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  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from trancekat »
    Thank you, Rach. I stand corrected.

    Ps-great to see a post from you! Smile Hope you're well.

    Thanks! I've just recently decided to go back to school to get a graduate degree, so that plus work has been sucking up my time, but it's all good. Hope you're doing well too.

    And, I guess the bottom line is that if you play Tainted Strike and the opponents in your meta love it, then it belongs in the deck. If they hate it, then it doesn't. It really comes down to that.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Hey, all.

    Just dropping in to say I'm not dead. I'm still on hiatus and have been pretty busy with lots of other stuff, but I'm glad to see people are still enjoying the deck.

    As far as the Tainted Strike issue, I probably would not run the card personally, but that doesn't mean anyone else shouldn't. First, it depends on your goals. If getting a compliment at the end is your objective, then I don't think it's suitable. But on the other hand, it is much more likely to win you a tournament than something like Captain's Maneuver. The first (and probably most important) test for whether I would include a card in this deck is asking, "If this card were played against me, how would I feel?"

    Among many players (including myself admittedly), infect has a stigma attached to it. Whether the discontent is rational or not (I also admit my dislike of infect is purely emotional), it is my opinion that a large enough number of people feel this way about infect. So, that's the first strike against it.

    The other thing I'm not a fan of is pretty subtle and may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but remember, it's all about how it makes people feel. Imagine an Izzet Musclemancer and a Simic Biomancer are having a contest. They want to see who can make a Gruul explode in the coolest way. The Simic Biomancer injects foreign bacteria into the Gruul which causes its cells to replicate repeatedly until it bursts. A passing Rakdos cultist gives this a 7 out of 10. The Izzet Musclemancer on the other hand uses his magic to make the muscles of the Gruul expand until he pops. The Rakdos cultist thinks this is funnier and gives it a 9 out of 10. Okay, that was a really dumb example, but here's the point: a "foreign element" is used by the Simic dude while the Izzet manipulates what's already there. You might ask why this matters at all. After all, functionally, they get pretty much the same result. But the result is only part of what makes the deck work. The process is just as (if not more) important.

    People have funny ideas when it comes to "ownership" of their cards. People don't like their stuff being "messed with." They don't like "things being done to them." When you give their creature infect, you're "taking an action against them" in their mind. When you just redirect or double damage, it's more like the psychological equivalent of Judo where you just sidestep your opponent and let their own weight work against them. That's the real difference. One is perceived as "this was done to me" and the other is perceived as "I did this to myself." Whether someone rationally SHOULD perceive something a certain way is irrelevant. How they actually DO perceive something is what matters and what you have to adjust your deck to take advantage of. Of course, it's very easy to argue that doubling an opponent's creature's damage is "doing something to an opponent." So I won't pretend it's a black and white thing. It just depends on the opponent.

    Of course, the "this was done to me" things are a LOT easier to win games with. It's much easier to beat people when you, ya know, actually DO stuff to them instead of wait for them to fall into one of the twenty-something ridiculously specific and situational traps you have. But again, that's what I think makes the deck cool. The odds are with you that in EDH, those amazing things will happen with a high enough frequency. Using Tainted Strike on a creature and then Backlashing it is preferable to having one opponent eliminate another opponent probably. You've just got to be careful about how people perceive that action and use your best judgment in all situations which could be potentially unpleasant to an opponent by asking, "How would I feel if this was done to me?"
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Alright, soooooo after a lot of thought, I've decided to retire the Primer. There are two main reasons. The first is that a lot of work/irl stuff has been going on lately that has limited my time to play MTG and I don't see that changing in the near future. More than likely, things are only going to get busier. And the other reason is that I play Magic pretty much exclusively online and I can't stand the new V4 Client at all. I will still be responding to posts but maybe not checking the thread as often. However, since I won't be updating the list or playing, I thought it would be best to retire it for now. I may take it out of retirement at some point in the future (I'd really like to do that actually), but that might be a good bit from now. I do plan on leaving the thread exactly as it is and not removing anything. Also, I wanted to thank everyone who has been playing the deck, especially trancekat and Darty17. It's been really fun to play. Nevertheless, like I said, I'll still be responding so...

    Quote from donfuan »
    Plan on adding Nomad Outpost? Could replace one of the guildgates or Tresserhorn Sinks. I also added Mardu Banner to my list, that carddraw can sometimes be your lifeline. Deflecting Palm is awesome btw, only downside is that the card itself deals the damage, so no suprise commander damage kills...

