Field of Ruin can be played as early as turn 3 but unlike Ghost Quarters, it doesn't put you down a land. I don't like playing more than 2 colorless sources but this seems quite interesting. Maybe less relevant in Modern because most decks do play some sort of basics.
Howdy all, looking to grind the legacy challenge events at the upcoming GP DC. I have a fairly stock list, but I have also been toying around with a list that runs 4 leonin arbiter and 4 Wingmare. Anyone in here have any experience with such builds?
I never tested it but I've watched a good number of gameplays of an arbiter build. Not being able to run Stoneforge Mystic really weakens your late game - like a lot. Equipment is one of the main reasons DnT beats a lot of fair decks and without it, it doesn't stand a chance really. You can still run them but at the expense of drawing them less frequently. You do get some fun mana blowout games though.
I really like Wingmare. A flyer that can trade with Delver of Secrets and be relevant against 70%+ of the meta is a pretty damn good card. It's not better than Thalia - nor should you expect it to - but it's a card that combos well with Thalia and stacks. I currently don't run any because I'm constructing a more cohesive human build but it's always on my mind.
I'm not sure Mirri is a good addition to the deck. Not only is she difficult to cast outside of a devoted GW build but also I'd imagine Thalia 2.0 does similar things but better. Thalia's impact is immediate whereas Mirri's value is very dependent on combat (and a somewhat situational benefit). If we want to improve out bad match-ups, Mirri is not the answer. Instead, consider Chalice of the Void:
Chalice single-handedly solves many problems. It can actually win the game on the spot against all our bad match-ups (Infect, Burn, Elves, etc.) but is also powerful against the decks we're about 50/50 against (e.g Delver builds, any cantrip/ deathrite decks, ANT/TES, etc.). Death and Taxes utilizes Chalice very well with some mana base adjustments because we don't have as many 1-drops as say, Merfolk, and we can cheat things through Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial. Another reason why it's a great addition is because it serves as an additional turn 1-2 disruption - currently our only option is Thalia and an occasional Revoker. One of the weaknesses of DnT is it doesn't even start disrupting until turn 2, and that's with an ideal hand (turn 2 Thalia or turn 1 Vial + turn 2 Wasteland/Port). Combined with Sanctum Prelate and Magus of the Moon, DnT gains a ton of percentages against decks like Lands and most 3-color decks.
The main disadvantage of running Chalice is losing an efficient removal in Swords to Plowshares. This means you have less out to things like an early Marit Lage token (though somewhat laughable here) or Griselbrand. Aside from some creature-based combo decks, I do believe we have more to gain. Chalice is arguably stronger against Delver builds (shuts off opposing removal, cantrips that strengthen their early and late game, death rite shamans, etc.) and against TNN stoneblade decks, blessed alliance is going to be far more important. Swords to Plowshares is most useful against weenie decks that care to die (e.g the mirror) and Young Pyromancer/ Mentor. Thankfully, this is where Orzhov Pontiff comes in from the side. Things like Maverick, Elves, Slivers, etc. are going to be hard regardless of what removals you are running and you have to rely on your other cards to win the game. My main fear would be decks that run a ton of beaters like Goyf, Gurmag Angler, Thought Knot Seer, etc. but if this was the case, we simply run more Mirran Crusader and Banisher Priests.
So recently someone recommended Mirran Crusader to me as a sideboard option, how do you feel about that?
Although lightning bolt is at an all time low, we are already heavily favored against the black midrange decks. I don't like the idea of getting blown out by Kolaghan's Command either. You're better of siding more things like Rest in Peace which destroys the decks you'd side Crusader in, while also being great in other matches.
That´s kinda what I was thinking aswell. Thanks for clarifying though!
@Jongsl5 I'm not sure what you meant by blown out by K-Command, it can't kill Crusader (Pro Black/Green) as it's Black/Red.
Went 3-1 tonight with the Green Splash version of the deck (including beating Elves and Merfolk). It was a nice finale, but this is going to be my last time piloting this variant before returning to straight BW.
Driven//Despair is a great card for the Tokens archetype in theory, but in practice, it only significantly impacted a game in my favor a single time. The same is true of Abrupt Decay. I got to use it to blow up an Aether Vial... once. Every other time I drew it, I wished I had drawn a Push or Path instead. The second issue with Driven//Despair is that it is fundamentally a late-game card, and by the time you're in a position to make use of the "Despair" half, the opponent tends to have few to no cards in hand unless they just resolved an Ancestral Vision or are playing a Draw/Go deck, in which case it is likely to be countered anyways.
There is also a mana issue associated with such a light splash. Unless you have a green card in hand, statistically it doesn't make sense to fetch a Temple Garden unless you are doing it on the opponent's EOT, and BW Tokens likes to play on the curve when it can, so this doesn't happen particularly often. The result is that occasionally (and I don't mean to imply that this is a frequent event, because it's not), you will draw Driven//Despair or Abrupt Decay without a Green source to play it.
All things considered, this has been a fun experiment, but I'm ready to move on to the new BW version I have been working on. Hope you guys find this info useful.
This is what I keep saying to the green splash people. Abrupt decay is really bad in the meta right now and isn't worth a splash, which is why you see maybe 2 copies even in Jund Shadow lists. I don't see it coming back anytime soon unless you see a ton of Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridges, and Splinter Twin revival.
So recently someone recommended Mirran Crusader to me as a sideboard option, how do you feel about that?
