I have had tremendous success with a tweaked version of what Monk posted as his evolved decklist. I'll share it later today when I can get a decklist but it runs very expensive ($) countermagic and some tutoring (I absolutely refuse to run Rhystic Study even though I know how awesome it is).
What do you guys think of Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and Sire of Stagnation. I made an entire EDH deck from Ulamog and I think that mill could easily be a late-game finisher. As for the Sire, passive mill in general is AWESOME and card draw is potentially INSANE!
Wow, you're not kidding, you've gone to a very heavy mill package, almost at the expense of damage. The problem with my group is that you don't get points for milling someone out (unless you force them to fail to draw) so it requires a card like Windfall to get it to be lethal. I want to follow you down this rabbit hole but my meta is increasingly competitive since we play for store credit and we're all pretty good players. I've yet to see another mill EDH deck, and I'm not convinced it's viable as a wincon yet, but it looks really fun to try. How do you fare without counter magic? Last game I was well in control until someone cycled a Decree of Annihilation and followed it with Insurrection. I'd like to at least have the option to stop those, lol.
I as well just replaced Rapid Hybridization with Dark Banishing, but I'll probably end up with Murderous Cut. The card I really ever use it on is Gaddock Teeg, so it has to be under 4 CMC. It doesn't really matter, since it's a wishboarded card (and if I'm already Death Wishing I might as well Cunning Wish). I'll get you a full list of my deck and wishboard in a few days.
I see that you really are moving this into a budget deck, which is cool. My deck is not budget friendly, as I run really expensive counter magic and lands. As with anything regarding deck building it's always a balance of "I don't want to be that guy" against "this card is too good not to use", especially with regards to cards like Top and Teferi.
I really like the explosive power of Morality Shift, but it would have to go in place of the Eldrazi, since it would just end up being an Elixir otherwise. I want all of my wishboard cards to be either panic button type cards or specific answer (usually both lol)
Hey Monk, glad to see you're still around! I have a lot of comments/feedback/questions and I figure this is a perfect place to think out loud, since you are the architect of this deck, and I have enjoyed a TON of success off your concept. My style is similar to your core, but I prefer a bit more control and I'm not afraid to win with aggro or Voltron in a 1v1. Here's my problem, like I'm sure you've had tons of times. If I included all the cards I wanted, the deck would be at 113 cards (not including the extra lands you'd need!) I run 36 lands and I like most of the mill package. Instead of highlighting differences and similarities, I think I would like to just list out the cards in question and give a brief pro/con for why they were in the deck to begin with, or why I see a home for them in the deck. I'm not afraid to break from Deck Synergy, but some cards don't play as well as I'd like. I'd love to get your feedback and suggestions on some of these cards and why you love them (or refuse to play them). My league is quite competitive and allows for a 10-card sideboard.
Cards you use that I'm not super sold on:
Memory Jar - I like that it mills the table and it can generate pretty one-sided card advantage, but I can never find the optimal time to do this. Hitting a C-Rift with the new draw is always hilarious however. Shadow of Doubt - I like the concept of this, and there always seems to be one guy tutoring for a counterspell, I just haven't had a chance to playtest this one yet. Convince me? Rapid Hybridization - I get that blue doesn't have any spot removal beyond maybe Pongify, but I feel like there are better uses of precious card slots than a semi-kill spell, even if it is instant speed. Blue mana is at a premium in this deck usually, too, so maybe a Hero's Downfall instead? Visions of Beyond - I dig the Ancestral Recall possibility, but I find myself holding onto this card too often, counting (and annoyingly so) my opponents' cards in graveyards as they look puzzled at me wondering why 18 cards isn't sufficient for my liking... Dark Confidant - I've yet to get burned on him, but I came within one card of hitting my Eldrazi, which would have stung. For a deck with no lifegain, I just wonder if this is doing our opponents' work for them? Phantasmal Image - Another card I literally just received, but have yet to playtest. I'm sure it will be an autoadd, but I'd like to get your input on it. Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - If I'm not able to hit all his triggers, I feel like I'm just wasting time on a card that's not super easy to cast for 4 CMC. He SHOULD be awesome, but I'm not sure our deck is the best home for him. Dralnu, Lich lord - I liked him.. a lot, until my meta adapted and started wishboarding Blasphemous Act and playing Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind as Commander. Now he watches from the sidelines.
