At worst your opponent will take 4 to kill the BTS and then continue to destroy your board with Jitte. Snuff Out and Dismember have shown us that losing 4 to kill a creature for free is not a bad deal. BTS is not a good solution to Jitte unless opponent is already below 4 life.
Don't forget about the 1 you take in order to equip it, so you're up to 5 damage it's dealing. Also, to ensure gaining counters on the Jitte you'd have to be attacking as well, so that should allow the BTS to get at least one attack in on you as well, so you're either blocking a 3/4 and probably losing a creature or taking another 3 damage and that brings the total to 8. I don't think Snuff Out or Dismember would be played if they cost 8 life or 5 life and a creature.
I dunno man, I think it's great against Jitte. Outside of flat-out removal, what's better against Jitte than this guy?
Yeah, on Thursday we cubed and the player who first picked a Jitte said that he just can't play it when the opponent has this guy on the board - it's just not worth it-that extra damage on top of what R/G beatdown does...I think that's pretty good.
I'm looking to create a powerful and fun draft format, especially designed for 4-8 player booster drafts. I want there to be options for all different levels of playskill. For me, that means having, for the most part, a creature-based cube where there are playable midrange cards in every color, while allowing for control and aggro options and several build-around-me cards.
The number of cards in each of my colors (and multicolor combinations) are not perfectly balanced, but having a variance of < 5 cards per color in a 630 card cube doesn't really favor one color over another. That said, I don't limit the number of multicolor cards in my cube - it's more about if the card itself is good enough for cube, I'll try to find a way to make it fit. If there is a better monocolored option, the multicolor card will probably not cut it.
Another reason I'm not so concerned with being exactly even between each color is that, with very few exceptions (Crystal Shard and Vedalken Shackles) the cards are classified how they are printed, not how they play - that means Momentary Blink and Lingering Souls are White, and not Azorius or Orzhov, and Spectral Procession and Exalted Angel are found under converted mana cost 6 and not 3. I've found it's just the easiest way for me to sort the cards without confusion. Mono-colored lands are found in the colored sections. If any 2-color dual land were to be added and not added as a cycle, they'd be in the respective guild sections.
My personal preferences will show through of course, for example, I really like clones, so there's a bunch of both of those here.
Enough with the blah blah, let's look at some cards!
But if your opponent is not relying on creatures than he's still a 3/3 hexproof for 4 - it can bring the beatdown. And if your opponents creatures are smaller, then he's still a 3/3 hexproof for 4 and can hold the fort quite well.
I think he seems pretty good overall, and is going to be relevant is most game states. I think it comes down to whether or not you think the mana fixing is right in your cube to regularly support mana costs like this. If so, I'd say he's definitely in (but, I've always valued Clone-variant cards higher than most, I think).
I'm currently running 4 cards in my 630 cube (I don't run signets or lands in their multicolor sections):
Psychatog
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Evil Twin
The last one on the list is a little bit out there, but he's been great. We love us some clones in our playgroup (there's a bunch in my cube), and the ability to kill the original creature is boss. (Also tech if he copies a persist/undying creature, kills himself, and comes back as a different creature.)
I haven't got my hands on a Baleful Strix yet, that would probably find its way in if I got one. UB Tezzeret isn't what I'm looking for as I'm not currently supporting a Big Artifact strategy.
Overall I'm pretty happy with my Dimir section, but still excited to see how Gatecrash will shake up my cube.
If my counterspells cost more than 2 mana I really want them to be able to provide more. I like even Rewind more than this, for example, as being able to untap lands (for another play or even the threat of another counter) seems like a lot better value than choosing top or bottom for the countered spell.
I guess my experience with the card is quite different. I think it's a card that can really shine in very specific situations, but I haven't found it to be very flexible at all. I mean, when is it at its best? When the opponent has 3-4 creatures, all with toughness 4 or less, none of them have shroud, hexproof, or protection from red, and you're sitting with Firestorm and 4 lands in your hand, yeah, it's going to be super awesome. But most of the time I couldn't find myself wanting to get rid of so many resources (not necessarily just cards in hand, but sometimes in order to get the damage per target output high enough targeting one of my own creatures is needed) to do the appropriate amount of damage.
In aggro decks, it's awful. I think most agree here, it's really not good at doing a lot of damage to one target.
In control decks, it's awful. It's almost always card disadvantage. The only real selling point here is that it's only one mana, so you can basically determine whenever you need to play it. But red has so many more better crowd control options than this card with all the pyroclasm variants that actually do what control likes and that's gain card advantage.