Although lightning bolt is at an all time low, we are already heavily favored against the black midrange decks. I don't like the idea of getting blown out by Kolaghan's Command either. You're better of siding more things like Rest in Peace which destroys the decks you'd side Crusader in, while also being great in other matches.
I could definitely see an argument for running Disenchant for Sundering Growths. The 1 token hasn't been a big deal. Sure a lot of times when I cast Disenchant I wish I had a Growth instead but it's only slightly more optimal. Enchant getting around Blood Moon more easily and just allowing for a more convenience mana cost can be a deal breaker.
Fatal Push is what gave the Tokens the edge it needed. Before, you were vulnerable not only to the combo decks but also to a lot of the aggro decks. But time has been kind to tokens as we have been rewarded with cards like Shambling Vents and Sorin, the Solemn Visitor. I actually used to support a Mardu version of this deck because this deck desperately wanted a turn 1 removal spell. Oh how Lightning Bolt has fallen (although still better than Push in Legacy). Never did I imagine a card as powerful as Fatal Push would be printed; however, you can check out the hilarious doubts people had in previous pages. I think this deck is easily at least Tier 1.5 in power level.
Now I would say the one thing that's really stopping this deck is some of the sideboard hate cards. Things like Ensnaring Bridge and Engineered Explosives are rough. Technically, all the other midrange decks get super neutered by Rest in Peace, but few decks can actually afford to play Rest in Peace like we can; hence, they're still alive in the meta. I think in theory, Pithing Needle is just great in stopping Explosives and Liliana of the Last Hope. It's also one of the best cards against Tron, due to its flexibility. But I haven't played the deck in a while so I wouldn't know. Maybe it's good against the new Company deck as well? You guys tell me.
I could swap out the Murderous Cut for another Fatal Push, but as stated before, I don´t feel entirely confident in those Pushes without proper support from Fetchlands.
If you're looking for cheap/good removal, Might I suggest Slaughter pact and Dismember. They are both quite fantastic. Dismember can be cast for one generic mana if you're willing to pay the life and most modern relevant creature, even indestructible ones, fall to it. As for Slaughter pact, not being able to destroy black creature is a bit of a downer, but being able to cast it while being tapped out can lead to our opponent thinking we have nothing then BLAM!
Both are pretty cheap. Slaughter pact is 7$ and Dismember 3$. They where my removal package before Fatal push came in. I still run Slaughter pact from time to time.
I actually already have Dismember. I could replace it without much hassle. (I have 2)
However one of my first questions on this forum was about whether I should keep Fatal Push or if I should replace it with Dismember because I don´t have any Fetchlands currently.
The advice I got was that even without Fetches Fatal Push is still a better card, as it hit most things anyway and I still have Path to Exile for the bigger stuff.
I have a whole playset of Pushes, (preorderd them for cheap), so I could also replace the Murderous Cut with a Fatal Push without any cost.
According to the advice I´ve gotten so far that would be the thing to do. What are your thoughts on this?
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Fatal Push is good even without triggering revolt. Look at how many 4 cmc creatures there are in Modern: maybe 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Siege Rhino, etc. My point is there are not that many.
The only reason you should go down to 3 Fatal Push is to play 1 Dismember. This is due to the popularity of the Delve creatures, Reality Smasher, Drowner of Hope, etc. Now let's compare it with Slaughter Pact and Murderous Cut. Dismember being playable the first two turns + for 1-2 mana is a huge advantage; it kills black creatures unlike Slaughter Pact (Death Shadow + Delve creatures); Murderous Cut is very bad because we want cards like Rest in Peace against Grixis Control. Sometimes the opponent even brings Relic of Progenitus against us so that completely neuters Murderous Cut.
4 Path + 3 Push + 1 Dismember. That's all you need folks.
I feel like with a green splash, Noble Hierarch is a must-play card. It kind of acts as a double aether vial by allowing you to wasteland your opponent while allowing you to cast your spells.
Dark Confidant and Magus have been stealing free wins for me. It's amazing how the fair decks know you have Magus and Wastelands and yet still fetch/play dual lands to enable all their plays.
A nice sequence for me is to play a basic plains, and follow it with a turn 2 Cavern or Sol Land. This gives you a ton of value off your land even if your opponent chooses to wasteland it (often not an option if you are on the play, otherwise they slow themselves down too much).
I've been getting my ass kicked by ANT and TES consistently though. I have 1 Revoker and 2 Canonist in the main, but those are not enough without turn 1 interaction from the sideboard. Or I can wish for the best and land a turn 2 Thalia and turn 3 Prelate if I live that long.
In response to the list above this post.
You cannot avoid running Revokers and expect to do well in any decently large scale event. The card has game against just about every deck in the format:
Elves: Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid, Quirian Ranger, Birchlore Ranger
D&T: Mom, SFM, Vial, Jitte, Batterskull, SofaI, Gideon
Ant/Tes: Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox
BUG: Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Umezawa’s Jitte
Food Chain: Walking Ballista, Food Chain, Deathrite Shaman
Miracles: JTMS
Lands: Mox Diamond, Molten Vortex
Tin Fins: Griselbrand, Children of Korlis, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox
Sneak and Show: Lotus Petal, Grislebrand, Sneak Attack
Eldrazi: Endbringer
Reanimator: Griselbrand, Lotus Petal
If you're not running revokers or karakas you are conceding any reanimator/SNT type deck. For example, just last night I played in a 42 man weekly event (and they say legacy is dying) and in rounds 2 and 3 I played against Sneak and Show, and in my final round I played against B/R reanimator. Without revoker or karakas I lose all 3 of the matches. Being able to revoker Sneak attack with a prelate on 3 and a backup karakas shuts him out of a game.