Cards I've used that I'm not super sold on:
Future Sight - I always seem to have something better in my hand, but I'm also very excited when I can successfully get this card onto the battlefield. Mixed feelings to say the least. The interaction with Sensei's Divining Top is pretty dope though. Hinder - With the tuck factor eliminated on commanders, now I feel like this is just an overcosted Counterspell. Whip of Erebos - Lifegain is pretty necessary as much as we pay out, with cards like Bob and Reanimate, and the deck doesn't play any defense whatsoever, but the card slot, man, the card slot. This one is close... Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - Doesn't fit the synergy in the least, but he's so broken and delicious. I keep cutting him, then putting him back in because I come to my senses. Thoughts? Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Ok two things, 1) massiveself-hittingmill and 2) Cabal Coffers, plus a Bonus) Mana Drain for me. He does a lot and I look for his trigger everytime I'm milling myself. The trigger is a double-edged sword, since Snapcaster Mage and Yawg Win turn into dead draws once you shuffle the graveyard but I don't want to be afraid to tap my entire manabase with two Mesmeric Orbs on the field. Arcanis the Omnipotent - Card draw is king in EDH, especially when you run broken cards and if you play blue. He's fantastically skilled and if I would ever remember to keep 2UU open, I would probably not even be mentioning him here, he'd be in the deck...
Cards in my sideboard that might be cool:
Trickbind - Combo-fest in my meta, plus cards like Terastodon piss me off. Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - Again, meta call, but show me a meta that doesn't use fetches or tutors and I'll be there, bro. Massacre Wurm - Perma-sideboard for him, usually have to be playing a Hazezon Tamar or similar commander to mainboard him. Telepathy - Didn't know the true power of this card until I played into it, and it flipped the script bigtime. I want to use it, but what would you possibly cut? Rhystic Study - This should be an automatic, especially if your pod is more than 2 opponents. I hate nothing more than NOT playing this, and having the guy next to me draw 36 cards off of his. Exsanguinate - Seems like a legit sideboard card, though it doesn't make a ton of sense to Death Wish for it, lol Death Wish - Sideboard fetcher, but that means you have to maindeck it... Cunning Wish - Again, there aren't a ton of sweet instants that aren't already in the deck, but if I'm Wishboarding one, I might as well hit both. No Mercy - I've yet to find the meta combination that convinces me this is the card I must have, but it seems like a valuable tool to have in the arsenal.
So as you can see, I've done quite a bit of work swapping, testing, adapting, personalizing and usually winning. You've created quite the monster deck, and don't sell yourself short, with the right tweaks, this deck could be insanely good, and it's always a lot of fun to play. I look forward to some input from you, as I've hit a wall with regards to add/drop.
Yeah, I think my meta has grown wise to my planeswalking ways, so cards like Planar Cleansing and even Fated Retribution are seeing play. Merciless Eviction always seems to pop up when 3+ walkers hit the board. I actually cut YawgWin shortly after posting that, but Genesis Wave hits this deck like a truck, so it's a must-add in my book, especially with boosters like Mirari's Wake. I did have the pleasure of witnessing the power of Jace, Architect of Thought+Humility and that was pretty stellar. Against a token deck though, you're not saving yourself much grief with counters and all.
Replenish works so well, because enchantments like Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake and Maelstrom Nexus are must-kills in my meta. I love having an Oblivion Ring and Pernicious Deed return for a second helping of tears. I also run Skyshroud Claim as a ramper, because I use the ABU duals and all the Shocks, plus if you have a mana doubler on the board it's a free cast since they come in untapped.
Ugin seems like he's going to be an auto-card in a lot of decks, this one especially. He's being called the anti-Bolas and Doubling Season makes him disgustingly broken. Boros Charm saved my ass twice (once because a guy played Armageddon after summoning a monster token army) and once because Terastodon tried to take out Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Tamiyo, The Moon Sage and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in one stroke. The disappointment was priceless, especially considering it was against the person who suggested I run Boros Charm!!
Hey, thanks for posting this. I had a lot of these cards laying around (namely the ABU duals and expensive walkers) so I decided to give it a shot. I really like the power this provides! Some games that Sliver Queen is a beast, some games she never sees play. There are SO many options, this deck really requires intimate knowledge of every card you're running. Nothing like casting a Wargate for 7 only to realize Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker costs 8 and you end up getting Aura Shards anyway!