In combo decks, it's playable. Because the heart of the combo decks is to win with a specific subset of cards, I find that more of the cards in the deck are expendable to justify such a ludicrous cost, and the one mana cost is real nice if this effect is needed on a turn you're "going off." Most of the time I'd still rather have a pyroclasm or starstorm, though.
I can see a case for it to be good in real graveyard-centric decks, but these aren't very prevalent in my cube so maybe that's part of why my experience is quite different than most here.
This is my experience, however, and I'm hoping to be convinced otherwise, because I think it's a real cool card, and it CAN be powerful, so please, if people could give some specifics as to decklists that want the card and what kind of board situations you want to play it - and especially the standard "mundane" uses, because the nut plays with it are usually recognizable.
KBH, I kinda hear what you're saying...I think FTK is probably worse in most red aggro decks than red's other 4-drop options, but I don't think it's usually bad in aggro, and it's better than the other options in non-aggro decks, so that's where I think its value really comes from.
One 3-mana card that's (part) green that I've recently begun testing with some really positive results is Burning-Tree Shaman. With planeswalkers running around everywhere this is a card that can really punish that strategy (especially redirecting the damage at that planeswalker). I don't know how stacked others feel their gruul section is, but I like him.
Reading this thread makes me want to reconsider Leatherback Baloth. Obviously it brings the beef, however how often will its mana cost be too prohibitive for a turn 3 play?
-rexx
EDIT: I run Borderland Ranger and Civic Wayfinder -- they're both awesome!!
- I still think the Rampant Growth comparison is not just unfair, but awful. I wouldn't run Shock or Lava Darts in the red decks I build, but I run Burst Lightning and Mogg Fanatic all the time. Marginal value, even when it comes up 10-20% of the time significantly alters a cards value.
I think that the vast majority of the time that you're deckbuilding, if you decide that Sakura-Tribe Elder is going in your deck, the primary reason is because you are willing to invest 1G and a card to ramp your mana by one. Yes, its marginal value is what makes it superior to Rampant Growth, but they both do the primary job equally well. Because, if you're just playing the STE for its marginal value, then you're paying 1G for a 1/1 and that's horrible. It is conceivable that your deck has plenty of mana ramp spells already and you decide to cut one of them, and Growth might be the worst, but I think those situations don't happen that often...in my ramp decks I usually want all the ramp spells I draft (but this may be my mistake...I don't routinely 3-0 drafts with my ramp decks :tongue:)
I think the Burst Lightning is a little unfair because both options are burn, just different levels. However, for my group at least, the comparison between Lava Dart and Mogg Fanatic feels appropriate - I don't run Dart, and Mogg Fanatic has only a 25% main deck inclusion rate, and might not survive my cube much longer.
I missed the beginning of this thread, but I think that overall I agree with you, Jeff, that STE and Rampant Growth are very similar in the slot that they fill in the deck. I run both in my 630 card cube and they're both very popular with a very close MD% (both real close to 87%).
I think what this brings to the table is, although STE is clearly better than Growth, if your deck doesn't want Rampant Growth, it probably doesn't want STE.
(I like Harrow more than Cultivate, too, in most decks)
I think that's why he specifically mentioned Mind Control and Persuasion, as most cubes run Control Magic and Treachery, the other two are basically 2nd tier "control magic" effects, and if this card is significantly worse than those...
But this card does seem somewhat interesting...nice that it does hit Alpha duals and shocklands. I'll keep an eye out for this card and might try it out if I get my hands on one.
Don't forget about the 1 you take in order to equip it, so you're up to 5 damage it's dealing. Also, to ensure gaining counters on the Jitte you'd have to be attacking as well, so that should allow the BTS to get at least one attack in on you as well, so you're either blocking a 3/4 and probably losing a creature or taking another 3 damage and that brings the total to 8. I don't think Snuff Out or Dismember would be played if they cost 8 life or 5 life and a creature.
I dunno man, I think it's great against Jitte. Outside of flat-out removal, what's better against Jitte than this guy?
-rexx
-rexx
-rexx
First of all, here's my cube philosophy:
I'm looking to create a powerful and fun draft format, especially designed for 4-8 player booster drafts. I want there to be options for all different levels of playskill. For me, that means having, for the most part, a creature-based cube where there are playable midrange cards in every color, while allowing for control and aggro options and several build-around-me cards.