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the role of flickerwisp if you believe "the worst card" without aether vial. The practical applications for this card are numerous. Card advantage through flickering SFM or Recruiter, resetting Revoker targets to deal with a changing boardstate, resetting planeswalkers who are getting to a bad place for us (this includes a + then -'ed Gideon on our side), flickering a rishadan port or wasteland to further deny them mana while advancing our own board, a delver resetter, resetting Prelate targets to deal with changing hands, and this is all without a vial needed; with a vial this card is monstrously good. While you are now playing two Wingmares, your delver matchup is almost certainly terrible now also without flickerwisp or the fourth SFM
That all being said. The 42 man tournament! General meta breakdown:
2x Grixis control
1x Grixis Delver
2x infect
2x sneak show
3x ANT
Bug Lands
Belcher
2x grixis delver
Merfolk
4c loam
2x BR Reanimator
Grixis reanimator
3x Maverick
UR delver
Bug nic-fit
Sneak-fit
Eldrazi nic-fit
2x Pox
5x Death & Taxes
Omni-show
Lands
2x Eldrazi
Turbo depths
Meathooks
Round 1: Bug Lands
First time seeing this deck. Player piloting the deck struggled to play effectively and its probably why I won the match.
Game 1: I can't figure out what he is on. I see pernicious deeds and lilys and toxic deluge and I think its just a really durdly draw for a shardless deck. I'm struggling to find lands to play out my hand after keeping a triple wasteland hand and he eventually gets enough mana to crop rotate snapcaster crop rotate into the combo and kill me on a crackback. I was suitably surprised.
Outs - 2 Mother, Jitte,
Ins - Crusaders, Prelate, Pithing Needle
Games 2 and 3 I lock him out with a prelate on 3 to stop Lily, Deluge, and Deed from wiping my board. I don't know if the matchup is favorable for us or not because my opponent was new to the deck.
1-0
Round 2: Sneak and Show
Game 1: Turn 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty good. Opponent durdles until he can get to 4 and play Sneak Attack, by that point I have SOTL+2 flickerwisps. He sneak attacks in Griselbrand to block, but I karakas it away before damage after blocks to prevent lifegain. He sneak attacks it the next turn, but I have Crusaders in hand and I shove through more damage than he can handle on the next two crackbacks and he concedes.
Outs - 2x Mirran Crusader, 1x stoneforge Mystic, 1x Recruiter of the Guard
Ins - Containment Pirest, Palace Jailer, 2x Path to exile
Game 2: No answer to mom into Thalia into prelate
While stressful, the matchup is extremely favorable to us.
Record - 2-0
Round 3 - Sneak and Show
I could pretty much copy and past the above match to explain how these games played. out Game 1 I out aggrod him and shut off griselbrand with Revoker.
Game 2 he turn 1 emrakul'ed me.
Game 3 he turn 2 emrakul'ed me but I had a karakas I held back and eventually beat him down with Thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Record - 3-0
Round 4- Reanimator
At the table of 3-0s, the lists were 2 Reanimator, 1 storm, 1 maverick, 1 DnT, 1 Eldrazi. TES beat Maverick, Reanimator lists beat DnT+Eldrazi
Game 1: I'm on the play, I have a swords in hand and an aethervial along with 2 karakas. I figure I will play vial with a karakas to protect against griselbrand or elesh norn. He does not have those creatures. He has a Sire of Insanity which he reanimates turn 1. I figure I'm dead, but I'll grind it out. I get Vial up to 3 and he cracks me down to 2, I proceed to topdeck Mirran Crusader to stop his attacks, then a second mirran crusader, then a flickerwisp and I get there.
Outs - 2x mother of runes, 1x stoneforge mystic, 1 flickerwisp, jitte, sanctum prelate, 1x recruiter of the guard
ins - containment priest, faerie macabre, palace jailer, 2x path to exile, 2x Rest in peace
Game 2: Turn one Griselbrand into turn 2 double Chancellor of the annex. Fun.
Game 3: Ends up with Archetype of endurance (this card is miserable) and a blazing archon out. I mind game him into thinking I have a second flickerwisp in hand I can use to power block his archetype and swords his blazing archon so he sits back for a long time before attacking giving me an opportunity to actually get enough power on board to kill the archetype. I eventually have him on lethal with a flickerwisp and Thalia+karakas trick, but he reanimates my Banisher priest, takes my Flickerwisp and hits me for lethal because I had been at 1 life for a long time.
Final Record 3-1. It's been awhile since I've played mono-white, and I didn't realize how much I missed it until I played it. I think playing mono-W is the way to go right now, the ghost quarter was an all star today and its been great in testing. I believe staying true to the Death and Taxes gameplan is going to give pilots a lot more wins than the cheesier Magus builds right now.
I like your name, but it kinda gives away your bias for the card.
Have you looked at my sideboard? Many of the cards overlap with where Revoker is good. Depending on the meta, I could certainly replace the Ethersworn Canonists for the Revokers but I find Canonists superior in the main right now. Note that my deck can utilize Revoker better than traditional lists with 5 sol lands to enable it as a turn 1 play.
