Thought provoking question ZButNotLeast. I'll let others answer that question as my point of view is very well known, but I'll leave this here - Aggressive Mining. Another very cool card I wish I had in one match up. Oh, and I recently used Massive Raid to steal me a win. I need to look into recording my matches and streaming them.
Very stylish win spec.ops, I'm sure there would be interest at least among us if you streamed your matches since you've really poured a lot of effort and time into optimizing gobots. I should really get back to doing write-ups but I can't seem to find the time even though I'm starting to get back into attending FNMs on a regular basis.
As for Aggressive Mining, I've run into problems with Devastating Summons in my list enough that I removed the 1-of and I could see this card causing similar problems for me. However, many people on here seem to find success using Devastating Summons and this could be something interesting to test (though at 4 CMC the standard 19-20 land count might need to be bumped up a bit).
Only problem I see with most of the cards you mention is that they cost 3 whole mana, and I have always felt that 3 is to much for the goblins. But I'll give a try to the Dragonrage, since it feels like the most "go wild" of them.
Insted of Shared Animosity, what's your thoughs about quest for the goblin lord?
Also, Hero of oxid ridge and pyreheart wolf are a total flavor fail =P
Flavor fail?! LOL Well, they help the horde in their own way. lol
I have tried it IRL and on MTGO and I would advise passing on it. Quest for the Goblin Lord is a janky card that requires you to play the set or none at all. Because of that, it is highly draw dependent or worthless as the games draws out similar to the chancellor of the forge/fury of the horde combo.
Three is about right as in the top end of things. Just don't try to push past five cards that cost three or more.
I agree with spec. ops, Quest for the Goblin Lord is a trap. Many on this thread have tried to make it work and even at its earliest drop and setup it doesn't affect the board position quick enough as it sacrifices the important early pressure we need to put up.
As for flavor, I'm seeing no-lords builds running Vexing Devil and Grim Lavamancer getting good results. I do prefer to maximize my slots for goblins but if non goblin creatures work by all means run em!
I was doing some digging for interesting skelington cards and I dug up a few cards of interest. A lot of these cards subscribe to the "Horde" theme; meaning, you need a horde before you can make the best use of these cards. This gives a false impression that they are "win more," but I can attest to having a horde and becoming grid locked many a time. So, if you are looking for that unique card maybe one of these cards can fit that empty jigsaw hole you have been looking for. Cheers.
I remember this thread about a year and a half back had a huge discussion regarding Shared Animosity (Whether to put it in at all and how many copies if so). I was actually on the side of the argument that ran 3 copies of the enchantment. Yes, it's 3 mana but it's also an enchantment which faces far less removal than a 3 drop creature so tempo loss risk is lessened as unlike creature removal, enchantment removal is less common. However, this discussion was at a time when Goblin Piledriver had not been rereleased and I've since removed my copies of Shared Animosity for Goblin Piledrivers after doing some testing. However, bringing Shared Animosity back up after the creation of the 8-whack list begs a very interesting question: After the Eldrazi winter had passed, we saw the return of decks that rendered the common proposed 2-of deck list inclusion of Goblin Chieftain too cost intensive for the very likely potential loss in tempo from removal. Would putting Shared Animosity in that 2-of slot in an 8-whack deck boost its ability to push damage?
I myself am a little skeptical of this theory I happened to ponder on as I replaced my 2-of chieftain slots for 8-whack with 2 lower cost goblin creatures (another copy of Goblin Piledriver and Mogg Fanatic) to boost the likelihood of enabling surge for Reckless Bushwhacker and casting Goblin Grenade during crucial moments. I've grown very comfortable with the ratio of low-cost goblin creatures in my list to the point where even taking two of them out might create awkward card sequencing situations in my matches. Though I just wanted to put the idea out there to the community.
Furthermore, Dynacharge was considered the budget albeit CMC flexible substitute of Shared Animosity when those discussions were going on in this thread.
Appreciate the list spec. ops, even cards we've already covered in the past are worth revisiting again when newer cards lead to newer decks. For instance, Akki Avalanchers was part of the 1st successful goblin list on MTGO and was used as a 4-of in its early testing in 2013 but quickly lost favor and here I am in 2016 putting it as a 1-of in an 8-whack list since I feel it has a place in there albeit in a much smaller role and capacity.
The part that caught my attention about the Glory Chaser, more than the Renow, was the posibility of having Menace.
Betwen the Cohort or the Manic, I thing that I'll give a try to the Maniac, since his drawback is actually our gameplan.
And yes, all of them are auto-exclude in comparison with the Goblin Guide, but right now is too expensive and hard to obtain in my country, so i gotta be creative and try something else
Thanks you!!!
Welcome! I would also use Maniac as a replacement, especially in combination with Burning-Tree Emissary. Another option is good ol' Raging Goblin, which I used as a budget replacement for Goblin Guide. They were good. Not great, but decent. Good luck!
I also agree with Potroque on Raging Goblin being an option too. By the way, very good point Hidralzki about Maniac being more in line with our gameplan, if I had to choose between a creature attacking each turn or running the risk of not being able to attack I would choose the former. Sorry to hear that Goblin Guide is hard to obtain in your location. Regardless, good luck Hidralzki and have fun with Goblins!
What are our options for dealing with enchantments? I couldn't find a colorless or red answer. Is splashing green our only option for dealing with them? If you splash green what options become available to goblins besides good enchantment hate?
I'd recommend Ratchet Bomb if you want to keep mono red but depending on when it comes in and what enchantments you're trying to take out it is rather slow and harms our similar CMC costed permanents.
Greetings, this is my first time pubishing here.
I have a mono-red 8whack deck, but I'm lacking the money for the Goblin Guides. Whats your opinion about using Goblin Glory Chaser as a budget replacement??? Or is there any other one drop goblin that could be better in that spot???
Welcome,
There is no solid budget replacement for Goblin Guide because a 2/2 goblin body with haste for R is the pinnacle of creature aggression. Though if I were to recommend something as a suboptimal substitute the Goblin Glory Chaser unfortunately would not be it. It's too slow and will only become a 2/2 after it has attacked whilst activating renown from not being blocked. Furthermore, if it wasn't given haste the turn it was summoned that'll be an even longer wait to attack and attempt to activate renown.
