Something just occured to me: Nahiri's plan was much more intricate and convoluted than anything Bolas had ever come up with so far.
Oh god, Nahiri is smarter than Bolas.
I'm not quite sure what Bolas did in Alara and Zendikar, but it doesn't seem like a very high bar to leap over. Seems mostly like Emrakul did all the work, all Nahiri did was summon it.
Makes me wonder how people will react when we eventually go back to Theros to find out it won't be strictly greco-roman mythology based anymore.
It better be. We didn't even get half of the tropes we should have, or even half the legends in the books and lore.
There is plenty to do for a Greek world that they don't need it to crash into New Phyrexia or whatever extreme shift they might throw at it. Not saying it needs to be like Return to Ravnica, but drastic shifts aren't necessary, just some shifting.
Exactly. There is still a lot of untapped potential in Greek Mythology to pursue, and even Theros mythology to pursue as well. Elspeth, Ashiok, Dack and Ajani, the absent RG god of Love, etc. There is a lot left to explore on Theros and frankly, I hope they just keep the damn setting the same and play out a good story in Theros as Greek World. Don't upturn and change the whole damn plane just to tell Elspeth's tragic story. Don't make it gods vs. some other crap. Don't make it all about Ashiok screwing Theros over. Just leave the plane alone and tell a solid story without ruining another world, or throwing New Phyrexia or Eldrazi or Bolas at it.
I'd be fine with Bolas actually, if just because I think he could do stuff without having to undermine the entire Greek feel of the world like Eldrazi/Phyrexia would. He's kind of due for an appearance anyways, outside of Tarkir it's been a bit. But he can also sit his turn and wait, I just don't want alien invaders to appear on another block for a while. I'm really curious about where the RG god went too. I realize for some it might not be to there liking but that doesn't mean that it needs to be completely upturned for it to work as a return. Thinking on it Ravnica is the only return we've had that wasn't drastically different, though I guess Zendikar is arguable. Hope that's not the start of a trend.
The blue part of the new sarkhan is because he isn't bound by bolas and is now able to think for himself once again...
Going off of Maro's blog, Sarkhan is Blue because of time travel and "wanting to perfect his world" or some such. I know there have been other examples there of characters getting colors based on there power set, like Elsa got Blue because of her ice magic. Whether or not you think its the only reason, it's definitely a totally viable reason to have a color, and I'm also positive that he's had characters where that is the only reason.
You may think that the blue motive justification for Sarkhan is weak and a stretch (it is), but they always at least attempt to give a motive/personality reason for the color. If Nahiri has no plan other than destroying Innistrad for revenge, what is white about that? Maybe eye for an eye, I guess?
My argument is more that there have been examples that characters get colors for reasons other than personality/motive, and they go further than Sarkhan. Again, Elsa with Blue because of ice. Now, might not mirror how they did Nahiri, but it at least says that tools is enough for a color. Nahiri could be a red character with white tools.
And revenge can be white, doesn't mean Nahiri is. Though outside of examples from before there more relaxed use of multicolor I'm not sure there is much.
Doesn't this all tie to the problem of MaRo insisting that some things have to be a certain color? I remember him stating that fire usage always had to be Red regardless of everything else, so you could theoretically get a character who was perfectly, say Blue, but if he used fire, the character would have to be printed in an R/U card solely because of his fire usage even should he be perfectly antithetical to Blue.
If that's a problem isn't really something I'm trying to debate, nor do I see much merit in it. But yes, pretty sure he's given examples of a character like that and they would get a card like that. Which means there isn't any issue with Nahiri using her current spell set of White with a Red motivation. Again, whether or not that's a good thing, whether or not that's even actually what they did with her, the point is that it's theoretically possible for sure, it shouldn't be ruled as not happening at all.
Makes me wonder how people will react when we eventually go back to Theros to find out it won't be strictly greco-roman mythology based anymore.
It better be. We didn't even get half of the tropes we should have, or even half the legends in the books and lore.
