game 1 if it could be avoided.
23 land feels great to me. With Void I'm usually scrying excess lands to the bottom when they crop up and prioritize playing it over other lands unless I need an attacker the following turn. I am still running Jordan's 75 right now and swap the SB Caverns for Wastes and then cut out a Wastes on the play when my opponent isn't playing GQ going down to 22 lands, but in those games I mulligan super aggressive to a disruptive hand and start.
Thankfully I'm on 0 Endless One and Chalice comes out against humans. I could see some dissynergy between it and Chalice in the Lantern match, though.
Also, getting a big Endless One bounced by Reflector Mage against humans just feels absolutely devastating.
Main:
-1 Snapcaster, +1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
-1 Electrolyze, +1 Collective Brutality
-1 Logic Knot, +1 Mana Leak
Sideboard:
-1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Damnation
-1 Countersquall, +1 Counterflux
I posted my thoughts on the previous page.
Short version, 7-2 for 18th place overall. If I had taken my losses later in the day, I likely could have slid in 8th, but there were multiple 7-1-1's and it would be been rather tight. A lock for Top 16, easy, though.
I played Jordan's listed new post-Dominaria 75 with the singleton Gutshot and Surgical in the board.
Affinity 1-0 (2-1 in games)
Game one he does the Affinity thing and I get steamrolled with Infect damage. I board the suggested and win the next two games easily on the back of tons of removal that kill everything. In game three my opponent mulls to 6 with scry to the top on the play and lays out Memnite, Ornithopter, Mox Opal, pass. I Gutshot the Memnite, Dismember the Ornithopter off Temple, and pass. He draws and passes, then I play Temple into Thought-Knot and take the game.
Jund 2-0 (4-1 in games)
If I could play against Jund every round, I would be the happiest boy in the world. These games were extremely one-sided and I just played for a grindy game 1. Game two was even better with all of the Relics I boarded in, keeping Goyf's small and making Eternal Scourge an infinite blocker against Ooze until I found better threats.
Lantern Control 2-1 (5-3 in games)
Misery. I win game two with a very aggressive clock and an Early Chalice + Ratchet Bomb to win the game. Games 1 and 3 were multiple Bridges and Pithing Needles locking me out of the ability to attack. Game 3 ended with him at 1 and my out being Gutshot, but it wasn't in the cards (foreshadowing, not this time, anyway).
UR Breach 2-2 (6-5 in games)
I win game one off T1 Chalice on 1 shutting off all his removal and most cantrips. Games 2 and 3 I get knocked around by Big Sister Eldrazi on turn 5, and then in the very late game in game 3 and it's backed by EOT Ambush Viper with Upside. I do misplay in game three and could likely have had an out due to poor sequencing. It may have been inconsequential, but it did end up with TKS countered and Relic resolved, as opposed to the other way around.
8 Rack 3-2 (8-5 in games)
There's not much to say about these games. Game one was Chalice on 1 on 1, game two I was able to race his Shrieking Afflictions with TKS and Smasher when he didn't have a Bridge to hide behind.
Humans 4-2 (10-6 in games)
I'm not sure what he's on, but I'm on the play with a double Chalice hand. I lay Chalice on 0 and 1, he plays Ancient Ziggurat on 1 and passes. I play creatures, he plays creatures with evasion, and I end up dieing to triple Mantis Rider. Game two I gave a very aggressive draw with Mimic into TKS into Smasher. Game three I play out early removal and he eventually works to stabilize with Hostage Takers in through Vial. On the last turn of the game he has lethal on board at 4 life. I have Copter and Mimic. I cast Scourge trigger Mimic, crew Copter with Scourge and move to attack. He lets me Copter trigger, vials in Hostage taker and steals Copter, then takes three from Scourge. I shrug, confirm he is at one, then place Gutshot on the table and point at him. The look of devastation was evident.
Jund 5-2 (12-6 in games)
Game 1 is long, but boring. My opponent is stuck on 2 lands for a while and takes forever to get going, I aggressively Dismember Bobs and swing in. Game two is long. I go through 2 Relics, 2 Ratchet Bombs, and eventually win with infinite blockers in Eternal Scourge + Relic and a scry'd to the top Smasher breaking through two Bobs.
Affinity 6-2 (14-7 in games)
Game 1 I get rolled over again. It's a tough one out of the gate. Game 2 is Chalice on 0 and 1 in turn 1, then Spyglass on Inkmoth Nexus. Game three I hit multiple Ratchet Bombs to sweep his side and then kill with Scourges.