My recommendations would be Tattermunge Maniac and Goblin Cohort. They both have their drawbacks so choose wisely and possibly consider going half and half. Whenever you get the money (understandable as its cost is around $40) I'd go ahead and get your copies of Goblin Guide, save up if you need to as neither Tattermunge Maniac or Goblin Cohort can ever compete with how much Goblin Guide can affect the game board. It's relevant on all of our turns and its drawback can even help reveal a nonland card that can give us clues about what we should sideboard for the next game during the match. This is especially helpful for fast decks like ours as we usually try to beat our opponents before they can play the cards that we need to consider when sideboarding.
I'm back at playtesting Goblins (Goblin Guide, and the MonoRed version of this deck in general, is really cheap on MTGO ).
Currently running this list:
At this moment I've only played one friendly league (I'm in the second as we speak), so my findings may be a bit off. I feel like both Frenzied Goblin and Goblin Chieftain underpreform. As someone mentionned a few post earlier, killing a Chieftain can really mess up your entire attack. If he sticks he's bonkers, but mostly he doesn't stick. I'm inclined to drop both and fill up the remaining spots with either Krenko's Command or Dragon Fodder (probably the latter as I have copies of those).
I also feel there is room for improvement here, suggestions?
It's been a while since I posted too,
Last Friday I went to my LGS for a Modern FNM and made 2nd place overall (environment is fun, small, and rather casual [RG Tron & BW Tokens] but I may still do a write up later for the good of the order [Though I just got my wisdom teeth pulled so it'll have to be put on the back burner]). Out of the Khans boosters I won I pulled a Wooded Foothills so I was pretty satisfied.
I definitely agree that Goblin Chieftain is just too expensive and the potential loss of tempo is not worth its inclusion. Additionally, having only him in hand makes casting Reckless Bushwhacker really difficult unless you're fortunate to have 5 mana available. Ever since hellakevin proposed his no lords mentality I've been very skeptical of putting any 3+ drop creatures in the maindeck and have never looked back. The deck operates nicely with just 1 drops and 2 drops in my experience piloting the deck.
As for Frenzied Goblin, he's useful when you've got something like a Wurmcoil Engine on the board ready to block and ruin your alpha strike but outside of his niche of removing a blocker he's just a Mon's Goblin Raiders and we can do better than a vanilla 1/1 goblin. After having Frenzied as a 1-of last friday I definitely felt he was essentially a Mon's Goblin Raider when I played him so I've thought about a potential replacement for my extra 1-of slot.
On the case of Devastating Summons as a finisher I can't recommend him after my experience putting it in. Long story short, I found Devastating Summons was a dead card in my hand more often than not. Outside of being able to kick or surge in a bushwhacker or pumping up Foundry Street Denizen it doesn't really synergize well with the rest of the deck. The land destruction cost is steep that a counter means a major tempo lost, top decking it when I needed a goblin for Goblin Grenade is heart breaking, and casting it requires the right set of conditions on the board making it situational and not very flexible. I understand that Devastating Summons is a powerful card and kicking and surging into it means a lot of damage but for me I found its situational nature just isn't for me.
However, I have in mind a card that's similar and sort of a lite goblin-flavor alternative to Devastating Summons for my open 1-of slot. Back in 2013, the original Goblins deck that 4-0'ed a MTGO daily made by Mongol included 4 copies of Akki Avalanchers. My original list also included 4 copies of them but as I continued testing along with the community we found that having 4 copies of them wasn't optimal. However, I now propose Akki Avalanchers as a 1-of, filling a similar (yet with much less power) position as devastating summons being able to push 2 damage when needed in exchange for saccing 1 land. The added benefit of Akki Avalancher being a 1 drop for enabling surge with sometimes a surprising and relevant combat trick, being an easy candidate to pay for goblin grenade, and in a pinch serves as a makeshift turn 1 play are the biggest reasons why I'd consider it as a respectable 1-of in the main deck as unlike Frenzied Goblin it has an ability that is relevant to our overall gameplan regardless of our opponent's creature count. Here is my updated decklist I'm planning on bring to my next modern event:
I'm always glad to see this primer moving forward between my absences. It's true Goblins is a fun deck to play in modern for myself and many others but it's never to be underestimated as a contender and continued testings and discussions will just make it even more of a force not to be taken too lightly.
@BrandonJames16, but chalice is cast forever one , never two , and if for 2 will be at t4 the opponent , and there the goblins already have the dominated game , not to mention for 2 chalice for only pilledriver and MWM , so 4 smash is the best option , even spree being better against afinity , smash with his 3 damage is great(spellskite cry kkkkk), mainly because the goblins out of breath in some matchs and 3 of smash damage greatly help in this matter.
Sorry for my inglish
Not entirely accurate. I've had a match against Mono U TRON where chalice was cast for 1 and 2 while early counter and bounce spells prevented a dominating goblin board presence from developing. After losing that agonizing game, I was determined to pack more chalice hate. It was a shame, I had won the first game but it ended in a 1-2.
Sideboard needs more answers to control. Chandra is THE best answer to control our deck could possible get. I run 1, maybe going up to 2
I'm kind of digging Chandra Pyromancer in the sideboard. All the loyalty abilities seem relevant in our deck (imagine using the -7 to copy a goblin grenade [since the goblin cost is additional you only need 1!] that's 15 damage. I know it's a long shot but control games tend to be grindy anyhow) and I might want to test it out myself.
He then said, "ok, I'm at 1" to which I replied "on my paper your at, well, 0." "whatever, if you need to cheat to win, well. ok, game 2" I didn't appreciate that at all
wins by cheating and luck, congrats. Hope ya feel great kid." as he extends the hand. Not gunna lie, I lost a lot of my motivation to play magic after that. I certainly did not cheat, but its annoying that anyone has the audacity to throw that in my face multiple times
Ah, the familiar saltiness of the player with the expensive deck who faces defeat from anything that isn't widely played or equally expensive. I understand they invested more money into their deck and that being beaten by a cheaper deck seems "unfair" investment-wise but there's nothing more pathetic than someone who dishonors a win by saying garbage like that.
