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  • posted a message on [Primer] Jeskai Control / UWR Control
    Quote from Kingmacar29 »
    Not sure if it is really UWr control, but I wanted to know what you UWr folks think of Jonathan Sukenik's list that finished 4th at SCG Baltimore. I'm not really familiar with piloting UWr Control, but I'm really interested about knowing how it work from the player perspective (and not the opponent, because I've seen a some play against it). I'm considering building a control deck after MM2 comes out, so UWr might be my choice!



    The deck is obviously good given the 4th place finish and I love flashback but the deck just feels like it has too much going on. Lingering souls only seems like a standout card against BGx and affinity which combined are only roughly 15% of the online meta. It's certainly not the sort of card you want against twin, burn and any sort of combo deck since tapping out on turn 3 for 2 1/1's might just kill you and sitting on the cards until you have counter protection feels crappy.

    I love tectonic edge and in straight UWR it's possible to support 3 copies but obviously this deck has sacrificed some colourless land to be able to run black which means you have less answers to manlands and your % against tron drops a lot. On the flip side with just 2 black sources it's very possible that you get yourself completely cut off it anyway. I'm also worried about the lack of a basic mountain. I know it seems strange but I have had more than 1 game where my only red source has been destroyed with a ghost quarter or there is the threat of tec edge and I've really wanted access to it. There's also the times where you need to bolt something and don't want to shock yourself to do it. The fact both your black sources don't produce blue is awkward. I'd think a watery grave would be better over 1 or the other simply so you don't have to choose between black or blue.

    If I really wanted to run creatures I'd swap out the 4 souls for 4 resto's. Sure it trades 1 for 1 but it doesn't die to bolt, abrupt decay, electrolyze and the like. You also get the advantage of flashing it in and there will always be the corner-case situation where you're able to blink a snappy.

    While there's so much combo (I count twin, burn and infect here) in modern having a 3 mana sorcery that makes 2 guys that your opponent doesn't care about is not the way forward in my opinion.

    Take what I have to say as you will I'm no expert.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Myth Realized
    Quote from Lectrys »
    Quote from lukey52 »
    While this card gives off the impression of being good I feel like it doesn't slot in in modern in 3 colour control. If you drop him on turn 1 against BRx then you turn on all their abrupt decay which otherwise would have been rotting in hand all game 1.

    Against decks like burn, twin, infect, affinity and anything that wants to win in the first few turns it's also far too slow since you're not going to have 3 mana left open each turn until the game has gone a long way at which point you've got the game in control anyway. It's nice to think you can make a huge guy and attack for just 1 mana rather than how much you have to tap with colonnade but we'll see.

    My question would be assuming you put 2 or 3 of this in your deck, what is the cut? Also since it does nothing when you first play it and unless you play it with 10+ land out already it takes a number of turns to power up. Having 2 of these guys in your opening hand over say some burn will suck against a number of decks. Lastly, to people saying it works great as a turn 1 play. Dropping this guy on turn 1 means very likely taking 2-3 damage and leaving potential colonnades stuck in hand messing your curve for jeskai/esper.

    I'm willing to be proven wrong because having something that doesn't take 5 mana to attack is a great bonus but at the moment the downsides seem to outweigh it. It could function as a sideboard card since BRx should be siding out decay and it's a great mana sync against control who should have taken out most removal also though I'd be afraid of cryptic bounce after I've spent 15 mana powering it up. Since the meta isn't full of control and BGx right now anyway there are more important cards to have in the board for the bigger decks.

    At first, I was also skeptical about Myth Realized in control(-midrange) builds--I'm a bigger fan of Myth Realized in midrange builds because those decks play other threats that should lure removal--but I've found that some decks are horridly Myth Realized-weak. In fact, one of the decks you said should be strong against Myth Realized, Twin, is actually pretty Myth Realized-weak. Stick one with disruption back-up against Twin on Turn 4, keep dealing with their threats and answers along the way, then start swinging with MR once it dodges Bolt (or whenever they forget to leave red mana open). It's actually surprisingly easy to make MR dodge double Bolt (and even easier to make it dodge Snapcaster Mage into block into Bolt). UR Twin has basically no hope of actually trading away a 6+/6+ MR, and even a 4+/4+ MR needs 2 of their guys (or double burn) to kill. Getting bounced by Cryptic does suck, though. Luckily, Twin tends to maindeck only 2 Cryptics, so those should be easier to manage, especially since MR grows staggeringly large reasonably quickly against them (thus, their Cryptics bouncing it should be in Mana Leak range).

    Of course, MR is now the biggest Abrupt Decay bait in the nation. You're probably better off with more disruption against BGx Midrange.