Karakas and Revoker are insurance cards against the combo decks you listed. Taking them out still makes this match-up favorable for us (again look at the sideboard). Maybe the fact that 75% of your latest match happened to be Reanimator + Sneak/Show is twisting your definition of a 'large scale' event.
I disagree with your delver argument. The probability of drawing a 3-of vs a 4-of is 28% vs 33% respectively, and 32% vs 39% for x>= 1 copies. So no playing 3 stoneforge is not an auto loss. Have you looked at the other cards in the deck?: dark confidant, magus of the moon, orzhov pontiff, etc. These cards often spell "I win" against Grixis/ BUG delver decks. I would concede to the point that running less flyers is not ideal (2 vs 3-6 in traditional lists) but we're not exactly winning based on having flyers to trade; we're winning based on whether we can capitalize on equipment and shooting down Delvers with equipment/ Swords to Plowshares.
No one is debating whether or not Flickerwisp can't give you these situational and flexible outs. It's easy to overrate them specifically because they give you many creative ways of stealing a win; on the other hand, it's easy to forgive them when they are bad because they're such utility based creatures. What I'm questioning is how does this compare with running the other powerful 3-drops (Vryn Wingmare, Thalia HC, Recruiter) and accelerating them on turn 2, while also being able to make the 80% of the deck uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. Because Flickerwisp is one of the biggest limiter on this deck's mana base being an elemental and double white. Eliminating it completely enables the deck to play Tomb and Cavern, which give birth to a wide range of powerful cards, plays, and consistency.
First of all, 58 card main deck, 14 card sideboard. So it's not a legal deck.
Then we have: 0 copies of Mother of Runes. 0 copies of Wasteland. 3 copies of Stoneforge Mystic with 3 equipment cards in the deck??? 0 copies of Phyrexian Revoker, 0 copies of Karakas. Dark Confidant and Ancient Tomb don't belong in the same deck.
This isn't Death & Taxes, this is a pile of cards that doesn't have a unified purpose.
I have to update the description so ignore that for now.
I encourage you to think about this with an open mind (judging by your condescending tone). Yes I play 3 stoneforge mystic and 3 dark confidant. Even against fair decks, I rarely want multiples of either. The probability of drawing a 3-of is nearly identical to 4-of (5% difference) if we're concerned with drawing exactly one copy. Drawing multiples goes up significantly between 3 and 4. Playing recruiter of the guards also allow us to trim some excessive cards. Technically, you could apply the same reasoning to Mother of Runes but I play 4 copies to smooth out the curve and have more Aether Vial 1 counter plays.
I don't think either Revoker or Karakas is necessary in this deck. Revoker is pretty mediocre now that SDT is banned; Karakas is not as important as the other lands in the deck and I know skilled players who even go down to 2 copies. Why? Because Karakas is at its best in matches where we are already favorable. I added 3 Wasteland in this version and it seems fine without disrupting the color requirements.
Dark Confidant and Ancient Tomb in the same build is not a problem, though I wouldn't be able to convince you outside of testing experience.
My current build has no Chalice so it's a completely different deck than the one you listed. My two biggest changes to the original DnT are:
(1) making it more human tribal, to abuse Cavern of Souls. This also eases color splash into Confidants and Magus which drastically improve the auto-win factor of the deck. With cavern, the downside of playing non-white creatures is almost completely mitigated when combined with fetches. Ironically, this deck enables double white equally as well as mono white DnT (15 color sources).
(2) it wants to abuse single-white 3cmc cards with Ancient Tomb, in addition to various other plays (e.g enabling faster equipment plays, two 2-cmc plays on turn 3, etc. This deck is more heavily geared towards Magus of the Moon than other builds so there's a limit to what colorless non-basic lands I want to play. I currently rank Wasteland, Cavern, and Tomb to be more consistently important than Port or Karakas. Similarly, I don't miss Flickerwisp. It's the best card in the deck with Vial in play and one of the worst without it. DnT is a mana hungry deck without a vial in play. Half the times you can't even afford to Wasteland/ Port the first few turns because you need the mana to cast creatures.
I've seen Konig's list but quite frankly, I do not think it is optimized for a Chalice build. Playing Chalice of the Void without Sol lands is really mediocre in my experience. We have plenty of good turn 2 disruption; the whole point of Chalice is to offer the deck a turn 1 disruption spell which this deck lacks. This is why people started experimenting with Chalice and things like Thoughtseize in the first place.
Also I do not believe DnT should be heavily dedicated to red at all. Playing things like Pia and Kiran Naalar is fairly greedy even with his mana base but the real problem is that the deck is too slow.
Your list looks (kinda) similar to mine. I think Warping Wail is amazing in an ancient tomb build - 2 in the side.
Dusk Dawn seems quite good against the Delver/ TNN decks...
Dusk // Dawn is sweet. Gets rid of True Name, Flipped Delvers, Gurmag Angler and Leovolds without triggering him. and Dawn can be good in grindy matchups and to sometimes get back stoneforge and play it with veil end of turn. of coarse its all a bit easier with Ancient Tomb
i will try Warping Wail by taking a dismember and the extra Palace Jailer
It's not only versatile but also powerful. Basically stops the most common boardwipes, exiles many relevant creatures in Legacy (and Mother of Runes can't protect against it), and counters all the game winning sorcery spells.
After the miracles ban, things like Dread of Night aren't even played anymore. People are going for Toxic Deluge and Massacre. And it just so happens that Warping Wail is fantastic against them with 5 sol lands in the deck.
