Force of despair also slows down Phoenix, albeit temporarily, and sets up a surgical nicely. Also cleanly answers empty the warrens, goryos vengeance, big elf or affinity turns, 8 whack, multiple lingering souls castings... This has the potential, though not guaranteed, to have more impact than the blue force.
What do you think about MD LD?
Because we also vulnerable to new Karn-Lattice and Simian Spirit Guide + Vandalblast is not a way out.
Can we handle one GQ/Field of Ruin, what do you think?
Or just keep MD Blood Moons and hope for the best?
I think despark is a bit more versatile of a consideration, possibly MD depending on meta, but definitely SB. There are no instant speed LD effects available to my knowledge, where as despark allows you to float mana and then cast, similar to GBx abrupt decaying a blood moon from twin many metas ago. Itd be so much easier an inclusion if it was 3 cmc or more instead of 4, but wishes are useless. Ah well.
The general vibe ive seen from black-based discard players, myself included, is that its too slow in todays Modern. Discard is always at its best early, and the earliest this can do you any good is main phase turn 2, and it only gets slower trying to get more value outta him by waiting for elemental/spirit tokens to show up. If you get them on turn 3 (casting souls or pyro plus spell) it means you cant sac em till the turn after. And remember, this is with spending turn 1 commiting to therapist and not thoughtseizing. Storm has already stormed, Tron has already tronned, Ad has already Nauseamed, Valakut has already Molten Pinnacled (or is close enough that it doesnt matter) If the format slows down, like maybe Modern Horizens has in store, then i will revisit my analysis.
Bedevil seems like an... ok... sideboard option, definitely no more than a one-of. The flexibility is nice, i agree, but 3 cmc IS a lot. You also run into the "what does it replace" problem. Its not a true stand in for stony silence, abrade is a full turn faster which is a huge deal vs aggro, etc. I personally wouldnt fault someone for have a singleton somewhere in the 75, but i dont think its stellar by any stretch, anguished unmaking would be the closest comparison that also sees little to no play.
Great Article. With running 23 lands. Many times I have a hand with bob and discard. The discard takes the removal and then bob lives one turn to draw me into the 3rd land on curve. Tracker is great (i play both) but Bob is guaranteed card if he lives. He doesn't ask for anything more.
Hard disagree. Bob loves nothing more than to punch you in the face, especially when youre at low life. This is not me saying not to run him, this is not me calling him weak, I am simply acknowledging the abusing relationship i have with that man.
I readily admit to ashiok being a pet card, though the matches it comes in for tend to drag to the point that the slowness is off set. I really do like Last Hope, particularly if the meta calls for it. She has a lot of utility across different matchups, and has no inherent tension with the stubs i run. Main it if your LGS is loaded with aggro, midrange and control, SB it if not, in my opinion.
As a simplified answer to your first question, yes, card selection and snap redundancy are my personal draws to sultai over jund or abzan. I actually ran flayer for a while, packing 3x architects of will for delerium support. I can dig the list out if your interested, but the readers digest version of test8ng results was that flayer is ok when not buffed, awesome when he is buffed, and going all in on graveyard based creatures is a huge liability when dredge exists. It sucks to have all your threats basically shut down or turned into bears because all the combo/grave hate incidentally hoses you too.
Confidant vs tracker is a bit of a false choice. Theres no reason you cant run them together, and theres nothing that says if you run one you HAVE to run the other. They occupy different cmc slots and shine in different, though sometimes overlapping, situations. The real choice you have to make is confidant vs delve threats. These are mutually exclusive and have very different pros and cons. I prefer tasigur and/or gurmag over bob due to damage output and incidentally turning on ferocious for stubborn denial, but theres that graveyard problem again. Bob gives zero craps about the yard, and needs no set up to cast efficiently, but he dies to everything, only swings for 2, and loves to punch you in the face. I could definitely see a case where goyf, scooze, bob, tracker and jace are your threats, which would almost completely insulate you from grave hate. It seems like as much a personal preference as a meta call.
As far as other blue cards that would draw you to sultai over the other GBx's, again, please test out stub in a build that can reasonably have it turned on against the field. Black based midrange excels against creature decks naturally, struggles against big mana, and leans heavily on discard and lily vs combo. Having a 1 mana answer to scapeshift, gifts ungiven, krark clan ironworks, ad nauseam, karn, ugin, o stone, collective company, and whatever else degenerate nonsense is out there, is a huge stick to be carrying around. Not to mention randomly being able to say no to a turn one thoughtseize, or aether vial, or looting. You crush dreams by hitting those, and that my friend, is why were here.
Edit: Ashiok in the sideboard is also a pet card. Not saying he/she is good, but fun against creature decks and midrange. Specially coco decks. And blue tron.... yes, i WOULD like to play you platinum angel. Thank you for asking.