There is plenty to do for a Greek world that they don't need it to crash into New Phyrexia or whatever extreme shift they might throw at it. Not saying it needs to be like Return to Ravnica, but drastic shifts aren't necessary, just some shifting.
Color identity has never worked that way before. Up to this point, personality and motive were everything.
*points at Sarkhan, Unbroken and Blue* Part of the justification for it is that he time travels. I know that there have been other examples where your tools determine your color identity partially.
The blue part of the new sarkhan is because he isn't bound by bolas and is now able to think for himself once again...
Going off of Maro's blog, Sarkhan is Blue because of time travel and "wanting to perfect his world" or some such. I know there have been other examples there of characters getting colors based on there power set, like Elsa got Blue because of her ice magic. Whether or not you think its the only reason, it's definitely a totally viable reason to have a color, and I'm also positive that he's had characters where that is the only reason.
You may think that the blue motive justification for Sarkhan is weak and a stretch (it is), but they always at least attempt to give a motive/personality reason for the color. If Nahiri has no plan other than destroying Innistrad for revenge, what is white about that? Maybe eye for an eye, I guess?
My argument is more that there have been examples that characters get colors for reasons other than personality/motive, and they go further than Sarkhan. Again, Elsa with Blue because of ice. Now, might not mirror how they did Nahiri, but it at least says that tools is enough for a color. Nahiri could be a red character with white tools.
And revenge can be white, doesn't mean Nahiri is. Though outside of examples from before there more relaxed use of multicolor I'm not sure there is much.
Color identity has never worked that way before. Up to this point, personality and motive were everything.
*points at Sarkhan, Unbroken and Blue* Part of the justification for it is that he time travels. I know that there have been other examples where your tools determine your color identity partially.
The blue part of the new sarkhan is because he isn't bound by bolas and is now able to think for himself once again...
Going off of Maro's blog, Sarkhan is Blue because of time travel and "wanting to perfect his world" or some such. I know there have been other examples there of characters getting colors based on there power set, like Elsa got Blue because of her ice magic. Whether or not you think its the only reason, it's definitely a totally viable reason to have a color, and I'm also positive that he's had characters where that is the only reason.
Color identity has never worked that way before. Up to this point, personality and motive were everything.
*points at Sarkhan, Unbroken and Blue* Part of the justification for it is that he time travels. I know that there have been other examples where your tools determine your color identity partially.
Literally no angels isn't accurate, but angels that are pretty much incapable of doing anything works fine.
Again I'm not clear why you think this will be the case? They left hope for recovery on Zendikar and like 90% of that plane was dust.
*shrugs* Difference in perception I guess. Even if they somehow manage to remove Emrakul the livelihood of the plane is in question when Avacyn was needed to keep things stable. Emrakul is just speeding up the process, not changing what seems like the end result.
People complaining about characters dying: it's a HORROR plane. Bad things are supposed to happen to good characters. Hell, it's a horror plane with cosmic horror layered on top. One reason BFZ sucked is because it was full of Eldritch abominations yet nobody who mattered died. I liked the Angels a lot, but this is what's supposed to happen in this sort of story.
Actually, what's supposed to happen is everyone dies horribly, but that can't be expected for a serial. True Detective is as upbeat as you can get with cosmic horror.
Especially angels. Sorry angel fans but you're lucky they were even there in the first place. Innistrad taking a nosedive for the worst & angels biting the dust hard was certainly for the best in terms of top down "flavor first" design for a horror plane...
And I loved every minute of it
Edit: angels & bright shining hope in general detract heavily from a theme that feeds heavily off the complete absence of all hope & this honestly makes the resolution of good guy(s)/gal(s) surving/winning in that one unlikely moment all the more sweet.
For instance, War of the Worlds being won by the microbes of earth out of left field was pure horror-writing genius.
For me it's just over the top. It was already bleak even with Avacyn, Emrakul on top of no angels is just overkill.
First of all if Emrakul didnt corrupt the angels people would be complaining that it doesn't make sense since the angels of Zendikar were corrupted.