Palace Jailer has been inconsistent in my experience. It's not difficult for the opponent to be the monarch. I think of it as a 4-cmc Dark Confidant.
I decided to take out Chalice of the Void altogether. Yes playing it on turn 1 gives you free win against a variety of decks: Elves, Infect, to some degree Storm, etc. It's a powerful play even against the midrange decks that rely on cantrips and cheap removals. But the problem is we don't run enough Sol Lands and mana accelerant to play it on turn 1 consistently. Playing it on turn 2 is a guaranteed tempo loss. If this all sounds obvious sorry but no one on the internet seems to highlight these weaknesses.
With that said, I'm still sold on Ancient Tomb. Cards like Rishadan Port and (to a lesser degree) Wasteland are a lot worse without a turn 1 Aether Vial. I'd be willing to squeeze in a Wasteland here and there but again, it's a lot weaker without a turn 1 Aether Vial which is why I'm going for a more stable mana base. Tomb not only enables 3 cmc threats on turn 2 but also allows dishing out two 2 cmc threats on turn 3.
Playing a human-oriented deck - with the exception of Vryn Wingmare and Stoneforge - with 4 Cavern of Souls has been superb. I only run 2 duals and yet I can afford to play Dark Confidant, Orzhov Pontiff, and Magus of the Moon with no trouble. Dark Confidant makes a disgusting couple with Mother of Runes and if it stays alive for more than 2 turns, you'll probably win the game. It's the best counter we have to recover from boardwipes (most of which we don't have a great answer for) and opposing Wasteland/ Stifle strategies.
The primary debate seems to be how much DnT should be devoted to death (beatdown) and to taxes. Some lists run Crusader + Serra Avengers while others find them unnecessary. Personally I find the combination of dark confidants, stoneforge mystic, mother of runes, recruiter of the guard (into magus, crusader, pontiff, etc.) to be more than enough to handle the fair match-ups. What this deck really struggles with is combo. Sure it has a decent match-up against Sneak and Show but most other combo match-ups feel pretty mediocre. You cannot start a hand with a bunch of cards like Serra Avenger, Stoneforge Mystic, and Mother of Runes against Reanimator and yet based on probability, you will often have this type of opening hand.
Ethersworn Canonist (in the main) has been fantastic across both the unfair matches and fair ones. Another card that seems to be very versatile - and severely overlooked - is Vryn Wingmare. The problem with Wingmare before was that 3 cmc was a bit too slow sometimes. This is my replacement for Serra Avenger. They both trade against Delver of Secrets. Vigilance can be relevant but Wingmare doubles as additional taxing. DnT feels mediocre sometimes without a turn 2 Thalia and Wingmare mitigates this problem greatly when combined with Ancient Tomb.
A card that's been somewhat forgotten is Thalia, Heretic Cathar. In a mono white build with no acceleration, I would agree this card is not consistent. It's even worse if you run less than 3 copies, making her a hit-or-miss topdeck. But in a deck that can support her with 4 Ancient Tomb (and perhaps 1-2 City of Traitors) and 4 Cavern of Souls, my goodness this card is a killer tempo play.
Chalice of the Void: Superb. I'm still testing between 3 and 4 but I'm leaning towards 3 copies.
Magus of the Moon: Free win against the 3-4 color decks, especially with 4 Cavern of Souls and 4 Vials to make them counter-proof.
Cavern of Souls: MVP land. This with Ancient Tomb makes the deck almost Daze and FoW proof. It does prevent me from playing Serra Avenger, Revoker, Flickerwisp, etc. but I personally don't miss those cards in the main and swapped them out for 2 Ethersworn Canonist.
Ancient Tomb: MVP candidate. DnT now has access to so many powerful single-white 3 cmc creatures (Thalia HC + Wingmare + Recruiter) and this gives greater incentive to play it. Tomb allows you to dish out equipment much more quickly - even under Thalia tax - and of course enables Chalice of the Void turn 1. Life loss hasn't been an issue at all.
Vryn Wingmare: don't we all want to play more than 4 Thalia? And play them on turn 2? Well here is the answer. It also happens to fly and block Delver.
One card I tested this week was Chrome Mox. You could see its appeal: enables 2-cmc threats on turn 1 which is borderline broken, is 0 cmc for Dark Confidant, and still allows turn 3 threats (sanctum prelate *drool*). What's the problem? The card disadvantage isn't terrible: it's that no one told me playing 14 colorless artifacts and only 20 white sources would lead to such terrible synergy. Yup this is firmly a bad card for DnT. My goodness if only Deathrite Shaman was a human type...
I did consider testing Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal but cannot bring myself to do it yet. The awkward thing is that there are plenty of turn 1 spells (4 chalice, 4 aether vials) and that conflicts with whatever 2-cmc threat you want to jam on turn 1. I think it is best to leave the free mana artifacts/ creatures out of the discussion for now. But definitely an interesting consideration for the deck. As it stands now, Ancient Tomb is good enough as it has synergy with almost every card in the deck (granted you need to replace some 3 cmc cards).
I'm thinking about trying 2x Marsh Flats, 1x Scrubland and 1x Orzhov Pontiff in my main deck, since almost every matches I lose involves TNN. This idea does make me curious about playing a Recruiter of the Guard tool box though, could that be a good idea?