The number of cards in each of my colors (and multicolor combinations) are not perfectly balanced, but having a variance of < 5 cards per color in a 630 card cube doesn't really favor one color over another. That said, I don't limit the number of multicolor cards in my cube - it's more about if the card itself is good enough for cube, I'll try to find a way to make it fit. If there is a better monocolored option, the multicolor card will probably not cut it.
Another reason I'm not so concerned with being exactly even between each color is that, with very few exceptions (Crystal Shard and Vedalken Shackles) the cards are classified how they are printed, not how they play - that means Momentary Blink and Lingering Souls are White, and not Azorius or Orzhov, and Spectral Procession and Exalted Angel are found under converted mana cost 6 and not 3. I've found it's just the easiest way for me to sort the cards without confusion. Mono-colored lands are found in the colored sections. If any 2-color dual land were to be added and not added as a cycle, they'd be in the respective guild sections.
My personal preferences will show through of course, for example, I really like clones, so there's a bunch of both of those here.
Enough with the blah blah, let's look at some cards!
Lands
1 Cathedral of War
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Rishadan Port
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Strip Mine
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
Duals
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
Fetches
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
M10-Style Duals
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Orzhov Basillica
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Boros Garrison
Worldwake Manlands
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stirring Wildwood
Multicolor
1 Aven Mimeomancer
1 Detention Sphere
1 Geist of St. Traft
1 Grand Arbiter Agustin IV
1 Venser the Sojourner
Dimir
1 Evil Twin
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Psychatog
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
Rakdos
1 Bituminous Blast
1 Dreadbore
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Rakdos Shred-Freak
1 Terminate
Gruul
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Dryad Militant
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Orzhov
1 Mortify
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Vindicate
Golgari
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dreg Mangler
1 Lotleth Troll
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Putrefy
1 Putrid Leech
Simic
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Mystic Snake
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Trygon Predator
1 Electrolyze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Izzet Charm
1 Prophetic Bolt
Boros
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Boros Charm
1 Boros Reckoner
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Lightning Helix
Tricolor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Arifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
CMC 1
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Mana Vault
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
CMC 2
1 Ankh of Mishra
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Azorius Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Gruul Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Golgari Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Boros Signet
1 Scroll Rack
1 Coalition Relic
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Smokestack
1 Tangle Wire
CMC 4
1 Erratic Portal
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Thran Dynamo
CMC 5
1 Memory Jar
CMC 6
1 Mindslaver
MC X
1 Chimeric Mass
Artifact Creatures
CMC 4
1 Etched Oracle
1 Juggernaut
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
CMC 5
1 Razormane Masticore
CMC 6
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Triskelion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
Equipment
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Bonesplitter
1 Skullclamp
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
White
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Mother of Runes
1 Savannah Lions
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Weathered Wayfarer
CMC 2
1 Cloistered Youth
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Lone Missionary
1 Mistral Charger
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Spectral Lynx
1 Stormfront Pegasus
1 Wall of Omens
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Whipcorder
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Blade Splicer
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Pianna, Nomad Captain
1 Soltari Champion
1 Silverbalde Paladin
1 Stonecloaker
CMC 4
1 Galepowder Mage
1 Emeria Angel
1 Restoration Angel
1 Wall of Reverance
1 Archon of Justice
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Reveillark
CMC 6
1 Exalted Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
CMC 7+
1 Arkoma, Angel of Wrath
Noncreatures
1 Kor Haven
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
CMC 1
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Land Tax
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
CMC 2
1 Balance
1 Disenchant
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Journey to Nowhere
CMC 3
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Lingering Souls
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Scepter of Dominance
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Day of Judgement
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Marshal's Anthem
1 Moat
1 Parallax Wave
1 Ravages of War
1 Wrath of God
CMC 5
1 Gideon Jura
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Austere Command
1 Catastophe
1 Spectral Procession
1 Terminus
MC X
1 Decree of Justice
1 Martial Coup
Blue
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Delver of Secrets
CMC 2
1 Azure Mage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Mindshrieker
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Willbender
1 AEther Adept
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Man-o'-War
1 Pestermite
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Wake Crasher
CMC 4
1 Clone
1 Glen Elandra Archmage
1 Lu Xun, Scholar General
1 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Body Double
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 Morphling
1 Mulldrifter
1 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
CMC 6
