MTG Salvation

Quote from nonbomb »

Quote from ElliotRSmith »

For decklist reference:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106371

@tiago Yah the wayfarer is a non-bo with arbiter out, I generally just fetch up as much GQ/Tec Edge as I can then lay down the arbiter/mindcensor when I need to start making a move.

@nonbomb The only blue in the deck is spellskite's activation, wayfarer also can help search it out. The coast is in there just to negate the life loss of spellskite, while maintaining a turn 1 white drop play. Out of glacial fortress, fountain and coast, the coast is the only one that fits the bill(negating life loss and fast land).
THC is good, but legacy is a different format, even wing mare has seen play as a 4 of. But modern is a bolt heavy field, if it wasn't, things like revoker,wingmare and THC would indeed be very good, but since there are so many one mana removal spells it's a huge loss of tempo. Imo splicer hedge's bets and taxes opponents removal/gives us huge potential card advantage, which I feel is better.

yes, but it seems like the actual percentage of drawing the coast on t1-3 is pretty low, and that's why I was thinking that fortress or fountain might be more appropriate for its function since i guess that most of the time you would want it to enter untapped, and probably later in game as well, in which case i would probably go for the fortress. I'm not a huge fan of the one of fastlands, so might just be my biased opinion.
If you haven't tried thc yet, give it a go, she's much stronger than at first glance, staple esc for the deck in my opinion. Happy to see you putting up some results!

Fastlands are great in decks with low land count, especially in decks that sacrifice their own lands like D&T.

Off topic: Snoop Dogg approves your post.

Quote from Chalupacabra »

Quote from Jendo87 »

Sadly in BW I agree, thats why I like GW, you get access to some great cards that stop discard mechanics and produce a creature, or just dont die to the 2 damage

???

WB, especially the Eldrazi version, dominates the Jund matchup. It takes much more cautious play to win with WG. Especially since the addition of Selfless Spirit discard tends to be pointless in the long run.

Don't get me wrong. I think WG is fantastic; but seeing the recent abundance of Jund, Infect, and Dredge; I can't help thinking that WB has the edge again.

If you make the decision to splash, and recent results have shown choosing not to do so is just fine, B tends to be stronger pre-board vs graveyard strategies and creature-driven aggro via extra removal. This makes it exceptionally good against Jund.

G brings a lot of speed, and tends to overrun midrange, combo, and control while keeping pace with the fast decks. While I definitely appreciate the highly abuseable nature of Eternal Witness, I'd much rather have the tools that B provides to hamstring them and pick them apart.

You really can't go wrong with either, however.

Quote from rothgar13 »

I find it shocking that this is even an argument, to be honest you. Mosey on over to the Merfolk thread (which is the other tiered deck running Vial), and there it's common knowledge. Furthermore, the results back up the strategy - most statistical analyses of the Merfolk-Jund matchup (MTGGoldfish did one last year, and a more recent one was posted on the thread) have it hovering around 60-40 in Merfolk's favor. Now, D&T might not quite be capable of that (because Merfolk is generally better suited to the beat-face aggro game), but I have strong data to show that siding out Vial is the correct choice.

Vial does very different things in each archetype. Merfolk uses it to accelerate, while this deck utilizes it to abuse comes into play effects.

In Merfolk, cutting it is a no-brainer. All you're giving up is speed and a few combat tricks.

In D&T, Æther Vial increases your ability to control the game. Deciding to pull Vial has an extreme effect on this deck, limiting its ability to interact. I can understand the desire to hold onto that flexibility.

That said, when we're grinding off the top of our deck in this matchup, we need every bit of value we can get, and a late-game topdeck Vial can be the determining factor in a close, grindy match.

Merfolk doesn't beat jund because of Æther Vial, but because it draws cards with Silvergill Adept, it gets out of bolt range with Lord of Atlantis, Master of the Pearl Trident and Merrow Reejerey, screwing their mana with Reejerey + Spreading Seas (which also doubles up making them sad in combat) and ignoring removal with Kira, Great Glass-Spinner. The entire deck is aggro while getting value off people that want to interact with them. They even out tempo you with Vapor Snag, Dismember and Spell Pierce. It has very little to do with Vial itself, although it's true that having a vial out helps. The deck's synergies override most of jund plans on their own, that's why deck is stronger.

