MTG Salvation

Organizing the relevant spoilers up to now and my opinion:

- Ayula's Influence : There's no way to curve into this in meaningful manner.
- Nether Spirit : A nice supplement to Ghasts. We definitely want one - possibly two, although it could require cutting Brownscales (funnily, Pharaoh works not horribly with it). The nice part is that it's good when the rest of the deck fizzle (whereas it's bad when it wins, so it's not a win-more card).
- Ruination Rioter : Seems very interesting due to the ability to hit face. I'm thinking of a line of turn 2 Conflagrate for 4, dredge and play this on turn 3, dredge loam, attack (in that order), get 3 lands and Conflag for 4 (splitting 2 damage to it if it wasn't blocked) for a total of something like 4 (1st conflag)+4 (2nd conflag plus attack should just do 2 of the damage in a different way) + at least 4 lands in yard = at least 12 dmg total. Given the ability of non-lands we run to generally push even more damage through with this sequence, I think this play is fast enough to consider 2-3 copies but it needs some testing to say for sure.

The question for me is: is Charm better than Hieroglyphic Illumination? In essence: is the flexibility of having more counters later on better than the flexibility of smoothing out land drops?

Blast Zone is reasonably impressive as a midrange strategy. It's not the strong boardswipe it appears to be (too much mana), but once you establish a topdeck war it often helps lock people out of their outs. To this end, it's even better with Despair, since the latter forces said topdeck war. I have actually replaced Pharaohs (which aren't very good against the multitude of oversized creatures we're nowadays hit with) with two copies of the land maindeck; this could be a mistake but has left me reasonably pleased, if nothing else because it reaches a critical land count for Loam without diluting the amount of interaction the deck can grind with.


The best play pattern in my experience so far with Zone is to find some time in the first 3 turns to deploy it, preferably on turn 3 (when you can also proceed to set it to 2 counters if low on gas). Thinking that you can get it back on demand with Loam later is a huge punt, because you won't have enough mana to do all the things you want to do.

Call the Bloodline is many times more powerful than Invasion (in a Loam+Squee deck that wants to actively discard things) and even that ended being a bit too slow (although it's fine in a bit slower metas). In the end, the things to ask for the grindy repeatable token generation cards are:
a) Can they help discard cards turn 2?
b) Are they much better than flashing back Lingering Souls? (because the latter will be dredged into fairly consistently)
c) Do they put enough power on the board quickly enough?
Bloodline fails only on the last point, whereas Invasion fails all 3 (!) .

Currently, the Driven//Despair package feels more like a necessary evil; I can't seem to get enough unfair things going on without it (modern is a competition at whose deck is more unfair at this point) but its effectiveness is high variance and sometimes I need two to win the game (which is why I maintain the 3rd copy).

On the other hand, Ironworks is no more, storm sees less play, creature decks are prevalent and Zone makes us want to increase our land count (it's a land) so I think it's a good time to try to find Pox version of the deck that works.

I get the impression that when people say that they hate the looting decks, they mostly mean Phoenix variants and then remember some non-oppressive archetype they don't like that utilizes it and throw it under the bus too.

I very much doubt looting would be ban-worthy without Phoenix or at least if the latter was legendary, which makes me think that the offender is actually Phoenix here.

I played the vials/risen reef list and managed to get a couple of 5-0s on MTGO and really liked it. This is the version I am currently running:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2174686#paper


Pro Reef:
- Strong matchup against grindy decks
- Strong plays involving phantasmal image and vials are possible, like attacking with 2 skelementals on turn 3.
harbinger gives more consistency and can fetch removal, card draw, action or unconditonal removal (for one turn - flickerwisp) and also silver bullets from the sideboard for land/artifact destruction or lifegain
- Not 100% relying on skelemental to win
- Draw from Reef can make up for the Card disadvantage of neonate and simian spirit guide

Cons:
- Less discard, makes combo decks harder, especially spell based ones
- Not as many turn 2 skelementals
- Less removal, harder to stop creature combos


I tried to neglect the cons in my list a bit my adding some lightning bolts, spirit guides and neonates in order to have a little more interaction with my opponents creatures or annoying planeswalkers (W6) and also increase the number of turn 2 skelemental attacks, while also keeping all of the pros. It's only 4,5$ to rent per week on cardhoarder for MTGO. I use their service to be able to play with a deck for a week or two whenever I want, and then cancel the subscription again.