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
CMC 7+
1 Inkwell Leviathan
Noncreatures
1 Shelldock Isle
CMC 1
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Force Spike
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
CMC 2
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Daze
1 Impulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Jilt
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Miscalculation
1 Remand
1 Standstill
1 Stasis
1 Time Walk
1 Capsize
1 Complicate
1 Compulsive Research
1 Crystal Shard
1 Forbid
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Frantic Search
1 Jace Beleren
1 Psyonic Blast
1 Pulse of the Grid
1 Repulse
1 Tinker
1 Vedalken Shackles
CMC 4
1 Control Magic
1 Cryptic Command
1 Deep Analysis
1 Dismiss
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Opposition
1 Parallax Tide
1 Rite of Replication
1 Bribery
1 Desertion
1 Force of Will
1 Future Sight
1 Misdirection
1 Treachery
CMC 6
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaveal
MC X
1 Repeal
Black
1 Carnophage
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Gravecrawler
1 Guul Draz Assassin
1 Thrull Parasite
1 Vampire Lacerator
CMC 2
1 Bloodghast
1 Cabal Interrogator
1 Dark Confidant
1 Dauthi Horror
1 Dauthi Slayer
1 Nantuko Shade
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Pack Rat
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Vampire Interloper
1 Wretched Anurid
1 Bone Shredder
1 Dauthi Marauder
1 Geralf's Messenger
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Ogre Maurader
1 Vampire Nighthawk
CMC 4
1 Akuta, Born of Ash
1 Bane of the Living
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Desecration Demon
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Grinning Demon
1 Nekrataal
1 Mirri the Cursed
1 Skinrender
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Shriekmaw
CMC 6
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Skeletal Vampire
CMC 7+
1 Tombstalker
Noncreature
1 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
1 Entomb
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Reanimate
1 Sarcomancy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tragic Slip
1 Vampiric Tutor
CMC 2
1 Animate Dead
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Exhume
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sign in Blood
1 Sinkhole
1 Smother
1 Ultimate Price
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Necromancy
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Underworld Connections
1 Yawgmoth's Will
CMC 4
1 Barter in Blood
1 Damnation
1 Diabolic Servatude
1 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Mutilate
1 Nether Void
1 Snuff Out
1 The Abyss
1 Liliana Vess
1 Living Death
1 Unburial Rites
CMC 6
1 Sorin Markov
1 Yawgmoth's Will
MC X
1 Mind Shatter
1 Mind Twist
1 Profane Command
Red
Creatures
1 Goblin Guide
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Jackal Pup
1 Kird Ape
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Reckless Waif
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Stromkirk Noble
1 Vexing Devil
CMC 2
1 Ash Zealot
1 Blood Knight
1 Crimson Muckwader
1 Dwarven Blastminer
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Plated Geopede
1 Slith Firewalker
1 Ball Lightning
1 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Countryside Crusher
1 Fire Imp
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Goblin Ruinblaster
1 Hell's Thunder
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Manic Vandal
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
CMC 4
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Blistering Firecat
1 Flametounge Kavu
1 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Keldon Champion
1 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
1 Oxidda Scrapmelter
1 Ravenous Baboons
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Thunderblust
CMC 6
1 Hellkite Charger
1 Rorix Bladewing
CMC 7+
1 Greater Gargadon
Noncreatures
1 Ghitu Encampment
CMC 1
1 Burst Lightning
1 Chain Lightning
1 Faithless Looting
1 Firebolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Lightning Bolt
CMC 2
1 Arc Trail
1 Incinerate
1 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Pyroclasm
1 Searing Spear
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Volcanic Hammer
1 Arc Lightning
1 Brimstone Volley
1 Char
1 Pulse of the Forge
1 Rift Bolt
1 Staggershock
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wheel of Fortune
CMC 4
1 Manabarbs
1 Ruination
CMC 5
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Fireblast
1 Flame Javelin
1 Wildfire
MC X
1 Banefire
1 Comet Storm
1 Demonfire
1 Devil's Play
1 Earthquake
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Starstorm
Green
Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Experiment One
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Jungle Lion
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Twinblade Slasher
1 Wild Dogs
1 Wild Nacatl
CMC 2
1 Dryad Sophisticate
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Mire Boa
1 River Boa
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Skinshifter
1 Strangeroot Geist
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Vinelasher Kudzu
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Borderland Ranger
1 Carven Caryatid
1 Civic Wayfinder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Great Sable Stag
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Ohran Viper
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Yavimaya Elder
CMC 4
1 Blastoderm
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Mold Shambler
1 Phantom Centaur
1 Vengevine
1 Wickerbough Elder
CMC 5
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Hystrodon
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Thornling
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Primeval Titan
CMC 7+
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Hornet Queen
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Woodfall Primus
Noncreatures
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Treetop Village
CMC 1
1 Rancor
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Worldly Tutor
CMC 2
1 Channel
1 Farseek
1 Moment's Peace
1 Naturalize
1 Life from the Loam
1 Oath of Druids
1 Rampant Growth
1 Regrowth
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Call of the Herd
1 Harrow
1 Kodama's Reach
CMC 4
1 Bramblecrush
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Harmonize
1 Natural Order
1 Primal Command
CMC 7
1 Tooth and Nail
CMC 8
1 Biorhythm
MC X
1 Hurricane
Whew!