    Against fast decks such as Burn/Affinity/Infect, Myth Realized tends to perform slightly better than a 4-drop such as Restoration Angel. ...Yeah, that's faint praise. You're definitely better off with cheaper answers and threats that are better earlier against them, such as Wall of Omens and Vendilion Clique. But, unlike actual 4-drops, at least early MRs can chump-block against aggro or trade against Burn.

    MR should shine the most in ramp match-ups such as RG Tron (yes, that huge problem match-up for UWR Control), as early ones can actually do quite a bit of damage before they get taken out (or if they ever do). That damage can ensure that RG Tron actually can't stabilize. You're likely better off with V. Clique against combo, but MR at least is a fun bundle of joy that does reasonably well against them.

    You're not going to leave 3 mana up each turn, but opponents will run their early threats into your 1-2-mana disruption. Casting disruption charges Myth Realized up. (MR actually makes Remand suck a little.)

    Probably the #1 reason to run Myth Realized over large, more stable threats is that MR can sneak under counters, targeted discard, and Twin players by being playable on Turn 1.


    I'm an idiot I somehow missed the part about it getting pumped by non creature spells. That is certainly a huge difference but I'm still unsure what I'd want to replace it with since at least with the list I run there's only snapcasters as creatures. I'll wait some modern tournament data and see if the card sees positive play.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Myth Realized
    While this card gives off the impression of being good I feel like it doesn't slot in in modern in 3 colour control. If you drop him on turn 1 against BRx then you turn on all their abrupt decay which otherwise would have been rotting in hand all game 1.

    Against decks like burn, twin, infect, affinity and anything that wants to win in the first few turns it's also far too slow since you're not going to have 3 mana left open each turn until the game has gone a long way at which point you've got the game in control anyway. It's nice to think you can make a huge guy and attack for just 1 mana rather than how much you have to tap with colonnade but we'll see.

    My question would be assuming you put 2 or 3 of this in your deck, what is the cut? Also since it does nothing when you first play it and unless you play it with 10+ land out already it takes a number of turns to power up. Having 2 of these guys in your opening hand over say some burn will suck against a number of decks. Lastly, to people saying it works great as a turn 1 play. Dropping this guy on turn 1 means very likely taking 2-3 damage and leaving potential colonnades stuck in hand messing your curve for jeskai/esper.

    I'm willing to be proven wrong because having something that doesn't take 5 mana to attack is a great bonus but at the moment the downsides seem to outweigh it. It could function as a sideboard card since BRx should be siding out decay and it's a great mana sync against control who should have taken out most removal also though I'd be afraid of cryptic bounce after I've spent 15 mana powering it up. Since the meta isn't full of control and BGx right now anyway there are more important cards to have in the board for the bigger decks.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Is Spell Snare still important for control?
    I'm sure people already said this but a couple of snares are great. They make better top decks than mana leak late game at least.

    Totally disagree that they're bad against twin. It hits 8 key maindeck cards in snapcaster and remand which make it an essential tool in the counter wars.

    Agree against abzan it's poor but I run 2 copies and just side it out postboard then.

    Once the RG command is out on modo burn % will skyrocket and I guess burn decks will be jamming close to 20 2cmc spells at which point you'll be very thankful to have maindeck answers to so much of their spells.

    It's also solid against affinity and other snapcaster decks.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Living Lore
    Quote from Sled_Dog »
    Enter the Infinite. Pick up the deck, exile simian spirit guide, cast lightning storm, win. Keep in mind the trigger for living lore is any combat damage, so if it lives through combat you get to cast something.


    This is exactly how the ad nasueam deck wins but instead of an instant speed turn 3/4 combo deck you're having to 1) resolve a creature, 2) have it live to attack and 3) all be done at sorcery speed

    I fail to see the benefits that a living lore version offers other than a potential 12/12 beater that has no form of protection, doesn't trample or fly. On top of this you have to run cards to enable your graveyard and therefore increase your exposure to hate.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    Quote from idSurge »
    Because playing both with and against Control is dull? Because Burn can get under any reasonable Control deck and MODO is infested with burn and infect?


    This is quite surprising

    I don't think burn is as bad. Game one might be tough but most pure uwr control decks are running 3-4 lightning helix main + snapcasters and plenty of creature removal so a win can happen.

    Post board I bring in 3 timely reinforcements and cheap counters. You can be as competent as you like at burn you can't get around a turn 4 timely with dispel/snare backup. With a mixture of helix's and snapcasters for good measure they can be top decking and you're still at 15+ life with plenty of room to win.

    Infect is certainly more of a problem but if they don't lead with a nexus you have a chance to bolt/path the t1 elf or bolt/path/helix the t2 agent and with only 12 infect guys it's not unreasonable that they have no more gas straight away.