Secondly I'm not sure why people are assuming that all angels on Innistrad are gone forever. Wizards cares a lot about the iconography of its worlds. Excluding the case where Innistrad actually gets destroyed (0% chance) or is irreparably corrupted (call it a 5% chance) there are going to be angels on Innistrad by the time we leave. In fact I expect that we'll see Sigarda and the Host of Herons doing traditional angel stuff in this set.
I think part of the issue here may that the three act structure is much harder to tell with only two set than Creative expected. BFZ/OGW had satisfying structure (despite story problems) because the setup for it had already been told and the story basically fit into two acts. SOI/EMN needs to fit both a massive disaster and the recovery from that disaster into the final set.
Literally no angels isn't accurate, but angels that are pretty much incapable of doing anything works fine. I'm sure we may see some normal angels, but removing Avacyn, again, to me is over the top. Avacyn already had a built in power limiter, kept Innistrad stable. Removing her might make Innistrad more horrifying, but that doesn't make it a better horror world necessarily.
[quote from="user_938036 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/675516-magic-story-articles-discussion-soi-emn-no?comment=1773"]Why does no one seem to get that revenge and vengeance are 100% white, there is no need for other colors for white to strike back. White doesn't strike first but once you have attacked all bets are off. Everything Nahiri has done so far is well within the reason of a white character, stop trying to paint white as good.
Black and Red very, very easily can go vengeance route too. Just because they focus on the not attacking first aspect for some of White's removal doesn't mean it's the only color that can have any desire for revenge. I'm not quite sure how it might work for Green/Blue but I'm sure they have it in them too.
I'm aware that other colors can fight for revenge and vengeance but I was specifically calling out that white does this too, because many people are trying to figure out why Nahiri is W/R when she could easily be mono R. I was pointing out that she doesn't even need the R, all of her actions 'could' be done as mono W. Some people are trying to justify her being white with some kind of greater good theories but we have nothing supporting these theories other than wishful thinking. White doesn't have to be for the greater good, that is just how some of its greatest atrocities are commited.
White can do horrible things, but it's not going to kill an entire plane out of spite. It'll kill an entire plane to save another perhaps, or any number of variations, but that kind of emotional focus is very much a Red thing. Pretty sure her being White is just about her skillset, not about her current mindset.
Sorin and Nahiri have fought and the vampire will have killed her.
I don't think Sorin is able to kill Nahiri. Nahiri already bested Sorin in combat and the only reason he was able to seal her in the Helvault was because Avacyn showed up. In fact the fact she got sealed kind of proves he can't beat her. As Avacyn once said, "that which cannot be destroyed must be bound." Let's not forget Nahiri was powerful enough to summon Emrakul on her own and not be corrupted by Emrakul. She's incredibly powerful. Nahiri would have defeated both Avacyn and Sorin if not for the Helvault. Besides I think that's bad writing. The Gatewatch needs long term villains besides Ob Nixilis. Nahiri would be an amazing enemy of the Gatewatch. I actually hope Nahiri kills Sorin but I don't think that will happen either. Sorin is a ***** head and he deserves to die.
Sorin was weakened from making Avacyn at the time, this was made pretty explicitly clear with his point of view story. That was also pre-Mending.
Why does no one seem to get that revenge and vengeance are 100% white, there is no need for other colors for white to strike back. White doesn't strike first but once you have attacked all bets are off. Everything Nahiri has done so far is well within the reason of a white character, stop trying to paint white as good.
Black and Red very, very easily can go vengeance route too. Just because they focus on the not attacking first aspect for some of White's removal doesn't mean it's the only color that can have any desire for revenge. I'm not quite sure how it might work for Green/Blue but I'm sure they have it in them too.
People complaining about characters dying: it's a HORROR plane. Bad things are supposed to happen to good characters. Hell, it's a horror plane with cosmic horror layered on top. One reason BFZ sucked is because it was full of Eldritch abominations yet nobody who mattered died. I liked the Angels a lot, but this is what's supposed to happen in this sort of story.