Thank you for reading.
-rexx
I think he seems pretty good overall, and is going to be relevant is most game states. I think it comes down to whether or not you think the mana fixing is right in your cube to regularly support mana costs like this. If so, I'd say he's definitely in (but, I've always valued Clone-variant cards higher than most, I think).
-rexx
Psychatog
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Evil Twin
The last one on the list is a little bit out there, but he's been great. We love us some clones in our playgroup (there's a bunch in my cube), and the ability to kill the original creature is boss. (Also tech if he copies a persist/undying creature, kills himself, and comes back as a different creature.)
I haven't got my hands on a Baleful Strix yet, that would probably find its way in if I got one. UB Tezzeret isn't what I'm looking for as I'm not currently supporting a Big Artifact strategy.
Overall I'm pretty happy with my Dimir section, but still excited to see how Gatecrash will shake up my cube.
-rexx
Hinderbottom is still teh teck in EDH, though.
-rexx
In aggro decks, it's awful. I think most agree here, it's really not good at doing a lot of damage to one target.
In control decks, it's awful. It's almost always card disadvantage. The only real selling point here is that it's only one mana, so you can basically determine whenever you need to play it. But red has so many more better crowd control options than this card with all the pyroclasm variants that actually do what control likes and that's gain card advantage.
In combo decks, it's playable. Because the heart of the combo decks is to win with a specific subset of cards, I find that more of the cards in the deck are expendable to justify such a ludicrous cost, and the one mana cost is real nice if this effect is needed on a turn you're "going off." Most of the time I'd still rather have a pyroclasm or starstorm, though.
I can see a case for it to be good in real graveyard-centric decks, but these aren't very prevalent in my cube so maybe that's part of why my experience is quite different than most here.
This is my experience, however, and I'm hoping to be convinced otherwise, because I think it's a real cool card, and it CAN be powerful, so please, if people could give some specifics as to decklists that want the card and what kind of board situations you want to play it - and especially the standard "mundane" uses, because the nut plays with it are usually recognizable.
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One 3-mana card that's (part) green that I've recently begun testing with some really positive results is Burning-Tree Shaman. With planeswalkers running around everywhere this is a card that can really punish that strategy (especially redirecting the damage at that planeswalker). I don't know how stacked others feel their gruul section is, but I like him.
Reading this thread makes me want to reconsider Leatherback Baloth. Obviously it brings the beef, however how often will its mana cost be too prohibitive for a turn 3 play?
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EDIT: I run Borderland Ranger and Civic Wayfinder -- they're both awesome!!
I think that the vast majority of the time that you're deckbuilding, if you decide that Sakura-Tribe Elder is going in your deck, the primary reason is because you are willing to invest 1G and a card to ramp your mana by one. Yes, its marginal value is what makes it superior to Rampant Growth, but they both do the primary job equally well. Because, if you're just playing the STE for its marginal value, then you're paying 1G for a 1/1 and that's horrible. It is conceivable that your deck has plenty of mana ramp spells already and you decide to cut one of them, and Growth might be the worst, but I think those situations don't happen that often...in my ramp decks I usually want all the ramp spells I draft (but this may be my mistake...I don't routinely 3-0 drafts with my ramp decks :tongue:)
I think the Burst Lightning is a little unfair because both options are burn, just different levels. However, for my group at least, the comparison between Lava Dart and Mogg Fanatic feels appropriate - I don't run Dart, and Mogg Fanatic has only a 25% main deck inclusion rate, and might not survive my cube much longer.
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I think what this brings to the table is, although STE is clearly better than Growth, if your deck doesn't want Rampant Growth, it probably doesn't want STE.
(I like Harrow more than Cultivate, too, in most decks)
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I picked Jitte, wheeled the Mox Pearl!
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I agree...and I do.
But this card does seem somewhat interesting...nice that it does hit Alpha duals and shocklands. I'll keep an eye out for this card and might try it out if I get my hands on one.
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