A win is a win, regardless of how much money the cards used to achieve it are worth. Financial statistics should never invalidate skill in a strategy-based game. Players should feel welcomed to play and prideful in their victories regardless of how much money their deck is worth.
People like this just give off the message "If you don't or can't shell out serious money for this game you don't deserve to play and you don't deserve to win. Only people with disposable income like mine should be playing." Excuse me for saying this but some people are so far up their own ass all they smell is their own bull*****.
Congratulations on your 3-1 Hank, from your write-up it sounds well deserved.
To add to that list of "Okay Choices", I've also seen (and used) Searing Blood in sideboards against decks that I have to remove creatures but need to maintain my tempo and for a version against the infect match-ups there's Burn the Impure.
Wow, now that is a great article topic and extremely well delivered. Well, he used a burn deck as an example and we are mono red so we line up very well with his example. But, we also pack a lot of creatures; however, I don't really know where to take that. But, those two things make us...us - burn and creatures.
As for the SB, I recall some player SBs focus on damage. I find it a great idea as no SB card is truly a waste. But, for the creature one I think that would be harder to fill. What we know is that we need a card that creates a creature and beneficial effect that combats hate. I think an okay example would be: Frontline Medic. It is a creature that is contributing to the numbers and can protect your creatures.
When I think of utility goblins I think of cards like Goblin Ruinblaster. Unfortunately, 4 mana is incredibly steep for our mana-base so it becomes harder to justify running that in our sideboard when we also have Ghost Quarter. Though the concept of the proactive sideboard is a solid one. It also brings up the question of whether or not cards like Blood Moon and Shattering Spree are worth running in our sideboards. I usually run both so this is a difficult question.
I finally got around to updating my tappedout a little, so It's all up to date there as of now. I'm going to be bringing this 75 to states this weekend, and to the modern SGC open in Milwaukee the weekend after: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/no-lords-goblins/
I have been testing the Sword of Light and Shadow in my deck for the past few days on MTGO and I have to agree it is a very powerful card. A little slow across 2 turns but once it is down my opponents have been struggling to remove the creature. I have been equipping it to Guide when I can to keep it out of bolt range but even on a 1/1 the card is a beast. I focused last night just on recasting MWM from the grave and the card is just pure value at that point. Is it bad that I want 2 of them in the sideboard?
Edit: Attaching it to Piledriver against UW decks is hilarious.
interesting! I've been hating that my sideboard lately seems like it doesn't have many threats. this, is a significant threat and damn can it grind!
I've been trying jeering instigator in my sideboard too. Man, it's actually good. Worst case it's a 2 cost 2/1 that pumps piledriver, so it's not a BAD card, but i side it in against tron, jund, and any matchup that can answer my threats consistently and can win through a big creature. I have found that the tron matchup is not actually THAT favored, and nothing feels better (seriously) than stealing their wurmcoil engine for lethal. I really like it, and even though it may not be the most mana efficient, that's almost exactly what goblins needs. Our deck is full of 1 and 2 cost creatures. Enevitably, decks ARE going to grind, we need to have at least 1 out in our deck for it!
Hank, I acknowledge the value and utility of being able to steal a Wurmcoil Engine to swing for game winning damage. However, I feel Traitorous Blood would be the more optimal sideboard option. Jeering Instigator has a great ability, though the morph cost is what drags it down. To be played for its ability you have to first spend 3 mana on a fundamentally useless 2/2 colorless creature and then pay another 3 to morph it (That's a lot of mana spent over time for an ability that likely can't go into effect immediately on the turn you play it and is especially unfavorable if you topdecked it), if played for its ability it won't trigger Foundry Street Denizen or Intimidator Initiate even when turned face-up (in the Traitorous Blood scenario, you can spend the 3 mana that you would have before or after casting it on any of our other goblins that are undoubtedly more useful to the board than a 2/2 colorless creature with no abilities), and it's vulnerable to boardwipes and spot removal as opposed to just being vulnerable to counter spells like Traitorous Blood. In my honest opinion, if I'm paying 6 mana total over the course of two turns I'd like to see more value than just getting a colorless 2/2 non-goblin with no abilities and then a 2/1 goblin the next turn for an effect that can be played for with less hassle and an added trample bonus.
Traitorous Blood seems to do what you want for half the total price against grindy games while also offering more flexibility by being able to be played the turn you cast it from your hand and offers trample just in case your opponent still has some chump blockers and we didn't get our Legion Loyalist on the board.
For the record though, I totally love your idea of taking a Wurmcoil Engine in this way and swinging for lethal. It's a probable scenario against Tron that deserves consideration.
EDIT: The Sword of Light and Shadow sideboard choice is interesting while also delivering an influential presence for reasonable mana and I'd love to hear more about how that interacts versus opposing decks post-sideboard. Keep us posted!
Alright guys, hellakevin's no-lord build has inspired a variation of my own. I've also been quite a fan of Tromni's builds as well though he has yet to post a no-lords variation here. Therefore, I thought I'd keep their deck philosophies in mind while adding a few of my own personal choices into the mix. So here's a list I'm going to test real soon at my LGS Modern Monday tourney.
I know Mardu Scout isn't a game changer but a 2 drop 3/1 with haste could really round out a nice turn 3 play along with a bolt or grenade after combat (Or even a pre-combat casting of Goblin Guide or Legion Loyalist). It was incredibly difficult to justify running Mardu Scout over Goblin Piledriver but I found through my testing that having only Goblin Bushwhacker as an on-curve-post-turn 2 haste goblin meant if I didn't have Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin Guide, or Legion Loyalist in hand Goblin Piledriver would be swinging in for the most part alone (usually only for 3 with 1 additional goblin) or not at all when my board is the most developed (Even though Goblin Chieftain is rather easy to be dealt with; clunky; and costly, this scenario is where I think we take the biggest hit when choosing to take him out with builds including Goblin Piledriver.) My hope is that we get a goblin real soon that can fill in a similar haste enabling role that Goblin Bushwhacker has in order to bolster the consistency of Goblin Piledriver. However, this by no means is me saying that we should stop testing Goblin Piledriver. The inclusion of 4x Mardu Scout is an admittedly unorthodox direction I want to take my build after personally testing Goblin Piledriver myself and should by no means discourage further testing of Goblin Piledriver in other builds. In fact, like I said earlier we have just been given a chance to play with Goblin Piledriver in the modern format and its true potential has probably not been explored yet at all so I encourage further testing!