    Thinking about replacing Smallpox with Crackling Doom, but i'm not to sure about it...

    Nomad Outpost should definitely be an auto-include if you own one. And Mardu Banner works as well for some ramp and card draw, so I like both of those. For Deflecting Palm, I would likely replace Captain's Maneuver with it since it's a lot less expensive and generally that's what we want with this deck, especially if we have to fire off multiple kill cards in a single turn. I actually like Smallpox more than Crackling Doom if one of them has to be run. Crackling Doom takes out big guys and I generally like opponents having big guys (as long as they're not swinging at me). If creature killing cards are run, I think it's better to use ones that take out super utility creatures like Prophet of Kruphix that benefit this deck in no way, shape, or form.

    Quote from skorchdnite »
    Yeah, speaking of replacing lands, I filled my Tariel deck in with the new refuge lands for her colors, but I kind of need those since my list plays around with the life total so much. I'm also definitely planning on Crackling Doom for mine, taking out all of the biggest threats on board simultaneously for three mana at instant speed sounds like it fits very well in reactionary decks. Which reminds me, I haven't updated my online list since May or June...

    Have you thought about doing any more gameplay videos for Tariel on MTGO?

    Oh, I've thought about making them alright, but that's as far as I've gotten lol. Like I said above, I just haven't been able to get into the new client at all. However, if anyone wants to make videos and either commentate them or give them to me to commentate, I'll gladly put them in the thread.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Darty17 »
    New spoiler fits right in! Deflecting Palm is perfect for this deck


    That one definitely caught my eye. I'm thinking it might replace Captain's Maneuver possibly. Can't wait to see how the rest of the set shakes out.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Omen613 »
    Won a match last weekend with Necromancer's Covenant played right after a Rout (played at the end of their turn after they killed the 3rd to last player) against an Animar Deck.

    if you play against a lot of creature heavy decks like I do (slivers, Animar, karador, etc) I'd advise adding Necromancer's Covenant because people who have played against you are expecting you to win with the other turn around cards. This adds a little variation.

    Good call! I hadn't considered that card for the deck. Although it gives you more resources, it definitely punishes your opponents for having too many as well. Added it to the second post in the considered cards section. Definitely a card most players don't expect.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from soapzz »
    Hey Rach, just wanted to say that your unique deck inspired me to jump into EDH using my favourite card, Tariel. A while back I made a list nearly identical to yours and have been using it occasionally. I want to remark on how this deck was difficult to pilot the first few times I've brought it out, but that was probably my lack of experience with the playstyle required (I've typically been an aggro player in other formats so it was different having to learn to sit back and sculpt my hand).

    I recently took my version of the deck to a Commander tournament at my LGS. This was my first time participating so I've never played against any of the players and their decks there. As much as I wanted to stay true to the deck's playstyle as being the "reactive spectator", I decided to adjust the list slightly towards a more "referee" type. I slotted out the Runes, Gift of Estates, Reverence, and Thunderstaff for a couple board sweepers, a couple of spot removal spells, and ramp. I only suited up the deck this way based on my understanding that the local meta had more cutthroat combo decks and that the games were one hour matches. When it came down to the games I quickly learned that the tournament brought about infinite combo decks and explosive one-turn-kill-everyone type decks. The deck performed in one game but the other times were rough in that one player was going off with their infinite combos when I was tapped out.

    Anyways, as much as I'd like to continue pulling out the deck and hoping to snag some turnaround wins, I'm a little disheartened to do so in that other players will eventually learn to play around the deck. However, I'm going to keep tweaking the deck to find what's right for me or to just keep the other players on their toes.

    Glad you like the deck! Yeah, it's a bit counterintuitive at first if you're used to playing aggro or being proactive, but it sounds like you've got the hang of it. As for the tournament stuff...

    Quote from trancekat »
    Hi soapzz,
    Not to reply for Rachmiel; I have a little commentary on your post.

    I too run this deck (mostly the same - just a few differences that I rotate in and out to make it a surprise)... I played at a tourney and this is NOT the deck for competitive play. When prizes are on the line, cut throat decks come out. I won on turn 3 with my Karador/Hermit Druid deck. Literally no fun was had. No thanks were given.

    This deck is GREAT, but not for tournament play.