A quick update about how my testing has been going. I have been having reasonable sucess with the list below:
Interesting games:

2-1 win VS. Infect (splashing white for Rest in Peace):
Game 1 - I darkblast his creatures and eventually killed him with zombie tokens, bloodghast and spirit tokens. I somehow managed to win G1 with no red lands.
Game 2 - 2x RiP. I managed to deal with the 1st one using nature's claim, but the 2nd was too much of a setback.
Game 3 - Turn 2 RiP, I untap, Destroy the RiP and darkblast his creature. I continue to darkblast his creatures until I kill him with tokens.

2-1 win VS. Hardened Scales Affinity
Game 1 - I grind him out with conflagrate and zombie infestation.
Game 2 - My lands deal too much damage to me, and he finishes me off with the typical affinity creatures, although I die 1 card short from stabilising with conflagrate.
Game 3 - I destroy his turn 1 hardened scales. I draw well and kill him with 4 bloodghasts and 4 spirits in play after about 20 turns of grinding.

Opinions on the deck

Overall, I quite like the current version im playing with, but I feel like it definitely need a bit more tweaking. I went down to 2 driven // despair since I was seeing it a bit too much for my liking. I included 1 raven's crime due to the popular UW Control and because it increases the number of keep-able opening hands (by targeting myself and discarding a dredge card on turn 1). Blast Zone performed very well, so I might go up to 2 copies. I'm still not sure about bojuka bog, so if Hogaark gets banned i'll definitely take them out.
I don't find myself needing to cast (or even side-in) heaven // earth very often so I plan on replacing it with a bojuka bog, ghost quarter/tectonic edge, flame jab or the 4th conflagrate/nature's claim.

Quote from LasseFuglsang »

Hi guys
I've never posted on this site, but have been following this thread for a long time (about 2015), and played many of the builds posted, and other versions aswell. Thx to maniospas and danr2000 for their dedication and thorough analyzes.

I would like to participate more in the discussions, and would support danr2000 idea of a reddit page. Furthermore I agree with maniospas about the general modern loam forums. They don't really discuss this exact deck and take on loam.

Well, enough from me. I just hope this thread can continue.

Wow, the fact you've been here so long is awesome! It'd be great to see you post a bit more often in the future .

So guys, ive created the community https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernZombieLoam/ and I would just like to say a few things:

- Any recommendations on how to make the page look nicer will be greatly appreciated, since i'm not very good at aesthetics lmao.

- I've finished uni for the summer, so that means ill have loads of time to work on making the forum as good as I can.

- I was thinking about eventually including a stock list, a detailed primer, an updated sideboard guide, links to Levy's original Zombie Loam articles and obviously, a link to the archived mtg salvation forum.

I've DM'ed you maniospas, so just send me a message and ill mod you

Finally, this is the first time I have managed a forum like this, so please let me know what you guys think I should include/change.

EDIT: I was just browsing Reddit and found this interesting post https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/ausyfb/anybody_playing_zombie_loam/

2nd EDIT: Wow, turns out Raphael Levy wasn't the first guy to come up with the deck idea https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/222960-under-renovation-zombie-loam

Hi guys
I've never posted on this site, but have been following this thread for a long time (about 2015), and played many of the builds posted, and other versions aswell. Thx to maniospas and danr2000 for their dedication and thorough analyzes.

I would like to participate more in the discussions, and would support danr2000 idea of a reddit page. Furthermore I agree with maniospas about the general modern loam forums. They don't really discuss this exact deck and take on loam.

Well, enough from me. I just hope this thread can continue.

The rate on Lava Dart is actually pretty bad: 1 mana and sac a land to do a total of 2 damage. Forked Bolt does this without the land sac at sorcery speed. It does get better with prowess guys since they care about spells being cast, and works very well with The Flame of Keld since you can flash it back if it's discarded, and you get to double Bolt them if you draw it before the third lore counter.

Sample Dart Prowess list:
Mishra's Bauble is pretty good at hiding cards from Flame's ETB and triggering prowess/Archer. (Thermo-Alchemist, Electrostatic Field and Young Pyromancer don't trigger on Bauble, Seal, or Flame). This deck has a combo-like finish once you get the third counter on Flame, whereupon all your 1-damage burn spells and Archer suddenly become Bolts.

Quote from Kathal »

Quote from Bearscape »

I had a reply but I'm not satisfied with how I worded it so I'm going to think about it a bit more.

In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".

When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.

The difference is: In Mirrodin Block you could run 4x Oxidize, 4x Shatter and 4x Viridian Shaman MD and it would STILL be NOT enough to deal with the Artefact decks. That is beyond levels of a broken metagame. Heck, even after the bannings Kataki, War's Wage was basically a must play, since the Artefact decks were still that freaking good.