Aside from being cheap and despite really wanting to put Atarka's Command in my build, I agree with Tromni's general philosophy of going mono-red. Most lands that produce colorless and even at times Cavern of Souls (Krenko's Command and Dragon Fodder do not receive uncounterable or the tribal red mana) non-bos with two of our crucial finisher cards in our build being Lightning Bolt and Goblin Grenade. Furthermore, the sideboard choices of Searing Blood (for creature heavy/centric builds) and Shattering Spree (For affinity and TRON) take an especially large hit by the lack of available red mana red mana. Again, this by no means is saying that other color combinations should not be tested it's just a personal choice of where I want to take my own build.
This decklist is definitely a product of its time and as such I need to offer some more present metagame relevant suggestions. Of course now we have 8 bushwhackers so Mardu Scout just doesn't fit in the game plan of a huge bushwhacker swing since it doesn't stay on the field at the end of the turn when dashed eliminating its relevancy; replace him with 4 Reckless Bushwhackers.
This next suggestion is up to personal preference, either take out 1 copy of DF and KC each and replace them with 2 Piledrivers or take out 1 copy of DF, 1 copy of KC, and 2 copies of Shared Animosity for 4 copies of Piledriver.
My personal opinion would be to go with the second configuration. Having 3 Shared Animosity in my old decklist was a risk I was willing to take since back then Piledriver wasn't as viable as an option (Being that we had only 4 bushwhackers) so I needed another way to pump my goblins for a huge swing. Shared Animosity racks up amazing damage when the field is set up in its favor and is immune to creature removal. Although it can be a dead card in your hand when your goblins have been wiped out, redundant when it shows up in multiples in a game, and costs a hefty 3 mana.
For now, if you have to run a copy of Shared Animosity run 1 and put 4 Piledrivers in there too since it's a powerhouse at a more efficient mana cost. I'm noticing that a majority of Mono-red goblin builds have a sort of variable flex slot for a 1-of. This slot is commonly filled in by cards like Devastating Summons, Shared Animosity, and Frenzied Goblin/Intimidator Initiate. Go with what fits better in your meta.
It's easy for us to take the standard goblin shell: Reckless Bushwhacker, Goblin Bushwhacer, Goblin Guide, Legion Loyalist and throw in some meaty zoo critters for some serious beat down. Because of this, I've moved away from Gruul Goblins since ZooGobs does Gruul so much better.
well, here are my thoughts:
Mono Red Goblins excel in different matchups. Going zoo loses piledrivers, and that is a SERIOUS loss. Piledriver has won me more games than any other card except goblin grenade and MAYBE legion loyalist.
I think gruul goblins (really naya, if your playing zoo nacatl is almost a must) is a completely different deck. Loyalist isn't THAT strong in that deck (I have played it) and anything tribal doesn't make the transfer. I think zoo does benefit from 4 reckless bushwhacker main, maybe even 2 goblin bushwhacker, but that build has too many undercosted creatures to need loyalists. The downside is, zoo almost always loses to burn, it's a terrible matchup. A good burn player will kick back, get in for some early damage, and stall until they reach a critical mass of burn spells. With burn % going up in the meta again, maybe staying mono red is the way to go.
Final thoughts, I personally believe the two best builds are 8whack and gobots. Zoo is a different deck, and while it may be a good deck, I have never lost to zoo with 8whack, and that alone should say something. As stupid as this sounds, Mogg Fanatic is a MUCH better toolbox spell/creature than Tarmogoyf ever will be.
Whoa hank, in all respect I think you're making a few huge overstatements here. It is true Piledriver in mono-red is good, in my testing I've been able to swing him in for 10 on turn 4 consistently but I've also seen how effective Atarka's Command can be in Gruul decks. Pileddriver is great, but it's not great enough to ever justify me to say that because it's been printed Zoo (or RG goblins) is the inferior build. You may not have had trouble with zoo but I've seen enough path to exiles and kitchen finks to give me a tough time (and that's not even accounting for their burn package). Your viewpoint of Zoo always losing to mono red goblins and burn seems anecdotal at best.
Zoo and Gruul goblins offers greater versatility (Better sideboard options and Atarka's command [a card that for 2 mana, lets you pick 2 of 4 metagame relevant effects]) and mono-red goblin builds enjoy greater consistency and speed.
Mogg Fanatic is great when a small blocker or small burn damage is needed but it'll never be the huge offensive threat and big blocker that Tarmogoyf is. For someone who was so adamantly against criticism of the gobots build you seem to have no problem making statements that try to completely shut down RG builds. We're not going to make progress by having everyone stick with what one group thinks are the best builds. If we were all about that as a community the 8 whack build would have never been created as before Reckless Bushwhacker's printing, mono red was considered the "inferior" build. Even during those times I stood with the mono-red build and so did many others while concurrently other goblin players of the community experimented with RG, vial, and gobots builds. You'll never know what the next game-breaking build is going to be until it's been experimented on and tested with. This community is suppose to be that testing ground.
Ok, I am sorry for coming across so against RG builds. It wasn't my intent to be that rude, but I was, so that's on me. I personally do prefer mono red because of what you said, consistency, but there's probably an element of not wanting to change my entire deck just to accomodate a G splash (or more than a splash) which isn't really an appropriate reason for opposing anything. It is a stupid, stubborn way for an old time Gobbies player to stick with his roots . Taking chieftains out was hard for me, read previous posts about that, i blinded myself to the truth.
That said, and now that I am done obliterating my credibility, I do think RG is weaker specifically in my meta. My meta has a lot of burn, and I have tested RG vs burn, and it loses much more than goblins. Usually, because I find myself at 3-5, and I just kill them. With RG, fetches are significant, especially against a deck that's wincon is 3 dmg spells. Maybe I'm just being stubborn again...
Next, I really don't think Zoo with goblins can be considered a goblins deck. Lets say the deck runs 4 reckless, 4 guide, 2 bushwhacker, and 4 legion loyalist. That is only 14, and that is a pretty generous count for a zoo deck jammed full of value creatures.