    As to a pure control list that modern cards could play. I would think some form of miracles shell with top would be the way to go. There might not be brainstorm but top with fetches and miracle triggers is still going to work just fine. Burn would be quite a hard match but with 4 terminus you would be able to massively trim down on removal and burn spells freeing up space for answers.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Living Lore
    I have been messing around with brews with it but I keep running into the same issue. Namely -

    You have to get the card you want to use into your graveyard.
    You have to wait until turn 3 or 4 to get it into play and then another turn to attack.
    It can get countered or killed by a large range of decks
    Even after you attacked you then have to resolve the spell through possible counters
    The deck is very fragile to hate or discard with an almost impossible task to win without the graveyard

    I'm sure there are ways to build the deck I haven't considered but it keeps coming down to the fact you 100% require your graveyard to be untouched

    It feels like you're better off playing ad nauseam combo if you want an all in combo deck, it wins at the same speed, can win at instant speed and doesn't require the graveyard. If you want a combo deck that can actually win a normal game then ofc twin is the way to go.

    That being said I hope someone brews something spicy even if it isn't tier 1, going 3-1 in some dailies would be cool
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Legacy, other constructed formats and the direction of Magic
    I played casual paper during lunch breaks at school in the early 2000's but these days my only method is digital for several reasons.

    While modo is a depressing program to have to play with it is at least functional. The reserved list greatly restricts paper options for wizards but online is another story. There is support for the older formats (as witnessed by last years vintage masters). Sure they're just looking to cash in but they massively opened up in particular legacy with the crashing in price of many staples (LED from 185 to 10 as one extreme example). The current most played modo deck Grixis Delver is less than 500 to build yet on paper is costs an extra 2000 for the pleasure.

    Sure it doesn't offer the same experience being able to read opponents or just generally interact with them but at the same time there are other upsides. You're not spending half the time shuffling decks, you're able to have a quick 30 minute game if it's 4am or 4pm and can build new decks as you wish without having to go out your way to source them or wait days to order them in.

    I don't see myself ever going back to paper simply due to the initial buy in cost of legacy or even modern and the fact I dislike the creature on creature format standard has become.

    As the years go by and prices continue to rise while stocks of duals go down (accidental damage, loss etc) there will come a point where the only way to play these older formats in a big way will be online.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    Quote from bill_zagoudis »

    you might think that JTMS is not overpowered compared to how you envision Modern (like many people do, these people generally say unban more: BBE, Sword of The Meek, JTMS, AV,Dig Through Time and sometimes even more) but saying that JTMS is perfectly fine for today's Modern means that you want BGx to die out of revenge or simply because you hate it's pilots in your local shop

    btw has it also crossed your mind that all archetypes are not ''equal''? we don't won non interactive combo too become more than an occasional game in a 5 turn event,why? because it sucks loosing vs such decks, likewise draw-go control is extremely UNFUN to play against and in fact can be as linear as non interactive agro and combo people like you would snob: you just answer everything the other guy does, Midrange on the other hand is the ''natural'' way to play this game and actually creature combat and potential combinations of blocks (with surprises from the opponents hand) take way more skill to calculate than simply bolting a few guys and casting a sweeper and waiting till the other guy is completely helpless till you take any sort of initiative, draw-go control IS a linear strategy: you just cast an answer everytime the opponent casts a threat


    So you think BGx is fun to play against? I get as much enjoyment out of a game where I have my hand taken apart at the start followed by a big creature or liliana that I no longer have an answer to as I do getting combo'ed off on turn 2-3 without any chance to stop it.

    Everyone can find something oppressive, that is personal preference.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    I'm disappointed that nothing at all was changed.

    Having to chose between GBx, Twin or another combo deck is very unexciting. Control really needs some love and AV could have been a step in the right direction.

    I hope the new RG command makes burn so busted it hits 20% + meta (I don't even play/like playing against it) and WotC has a serious look at the format in the summer and does like they did in January and really shakes things up.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    Quote from mtgnomad »
    Quote from Tasty_Cyanide »


    Call me crazy, but I'd be willing to try it. and if he ends up dominating the format, then ban him. I think literally everyone would understand Jace getting rebanned after a few tournaments.


    Unbanning Jace, letting a bunch of people spend upwards of $500 on a playset after the price spikes, then rebanning him three months later will do an incredible amount of damage to people's faith in modern. This is probably the best argument for not unbanning him in the first place. At the very least, WoTC should unban cards like Dig, AV, and sword first to see if they are strong enough to push control into Tier 1.


    Since we're hours out from the announcement here's my prediction.
    I want: no new bans; Bloodbraid elf and either AV or Dig unbanned.
    I expect: no new unbans, summer bloom banned, to be really annoyed.


    If wizards decided to keep jace banned simply on price concerns then it's a very sad day for modern. Anyway I can't imagine decks wanting 4 jace anyway, more likely 1 or 2.