Actually, what's supposed to happen is everyone dies horribly, but that can't be expected for a serial. True Detective is as upbeat as you can get with cosmic horror.
Especially angels. Sorry angel fans but you're lucky they were even there in the first place. Innistrad taking a nosedive for the worst & angels biting the dust hard was certainly for the best in terms of top down "flavor first" design for a horror plane...
And I loved every minute of it
Edit: angels & bright shining hope in general detract heavily from a theme that feeds heavily off the complete absence of all hope & this honestly makes the resolution of good guy(s)/gal(s) surving/winning in that one unlikely moment all the more sweet.
For instance, War of the Worlds being won by the microbes of earth out of left field was pure horror-writing genius.
For me it's just over the top. It was already bleak even with Avacyn, Emrakul on top of no angels is just overkill. To me horror isn't about an ant fighting a human, which is what this feels like. Lovecraft did that for sure, but not a fan of it.
That and it bugs me that the "Angel" set leads into something like this. I doubt that Tarkir is going to be this bleak when next we go there, don't really like that they consider Avacyn Restored as a good comparison for angels.
Dominaria is basically a world where all planes and all themes can and do exist.
WoTC doesn't want to have a setting focused on the kitchen sink, they want a specific theme, feel and tone.
When people think of Dominaria, they think of the kitchen sink. They want the whole kitchen sink. If they only get a piece of Dominaria, they will be disappointed and angry.
Simple as that. Plus, the last time we saw Dominaria it was... Apocalyptic. It was also one of the worst sets in the history of the game. People were leaving the game in droves. Nostalgia is a powerful tool but they totally flubbed it with Time Spiral. I think they have learned a lot since they have gone back and visited 4 older planes now (Mirrodin, Ravnica, Innistrad and Zendikar) and done a good job balancing nostalgia and making a set where new players feel welcome.
WotC will go back to Dominaria, some day, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
As someone relatively new to the lore (joining more officially around Return to Ravnica), I just don't find Dominaria very interesting either. It seems like a place that might appeal to the most enfranchised players, but that seems like a relatively niche crowd these days. Generic fantasy land isn't exactly the most interesting of concepts, and that seems to be what it is. Although I may dislike some sets, others I love, even ones from before I was playing. Dominaria I have a hard time feeling any real emotion towards either way.
I started playing in the early 2000's. Time Spiral killed the game for me. It is a cool place with iconic cards but it is... generic. Lots of fluff but it is a very generic setting. It was designed to be that way too, since it was the one and only plane visited for years and years. It was designed to be as broad as possible to allow for lots of different stories.
Personally, I find the new style much more interesting. We visit a place for 2 sets, then move on to the next. Everything is fresh and new. If you don't like a setting, wait 6 months and something else will come out.
I do think the new style works really well in general and for an eventual return to Dominaria. It just means that for someone like you and I it'll be something that we ignore for the most part for half a yeah, but hopefully the next set and the one before it will be interesting. If it was the old style it would mean a year of boredom, which isn't exactly the kind of thing that Wizards wants, nor I.
Though I do like aspects of Time Spiral, mostly the color warping of the second set and the hints for future stuff in the third. First set was obviously a big miss for me though, and not sure exactly what could have been done differently to make it more appealing.
Innistrad will not be destroyed. it's too popular.
Also I doubt Emarkul is going to be destroyed. She fits a need in the MTG rogues gallery.
She does? What she's doing seems pretty similar to what Phyrexians do, though there are obvious differences. I'm not sure what need she's filling really.
I'm not quite sure what Bolas did in Alara and Zendikar, but it doesn't seem like a very high bar to leap over. Seems mostly like Emrakul did all the work, all Nahiri did was summon it.