Also, Goblin Piledriver should present lethal (or dang close) any turn it is allowed to attack. I won the other night off of turn 1 guide, turn 2 piledriver, turn 3 fanatic reckless bushwhacker. That's exactly 20 dmg, and yes I got lucky, but that isn't a god hand. It's a good hand, that payed off because I had a piledriver. Turned out my opponent had an anger of the gods in hand, just needed me to pass the turn so he could play it. I probably would have lost the game if i hadn't presented lethal that turn. Piledriver is an insane card, and when he's bad, he trades card for card with an opponent. When he's good, he wins games.
Finally, notice I did not say Mogg Fanatic is a better card than tarmogoyf. There is a reason MF sees no legacy play (or minimal) and is only $.25 and goyf sees plenty of play and wears a $150 price tag. Goyf IS better. I said mogg fanatic is a better toolbox creature. Options with tarmogoyf include: attacking and blocking. Options with Mogg Fanatic Include: Attacking, Blocking, Sacking in response to blocking, sacking in response to being blocked, being a removal spell, being a burn spell. Mogg Fanatic is more VERSATILE, not better. There is a distinct difference.
Thanks for being open about your viewpoint Hank. I can definitely relate to the difficult feeling of having to remove cards that have been long time inclusions in our lists that have also net some pretty memorable wins (For me that was Shared Animosity).
It sounds like it's very likely that your meta has favorability to your mono-red list. It sounds like with all the burn decks around, your meta game is probably much quicker then say hellakevin's where blue decks and tarmogoyfs are making a comeback and versatility maybe more favored. For what it's worth, my meta has been seeing more blue decks but not so much goyfs (though zoo budget decks aren't uncommon). I think we can both agree that mono-red is good at what it does, deliver quick damage from both our hands and our field.
As for the goyf matter, I probably read far too into your comment and at least agree that there is definitely no way a goyf could spot removal a birds of paradise like the fanatic can. I don't doubt your credibility hank, you seem like an experienced goblin player that has strong opinions on how to keep goblins viable and at least at its core that's always a noble cause.
And for the record, I do believe Goblin Piledriver is a powerhouse just not the greatest goblin card of modern. I used to have a terrible time with Merfolk but that protection from blue has really hosed them good. Even if it attracts spot removal the 2 mana cost doesn't critically destroy our tempo. I've been testing with 4 Piledrivers and I'm pleased with the results so far.
So, feedback on the maindeck. Cutting chieftains was very hard for me. I found when he stuck on the board he could win games easily, but unlike bushwhacker, he can be removed easily, and that really hurts tempo of the deck. I would drop 3 chieftains for 1 mountain, 1 devastating summons , and 1 more goblin piledriver. Yes, I understand, the same arguements can be made against piledriver as against chieftain, but if you read my above post, the upside of piledriver is so much bigger.
I've learned to mostly back off sideboards because of how meta dependant they are, so I will leave the up to you (sideboard is a great place to squeeze in 1-2 copies of Frenzied Goblin). I would recommend stingscourger just cuz i like it, but i will ask you, do you really feel you need 4 magma spray? 4 smash to smithereens? What about even 3 copies of crypt and FB. By running less copies of sideboard cards, you gain more versatility, but you can also lose significant consistency. If Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence are huge in your meta, magma spray seems fine ( pillar of flame ?).
Thanks for the quick reply Hank. I run 4x Smash to Smithereens because it's very effective against Affinity and the opponent's game 2 hate ( Chalice of the VoidEngineered Explosives ) as for the 4x Magma Spray I do have alot of Voice of Resurgence and Finks in my meta but I could probably get away with 2-3 copies. Like you stated though, sideboard is very Meta oriented. If I could nail down my maindeck I could figure out where to go with my sideboard.
I agree with pretty much all of Hank's suggestions, devastating summons may seem odd at first but the value of 2 kicked 3/3 elemental tokens when you drop your bushwhackers can make blocking difficult especially if you have legion loyalist in swing.
I also agree with hank's stance on sideboard suggestions as they are meta-oriented. However, if I could offer any advice it'd be a piece of advice I was given in 2014 by a MrLhurgoyf:
When I was a kid, and I PTQed with a guy who was on and off the pro tour scene for years, he told me that running a 4,4,4,3 sideboard is almost always wrong and you need to find your exact numbers for every real deck in the format of what you take out and what you want in. It's crucial to make your sideboard as tight as possible.
My first thought after all of that is, 4 Dismember seems like an awful lot, 1-3 seems like a better choice. Ratchet Bomb just seems odd, it takes a long time to get it at 3 but we don't have much at 2 so vs Rock variants affinity I see it's value hitting Goyf, Rat, Bob, Ooze and Skirge, Ravager, Plating, Ensoul, Steel Overseer. I don't think 4 is the right number though.
4 Smash may be right, 3 Blood Moon too, but it's important to have interconnected cards that can serve multiple purposes in multiple matchups. If you ever noticed, every modern sideboard is filled with 1 ofs for that reason. Vs Infect aggressively Goblin Grenading and Lightning bolting their guys on your turn is important. Blood Moon should be crippling vs them also, Dismember works too. Eidolon is very good vs them too.
Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule and I'm guilty of having 4 smash to smithereens and 2 shattering sprees in my current WIP sideboard but affinity and decks running chalice aren't letting up on me so I'm quite reluctant with taking them out. But this piece of advice I was given has always stuck with me and I think his points are quite valid.
It's easy for us to take the standard goblin shell: Reckless Bushwhacker, Goblin Bushwhacer, Goblin Guide, Legion Loyalist and throw in some meaty zoo critters for some serious beat down. Because of this, I've moved away from Gruul Goblins since ZooGobs does Gruul so much better.
well, here are my thoughts:
Mono Red Goblins excel in different matchups. Going zoo loses piledrivers, and that is a SERIOUS loss. Piledriver has won me more games than any other card except goblin grenade and MAYBE legion loyalist.
I think gruul goblins (really naya, if your playing zoo nacatl is almost a must) is a completely different deck. Loyalist isn't THAT strong in that deck (I have played it) and anything tribal doesn't make the transfer. I think zoo does benefit from 4 reckless bushwhacker main, maybe even 2 goblin bushwhacker, but that build has too many undercosted creatures to need loyalists. The downside is, zoo almost always loses to burn, it's a terrible matchup. A good burn player will kick back, get in for some early damage, and stall until they reach a critical mass of burn spells. With burn % going up in the meta again, maybe staying mono red is the way to go.