Edit II: May i aslo say, this has been the best damn conversation regarding magic, sultai in particular, that ive had in months. Thank you for he intelligent questions and constructive feedback. Maybe we can jumpstart an archetype here.
Thanks, you've been really clear on the two alternative choices you have to build the deck and on why Thing doesn't fit a midrange plan.
I approached this archetype with an idea in my mid, which is this should have a similar amount of card advantage engines almost as high as jund decks do ( I say jund because it's been so much tested over the years). So they usually have 11 advantage tools, which are confidants, BBe, K command. Is this parameter something that Sultai should take into consideration aswell? Is it something you should start from while building the list, like asking yourself: " what are going to be my card advantage tools and how many of them do I want?".
I have seen a recent vid from reid duke runing ancestral visions ( guess a bit of a nonbo when you open discard spell + vision), I ve been intrigued by that choice. What are the card advantage tools in this deck?
My pleasure, friend.
Im not sure that Sulati needs as much raw card advantage (from here on in refered to as C Adv) as Jund. Midranges flexibility depends on drawing the right half of your deck at any given match, depending on your match up. The best way to maximize the chances of finding that half is to draw as many cards as you can get away with, hence the C Adv engines) The card selection (lets go with C Sel) available to Sultai largly mitigate that need by being able to filter through your deck with serum or recycle useful cards in the yard with snap. If you can manage the double blue of Vendillion Clique, then the reverse card selection is nice too. (Dont underestimate that double blue in BGu lists) That said, i personally like 3 snaps and 3 tireless trackers for raw C Adv, and 4 visions and 2-3 collective brutality for C Sel. Brutality is of particular note, as it lets you convert the wrong half of your deck (removal vs UW, discard vs affinity, etc) into more useful effects.
Regarding ancestral visions, i dont personally run it, but the case could definitely be made for it in a slowish meta. And if shardless agent ever finds its way into modern (not as impossible as i used to think. WotC is toying with the idea of supplemental products introducing cards into modern while bypassing standard) then it will most likely define the deck.
Hi TheAller, I've been thinking of a Sultai list and I've heard you have really to decide whether you want to play with discard or counterspells, do you think counterspells are superior in this shell?
Are 4x push necessary when you also have 6x trophy and decays?
I very much like the 4 surgical, i think 4 surgincal + 4 snap can really provide good hate against graveryard and combo decks, so since you have this option and a lot of deck manipulation, don't you feel a couple field of ruins necessary to make the surgical even better.
Two more questions: how do you feel about unmoored ego against combo and tron?
Since you have this insane amount of instant and sorceries, how would you feel about playing thing in the ice in replacement of tarmogoyf? I can see thing having a good synergy with snapcaster too.
Ok, in order:
If youre going to run the big green beaters that have made BGx successful, then you are going to want discard over permission. There are some permission based sultai lists out there, but they usually forgo creatures in lieu of olaneswalkers and manlands as wincons. The issue is sorcery speed yhreats dont play well with holding up mana. That leaves you with either BGu midrange with blue for snap, serum, and sideboard permission, or BUg with green for trophy, decay, and sideboard artifact and enchantment hate. I believe the only possible exception to this is stubborn denial. One could make the case that at 1 cmc and all the creatures you run turning it on, its a fine 2 or 3 of in lists not running LotV. It works for deaths shadow, after all.
The fatal push count is a meta call. If you expect a bunch of aggro or midrange then you cant beat 1 cmc. If its combo, big mana and control, then 3 is fine. Having visions and snap to get the most out of your list goes a long way.
Im with you on the surgical plan. Having a build-your-own slaughter games that also hits land is powerful game. Ego's advantage of hitting thing proactively is largly diminished (in my humble opinion) by the 3 drop cmc. Storm can go off, dredge can flood the board, tron can do tron things, all within that time. Its great for kci, but i like extract snap extract better.
Thing is a great card, but you would need to add a lot more cantrips (read:empty air) to an archetype that wants to function optimally in a topdeck war. Midrange needs to be able to turn the corner from control to beat down on a dime to function well. Flexibility is paramount. I feel that a card like titi needs too much support to be viable in midrange. But feel free to prove me wrong, i would love to be wrong.
As one moves away from blood moon, and adding helix as a hedge against burn and other aggro, is Boros Charm unreasonable? As a one or two of? My train of thought is; it adds more pressure to the life total, while contemporaneously (<-- winning at scrabble) doubling as a counter to sweepers. I accept that it may just be too cute, or not worth whatever we're taking out, but id like your thoughts.
While i haven't had the chance to thoroughly test my current discard/stub build, i fully intend to do so once i get my playset of trophies. My working theory is to follow the template Grixis Death Shadow laid out, minus the lifeloss and empty cycling. Id like you to walk me through why you dont think the discard into fatty threat into "protect the queen" with stubs wont work, and please understand that im not being snide or dismissive. I would genuinely like an outside perspective, yours in particular.