I'd be fine with Bolas actually, if just because I think he could do stuff without having to undermine the entire Greek feel of the world like Eldrazi/Phyrexia would. He's kind of due for an appearance anyways, outside of Tarkir it's been a bit. But he can also sit his turn and wait, I just don't want alien invaders to appear on another block for a while. I'm really curious about where the RG god went too. I realize for some it might not be to there liking but that doesn't mean that it needs to be completely upturned for it to work as a return. Thinking on it Ravnica is the only return we've had that wasn't drastically different, though I guess Zendikar is arguable. Hope that's not the start of a trend.
If that's a problem isn't really something I'm trying to debate, nor do I see much merit in it. But yes, pretty sure he's given examples of a character like that and they would get a card like that. Which means there isn't any issue with Nahiri using her current spell set of White with a Red motivation. Again, whether or not that's a good thing, whether or not that's even actually what they did with her, the point is that it's theoretically possible for sure, it shouldn't be ruled as not happening at all.
There is plenty to do for a Greek world that they don't need it to crash into New Phyrexia or whatever extreme shift they might throw at it. Not saying it needs to be like Return to Ravnica, but drastic shifts aren't necessary, just some shifting.
My argument is more that there have been examples that characters get colors for reasons other than personality/motive, and they go further than Sarkhan. Again, Elsa with Blue because of ice. Now, might not mirror how they did Nahiri, but it at least says that tools is enough for a color. Nahiri could be a red character with white tools.
And revenge can be white, doesn't mean Nahiri is. Though outside of examples from before there more relaxed use of multicolor I'm not sure there is much.
Going off of Maro's blog, Sarkhan is Blue because of time travel and "wanting to perfect his world" or some such. I know there have been other examples there of characters getting colors based on there power set, like Elsa got Blue because of her ice magic. Whether or not you think its the only reason, it's definitely a totally viable reason to have a color, and I'm also positive that he's had characters where that is the only reason.
*points at Sarkhan, Unbroken and Blue* Part of the justification for it is that he time travels. I know that there have been other examples where your tools determine your color identity partially.
*shrugs* Difference in perception I guess. Even if they somehow manage to remove Emrakul the livelihood of the plane is in question when Avacyn was needed to keep things stable. Emrakul is just speeding up the process, not changing what seems like the end result.
Literally no angels isn't accurate, but angels that are pretty much incapable of doing anything works fine. I'm sure we may see some normal angels, but removing Avacyn, again, to me is over the top. Avacyn already had a built in power limiter, kept Innistrad stable. Removing her might make Innistrad more horrifying, but that doesn't make it a better horror world necessarily.
White can do horrible things, but it's not going to kill an entire plane out of spite. It'll kill an entire plane to save another perhaps, or any number of variations, but that kind of emotional focus is very much a Red thing. Pretty sure her being White is just about her skillset, not about her current mindset.
Sorin was weakened from making Avacyn at the time, this was made pretty explicitly clear with his point of view story. That was also pre-Mending.
Black and Red very, very easily can go vengeance route too. Just because they focus on the not attacking first aspect for some of White's removal doesn't mean it's the only color that can have any desire for revenge. I'm not quite sure how it might work for Green/Blue but I'm sure they have it in them too.
For me it's just over the top. It was already bleak even with Avacyn, Emrakul on top of no angels is just overkill. To me horror isn't about an ant fighting a human, which is what this feels like. Lovecraft did that for sure, but not a fan of it.
That and it bugs me that the "Angel" set leads into something like this. I doubt that Tarkir is going to be this bleak when next we go there, don't really like that they consider Avacyn Restored as a good comparison for angels.
I do think the new style works really well in general and for an eventual return to Dominaria. It just means that for someone like you and I it'll be something that we ignore for the most part for half a yeah, but hopefully the next set and the one before it will be interesting. If it was the old style it would mean a year of boredom, which isn't exactly the kind of thing that Wizards wants, nor I.
Though I do like aspects of Time Spiral, mostly the color warping of the second set and the hints for future stuff in the third. First set was obviously a big miss for me though, and not sure exactly what could have been done differently to make it more appealing.
She does? What she's doing seems pretty similar to what Phyrexians do, though there are obvious differences. I'm not sure what need she's filling really.