Final thoughts, I personally believe the two best builds are 8whack and gobots. Zoo is a different deck, and while it may be a good deck, I have never lost to zoo with 8whack, and that alone should say something. As stupid as this sounds, Mogg Fanatic is a MUCH better toolbox spell/creature than Tarmogoyf ever will be.
Whoa hank, in all respect I think you're making a few huge overstatements here. It is true Piledriver in mono-red is good, in my testing I've been able to swing him in for 10 on turn 4 consistently but I've also seen how effective Atarka's Command can be in Gruul decks. Pileddriver is great, but it's not great enough to ever justify me to say that because it's been printed Zoo (or RG goblins) is the inferior build. You may not have had trouble with zoo but I've seen enough path to exiles and kitchen finks to give me a tough time (and that's not even accounting for their burn package). Your viewpoint of Zoo always losing to mono red goblins and burn seems anecdotal at best.
Zoo and Gruul goblins offers greater versatility (Better sideboard options and Atarka's command [a card that for 2 mana, lets you pick 2 of 4 metagame relevant effects]) and mono-red goblin builds enjoy greater consistency and speed.
Mogg Fanatic is great when a small blocker or small burn damage is needed but it'll never be the huge offensive threat and big blocker that Tarmogoyf is. For someone who was so adamantly against criticism of the gobots build you seem to have no problem making statements that try to completely shut down RG builds. We're not going to make progress by having everyone stick with what one group thinks are the best builds. If we were all about that as a community the 8 whack build would have never been created as before Reckless Bushwhacker's printing, mono red was considered the "inferior" build. Even during those times I stood with the mono-red build and so did many others while concurrently other goblin players of the community experimented with RG, vial, and gobots builds. You'll never know what the next game-breaking build is going to be until it's been experimented on and tested with. This community is suppose to be that testing ground.
Very interesting, could you provide us a link?
Very stylish win spec.ops, I'm sure there would be interest at least among us if you streamed your matches since you've really poured a lot of effort and time into optimizing gobots. I should really get back to doing write-ups but I can't seem to find the time even though I'm starting to get back into attending FNMs on a regular basis.
As for Aggressive Mining, I've run into problems with Devastating Summons in my list enough that I removed the 1-of and I could see this card causing similar problems for me. However, many people on here seem to find success using Devastating Summons and this could be something interesting to test (though at 4 CMC the standard 19-20 land count might need to be bumped up a bit).
I agree with spec. ops, Quest for the Goblin Lord is a trap. Many on this thread have tried to make it work and even at its earliest drop and setup it doesn't affect the board position quick enough as it sacrifices the important early pressure we need to put up.
As for flavor, I'm seeing no-lords builds running Vexing Devil and Grim Lavamancer getting good results. I do prefer to maximize my slots for goblins but if non goblin creatures work by all means run em!
Ah yes Shared Animosity and Dynacharge,
I remember this thread about a year and a half back had a huge discussion regarding Shared Animosity (Whether to put it in at all and how many copies if so). I was actually on the side of the argument that ran 3 copies of the enchantment. Yes, it's 3 mana but it's also an enchantment which faces far less removal than a 3 drop creature so tempo loss risk is lessened as unlike creature removal, enchantment removal is less common. However, this discussion was at a time when Goblin Piledriver had not been rereleased and I've since removed my copies of Shared Animosity for Goblin Piledrivers after doing some testing. However, bringing Shared Animosity back up after the creation of the 8-whack list begs a very interesting question: After the Eldrazi winter had passed, we saw the return of decks that rendered the common proposed 2-of deck list inclusion of Goblin Chieftain too cost intensive for the very likely potential loss in tempo from removal. Would putting Shared Animosity in that 2-of slot in an 8-whack deck boost its ability to push damage?
I myself am a little skeptical of this theory I happened to ponder on as I replaced my 2-of chieftain slots for 8-whack with 2 lower cost goblin creatures (another copy of Goblin Piledriver and Mogg Fanatic) to boost the likelihood of enabling surge for Reckless Bushwhacker and casting Goblin Grenade during crucial moments. I've grown very comfortable with the ratio of low-cost goblin creatures in my list to the point where even taking two of them out might create awkward card sequencing situations in my matches. Though I just wanted to put the idea out there to the community.
Furthermore, Dynacharge was considered the budget albeit CMC flexible substitute of Shared Animosity when those discussions were going on in this thread.
Appreciate the list spec. ops, even cards we've already covered in the past are worth revisiting again when newer cards lead to newer decks. For instance, Akki Avalanchers was part of the 1st successful goblin list on MTGO and was used as a 4-of in its early testing in 2013 but quickly lost favor and here I am in 2016 putting it as a 1-of in an 8-whack list since I feel it has a place in there albeit in a much smaller role and capacity.
I also agree with Potroque on Raging Goblin being an option too. By the way, very good point Hidralzki about Maniac being more in line with our gameplan, if I had to choose between a creature attacking each turn or running the risk of not being able to attack I would choose the former. Sorry to hear that Goblin Guide is hard to obtain in your location. Regardless, good luck Hidralzki and have fun with Goblins!
I'd recommend Ratchet Bomb if you want to keep mono red but depending on when it comes in and what enchantments you're trying to take out it is rather slow and harms our similar CMC costed permanents.
Welcome,
There is no solid budget replacement for Goblin Guide because a 2/2 goblin body with haste for R is the pinnacle of creature aggression. Though if I were to recommend something as a suboptimal substitute the Goblin Glory Chaser unfortunately would not be it. It's too slow and will only become a 2/2 after it has attacked whilst activating renown from not being blocked. Furthermore, if it wasn't given haste the turn it was summoned that'll be an even longer wait to attack and attempt to activate renown.
My recommendations would be Tattermunge Maniac and Goblin Cohort. They both have their drawbacks so choose wisely and possibly consider going half and half. Whenever you get the money (understandable as its cost is around $40) I'd go ahead and get your copies of Goblin Guide, save up if you need to as neither Tattermunge Maniac or Goblin Cohort can ever compete with how much Goblin Guide can affect the game board. It's relevant on all of our turns and its drawback can even help reveal a nonland card that can give us clues about what we should sideboard for the next game during the match. This is especially helpful for fast decks like ours as we usually try to beat our opponents before they can play the cards that we need to consider when sideboarding.