However, does anybody run even close to 6+ graveyard hate pieces in the MD atm? No, the most you see is either the 2 off Surgical or Nihil Spellbomb which you can play the playset of, cause in the worst case it cycles for 2 mana, which is below Modern standards but it still does something. Ooze is a special case, since you profit from creatures in general in the graveyard, but it is more often than not to slow to stop things like Dredge or a fast Phoenix draw, hence, it is better in the slower, removal heavy match-ups. Kaya is similar, although better in the Phoenix match-up since the decks which play her have access to good removal and thus can even exile the Phoenixes after they hit you once/twice. That she has also other applications (e.g vs Hardening Scale, or as mini lifegain vs Burn) makes her a more all-arounder instead of being a very specific interaction card like Surgical.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to play pre RTR Modern again, since it was the by far most fun I ever had in Modern. Playing Gifts Storm with Seething Song (Increasing Vengeance is hella strong with Song), RUG Delver with Shackles and Cryptics or even Kiki Pod was so much fun. What makes it even better was, that of those decks where pretty darn good, but all either faded away due to an evolving metagame (Delver), or ate a ban (or two).

Holistic speaking, it was probably the most balanced and exciting Modern format I ever had the fortune to both play and watch, but than again, time went on.

Greetings,
Kathal

My point is that people adapting does not immediately mean a format is healthy. The red thread of Modern has become that it's better to be linear and be hard to interact with than to try to interact. Triggering Phoenix off casting Surgical Extraction is one thing, but when UW runs mainboard Surgical, a card with virtually no text except against the decks where you basically need it in your opener because your deck of counterspells and removal doesn't really interact well, I say the format is warped. Benjamin Nikolich is running 3 mainboard Relics in his Snapcaster deck!

Another example of a format being beatable but still warped would be the Vintage metagame, where everyone's sideboard and some mainboard has to greatly invest into beating Dredge. Dredge isn't broken in Vintage, it's not even the best deck, but you really need to be ok with half the cards in your deck being textless in many matchups to enjoy playing it.

The format adapts and so do my decklists (to be on a more positive note, Narset and Ashiok from WAR are fantastic additions to Modern) but that does not mean I have to be happy with how the format adapts. And although there is no real single broken deck in the format, the type of strategy you should be playing if your sole intent is spiking a big tournament is, in my opinion, incredibly miserable and unfun.

so I have fallen hard into testing with Domri, Anarch of Bolas, and I really think the payoff is nice. Hes an extra mana per turn and an anthem effect. I feel like he fits really well here but I could see him being too slow or low impact.

Phoenix reaching 20% of the metagame at day 2 of both GPs is starting to look troublesome.

As others pointed out, Faithless Looting (and Ancient Stirrings) are played in a wide variety of decks, so the problem must lie elsewhere, and it's the ability to get free effects: drawing cards for free, free mana acceleration, getting damage for free and most importantly, getting creatures (which are recurrent sources of damage after all) for free.

Possible solutions would be banning more (or all of them) of these free effects; printing better hate for them (Containment Priest, Planar Void...), or going the opposite direction and generalizing them: free life gain, free removal, free counterspells... In my opinion, this kind of effects belong in Legacy and not Modern, so if Modern Horizons can't stop them, I'd start to think about bans.

Quote from jayjayhooks »

Is it though? Hitting a miracle 15% and less of the time is worth giving up an extra scry 100% of the time? If this was even close to true legacy miracles players have been making a huge mistake for years playing 4 Ponder before 4 Portent. Except they haven't, because even the much higher 22% of hitting a miracle is still an abysmal gamble to build a strategy around. It's better to access the card that is going to be better most of the time. You should play and choose cards based around what they do most of the time, not what they can do a tiny fraction of the time.

Ponder is nowhere near the same thing as SV. The problem with SV is the blind draw before you scry. With Ponder, if a Terminus is in the top 3 cards of your library, you can put it second from the top and draw another card with Ponder's draw. Then, on your opponent's turn you used to be able to activate your Top's draw ability, or now you could Brainstorm, or put it 3 down and cast Predict so the first draw on that is Terminus, or put it on top with a Portent so you get the miracle trigger on your opponent's upkeep. Legacy Miracles plays like 7 instant speed cantrips, and Ponder will only blind draw a Terminus if you have to shuffle. Even then, it's not as bad for them because they have Brainstorm in the format to put it back more easily. That is not true of Serum Visions, and is why it is not good in a Modern Miracles deck. You're seeing 3 cards with SV, but one of the cards you're seeing can't miracle, while you're seeing 2 with Opt and they can both miracle. So in terms of potential cards that could miracle, they're the same, but the difference comes when you take into account that SV can reduce the number of successes in the population, while Opt never will.