I would suggest Replenish given the huge amount of enchantments this deck runs, plus all the hate that Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake will draw. The other option might be Open the Vaults (which I used a Mindslaver on an opponent who was foolish enough to flash-tease it at me during someone else's turn)
So I've been toying with this deck for about 2 months now in my EDH playgroup. All skill levels are present and the deck just absolutely crushes novice players. I find it somewhat slow to get going, and true mill-only wins are kinda rare. I'd say we have about 70 cards in common (I like the concept but can't commit to it fully) so I will list the cards I have differently and my opinions. I run a lot more countermagic just because I don't like feeling powerless to stop my opponents from winning. Also as a side note, I have a Dark Confidant, but the mana curve here is so steep I'm afraid if I don't manage to get a Whip of Erebos out I'm gonna die in 5 turns by my own hand.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Again draw advantage and you can bounce virtually any creature. I don't even bother with the ultimate and I love the hate he draws.
Leyline of Anticipation - How do you play such awesome ETB cards and not have the element of surprise on your side? The double effect of having a swingable creature on your turn plus a snap defender is priceless in my opinion.
Future Sight - The card advantage here is enormous and when you have counters/flash it really lets you get the most out of the mill package. Especially with cards that draw as much hate as Mesmeric Orb, which in my playgroup turns a 5-man game into a 4v1.
Time Warp - I can't tell you how many games I've won because my opponents figure they have me beaten when the turn returns to them. Pair this with a Snapcaster Mage or Yawgmoth's Will and it's a scoop-fest.
Bloodchief Ascension - This card, lol. I know you discussed that your group hates on it, but it's such an amazing win-con when stacked with ANY of the mill package. If you can get board hate from a one-drop, how is that not a win-win?
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - He's a difficult cast for this deck, but he hamstrings your opponents and lets you flash out even bigger plays. Bad things happen if this card sticks. Plus it's one more wizard for a deck that loves its wizards.
Exsanguinate - I saw that you used to run this. It's probably the best lifegain Dimir has and you'll certainly need it if you play Dark Confidant, even without your Reanimate. With a card that synergizes so well with Doubling Cube, which I deemed unworthy in my deck recently, it's a no-brainer.
Cards that I don't like using: Doubling Cube - Needs way too much support to make it happen and too easily popped. Tunnel Vision - I feel dirty using it for the combo (as I know you do as well), and I don't like guessing games, plus I always seemed to draw in opening hand. Necrotic Ooze - Not NEARLY enough activated abilities to make this card worth a spot. Insidious Dreams - If you don't play combo, you are just drawing so much unnecessary hate onto yourself if the cards you tutor aren't gonna win you the game. This card reminds me of Diabolic Revelation and it's risky. Crypt of Agadeem - I never found this card to be worth it honestly, black mana is usually the easy part. Exotic Orchard - Just... no. Oona, Queen of the Fae - This was my commander for a very long time, but she lacks protection and flying is cool but it's not really my style. I do appreciate the concept of using all your mana every turn to spot mill for chump blockers. Cephalid Coliseum - Combo aside, this card doesn't seem to pull its weight.
My thoughts on this deck: It's quite powerful, and incredibly fun once it gets rolling. There's very little in the way of early game, so I have found without countermagic you're probably gonna get run over if you are mana-screwed or against fast decks. The deck is so multidimensional late game, it really feels like you are attacking with an entire arm instead of just a hand and that's why I love it. Thanks for the primer, it really makes sense to me and your explanations are spot-on for the most part.
What do you guys think of Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and Sire of Stagnation. I made an entire EDH deck from Ulamog and I think that mill could easily be a late-game finisher. As for the Sire, passive mill in general is AWESOME and card draw is potentially INSANE!
I see that you really are moving this into a budget deck, which is cool. My deck is not budget friendly, as I run really expensive counter magic and lands. As with anything regarding deck building it's always a balance of "I don't want to be that guy" against "this card is too good not to use", especially with regards to cards like Top and Teferi.
I really like the explosive power of Morality Shift, but it would have to go in place of the Eldrazi, since it would just end up being an Elixir otherwise. I want all of my wishboard cards to be either panic button type cards or specific answer (usually both lol)
Cards you use that I'm not super sold on:
Memory Jar - I like that it mills the table and it can generate pretty one-sided card advantage, but I can never find the optimal time to do this. Hitting a C-Rift with the new draw is always hilarious however.
Shadow of Doubt - I like the concept of this, and there always seems to be one guy tutoring for a counterspell, I just haven't had a chance to playtest this one yet. Convince me?