    Yeah, that's pretty accurate. You might get lucky once every so often, but it's generally going to get stomped in competitive tournament play. You might be able to make it more competitive, but it would probably involve adding things like tutors or sacrifice some of the deck's theme. I don't think it would still be that effective though. It would help if it at least had blue in it for counters and bounce. If you can pull it off and make it viable for tournaments, I'd love to see it though.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Never Good Enough?
    Ask if anyone would be interested in starting a theme deck night or something similar where it's implied that flavorful cards are preferred to optimal cards. If there's interest in the idea, that might work.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from FaithPlusOne »
    Obviously borrowing/stealing most of the ideas floated in this thread, but here is what I'll be trying out in my playgroup:

    (Believe I'm currently at 101 cards with 2 sideboard options, so need to make at least one cut)

    1 Parallectric Feedback
    1 Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker

    My typical meta just for reference:

    Common opponents:
    Talrand, Sky Summoner: tempo/tokens
    Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: tokens
    Norin the Wary: chaos-control/tokens
    Omnath, Locus of Mana: voltron and big-x spells/creatures
    Thada Adel, Acquisitor: steal/eldrazi
    Rakdos, Lord of Riots: big creatures
    Uril, the Miststalker: voltron
    Rosheen Meanderer / Wort, the Raidmother: big mana X-spells
    Xenagos, God of Revels: trample/flying aggro
    Nekusar, the Mindrazer: chainsaw (wheels)
    Oloro, Ageless Ascetic: control/slow-combo
    Sliver Queen: tribal aggro
    Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Karn, Silver Golem: mono-brown/combo

    That looks good. Best match ups should be Talrand, Elesh Norn, and Omnath. The hardest ones will be Oloro and the colorless guys probably. Try not to get alone with them at the end. Good luck and hope it makes for a good time!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from FaithPlusOne »
    Looking into making some variant of this deck for my playgroup, so thought I'd post up some questions as I come across them.

    Harsh Justice seems like a possible inclusion even though it doesn't fog the creatures. Not sure if you view it in the same mold as Eye for an Eye.

    Reverence won't have much impact in my playgroup. Wondering if there is some other options for this slot? Maybe Aurification or Silent Arbiter or something I haven't considered...?

    I face Nekusar, the Mindrazer frequently so I'm hoping to add a few cards to combat him without having it viewed as hate or too narrow. Therefore, Guardian Seraph is a card I've been looking at as a cheaper form of Urza's Armor. Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker maybe. Not sure if there are any other cards you would recommend?

    Can't afford Forcefield and I face a couple voltron decks in my group (all hexproof as well). Looking at Story Circle, Righteous Aura, Nova Pentacle, Pentagram of the Ages. Any suggestions?

    Council's Judgment plays well against voltron and can serve as some political removal. Looking for an excuse to run it in EDH.

    Wondering if recursion in the form of Replenish or Sun Titan is worth running?

    Great work on the primer and thanks for any help you can provide.

    Thanks! I actually did have Eye for an Eye in the deck at one point. However, as the deck evolved, I cut it for two reasons. The first is that ideally we only want to play our turnaround cards on one turn if possible: the last turn. However, if you're playing paper magic, it won't be a surprise anymore anyway. The second reason though was that since some of the turnaround cards hurts us potentially like Acidic Soil or Rakdos Charm, we really value keeping our life total higher than the other players. So while Batwing Brume may not deal as much damage as Harsh Justice, the fog effect is pretty important. They're both fun cards though, especially Harsh Justice, so if you can afford to include them, you can.

    One of the posters above said that they were having luck with Gossamer Chains, so that could replace Reverence. While I'm not a huge fan of it, Ghostly Prison would also work. Out of those two, I'd much rather use Aurification. Silent Arbiter is actually counterproductive to the deck because it limits what your opponents can do to each other, and we actually want a lot of combat going on...just not directed at us.

    For dealing with Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I like both Urza's Armor and Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker. I have an aversion to creatures in general with this deck, but Guardian Seraph could be okay. And both the Armor and Seraph will protect you from more than just Nekusar such as some combo decks or things like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind or Pestilence which is nice. You also actually already would have No Mercy and Dread in the deck both of which kill Nekusar as well. All of the above are probably good options. It just depends if you want Nekusar to stick around and hit other people or you want to kill him before he gets going. If you want to take out a card to fit more of those in, Thunderstaff would be the one to cut. If Reverence isn't good in your meta, Thunderstaff potentially might have limited upside as well and fulfills a similar function to the cards above.