It's been a while since I posted too,
Last Friday I went to my LGS for a Modern FNM and made 2nd place overall (environment is fun, small, and rather casual [RG Tron & BW Tokens] but I may still do a write up later for the good of the order [Though I just got my wisdom teeth pulled so it'll have to be put on the back burner]). Out of the Khans boosters I won I pulled a Wooded Foothills so I was pretty satisfied.
I went with a rather typical 8-Whack list:
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Guide
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Frenzied Goblin
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Grenade
19 Mountain
I definitely agree that Goblin Chieftain is just too expensive and the potential loss of tempo is not worth its inclusion. Additionally, having only him in hand makes casting Reckless Bushwhacker really difficult unless you're fortunate to have 5 mana available. Ever since hellakevin proposed his no lords mentality I've been very skeptical of putting any 3+ drop creatures in the maindeck and have never looked back. The deck operates nicely with just 1 drops and 2 drops in my experience piloting the deck.
As for Frenzied Goblin, he's useful when you've got something like a Wurmcoil Engine on the board ready to block and ruin your alpha strike but outside of his niche of removing a blocker he's just a Mon's Goblin Raiders and we can do better than a vanilla 1/1 goblin. After having Frenzied as a 1-of last friday I definitely felt he was essentially a Mon's Goblin Raider when I played him so I've thought about a potential replacement for my extra 1-of slot.
On the case of Devastating Summons as a finisher I can't recommend him after my experience putting it in. Long story short, I found Devastating Summons was a dead card in my hand more often than not. Outside of being able to kick or surge in a bushwhacker or pumping up Foundry Street Denizen it doesn't really synergize well with the rest of the deck. The land destruction cost is steep that a counter means a major tempo lost, top decking it when I needed a goblin for Goblin Grenade is heart breaking, and casting it requires the right set of conditions on the board making it situational and not very flexible. I understand that Devastating Summons is a powerful card and kicking and surging into it means a lot of damage but for me I found its situational nature just isn't for me.
However, I have in mind a card that's similar and sort of a lite goblin-flavor alternative to Devastating Summons for my open 1-of slot. Back in 2013, the original Goblins deck that 4-0'ed a MTGO daily made by Mongol included 4 copies of Akki Avalanchers. My original list also included 4 copies of them but as I continued testing along with the community we found that having 4 copies of them wasn't optimal. However, I now propose Akki Avalanchers as a 1-of, filling a similar (yet with much less power) position as devastating summons being able to push 2 damage when needed in exchange for saccing 1 land. The added benefit of Akki Avalancher being a 1 drop for enabling surge with sometimes a surprising and relevant combat trick, being an easy candidate to pay for goblin grenade, and in a pinch serves as a makeshift turn 1 play are the biggest reasons why I'd consider it as a respectable 1-of in the main deck as unlike Frenzied Goblin it has an ability that is relevant to our overall gameplan regardless of our opponent's creature count. Here is my updated decklist I'm planning on bring to my next modern event:
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Guide
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Akki Avalanchers
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Grenade
19 Mountain
As for sideboard options, it's always meta dependent. I usually pack 2-ofs of Shattering Spree (against Chalice of the Void), Ratchet Bomb (against Tokens/Ghostly Prison [If I'm lucky]), Electrickery (against Tokens/Infect), and Guttural Response (against annoying blue spells like Aetherize).
I'm always glad to see this primer moving forward between my absences. It's true Goblins is a fun deck to play in modern for myself and many others but it's never to be underestimated as a contender and continued testings and discussions will just make it even more of a force not to be taken too lightly.
Not entirely accurate. I've had a match against Mono U TRON where chalice was cast for 1 and 2 while early counter and bounce spells prevented a dominating goblin board presence from developing. After losing that agonizing game, I was determined to pack more chalice hate. It was a shame, I had won the first game but it ended in a 1-2.
I'm kind of digging Chandra Pyromancer in the sideboard. All the loyalty abilities seem relevant in our deck (imagine using the -7 to copy a goblin grenade [since the goblin cost is additional you only need 1!] that's 15 damage. I know it's a long shot but control games tend to be grindy anyhow) and I might want to test it out myself.
Ah, the familiar saltiness of the player with the expensive deck who faces defeat from anything that isn't widely played or equally expensive. I understand they invested more money into their deck and that being beaten by a cheaper deck seems "unfair" investment-wise but there's nothing more pathetic than someone who dishonors a win by saying garbage like that.
A win is a win, regardless of how much money the cards used to achieve it are worth. Financial statistics should never invalidate skill in a strategy-based game. Players should feel welcomed to play and prideful in their victories regardless of how much money their deck is worth.
People like this just give off the message "If you don't or can't shell out serious money for this game you don't deserve to play and you don't deserve to win. Only people with disposable income like mine should be playing." Excuse me for saying this but some people are so far up their own ass all they smell is their own bull*****.
Congratulations on your 3-1 Hank, from your write-up it sounds well deserved.
To add to that list of "Okay Choices", I've also seen (and used) Searing Blood in sideboards against decks that I have to remove creatures but need to maintain my tempo and for a version against the infect match-ups there's Burn the Impure.
When I think of utility goblins I think of cards like Goblin Ruinblaster. Unfortunately, 4 mana is incredibly steep for our mana-base so it becomes harder to justify running that in our sideboard when we also have Ghost Quarter. Though the concept of the proactive sideboard is a solid one. It also brings up the question of whether or not cards like Blood Moon and Shattering Spree are worth running in our sideboards. I usually run both so this is a difficult question.