For very similar reasons (although extremely different in card effects/rules) BW is the strongest build against Jund. The built-in synergies lead the jund player to fall behind on tempo so hard they can't recover in time to win. In BW Taxes you have Tidehollow Sculler, giving you perfect information on how to play out most effectively and also forces them to follow your lead on how to play their spells (especially how they secuence their removal), or Dark Confidant to even tax removal harder (if they don't kill it fast you will out draw them). The biggest problem Jund has when facing BW (in my experience) is that they are taxed on GB colors (as if they don't fetch R they just lose), you tax their removal (all your 2 drops require removal ASAP or the tempo loss is REAL) and your 3 drops hit them really hard. The difference between Merfolk and BW Taxes in the MU is that Merfolk excels at making their removal bad while beating down fast and very efficiently, while BW Taxes excels at bottlenecking their spells, screwing their mana and make the removal underperform, while beating down somewhat slow but efficiently. Both decks have a huge tempo swing against Jund, and that's the reason why they beat it so consistently. Æther Vial helps a lot, but it's not the reason the decks have an edge.

Siding out Vial on the Draw it not the worst, but also not the best. If you're playing BW You'll have a lot of artifacts for them to Kolaghan's Command. But the fear is not Kommand taking your vial or your Sculler, the fear is that they get to cast it effectively and 2 for 1 you in the worst possible scenario: killing 2 creatures, or sculler and a vial retrieving more removal, and the like. When you're on the play it will likely happen for them to Kommand you, but then you have the tools to out-draw them or to make it impossible to happen. The fact that they will likely tap out to do that gives you the edge of destroying their manabase in response and hold them off casting Goyfs and Scoozes to bury you.
If you're playing GW it's fine to side out vial if you have Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise, you'll be able to drop a bunch of very efficient threats and provide CA in the form of Voice of Resurgence, Eternal Witness, Loxodon Smiter/Wilt-Leaf Liege.

The problem with jund isn't vial or no vial, the problem is not getting to screw them in turns 2/4 and let them jund you. The problem with jund is not being able to assess if your opening 7 will be able to do the job.

Quote from calvinNhobbes »

Quote from Jendo87 »

I just feel like it is a massive trap card, that needs to be known for people coming in here and thinking it can stand up to the tier 1-2 decks by itself, sadly for 3 mana, it struggles, unless you're covered in bushwhacker zoo, even then you might be dead before you can drop it.

And I just feel that people have to know that blade splicer is in fact a great card (as past AND recent results prove) that CAN stand up to tier 1-2 decks. No card stands alone by itself. It is all about how you build your deck and the other supporting cards.

The Cheese Stands Alone.

Jokes aside, I think it is a mistake to either overvalue or undervalue any card in the shell. As long as it works in your metagame and fits your gameplan it's fine to play any card.
I also would like to vote on moving on from discussing this card (at least the people that have been discussing it, myself included), as it's driving nowhere and likely won't change people's mind about it (to splice or not to splice: that is the question).

Quote from TheMcFearless »

What I'm most concerned, though, is with the cards we should side out against Dredge.

I usually side out 12 cards and bring in 13 cards, playing 61 cards against them, it has paid off.

Side out:


Side in:


It's a lot of changing, but it's a MU where we can't win G1 about %99.99 percent of the time. G2 and 3 I aggressively mulligan into a RiP or Cage and go from there. It's the worst MU we have as mana denial is not only slow but ineffective (Try to fight off Life from the Loam + Dakmor Salvage? No, thanks!). The best cards in the MU are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Vryn Wingmare, Brimaz, King of Oreskos and the all star is Mirran Crusader (as always, crusader does not disappoint).
We're definitely NOT the beatdown in the match up, so going full on control or tempo-ish (in the sense that the cards I bring in are meant to delay them until I can cut em off GY) is mandatory for me. Trading creatures is not necessary until the point where they can kill you in the next attack or if they dealt with your RiP/Cage and a Conflagrate is coming post combat. It's a race you can win if you can delay them enough with the hate, but if you're not hating them with Cage/Rip you're likely not to get there.

Things to remember in the MU:

• Grafdigger's Cage is the best piece of hate. I'ts 1 CMC and it will buy yourself enough time to win with no troubles.
• They play Thoughtseize, so Rest in Peace and Cage (if you're on the draw) can be not enough (therefore all the other hate I bring, need to get as many draw steps as possible).
• They play Engineered Explosives, this is the reason I leave in Tidehollow Sculler, as taking this off their hand (or Life From the Loam) is just great. This works with RiP, as a Cage will likely be hated on T1 anyway.
• Path to Exile needs to be directed almost always to Prized Amalgam, as Bloodghast can't block and is easily dealt with.
• Sword of Fire and Ice is a god in the MU as except for ghast all their creatures are blue, and ghast can't block anyway. It also shoots all the little dudes or gets the race in our favor, and it also makes the dude you equip Conflagrate-proof. The downside for this is that playing Thalia and Wingmare it can get awkward and it's most likely too slow to work. I thought it was work mentioning, but I wouldn't recommend it postboard.
• Burrenton Forge-Tender wrecks their combat aftermath by blanking Conflagrate. This is especially sweet with a Vial on 1 (if the context allows). Side note: I'd never keep a BFT in hand and force a Vial to keep on 1.
• If you ever get to play mana denial, go for G. As forcing them to have Life from the Loam in hand hurts their conflagrates and mana density.