I play 1 Orzhov Pontiff and 2 Recruiter in a Chalice-Moon build. The mana base is 4 Cavern of Souls + 5 Fetchlands among other things. To be honest you really don't draw into Pontiff as reliably as you need to out of the side (which is why I main it) but nevertheless, you can't afford to play more than 2 Recruiter in my opinion. You want an indirect way of beating TNN decks: playing Magus of the Moon.
Field of Ruin can be played as early as turn 3 but unlike Ghost Quarters, it doesn't put you down a land. I don't like playing more than 2 colorless sources but this seems quite interesting. Maybe less relevant in Modern because most decks do play some sort of basics.
I never tested it but I've watched a good number of gameplays of an arbiter build. Not being able to run Stoneforge Mystic really weakens your late game - like a lot. Equipment is one of the main reasons DnT beats a lot of fair decks and without it, it doesn't stand a chance really. You can still run them but at the expense of drawing them less frequently. You do get some fun mana blowout games though.
I really like Wingmare. A flyer that can trade with Delver of Secrets and be relevant against 70%+ of the meta is a pretty damn good card. It's not better than Thalia - nor should you expect it to - but it's a card that combos well with Thalia and stacks. I currently don't run any because I'm constructing a more cohesive human build but it's always on my mind.
Chalice single-handedly solves many problems. It can actually win the game on the spot against all our bad match-ups (Infect, Burn, Elves, etc.) but is also powerful against the decks we're about 50/50 against (e.g Delver builds, any cantrip/ deathrite decks, ANT/TES, etc.). Death and Taxes utilizes Chalice very well with some mana base adjustments because we don't have as many 1-drops as say, Merfolk, and we can cheat things through Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial. Another reason why it's a great addition is because it serves as an additional turn 1-2 disruption - currently our only option is Thalia and an occasional Revoker. One of the weaknesses of DnT is it doesn't even start disrupting until turn 2, and that's with an ideal hand (turn 2 Thalia or turn 1 Vial + turn 2 Wasteland/Port). Combined with Sanctum Prelate and Magus of the Moon, DnT gains a ton of percentages against decks like Lands and most 3-color decks.
The main disadvantage of running Chalice is losing an efficient removal in Swords to Plowshares. This means you have less out to things like an early Marit Lage token (though somewhat laughable here) or Griselbrand. Aside from some creature-based combo decks, I do believe we have more to gain. Chalice is arguably stronger against Delver builds (shuts off opposing removal, cantrips that strengthen their early and late game, death rite shamans, etc.) and against TNN stoneblade decks, blessed alliance is going to be far more important. Swords to Plowshares is most useful against weenie decks that care to die (e.g the mirror) and Young Pyromancer/ Mentor. Thankfully, this is where Orzhov Pontiff comes in from the side. Things like Maverick, Elves, Slivers, etc. are going to be hard regardless of what removals you are running and you have to rely on your other cards to win the game. My main fear would be decks that run a ton of beaters like Goyf, Gurmag Angler, Thought Knot Seer, etc. but if this was the case, we simply run more Mirran Crusader and Banisher Priests.
Oh shoot you are right. I'm a noob
Still though don't side Crusader in!
This is what I keep saying to the green splash people. Abrupt decay is really bad in the meta right now and isn't worth a splash, which is why you see maybe 2 copies even in Jund Shadow lists. I don't see it coming back anytime soon unless you see a ton of Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridges, and Splinter Twin revival.
Although lightning bolt is at an all time low, we are already heavily favored against the black midrange decks. I don't like the idea of getting blown out by Kolaghan's Command either. You're better of siding more things like Rest in Peace which destroys the decks you'd side Crusader in, while also being great in other matches.
Fatal Push is what gave the Tokens the edge it needed. Before, you were vulnerable not only to the combo decks but also to a lot of the aggro decks. But time has been kind to tokens as we have been rewarded with cards like Shambling Vents and Sorin, the Solemn Visitor. I actually used to support a Mardu version of this deck because this deck desperately wanted a turn 1 removal spell. Oh how Lightning Bolt has fallen (although still better than Push in Legacy). Never did I imagine a card as powerful as Fatal Push would be printed; however, you can check out the hilarious doubts people had in previous pages. I think this deck is easily at least Tier 1.5 in power level.
Now I would say the one thing that's really stopping this deck is some of the sideboard hate cards. Things like Ensnaring Bridge and Engineered Explosives are rough. Technically, all the other midrange decks get super neutered by Rest in Peace, but few decks can actually afford to play Rest in Peace like we can; hence, they're still alive in the meta. I think in theory, Pithing Needle is just great in stopping Explosives and Liliana of the Last Hope. It's also one of the best cards against Tron, due to its flexibility. But I haven't played the deck in a while so I wouldn't know. Maybe it's good against the new Company deck as well? You guys tell me.
Fatal Push is good even without triggering revolt. Look at how many 4 cmc creatures there are in Modern: maybe 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Siege Rhino, etc. My point is there are not that many.
The only reason you should go down to 3 Fatal Push is to play 1 Dismember. This is due to the popularity of the Delve creatures, Reality Smasher, Drowner of Hope, etc. Now let's compare it with Slaughter Pact and Murderous Cut. Dismember being playable the first two turns + for 1-2 mana is a huge advantage; it kills black creatures unlike Slaughter Pact (Death Shadow + Delve creatures); Murderous Cut is very bad because we want cards like Rest in Peace against Grixis Control. Sometimes the opponent even brings Relic of Progenitus against us so that completely neuters Murderous Cut.