Hank, I acknowledge the value and utility of being able to steal a Wurmcoil Engine to swing for game winning damage. However, I feel Traitorous Blood would be the more optimal sideboard option. Jeering Instigator has a great ability, though the morph cost is what drags it down. To be played for its ability you have to first spend 3 mana on a fundamentally useless 2/2 colorless creature and then pay another 3 to morph it (That's a lot of mana spent over time for an ability that likely can't go into effect immediately on the turn you play it and is especially unfavorable if you topdecked it), if played for its ability it won't trigger Foundry Street Denizen or Intimidator Initiate even when turned face-up (in the Traitorous Blood scenario, you can spend the 3 mana that you would have before or after casting it on any of our other goblins that are undoubtedly more useful to the board than a 2/2 colorless creature with no abilities), and it's vulnerable to boardwipes and spot removal as opposed to just being vulnerable to counter spells like Traitorous Blood. In my honest opinion, if I'm paying 6 mana total over the course of two turns I'd like to see more value than just getting a colorless 2/2 non-goblin with no abilities and then a 2/1 goblin the next turn for an effect that can be played for with less hassle and an added trample bonus.
Traitorous Blood seems to do what you want for half the total price against grindy games while also offering more flexibility by being able to be played the turn you cast it from your hand and offers trample just in case your opponent still has some chump blockers and we didn't get our Legion Loyalist on the board.
For the record though, I totally love your idea of taking a Wurmcoil Engine in this way and swinging for lethal. It's a probable scenario against Tron that deserves consideration.
EDIT: The Sword of Light and Shadow sideboard choice is interesting while also delivering an influential presence for reasonable mana and I'd love to hear more about how that interacts versus opposing decks post-sideboard. Keep us posted!
Sounds like it might be helpful if I post my last decklist from mid 2015 on here:
This decklist is definitely a product of its time and as such I need to offer some more present metagame relevant suggestions. Of course now we have 8 bushwhackers so Mardu Scout just doesn't fit in the game plan of a huge bushwhacker swing since it doesn't stay on the field at the end of the turn when dashed eliminating its relevancy; replace him with 4 Reckless Bushwhackers.
This next suggestion is up to personal preference, either take out 1 copy of DF and KC each and replace them with 2 Piledrivers or take out 1 copy of DF, 1 copy of KC, and 2 copies of Shared Animosity for 4 copies of Piledriver.
My personal opinion would be to go with the second configuration. Having 3 Shared Animosity in my old decklist was a risk I was willing to take since back then Piledriver wasn't as viable as an option (Being that we had only 4 bushwhackers) so I needed another way to pump my goblins for a huge swing. Shared Animosity racks up amazing damage when the field is set up in its favor and is immune to creature removal. Although it can be a dead card in your hand when your goblins have been wiped out, redundant when it shows up in multiples in a game, and costs a hefty 3 mana.
For now, if you have to run a copy of Shared Animosity run 1 and put 4 Piledrivers in there too since it's a powerhouse at a more efficient mana cost. I'm noticing that a majority of Mono-red goblin builds have a sort of variable flex slot for a 1-of. This slot is commonly filled in by cards like Devastating Summons, Shared Animosity, and Frenzied Goblin/Intimidator Initiate. Go with what fits better in your meta.
Thanks for being open about your viewpoint Hank. I can definitely relate to the difficult feeling of having to remove cards that have been long time inclusions in our lists that have also net some pretty memorable wins (For me that was Shared Animosity).
It sounds like it's very likely that your meta has favorability to your mono-red list. It sounds like with all the burn decks around, your meta game is probably much quicker then say hellakevin's where blue decks and tarmogoyfs are making a comeback and versatility maybe more favored. For what it's worth, my meta has been seeing more blue decks but not so much goyfs (though zoo budget decks aren't uncommon). I think we can both agree that mono-red is good at what it does, deliver quick damage from both our hands and our field.
As for the goyf matter, I probably read far too into your comment and at least agree that there is definitely no way a goyf could spot removal a birds of paradise like the fanatic can. I don't doubt your credibility hank, you seem like an experienced goblin player that has strong opinions on how to keep goblins viable and at least at its core that's always a noble cause.
And for the record, I do believe Goblin Piledriver is a powerhouse just not the greatest goblin card of modern. I used to have a terrible time with Merfolk but that protection from blue has really hosed them good. Even if it attracts spot removal the 2 mana cost doesn't critically destroy our tempo. I've been testing with 4 Piledrivers and I'm pleased with the results so far.
I agree with pretty much all of Hank's suggestions, devastating summons may seem odd at first but the value of 2 kicked 3/3 elemental tokens when you drop your bushwhackers can make blocking difficult especially if you have legion loyalist in swing.
I also agree with hank's stance on sideboard suggestions as they are meta-oriented. However, if I could offer any advice it'd be a piece of advice I was given in 2014 by a MrLhurgoyf:
Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule and I'm guilty of having 4 smash to smithereens and 2 shattering sprees in my current WIP sideboard but affinity and decks running chalice aren't letting up on me so I'm quite reluctant with taking them out. But this piece of advice I was given has always stuck with me and I think his points are quite valid.
Whoa hank, in all respect I think you're making a few huge overstatements here. It is true Piledriver in mono-red is good, in my testing I've been able to swing him in for 10 on turn 4 consistently but I've also seen how effective Atarka's Command can be in Gruul decks. Pileddriver is great, but it's not great enough to ever justify me to say that because it's been printed Zoo (or RG goblins) is the inferior build. You may not have had trouble with zoo but I've seen enough path to exiles and kitchen finks to give me a tough time (and that's not even accounting for their burn package). Your viewpoint of Zoo always losing to mono red goblins and burn seems anecdotal at best.
Zoo and Gruul goblins offers greater versatility (Better sideboard options and Atarka's command [a card that for 2 mana, lets you pick 2 of 4 metagame relevant effects]) and mono-red goblin builds enjoy greater consistency and speed.
Mogg Fanatic is great when a small blocker or small burn damage is needed but it'll never be the huge offensive threat and big blocker that Tarmogoyf is. For someone who was so adamantly against criticism of the gobots build you seem to have no problem making statements that try to completely shut down RG builds. We're not going to make progress by having everyone stick with what one group thinks are the best builds. If we were all about that as a community the 8 whack build would have never been created as before Reckless Bushwhacker's printing, mono red was considered the "inferior" build. Even during those times I stood with the mono-red build and so did many others while concurrently other goblin players of the community experimented with RG, vial, and gobots builds. You'll never know what the next game-breaking build is going to be until it's been experimented on and tested with. This community is suppose to be that testing ground.