    To replace Forcefield, I like them in the order you posted them: Story Circle, Righteous Aura, Nova Pentacle, Pentagram of the Ages. While Righteous Aura is more versatile than Story Circle, I really don't like that you have to pay life for it since we don't have a ton of ways to replenish life in this deck. Nova Pentacle is there if you want to have fun. Pentagram is just too expensive for my tastes.

    Council's Judgment will be good in the deck, but the only things you'll ever want to take out with it are super utility creatures like Prophet of Kruphix which will never deal major damage to anyone but provide the card's owner a significant advantage.

    Replenish might be okay if you have a meta where enchantments get destroyed a lot. However, I'd skip Sun Titan entirely because it's a great target to steal, reanimate, or clone, and you have to attack someone in order to use it effectively which we really don't want to do. Skull of Orm might be okay for some recursion but it's a bit expensive. It will give you something to do with extra mana though.

    Hope that helps and good luck!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Gorillajay »
    I wanted to share some new cards that I've had success with the past few months while playing this deck, in hopes that others may find it useful when playing within their pods.

    Nova Pentacle

    This card is super fun and very effective at dissuading players from attacking you in multiplayer games, while not necessarily making you a target. It allows you to "put the blame" on another opponent if someone decides to attack you. Our deck also doesn't play many creatures so it's rare that our creatures get chosen to receive the damage from the attack.

    Gossamer Chains

    This card is a very effective repeatable fog. I find that in most of my games I'm constantly just looking for things to do with my mana instead of just dumping enchantments/artifacts on the field at risk of getting blown out by a board wipe. This lets me constantly look like a poor target to attack to most of my opponents and doesn't make you waste a card to do so.

    The deck continues to impress my usual pod of EDH players along with new ones I meet every now and then. I'm always having a blast playing it in casual games as opposed to playing it when I don't want to "try hard" or think very much with my competitive decks. My friends are completely bewildered at how I can enjoy playing the deck when most of my turns consist of "land, pass" but as long as i'm staying busy activating my Journeyer's Kite or doing something else, i'm having fun just standing by watching... and waiting.

    Hope you all continue to have as much fun and success playing this deck as I have!

    Glad it's going well!

    Nova Pentacle actually used to be in a version of this deck before I made the thread. The online meta seemed to become more competitive over time though, and I decided to ditch it for something more effective. It's a really fun card though that usually gets people saying, "Wait, it does what?" To clarify the card for those of you who have never seen it before, imagine that there are players A, B, C, and D. We're player A. Player B attacks us with a 5/5. In response, we activate the pentacle and choose player C. Player C decides to deal the damage to player D's Prophet of Kruphix, killing it.

    Gossamer Chains is an interesting card because it causes people to have to over-commit resources (attackers in this case) when targeting you which is something people don't like to do. So it may do more to prevent people from swinging at you by sitting there than actually using it. While it can't evade a board wipe since you have to target an unblocked attacker, it may not be on the board at the moment when someone wipes it. And yeah, being repeatable is always nice. I put both of those cards under the "Cards I've Considered" section.

    Having RfunR just standing by WwatchingW...and BwaitingB.
    could easily be a tagline for the deck and is definitely something only someone who has played the deck a lot would say. That definitely brought a smile to my face because it really captures the spirit of the deck. Of course the "...and waiting" part is the great punchline you say with a knowing look in your eyes. Again, glad the deck has been providing some good times, and I'll be sure to keep looking for new cards as new sets come out!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Macro11_1 »
    Ok, I have been glancing at this list for a while now, and I have taken a look at your you-tube videos and I am compelled to tell you that I really enjoy your commander play style. Smile

    I'm hoping to run a list similar to yours and will post it and my results playing it eventually, if your interested :), though I think mine will attempt to be a pyrohemia/pestilence/et-al package... using things like darksteel mutation to keep it around. And I realize that is probably too aggressive of a strategy, but I want to put a personal spin on it and see what comes of it.

    p.s. I was wondering about your thoughts on Sydri, Galvanic Genius and a good play-style with her?