4 Path + 3 Push + 1 Dismember. That's all you need folks.
Dark Confidant and Magus have been stealing free wins for me. It's amazing how the fair decks know you have Magus and Wastelands and yet still fetch/play dual lands to enable all their plays.
A nice sequence for me is to play a basic plains, and follow it with a turn 2 Cavern or Sol Land. This gives you a ton of value off your land even if your opponent chooses to wasteland it (often not an option if you are on the play, otherwise they slow themselves down too much).
I've been getting my ass kicked by ANT and TES consistently though. I have 1 Revoker and 2 Canonist in the main, but those are not enough without turn 1 interaction from the sideboard. Or I can wish for the best and land a turn 2 Thalia and turn 3 Prelate if I live that long.
I like your name, but it kinda gives away your bias for the card.
Have you looked at my sideboard? Many of the cards overlap with where Revoker is good. Depending on the meta, I could certainly replace the Ethersworn Canonists for the Revokers but I find Canonists superior in the main right now. Note that my deck can utilize Revoker better than traditional lists with 5 sol lands to enable it as a turn 1 play.
Karakas and Revoker are insurance cards against the combo decks you listed. Taking them out still makes this match-up favorable for us (again look at the sideboard). Maybe the fact that 75% of your latest match happened to be Reanimator + Sneak/Show is twisting your definition of a 'large scale' event.
I disagree with your delver argument. The probability of drawing a 3-of vs a 4-of is 28% vs 33% respectively, and 32% vs 39% for x>= 1 copies. So no playing 3 stoneforge is not an auto loss. Have you looked at the other cards in the deck?: dark confidant, magus of the moon, orzhov pontiff, etc. These cards often spell "I win" against Grixis/ BUG delver decks. I would concede to the point that running less flyers is not ideal (2 vs 3-6 in traditional lists) but we're not exactly winning based on having flyers to trade; we're winning based on whether we can capitalize on equipment and shooting down Delvers with equipment/ Swords to Plowshares.
No one is debating whether or not Flickerwisp can't give you these situational and flexible outs. It's easy to overrate them specifically because they give you many creative ways of stealing a win; on the other hand, it's easy to forgive them when they are bad because they're such utility based creatures. What I'm questioning is how does this compare with running the other powerful 3-drops (Vryn Wingmare, Thalia HC, Recruiter) and accelerating them on turn 2, while also being able to make the 80% of the deck uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. Because Flickerwisp is one of the biggest limiter on this deck's mana base being an elemental and double white. Eliminating it completely enables the deck to play Tomb and Cavern, which give birth to a wide range of powerful cards, plays, and consistency.
I abandoned that build a while ago, which is why it has 58 cards. Here is the updated no-Chalice version: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mardu-dnt-2017-no-chalice/
I have to update the description so ignore that for now.
I encourage you to think about this with an open mind (judging by your condescending tone). Yes I play 3 stoneforge mystic and 3 dark confidant. Even against fair decks, I rarely want multiples of either. The probability of drawing a 3-of is nearly identical to 4-of (5% difference) if we're concerned with drawing exactly one copy. Drawing multiples goes up significantly between 3 and 4. Playing recruiter of the guards also allow us to trim some excessive cards. Technically, you could apply the same reasoning to Mother of Runes but I play 4 copies to smooth out the curve and have more Aether Vial 1 counter plays.
I don't think either Revoker or Karakas is necessary in this deck. Revoker is pretty mediocre now that SDT is banned; Karakas is not as important as the other lands in the deck and I know skilled players who even go down to 2 copies. Why? Because Karakas is at its best in matches where we are already favorable. I added 3 Wasteland in this version and it seems fine without disrupting the color requirements.
Dark Confidant and Ancient Tomb in the same build is not a problem, though I wouldn't be able to convince you outside of testing experience.
My current build has no Chalice so it's a completely different deck than the one you listed. My two biggest changes to the original DnT are:
(1) making it more human tribal, to abuse Cavern of Souls. This also eases color splash into Confidants and Magus which drastically improve the auto-win factor of the deck. With cavern, the downside of playing non-white creatures is almost completely mitigated when combined with fetches. Ironically, this deck enables double white equally as well as mono white DnT (15 color sources).
(2) it wants to abuse single-white 3cmc cards with Ancient Tomb, in addition to various other plays (e.g enabling faster equipment plays, two 2-cmc plays on turn 3, etc. This deck is more heavily geared towards Magus of the Moon than other builds so there's a limit to what colorless non-basic lands I want to play. I currently rank Wasteland, Cavern, and Tomb to be more consistently important than Port or Karakas. Similarly, I don't miss Flickerwisp. It's the best card in the deck with Vial in play and one of the worst without it. DnT is a mana hungry deck without a vial in play. Half the times you can't even afford to Wasteland/ Port the first few turns because you need the mana to cast creatures.
I've seen Konig's list but quite frankly, I do not think it is optimized for a Chalice build. Playing Chalice of the Void without Sol lands is really mediocre in my experience. We have plenty of good turn 2 disruption; the whole point of Chalice is to offer the deck a turn 1 disruption spell which this deck lacks. This is why people started experimenting with Chalice and things like Thoughtseize in the first place.
Also I do not believe DnT should be heavily dedicated to red at all. Playing things like Pia and Kiran Naalar is fairly greedy even with his mana base but the real problem is that the deck is too slow.
It's not only versatile but also powerful. Basically stops the most common boardwipes, exiles many relevant creatures in Legacy (and Mother of Runes can't protect against it), and counters all the game winning sorcery spells.