The thing about Magic Online is that you can use it to play PPTQs and RPTQs (even if you won the invite through a paper event).

Quote from LtGlitter »

Quote from rothgar13 »

Ethersworn Canonist has a place in the rotation, usually as a sideboard card against combo decks like Ad Nauseam. That's the role I'd run it in.

Thalia effects are better vs. ad naus, Canonist doesn't stop them from winning since they can just slaughter pact once they feel like they can win.

No, she's great against Ad Nauseam because in addition to the fast clock we put on them while taxing mana and/or making spells cost more they can't go for it when they stack their spells:

Casts Ad Nauseam, retains priority and casts Angel's Grace
Grace resolves, and you respond to AN by activating Vial and getting in Ethersworn Canonist. Ad Nauseam resolves and they can only pay so much life, as they won't be able to cast the pact the same turn and they can die if they draw their library without a Pyrexian Unlife out. If they do draw their decks, they put themselves at 10 life and risking the entire win by passing the turn to us. Dealing 10 damage to an opponent who only has 1/3 in 60 removal spells is easy as they will never be able to nauseam you before turns 6/8 (and that's if you're taxing slow).
Canonist is great against Bring to Light Scapeshift, as you can vial it in when they cast BTL and they will never be able to cast what they find (if they're bad enough to find anything).

The biggest problem of Canonist (at least in my deck) is that she competes for Grafdigger's Cage slots, and that's a battle she'll never win (in this metagame).

Quote from dsmonsta »

Don't try to take them off green as it's an uphill battle. The jund manabase is vulnerable to red color screw as this gets around almost all their removal. When our team stays on the board, we win.

Also use creatures that are resistant to their removal. Loxodon smiter survives bolt and is played for free off Lilliana. Wilt-leaf liege is the same. Finks comes back from removal and blocks profitably. Voice of resurgence leaves a must kill body when it dies. Brimaz survives bolt and makes extra cats that block goyfs.

Jund should be a practically free win for us.

This. If you ever try to cut jund off a color, it should be R. It's the easiest one to make them lose and it also puts them in the awkward situation of having to fetch for red every time, thus taxing a bit of green in the process too. Red is their best color against you as it gives them Bolt, Terminate, Dreadbore and Kolaghan's Command in the main, as well as Pyroclasm/Anger of the Gods and Grim Lavamancer off the board.

Fight fire with fire (literally) and play Burn.

Quote from Yokai_ »

Quote from darktutor »

Quote from calvinNhobbes »

Yokai,
This is not a budget thread. This is a Tier 2 competitive thread. There is a modern budget forum for non-competitive discussions.

Especially when the card you're complaining about is $12 on paper and $21 online, I mean come on man.

This!
EE is $35 online! 4 EE = almost the price of the my deck lol
BTW i'm not a budget player, I have the whole deck, missing one card on SB(that I will get later when it become cheaper, MTGO prices floats a lot) does not make my deck budget or less competitive.

What do you mean by 'this!'? I was supporting CalvinNhobbes's comment. This is not the place you come to say 'this card is so expensive'. If you can't own it, don't play it, but to go for alternatives go to the budget forum.
Plus, EE is the worst card you can ever play. At 1 it blows up you vials, at 2 it blows up your best creatures and at 3 (if you get lucky enough to cast a 3CMC EE..) blows up your best beaters. The card is an answer to our deck, not a good resource for us...

Quote from EggShen »

Yeah, I'm familiar with how the card works. I'm not saying the card is bad. I'm just saying it's not as good as Cryptic Command. I suppose it's a good budget option for sure, but I feel like all four modes of Cryptic are relevant, potential game-winners in a wide variety of situations. The difference between countering any spell and countering only creature spells is enough for me to play Cryptic alone, but gain 4 life vs. tap down their team also completely favors Cryptic since not only will it gain you at least 4 life (in the vast majority of situations) but will allow for many an alpha strike. The only true debate, imo, is whether getting a 2 mana guy back from the yard or bouncing a permanent is better. I still lean towards Cryptic here, because a) it requires no set-up, i.e. guys in the yard and b) is really our only maindeck out against problem permanents once they hit the field (things like Ensnaring Bridge and other oddball cards that shut us down).