    Thank you very much! I'm always interested in how people make their own take on the deck, so I'd definitely be interested in hearing about the results if you'll share them. As far as a playstyle for Sydri that seems fun:

    1. Voltron where the equipments double as beaters.
    2. Focus on turning other things (enchantments or lands) into artifacts (and then into creatures) and then playing cards that make keeping creatures around difficult.
    3. Pingers like Acorn Catapult, Bullwhip, Armageddon Clock, Caltrops, or Ankh of Mishra taking advantage of the lifelink and deathtouch.
    4. Any combination of the above.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Hawk7915 »
    I just have to say, this entire primer is mind-blowing and awesome. I have never wanted to make a Commander deck more badly than I want to make this one now, and it has made me seriously reevaluate my Zedruu deck, and my decks in general. Thank you Smile

    Haha, thanks! Glad you liked it!

    Quote from Omen613 »

    I'll have to make my way back to page 1 and check out that section that I some how overlooked. Thanks for the suggestions I'll see if I have anything worth sharing after some battles with a 5 color general running the same ideals as your Tariel.

    Sounds good! Hopefully it goes well!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Omen613 »
    Played my version of your deck last night (won by the way. Repay in Kind (4 Life) + Rakdos Charm (to the Brago deck killed him) + sent four 2/2 flying vampire tokens from Bloodline Keeper to the last 2 players who couldn't block flying (thanks to Brago bouncing all their flyers away.)

    And I started to really look at Tariel and how he really serves little to no function to the deck's strategy and could easily be replaced. But since the other 2 options aren't much better in RWB...I thought about any 5 color general to splash in like 5-10ish other cards and just swap out lands for ones that make any color.

    Green mana ramp

    Can't think of good turnaround cards in other colors tho


    Glad it worked well! Yeah, Tariel doesn't provide a whole lot herself.

    I never wrote up anything for five color, but there is a section in the main post talking about a RWU and RGW version of the deck which I really recommend reading if you haven't already. It's called "Other Commanders". It covers a RW version too. From Blue for turnaround cards, you get Cerebral Vortex, Swerve, and Essence Backlash. Blue also gives access to Teferi's Moat, Cloud Cover, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, and Isperia, Supreme Judge.

    Green sucks with turnaround besides for Storm Seeker, but it has some awesome defensive cards like Dawnstrider, Constant Mists, Spike Weaver, Radiant Kavu, Briar Patch, Privileged Position, and especially Arboria. Chord of Calling plus Stormbreath Dragon is expensive but funny. Praetor's Counsel may help too.

    I'm not a big fan of Edric since I feel like it would just be giving cards away, but if your version has more creatures then it might work. I also don't care for Rite of Replication since I don't like having creatures myself if possible because it makes me look dangerous sometimes. Gahiji is cool and would be the commander of the Naya version. I prefer Baleful Strix over the Recluse, Archer, Gomazoa, Wall of Denial, and Fog Bank since it replaces itself. Diviner Spirit is funny but I probably wouldn't use it since it involves attacking someone. Counterspells are fine as long as you only use them to stop things that would end the game. Or countering something that would destroy your defenses is fine too. You just don't want to use a counterspell if you really don't have to. Ramp is always welcome as long as you're not stepping on your own toes with Acidic Soil. Cards like Sphinx's Revelation that are instant speed and can be played at end of turn seem like the kind of Blue cards that would really help this deck.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Official Complain About v4 Thread
    I miss the arrows. Please bring them back.
    Everything's too small even when you make it as big as it can be.
    You can't dock the stack or preview pane and it clumsily covers up part of the field.
    I don't like the red zone. Make it go away forever.
    I don't like horizontal phases. Looking across the entire screen feels bad.
    I don't like how the graveyard, hand, and library numbers are shown.

    It's horrendous. And I don't think it's just a "Oh, I'll eventually get used to this" kind of thing. It's just terrible.
    Posted in: Other Formats
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This
    Quote from Omen613 »
    What are your thoughts on cards that give opponent's tokens?

    and others

    to help with the turnaround cards that punish them for having too many creatures?

    I generally don't like to use stuff like that for the same reason I don't use tutors or things like Wall of Blood with Soul Conduit or Repay in Kind. It makes the victory more likely but less amazing. In this case, it's not as amazing since you "encourage" them to overextend instead of letting it be their own choice completely. It also makes you an active player who is trying to manipulate and influence the board state (which is fine, it just depends on your style of play) as opposed to a passive player who really wants nothing to do with the board state if they can help it while waiting for the best time to strike. It's kind of a personal preference though, so if it's more fun for you to give tokens (selectively or not) then I think it would be fine to do.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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