Ponza 7-2 (16-7 in games)
He shuffles very haphazardly and I see two different copies of Birds of Paradise. I'm on the play, so I shrug into Chalice on 1. He makes a very unhappy face, shrugs, and says okay. I proceed to eventually play a second Chalice on 1 and Smash. He plays Harmonize in the face of my Mimic + Smasher and I am fairly sure it's locked up. Game two is close to the same, but my early TKS sees 2x Molten Rain, Stone Rain, Land, BBE. I have Serum Powder in play and several lands, so I take BBE and let him go to town. He falls behind with me TKS'ing him and using artifact mana to cast Eldrazi through Blood Moon, and I take the win with a Smasher.
End Thoughts: Excellent games. Early Chalice is my Bae and I won't be leaving her for a long time. The only game that really felt close to hopeless was Lantern, and that's just because they had so many angles to account for and the solutions are so few and far between. Culling Scales as mentioned may be a route I take to work through that grind, but its susceptibility to Abrupt Decay and their ability to recur important lock pieces means you generally get one go at things.
I almost put a Bolas in my SB, and had him and Ashiok sitting together on my final cuts list.
Initial Thoughts:
*Rework the mana. You don't need 4 Watery Grave, and only having 4 red sources (2 of which etb tapped) isn't a good setup. Scalding Tarn is an obvious swap over Bloodstained Mire. Checklands or Battlelands would be an upgrade over the Cycling Lands. You also likely want more lands if you're intent on making it to the long game and casting Bolas.
*Cut a Terminate for a Fatal Push, having another turn 1 interaction that can also kill almost everything in the format is good.
*Pact is...meh. It works best when you're winning the game that turn. If they have to spend removal to kill Bolas, you're already likely trading up between the Hymn, Mill, or blast for 7. Logic Knot and another Snappable Counterspell would likely be better. That or something like Serum Visions or Think Twice to keep playing on your opponents turn, just 4 Opt seems sub-optimal.
*Scarab God is much worse in Modern, there's plenty of wants to remove it for good, it just isn't as sticky in Modern as it is in Standard.
*Jace really is where it's at. At times he was the glue that held the deck together to make it to 7 mana between bouncing threats to buy turns, Fatesealing to ensure my opponent doesn't draw gas, it was likely the reason (along with the stall tactic of 4 Cryptic) that helped me win the games I did.
Hyperbole aside, I decided to sleeve up Wafo-Tapa's list for my local FNM with just three cards changed. I cut one MD Logic Knot for a Mana Leak, and cut one EE and Countersquall from the board to slide in a Damnation and a 2nd Counterflux to support the one in the main. Things went surprisingly well with my only loss being in three games against 8 Wack where I kept a questionable 7 bug managed to drag the game out to turn 7 or 8 but stabilized at low life, I wasn't able to find a Jace to start building up cards, and a topdecked Bolt ended that game.
In the other three matches, though, it never really felt like I was behind. I took out Abzan Company, WG Company, and KCI.
Abzan Company: I establish control by killing everything he plays in game one, then bounce one creature and make him discard it while edicting his other with Cruel Ultimatum. He turn 3's me in game 2 after I tap out to flashback a Think Twice in his end step. I again put together the Jace + Kill everything plan in game 3. Staticaster and K Command do the Lord's Work, here.
WG Company: I get rolled in game one, and he makes a sideboarding mistake of trying to take the game long for 2 and 3. Game 3 I cast CU three times (once Snapped, felt bonkers) after having to Damnation-Snap-Damnation to clear the board of multiple copies of Voice of Resurgence. He concedes when I Snap-Ultimatum.
KCI: Game 1 he rolls me on turn 3 or so. In come all the hate. Game 2 and 3 are won on A) the back of Counterflux and B) the fact that he sideboarded out a copy of KCI for some reason, and was only running three in game 3. I proceed to 'flux, Reject, 'flux, Snap-flux all threats of merit and he conceedes when I cast Ultimatum.
It seems like "demoralization" is an additional win condition I hadn't considered, and boy is it a strong one. 7 or 8-for-1ing your opponent delivers a crushing blow to their morale and outlook that is really only matched by turn 3 natural Tron into Karn. I'm surely going to keep this one sleeved up for a while now and see how it keeps treating me.
In the games I have played against Miracles, they tend to board out some number of Counterbalance once they've seen Cavern. I'm currently running 9 Plains / 3 Karakas / 4 Port / 4 Wasteland / 2 Cavern / 1 Sea Gate Wreckage as my lands, but I'm constantly going back and forth on the Sea Gate trying to decide if I want it as Horizon Canopy or a Flagstones since I run Cataclysm in my standard board.