After the miracles ban, things like Dread of Night aren't even played anymore. People are going for Toxic Deluge and Massacre. And it just so happens that Warping Wail is fantastic against them with 5 sol lands in the deck.
Palace Jailer has been inconsistent in my experience. It's not difficult for the opponent to be the monarch. I think of it as a 4-cmc Dark Confidant.
Your list looks (kinda) similar to mine. I think Warping Wail is amazing in an ancient tomb build - 2 in the side.
Dusk Dawn seems quite good against the Delver/ TNN decks...
With that said, I'm still sold on Ancient Tomb. Cards like Rishadan Port and (to a lesser degree) Wasteland are a lot worse without a turn 1 Aether Vial. I'd be willing to squeeze in a Wasteland here and there but again, it's a lot weaker without a turn 1 Aether Vial which is why I'm going for a more stable mana base. Tomb not only enables 3 cmc threats on turn 2 but also allows dishing out two 2 cmc threats on turn 3.
Playing a human-oriented deck - with the exception of Vryn Wingmare and Stoneforge - with 4 Cavern of Souls has been superb. I only run 2 duals and yet I can afford to play Dark Confidant, Orzhov Pontiff, and Magus of the Moon with no trouble. Dark Confidant makes a disgusting couple with Mother of Runes and if it stays alive for more than 2 turns, you'll probably win the game. It's the best counter we have to recover from boardwipes (most of which we don't have a great answer for) and opposing Wasteland/ Stifle strategies.
The primary debate seems to be how much DnT should be devoted to death (beatdown) and to taxes. Some lists run Crusader + Serra Avengers while others find them unnecessary. Personally I find the combination of dark confidants, stoneforge mystic, mother of runes, recruiter of the guard (into magus, crusader, pontiff, etc.) to be more than enough to handle the fair match-ups. What this deck really struggles with is combo. Sure it has a decent match-up against Sneak and Show but most other combo match-ups feel pretty mediocre. You cannot start a hand with a bunch of cards like Serra Avenger, Stoneforge Mystic, and Mother of Runes against Reanimator and yet based on probability, you will often have this type of opening hand.
Ethersworn Canonist (in the main) has been fantastic across both the unfair matches and fair ones. Another card that seems to be very versatile - and severely overlooked - is Vryn Wingmare. The problem with Wingmare before was that 3 cmc was a bit too slow sometimes. This is my replacement for Serra Avenger. They both trade against Delver of Secrets. Vigilance can be relevant but Wingmare doubles as additional taxing. DnT feels mediocre sometimes without a turn 2 Thalia and Wingmare mitigates this problem greatly when combined with Ancient Tomb.
A card that's been somewhat forgotten is Thalia, Heretic Cathar. In a mono white build with no acceleration, I would agree this card is not consistent. It's even worse if you run less than 3 copies, making her a hit-or-miss topdeck. But in a deck that can support her with 4 Ancient Tomb (and perhaps 1-2 City of Traitors) and 4 Cavern of Souls, my goodness this card is a killer tempo play.
Chalice of the Void: Superb. I'm still testing between 3 and 4 but I'm leaning towards 3 copies.
Magus of the Moon: Free win against the 3-4 color decks, especially with 4 Cavern of Souls and 4 Vials to make them counter-proof.
Cavern of Souls: MVP land. This with Ancient Tomb makes the deck almost Daze and FoW proof. It does prevent me from playing Serra Avenger, Revoker, Flickerwisp, etc. but I personally don't miss those cards in the main and swapped them out for 2 Ethersworn Canonist.
Ancient Tomb: MVP candidate. DnT now has access to so many powerful single-white 3 cmc creatures (Thalia HC + Wingmare + Recruiter) and this gives greater incentive to play it. Tomb allows you to dish out equipment much more quickly - even under Thalia tax - and of course enables Chalice of the Void turn 1. Life loss hasn't been an issue at all.
Vryn Wingmare: don't we all want to play more than 4 Thalia? And play them on turn 2? Well here is the answer. It also happens to fly and block Delver.
One card I tested this week was Chrome Mox. You could see its appeal: enables 2-cmc threats on turn 1 which is borderline broken, is 0 cmc for Dark Confidant, and still allows turn 3 threats (sanctum prelate *drool*). What's the problem? The card disadvantage isn't terrible: it's that no one told me playing 14 colorless artifacts and only 20 white sources would lead to such terrible synergy. Yup this is firmly a bad card for DnT. My goodness if only Deathrite Shaman was a human type...
I did consider testing Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal but cannot bring myself to do it yet. The awkward thing is that there are plenty of turn 1 spells (4 chalice, 4 aether vials) and that conflicts with whatever 2-cmc threat you want to jam on turn 1. I think it is best to leave the free mana artifacts/ creatures out of the discussion for now. But definitely an interesting consideration for the deck. As it stands now, Ancient Tomb is good enough as it has synergy with almost every card in the deck (granted you need to replace some 3 cmc cards).
I play 1 Orzhov Pontiff and 2 Recruiter in a Chalice-Moon build. The mana base is 4 Cavern of Souls + 5 Fetchlands among other things. To be honest you really don't draw into Pontiff as reliably as you need to out of the side (which is why I main it) but nevertheless, you can't afford to play more than 2 Recruiter in my opinion. You want an indirect way of beating TNN decks: playing Magus of the Moon.