Rapid Hybridization - I get that blue doesn't have any spot removal beyond maybe Pongify, but I feel like there are better uses of precious card slots than a semi-kill spell, even if it is instant speed. Blue mana is at a premium in this deck usually, too, so maybe a Hero's Downfall instead?
Visions of Beyond - I dig the Ancestral Recall possibility, but I find myself holding onto this card too often, counting (and annoyingly so) my opponents' cards in graveyards as they look puzzled at me wondering why 18 cards isn't sufficient for my liking...
Dark Confidant - I've yet to get burned on him, but I came within one card of hitting my Eldrazi, which would have stung. For a deck with no lifegain, I just wonder if this is doing our opponents' work for them?
Phantasmal Image - Another card I literally just received, but have yet to playtest. I'm sure it will be an autoadd, but I'd like to get your input on it.
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - If I'm not able to hit all his triggers, I feel like I'm just wasting time on a card that's not super easy to cast for 4 CMC. He SHOULD be awesome, but I'm not sure our deck is the best home for him.
Dralnu, Lich lord - I liked him.. a lot, until my meta adapted and started wishboarding Blasphemous Act and playing Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind as Commander. Now he watches from the sidelines.
Cards I've used that I'm not super sold on:
Future Sight - I always seem to have something better in my hand, but I'm also very excited when I can successfully get this card onto the battlefield. Mixed feelings to say the least. The interaction with Sensei's Divining Top is pretty dope though.
Hinder - With the tuck factor eliminated on commanders, now I feel like this is just an overcosted Counterspell.
Whip of Erebos - Lifegain is pretty necessary as much as we pay out, with cards like Bob and Reanimate, and the deck doesn't play any defense whatsoever, but the card slot, man, the card slot. This one is close...
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - Doesn't fit the synergy in the least, but he's so broken and delicious. I keep cutting him, then putting him back in because I come to my senses. Thoughts?
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Ok two things, 1) massive self-hitting mill and 2) Cabal Coffers, plus a Bonus) Mana Drain for me. He does a lot and I look for his trigger everytime I'm milling myself. The trigger is a double-edged sword, since Snapcaster Mage and Yawg Win turn into dead draws once you shuffle the graveyard but I don't want to be afraid to tap my entire manabase with two Mesmeric Orbs on the field.
Arcanis the Omnipotent - Card draw is king in EDH, especially when you run broken cards and if you play blue. He's fantastically skilled and if I would ever remember to keep 2UU open, I would probably not even be mentioning him here, he'd be in the deck...
Cards in my sideboard that might be cool:
Trickbind - Combo-fest in my meta, plus cards like Terastodon piss me off.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - Again, meta call, but show me a meta that doesn't use fetches or tutors and I'll be there, bro.
Massacre Wurm - Perma-sideboard for him, usually have to be playing a Hazezon Tamar or similar commander to mainboard him.
Telepathy - Didn't know the true power of this card until I played into it, and it flipped the script bigtime. I want to use it, but what would you possibly cut?
Rhystic Study - This should be an automatic, especially if your pod is more than 2 opponents. I hate nothing more than NOT playing this, and having the guy next to me draw 36 cards off of his.
Exsanguinate - Seems like a legit sideboard card, though it doesn't make a ton of sense to Death Wish for it, lol
Death Wish - Sideboard fetcher, but that means you have to maindeck it...
Cunning Wish - Again, there aren't a ton of sweet instants that aren't already in the deck, but if I'm Wishboarding one, I might as well hit both.
No Mercy - I've yet to find the meta combination that convinces me this is the card I must have, but it seems like a valuable tool to have in the arsenal.
So as you can see, I've done quite a bit of work swapping, testing, adapting, personalizing and usually winning. You've created quite the monster deck, and don't sell yourself short, with the right tweaks, this deck could be insanely good, and it's always a lot of fun to play. I look forward to some input from you, as I've hit a wall with regards to add/drop.
Replenish works so well, because enchantments like Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake and Maelstrom Nexus are must-kills in my meta. I love having an Oblivion Ring and Pernicious Deed return for a second helping of tears. I also run Skyshroud Claim as a ramper, because I use the ABU duals and all the Shocks, plus if you have a mana doubler on the board it's a free cast since they come in untapped.