I went 3-1 with the list I posted yesterday: R1 vs Blue Moon with Kiki (2-1)
G1 he systematically clears my board with Burn spells and takes the offensive with double Snaps into Burn to finish me off.
G2/G3 I out-value him with Voice, Gaddock, Bugler and Rallier while holding back threats to play around Anger of the Gods. Spellskite ends up winning the match by keeping him off the combo via redirecting Pestermite's untap ability and giving me another turn to swing in.

R2 vs Storm (2-0)
G1 Dork into back-to-back Reflector Mages to bounce Baral and then Electromancer next turn. Evolved a Voice into Shalai which he cleared a couple turns later with Grapeshot-Remand-Grapeshot. Fortunately he'd fetched suboptimally so he was one R short of being able to combo out and I killed him with beats next turn.
G2 is hazy, I mull down to 4 but convert it into a combo on ~T4 after he fails to find a mana bear.

R3 vs Burn (1-2)
Super close games. Similar to the Blue Moon matchup the package of Voice, Bugler, and Rallier help me keep a reasonably aggressive board presence and buy me time to evolve into Shalai. This worked well one of the games, but G3 he hit double Eidolon and I had a grip full of 2-3 CMC spells without removal, allowing him to edge me out of the game.

R4 vs Infect (2-0)
G1 I wasn't sure what the opponent was on and kept a 6 with double Bird and double Oath, which converted to Cobra and T4 combo win
G2 I kept a hand with Path, Hierarch, Reflector, and Evo. Bounced his early Glistener, Path'd his Inkmoth, and then evolved Hierarch into Spellskite to lock the game down.

Thoughts:

Dorks - 3 Bird / 3 Hierarch / 3 Cobra felt great. Reliable ramp most of the night and didn't flood out. Blue Moon did land a 3-for-1 Electrolyze hitting Hierarch and Cobra but Rallier subsequently rez-ing Cobra next turn kept this from being a blow-out.

Bugler - nal2's changes have addressed most of my issues with Bugler. I really liked the split of 2 Bugler in the main and 2 in the side.

Rallier - Far from being just a "monkey card", Rallier was key to a lot of important tempo plays, kept 2 CMC hate cards such as Skite on the board, and felt worth including even as a Bugler whiff and RIP nonbo. 2 feels like the right number.

Mainboard Spellskite - MVP of the night by securing two matches, though I have more Infect in my meta than most.

Stonehorn Dignitary - I landed this once vs Burn but I had already walled off his creatures so it just felt a little win-more. I can still see it being good, but I'm a little soft to Burn so this slot might get shuffled around to something like Huntmaster of the Fells. I've been kinda medium on Huntmaster in the past since we can't control his flip very well, but his current synergy with Bugler and Lark, combined with the the value of him generating non-graveyard dependent card advantage and help to the Burn matchup might make him worth revisiting.

4x Felidar Guardian - I understand nal2's argument to run 3, and it's true that I drew a couple mediocre Felidars, but for now I will stick with the set if only to maximize combo rates.

Voice vs Wall - I think you could justify either option right now. All of the 2+ power creatures -- including Voice -- combine to make beats a very real plan B, which won me several games that I don't think I would've won if I'd had Wall instead. After previously getting walloped by some really aggressive lists like Shadow where I was dying with cards in hand I was happy to have Voice’s double block back in the list over Wall’s block + draw.

Reveillark - Copying Lark with Saheeli and rez-ing Bugler + Cobra helped win a game vs Blue Moon. I think I still like it in the side since it's a little slower and not a Bugler hit, running the 3rd Reflector MB over Lark.

Eidolon of Rhetoric - I cut Eidolon because (1) this is a more explosive combo-focused list and Eidolon hurts our own tempo enough that I found myself bringing it in for relatively few matchups outside of Storm-type combo lists, on top of that (2) I hadn't seen as much Storm/KCI locally so Eidolon had been really rotting in the board, and (3) this list had 2x Path, 2x Gaddock, 2x RIP, and Shalai vs Storm and all of that plus Stony (minus Shalai) vs KCI so we aren't completely unprepared for those matchups. Of course, the night that I cut Eidolon I have 2 Storm decks and a KCI deck show up ^_^;. But the Storm match went well tonight so for now I feel vindicated... Maybe it's worth having Eidolon as the final nail on those matchups, but there may be other matchups that need the attention more, such as Burn.