I think despark is a bit more versatile of a consideration, possibly MD depending on meta, but definitely SB. There are no instant speed LD effects available to my knowledge, where as despark allows you to float mana and then cast, similar to GBx abrupt decaying a blood moon from twin many metas ago. Itd be so much easier an inclusion if it was 3 cmc or more instead of 4, but wishes are useless. Ah well.
Hard disagree. Bob loves nothing more than to punch you in the face, especially when youre at low life. This is not me saying not to run him, this is not me calling him weak, I am simply acknowledging the abusing relationship i have with that man.
Confidant vs tracker is a bit of a false choice. Theres no reason you cant run them together, and theres nothing that says if you run one you HAVE to run the other. They occupy different cmc slots and shine in different, though sometimes overlapping, situations. The real choice you have to make is confidant vs delve threats. These are mutually exclusive and have very different pros and cons. I prefer tasigur and/or gurmag over bob due to damage output and incidentally turning on ferocious for stubborn denial, but theres that graveyard problem again. Bob gives zero craps about the yard, and needs no set up to cast efficiently, but he dies to everything, only swings for 2, and loves to punch you in the face. I could definitely see a case where goyf, scooze, bob, tracker and jace are your threats, which would almost completely insulate you from grave hate. It seems like as much a personal preference as a meta call.
As far as other blue cards that would draw you to sultai over the other GBx's, again, please test out stub in a build that can reasonably have it turned on against the field. Black based midrange excels against creature decks naturally, struggles against big mana, and leans heavily on discard and lily vs combo. Having a 1 mana answer to scapeshift, gifts ungiven, krark clan ironworks, ad nauseam, karn, ugin, o stone, collective company, and whatever else degenerate nonsense is out there, is a huge stick to be carrying around. Not to mention randomly being able to say no to a turn one thoughtseize, or aether vial, or looting. You crush dreams by hitting those, and that my friend, is why were here.
Edit: Ashiok in the sideboard is also a pet card. Not saying he/she is good, but fun against creature decks and midrange. Specially coco decks. And blue tron.... yes, i WOULD like to play you platinum angel. Thank you for asking.
Edit II: May i aslo say, this has been the best damn conversation regarding magic, sultai in particular, that ive had in months. Thank you for he intelligent questions and constructive feedback. Maybe we can jumpstart an archetype here.
My pleasure, friend.
Im not sure that Sulati needs as much raw card advantage (from here on in refered to as C Adv) as Jund. Midranges flexibility depends on drawing the right half of your deck at any given match, depending on your match up. The best way to maximize the chances of finding that half is to draw as many cards as you can get away with, hence the C Adv engines) The card selection (lets go with C Sel) available to Sultai largly mitigate that need by being able to filter through your deck with serum or recycle useful cards in the yard with snap. If you can manage the double blue of Vendillion Clique, then the reverse card selection is nice too. (Dont underestimate that double blue in BGu lists) That said, i personally like 3 snaps and 3 tireless trackers for raw C Adv, and 4 visions and 2-3 collective brutality for C Sel. Brutality is of particular note, as it lets you convert the wrong half of your deck (removal vs UW, discard vs affinity, etc) into more useful effects.
Regarding ancestral visions, i dont personally run it, but the case could definitely be made for it in a slowish meta. And if shardless agent ever finds its way into modern (not as impossible as i used to think. WotC is toying with the idea of supplemental products introducing cards into modern while bypassing standard) then it will most likely define the deck.
Ok, in order:
If youre going to run the big green beaters that have made BGx successful, then you are going to want discard over permission. There are some permission based sultai lists out there, but they usually forgo creatures in lieu of olaneswalkers and manlands as wincons. The issue is sorcery speed yhreats dont play well with holding up mana. That leaves you with either BGu midrange with blue for snap, serum, and sideboard permission, or BUg with green for trophy, decay, and sideboard artifact and enchantment hate. I believe the only possible exception to this is stubborn denial. One could make the case that at 1 cmc and all the creatures you run turning it on, its a fine 2 or 3 of in lists not running LotV. It works for deaths shadow, after all.
The fatal push count is a meta call. If you expect a bunch of aggro or midrange then you cant beat 1 cmc. If its combo, big mana and control, then 3 is fine. Having visions and snap to get the most out of your list goes a long way.
Im with you on the surgical plan. Having a build-your-own slaughter games that also hits land is powerful game. Ego's advantage of hitting thing proactively is largly diminished (in my humble opinion) by the 3 drop cmc. Storm can go off, dredge can flood the board, tron can do tron things, all within that time. Its great for kci, but i like extract snap extract better.
Thing is a great card, but you would need to add a lot more cantrips (read:empty air) to an archetype that wants to function optimally in a topdeck war. Midrange needs to be able to turn the corner from control to beat down on a dime to function well. Flexibility is paramount. I feel that a card like titi needs too much support to be viable in midrange. But feel free to prove me wrong, i would love to be wrong.
Hope any of this helps.