Ugin seems like he's going to be an auto-card in a lot of decks, this one especially. He's being called the anti-Bolas and Doubling Season makes him disgustingly broken. Boros Charm saved my ass twice (once because a guy played Armageddon after summoning a monster token army) and once because Terastodon tried to take out Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Tamiyo, The Moon Sage and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in one stroke. The disappointment was priceless, especially considering it was against the person who suggested I run Boros Charm!!
I would suggest Replenish given the huge amount of enchantments this deck runs, plus all the hate that Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake will draw. The other option might be Open the Vaults (which I used a Mindslaver on an opponent who was foolish enough to flash-tease it at me during someone else's turn)
What are your thoughts on utility cards like Yawgmoth's will and Genesis wave?
I personally run a Boros charm because WOW look out for planar cleansing
Again thanks for taking the effort on this, I look forward to evolving with you.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Again draw advantage and you can bounce virtually any creature. I don't even bother with the ultimate and I love the hate he draws.
Leyline of Anticipation - How do you play such awesome ETB cards and not have the element of surprise on your side? The double effect of having a swingable creature on your turn plus a snap defender is priceless in my opinion.
Future Sight - The card advantage here is enormous and when you have counters/flash it really lets you get the most out of the mill package. Especially with cards that draw as much hate as Mesmeric Orb, which in my playgroup turns a 5-man game into a 4v1.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - With all this self-mill and board wiping, this card makes it SO worth it. Plus with Cabal Coffers+Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth it's virtually a 3-land cast with Swampwalk.
Time Warp - I can't tell you how many games I've won because my opponents figure they have me beaten when the turn returns to them. Pair this with a Snapcaster Mage or Yawgmoth's Will and it's a scoop-fest.
Bloodchief Ascension - This card, lol. I know you discussed that your group hates on it, but it's such an amazing win-con when stacked with ANY of the mill package. If you can get board hate from a one-drop, how is that not a win-win?
Wash Out- Tremendous with either Magus of the Jar/Memory Jar or either Windfall/Whispering Madness and a sick combo with Notion Thief. I use this mostly to clear a board away so I can hit home with Dimir cards as most of my playgroup plays tri-color so it's a huge effect.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - He's a difficult cast for this deck, but he hamstrings your opponents and lets you flash out even bigger plays. Bad things happen if this card sticks. Plus it's one more wizard for a deck that loves its wizards.
Exsanguinate - I saw that you used to run this. It's probably the best lifegain Dimir has and you'll certainly need it if you play Dark Confidant, even without your Reanimate. With a card that synergizes so well with Doubling Cube, which I deemed unworthy in my deck recently, it's a no-brainer.
Cards that suit my own playstyle include:
Arcanis The Omnipotent - He's a wizard and he's great for draw advantage, which seems sorely missed here. Combos well with Minamo, school at water's edge and Lightning Greaves for repeatable card draw.
Force of Will, Clone, Vesuvan Doppelganger, Mana Drain, Glen Elendra Archmage, No Mercy, Pact of Negation, Counterspell, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Necropotence, Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Black Sun's Zenith.
Extremely niche cards that really apply more to my group: Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Massacre Wurm
Cards that I don't like using:
Doubling Cube - Needs way too much support to make it happen and too easily popped.
Tunnel Vision - I feel dirty using it for the combo (as I know you do as well), and I don't like guessing games, plus I always seemed to draw in opening hand.
Necrotic Ooze - Not NEARLY enough activated abilities to make this card worth a spot.
Insidious Dreams - If you don't play combo, you are just drawing so much unnecessary hate onto yourself if the cards you tutor aren't gonna win you the game. This card reminds me of Diabolic Revelation and it's risky.
Crypt of Agadeem - I never found this card to be worth it honestly, black mana is usually the easy part.
Exotic Orchard - Just... no.
Oona, Queen of the Fae - This was my commander for a very long time, but she lacks protection and flying is cool but it's not really my style. I do appreciate the concept of using all your mana every turn to spot mill for chump blockers.
Cephalid Coliseum - Combo aside, this card doesn't seem to pull its weight.
My thoughts on this deck: It's quite powerful, and incredibly fun once it gets rolling. There's very little in the way of early game, so I have found without countermagic you're probably gonna get run over if you are mana-screwed or against fast decks. The deck is so multidimensional late game, it really feels like you are attacking with an entire arm instead of just a hand and that's why I love it. Thanks for the primer, it really makes sense to me and your explanations are spot-on for the most part.