    As for later I'm all for spicing things up

    I want to see an unban on BBE, AV and Sword though I can't begin to think what they'll actually do

    I'm indifferent on bans, if I had to pick something it would be become immense or something from the amulet deck. I do think infect didn't take off like it could have so that will probably be safe but the titan deck has made a name for itself and I wouldn't be surprised if summer bloom was hit

    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    Jace isn't even played much in legacy outside of a couple of decks though. The decks that do for the most part are able to make sure he sticks thanks to shredding your hand with discard, using counter top lock/terminus and also having force backup.

    For the sake of argument assuming you tap out on turn 4 for jace your burn opponent likely just kills you anyway. Twin can eot flash in a guy and combo off or just beat jace to death. Affinity and infect (if it didn't already) can just ignore him and kill you, amulet can make a hasty titan and kill him/you, merfolk can swarm him, scapeshift can just win, tron can let you mass up cards and just emrakul you and control can just use burn/snappy.

    Now this obviously does require the opposing player to have the ability to do as above but from the way I see it jace looks surprisingly fragile in this meta. As a top deck if you're both top decking sure it's insane though I'm not sure at what point in the game you'd rather just hit a revelation and be able to draw 5+ cards right away.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015)
    Quote from AvalonAurora »
    Inkmoth Nexus, Become Immense, Atarka's Command, Skullcrack, Cranial Plating, Destructive Revelry, Abrupt Decay, Snapcaster Mage, Spellskite, Deceiver Exarch, Village Bell-Ringer, Simian Spirit Guide and the Ravnica bounce-lands (Gruul Turf and company) are all cards I'd watch out for bans of.

    Nexus is one of the hardest to remove infect sources, Spellskite makes things a lot harder to remove in general including some very problematic permanents that need removal to balance them, and become immense is particularly abusive in infect due to the way delve works in that deck. A's command and Skullcrack and Destructive Revelry are all particularly strong anti-hate in burn that doesn't cost them non-burning cards to play at surprisingly low mana costs, which makes it dangerously difficult to sideboard against burn. Snapcaster Mage has similar issues with it to Birthing Pod, it gets better the more playable low cost instants and sorceries are printed, and it is so cheap and decent with it's flash body as well that hate, such as graveyard hate, doesn't really fight it well. Deceiver Exarch and Village Bell-Ringer are the most resilient of targets for Splinter Twin, ones that can't get hit by a Volcanic Fallout or whatnot. Abrupt Decay may just be hating too hard on minor use of low cmc non-creature artifacts and enchantments and pushing tons of cards and potential strategies out of the format, and the Ravnica bounce-lands and SSG are the things I think are the best target for any anti-bloom bans to stop it's pre-turn-4 win reliability potential.


    From that list the only card I actually think will get banned is become immense. It enables turn 2 wins for infect which is just far too busted. Atarka's Command is a potential but we'll have to see just how strong burn gets after the set releases. I can also see worlds were Simian gets banned sadly since he does enable some of the more filthy combo stuff however these decks are either turn 4+ or stupidly inconsistent to justify a ban.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Jeskai Control / UWR Control
    Narset is no jace but she seems to get so much hate already. Pure control lists are running 26 lands and 4 snapcasters. Narset is exactly 50% to hit a spell and as you thin the deck with fetches this gets even better.

    At best she comes down, replaces herself and if your opponent has dudes in play acts as a fog. Untapping with her in play seems like an incredible position to be in. At worst you're so far behind that they ignore her but depending what you removed to play her in your deck you probably wouldn't do much better with the other card unless it was a wrath or something.

    I'm not sure what is so special about anticipate? It seems worse than telling time since you can only keep 1 card. With telling time you have 8 fetches to shuffle if you only want to keep 1 card. It seems like the upside of being able to keep 2 good cards is better than having to choose.

    I know it is considered a bad card but I prefer to just stick with think twice. It is actual card advantage even if it is expensive I almost never die with think twice still in my yard. Also plays well against Lilliana and discard.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Remove Soul and Essence Scatter
    For what it's worth remand is a very powerful counterspell. Against blue decks the ability to remand your own spell when they are countering it turns it into 1U counter target spell/draw a card. It is also a 1U/draw hard counter against a flashback effect and can really slow down a delved card.

    Spell snare is also a really great card even though it only hits specific cards. It has a ton of targets against burn, it's solid against affinity and any decks using snapcaster or counterspells. Even in bad matches it will have targets that are worthwhile. Being able to stop a t2 tarmogoyf, summer bloom or sylvan scrying when you're on the draw and couldn't otherwise is excellent even if there are not many other targets.


    Mana leak on the other hand... god I hate that card. Modern really needs a counter like disdainful stroke that counters spells of 3 or less. Perhaps that would be too strong. The way I see it control decks run plenty of answers to creatures (path/bolts/wrath) but far less answers (maindeck) to non creatures so I would rather just have counters for those and deal with the creatures after they resolve.
    Posted in: Modern
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