Probably not a huge issue either way as most decks won't have room for a full playset of either...

You're missing the point. Cryptic is a better card in a control shell. This is not a control deck, it's a tempo deck in which you gain advantage by casting your creatures at instant speed thanks to Rattlechains or vial them in, with grat ETBs that protect your creatures and make removal fizzle. You don't want to hold 1UUU to counter any spell, you don't care that much for spells, and if you really need to counter something you have Queller and Wanderer to do the job at no extra card cost. Cryptic command has nothing to do in this deck.

Quote from durgol »

I still want want to make a list with a one of devouring greed haha.

you could put it in the board for burn and other decks that don't run counters, like jund.

This forum seems to be the catch all for Sultai strategies, so until one of them gets the tier rating necessary to warrant it's own forum I am in favor of updating the title to include all sub archetypes.

Quote from darktutor »

Quote from CharonsObol »

We don't auto-lose G2 to Affinity running Whipflare.

I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?

While that is helpful, it's kind of the most niche scenario you could possibly wish for against affinity. Burrenton Forge-Tender covers this problem without making the deck weaker to the rest of the field's sideboard, while also providing an edge against a lethal Galvanic Blast or a removal aimed at your best dude.

I'm deeply saddened that you thought I was being serious. The oddball suggestions in this thread just got slightly too real.

While people are bringing up playing red in the deck I finally did it!

Starting up a twitch series soon...

I don't have a ton of info to share but know this...

It's going to be fun and enlightening. As I get closer to launching the series, I'll fill you all in on the plan. Hope you are excited about this!

-catmix

my opponent ran away before I could find out if this game was winnable :c

Death&Taxes: mtgTop8 Quicklinks

What is this post about?
        Despite the recent meta-wide popularity of Death&Taxes (and the BW-Eldrazi variant in particular) the posted results still seem to be sorted under a number of crazy titles. Searching through Hatebear, Flicker, Eldrazi, etc. results to find actual Death&Taxes listings can often be a pain, especially when you just want to compare the top few recent decks in your splash color.
        This list uses google-fu and short-links to type the "Decks must contain following cards"-entries into mtgTop8 so you don't have to.

Search Posted Wins
The links below are sorted from top-to-bottom following wide-to-narrow applicability. You can hover-over the links here and bookmark them to your browser. Favorite and forget it.

 

• Death&Taxes / / Hatebears      (Searches for: GQ, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
These results are super general and not necessarily D&T. Though, sometimes it's useful for comparing Death&Taxes vs. Hatebears.


• WX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds >95% of all D&T decks (all color variants) while excluding Hatebears decks with decent accuracy (Hatebears tends to not run Wisp).


• WGX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: Forest, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds white-green D&T lists as long as the pilots packed at least one basic Forest.


• WBX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: Swamp, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds white-black D&T lists as long as the pilots packed at least one basic Swamp.


• WRX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: Red, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds white-red D&T lists as long as the pilots packed at least one basic Mountain.


• WUX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: Island, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds white-blue D&T lists as long as the pilots packed at least one basic Island.


• WXC-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: TKS, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds most Eldrazi D&T lists, even most micro-splashes, since TKS is often the biggest reason to dabble in Eldrazi.


• WCX-Death&Taxes      (Searches for: EzTemple, Wisp, Vial, and ThaliaGT.)
Finds heavily-splashed Eldrazi D&T lists by searching for maindeck Eldrazi Temple; this will often miss Eldrazi micro-splashes.

Why?
        I mostly made this post because I got annoyed manually typing entries into mtgTop8 and figured others might be in the same boat. Some of you may already have your own work-arounds but for everyone else, here it is. The formatting is a little over the top but I wanted to grab everyone's attention to gauge interest. (And maybe selfishly snag some likes in the process; Muwahahaha! <--evil laugh)

Suggestions
If there are some important searches that you feel I missed (or better search cards for a given splash/variant) feel free to PM me a suggestion.

Quote from Gul_Dukat »

you just said you commonly go for the combo and get path'd.


you should never combo unless your about to die, or you can protect it or they don't have ways to interact with it. like if their playing mono green ramp

your playing the deck wrong.

Ok, easy there.

First, @PraiseTheKappa, I will say that I do agree with Gul_Dukat that Pact of Negation is not ideal. I'd almost call it unplayable in this deck at the moment. There are just too many cases where you need your protection spell for other purposes. We aren't hyper focused on the combo, but even if you are trying to jam it on turn 4/5, more often than not, cards like Inquisition and Dispel will do almost the same job as Pact (if not better sometimes), while being much better in any noncombo situation. Especially with all the burn decks and blue mirrors running around, I'd highly recommend those two over Pact. Straight U/R Twin would be more likely to play Pact, given their reliance on the combo and ability to support it a little better, but even they are more likely to play stuff like Spellskite and Dispel instead. That said, if you still want to test it for yourself, you absolutely should.

@Gul_Dukat, chill out dude. He's new to the deck, and is simply asking for advice. No need to berate him and tell him he's playing the deck wrong. I wouldn't exactly call this sound advice either:

you should never combo unless your about to die, or you can protect it or they don't have ways to interact with it

When to combo is a very sensitive choice, yes, but you can't limit yourself to restrictions like this, just as you can't always jam the combo on turn 4. Sometimes you try and jam the combo even if you aren't about to die, or you aren't sure they have interaction. Usually, yes you wait until the coast is clear or you are forced to combo under pressure, but sometimes those things are unknown and you still have to go for it. There is no "wrong" way to play the deck, it's personal preference.

At the very least though, have some respect. Don't just yell at a fellow poster for not knowing the optimal way to play this strategy. Be helpful. That's what the threads are for. Saying something like this would be much more preferable:

"In general, it's better to wait for the combo until you have a good opening, or you are forced to try and win before your opponent kills you. Sometimes you jam it on turn 4, but usually you are better off waiting until you can protect the combo, or when your opponent taps out foolishly. Running into removal every time is a sure sign you are being too hasty with the combo. Just take your time, and remember to do everything at their EOT whenever possible to give you maximum control over the game."

That's much more constructive advice for Kappa than, "you're doing it wrong."

Quote from Mitorah »

Quote from cwalumd »

If you have guides for different common matchups, I think that would be very helpful to the community. I would certainly love to read them.

Indeed. I have FNM this friday, and I was thinking of bringing faeries to the table and I could use all information I need.

I have a lot of personal notes. I will give the infect guide first. Afterwards, we will see how it goes .

Quote from Cikan »

(See page 169 taking out the Go for the Throat for a H. Recall in the board for deck list. Very much like the Metillion list).

Bladiebla. Tournament succes!

Well done! Always those stupid semifinales >.< . I don't think that dropping Tect Edge is a real deal. Scapeshift and Tron are still not your friends and I found it overperforming in the Jund matchup, were every removal spell counts. That said, new builds of jund are favourable for us (unlike unfavourable junk lists). Bitterblossom is a house now they run 2 Abrupt Decay. My thoughts about all the matches is pretty much the same. It's great to have another sample going on with the list I have been developing for months now.

I only scored very humble results during the last FNM. Being very tired left my play a lot to desire for.
1-1 draw against RG tron
2-1 win against RG tron
0-2 loss against Zoo Company
2-0 win against 8-rack. I have no idea how 8-rack is supposed to win once the opponent gets acquantained with it. It realy is a one-trick pony.

Also, Darktutor, I love you your results and your considerations about anticipate et al. A faeriedeck should have powerful draws, not such cards. I like your experimental, but competitively orientated mind. Really helps us to beat the meta . Grats! Also love the 4 Lilianas.

I still feel that UB Faeries are reasonably well-positioned in the meta. However, the upsurge of Company decks might really shrink our chances.
----------------

No one else in my meta plays Faeries, so it was a ton of fun Friday to be that guy.

As long as you win you should feel proud . I also have no one else to play and test faeries with. In my country (Holland) Faeries has the highest top8/attendence conversion rate of all decks, guess who played faeries solo .

What are thoughts on Extirpate or Surgical Extraction as a side option? Let's you see hand, can mess with graveyard stuff, can potentially pull cards out of their hand (and library), can kill a combo deck (not that faeries needs help there) - can depower a goyf at instant speed and I really like the phyrexian mana cost aspect. I suppose the question would become, what do you take out that does less work? I guess really, these cards don't effect the game enough to take a slot or two when we already have such good disruption.

Actually, against Tron the cards are nice. A one-off is perfectly justifiable, I would not get anywhere beyond that though. We don't need more than 3-5 slots against combo decks, however, these slots need to be general and good.

Has Sage's Dousing been tested? It seems we run a lot of wizards..

No, did you?

How about Condescend ?

Did you?

Delay?

Good against counter mirrors. However, we already beat counter mirrors so hard that we don't usually care.

Dimur Charm?

Has some sidedeck merits. Can remember some suggested it during the Cruise-Delver Era.

Quote from Gregaries »

I believe might have mistaken Sakura Tribe Elder and Veteran Explorer.

Haven't even finished the primer and I'm already getting trolled by someone's troll account.