i wish we'd quit comparing the two, since they fit in such different contexts. elspeth is powerful in mid-range creature decks; jace works wonders in heavy control builds using 2 or 3 very specific win mechanisms (sphinx, celestial colonnade, luminarch, MAYBE jace's ultimate.)
in a mid-range deck, the constant board advantage elspeth generates is more useful.
in a slow control deck, jace's card control/advantage options are way, way more useful. the two are different, play differently & opponents respond to them differently, but in a control context, you can insta-speed answer planeswalker hate--whereas in a mid-range deck, there is very little that you can do about an oblivion ring, pulse or earthquake (save for dropping another eslpeth, or maybe o-ring the o-ring.)
What you're getting at is the "apples and oranges' scenario. But the original point remains valid:
Quote from metamorph »
Jace is clearly a card that is so powerful that your opponent loses to it if he cannot answer it. Its gonna be almost impossible for an opponent to ignore your Jace and beat you anyway.
Can you honestly say that you can ignore Jace, Elspeth, Ajani V., or any other plainswalker and still think you will win? Jace, the Mind Sculptor is another tool that Blue mages can use to enhance their decks. He just happens to be an extremely powerful tool with not just one useful ability, but three (disregarding, for the sake of argument, his ultimate). I only saw one Jace drawn in the Pre-Release that I attended. I don't recall how well that player did the rest of the day, but when I sat anywhere near him early in the day, dropping Jace either won him the game, or saw Jace getting attacked until gone. You can't just leave him in play. He must be answered,ASAP, or you will find yourself under a huge disadvantage.
Bottom line: Can Jace win the game by himself? Not unless your opponent is retarded enough to let him reach his Ultimate ability. Is he a tool that will make decks running Islands better able to win those games? Damned right he is!
@Everyone that wants Counterspell back: Keep wishing.
Wizards has said, and fairly repeatedly, over the past several years that UU hard counters are a thing of the past. I continue to disagree with that policy but it seems written in fairly solid stone. That being said....MaRo just loves to break the rules, right.....just wishful thinking, though.
I don't know if anyone is really interested, or really cares...but...there was a nice article on ChannelFireball regarding this issue. It lays out the two, apparently different, views of the incident, then clearly explains why Gindy still deserved disqualification. I found the article rather helpful in understanding the entire episode. Sometimes, a player ends up "cheating" without actually realizing that what he does (or sometimes "doesn't" do, as in this case) is cheating.
I feel bad for the rest of Team USA, and for the rest of the U.S. MtG players around the country (myself included) since now our team has no chance to compete for the team title. <sigh>
Oh, and I disagree, if the meta is 60% or more black, why would you not main board black hate?
If my FNM is 10 people big, and I know 8 of them play vampires, even if I run a soldier deck why wouldn't I put in every black hate creature into it, regardless of whether or not it's a soldier? It obviously got that deck to the top 8 so why even attempt to knock it?
I won this past Friday Night at FNM with a fairly stock Soldier list. I kept my 4x Lightcasters and 4x Purges in the SB and was glad I did. While I expected to see plenty of Jund and Vampires, I did not expect to play only one round against a deck sporting Swamps (the aforementioned Vamps) in five rounds of Swiss!
Instead, I faced two mirror matches (?), a Bant-Style control build and a UW hybrid of Soldiers and Control (stayed alive until casting Iona. Under the circumstances, main-decking a total of eight "anti-black" spells would have been rather awkward.
If you know ahead of time that everyone's running black, then by all means go with the hate cards. Otherwise, I think 2-4 White Knight would be enough for the Main.
Yeah I don't know why i didnt put equipment in there, but i know i meant to. This deck operates on a completely different strategy than the threads you linked. I think it warrants its own. Maybe I should have included that it was an equipment based aggro in the thread name, but w/e. REVISED LIST.
First: 4x Adventuring Gear and 4x Trusty Machete are much better than 2x, 2x and any Bone Saws. +2/+2 for Landfall or outright +2/+1 is simply more aggro than +1/0, in spite of the slight increase in mana cost. Sorry.
Second: While you may think that this deck is different, it still runs mostly the same set(s) of spells that any other mono-White Kor list would run (at least one that features Armament Master. Many of the cards are also run in both of the decks that Mind Game was kind enough to provide links to. While it may not be the same, card for card, the general idea of the deck is the same. There are already those two threads, plus one for Kor/Armament Master style decks. There is really nothing particularly unique about your list. Again, sorry.
I don't know that FNM circuit is the name they should use... because to many FNM is all about budget decks, and random ideas you just want to play. I know some people at my local FNM who build a new deck every week.
Guys...I know that every FNM is different, buuuuuut........Not every FNM is like yours. The store that I play at has the usual newer players, playing their pet decks. But it also has the guys that play at the PTQ's, playing their latest versions of the top decks. This is the store that Shin plays at in when he's not away at school. And the store that he plays at when he is away at school is even stronger, having some of the best players in West Michigan playing there. You can talk about budget decks being played at FNM's all you want, but if you want to consistently have good results, you'd better be playing with better cards and better decks.
I think that the new forums are about the best that the mods could come up with. Let's give them a chance to get them organized and see how they work before we start nit-picking them apart.
well in my meta that turn one bane slayer angle does come up alot so my next question is this should this be a 4 of in a token based r/w control deck?
The meta is largely irrelevant. If you are playing W, then you should be playing 4 copies of PtE. It remains one of the best removal spells currently in Standard.
I would have to agree with Darthyip and take his comment one step further. Devour has never been competitive since the release of Shards. It's been a fun trick for Limited events, and such, but the only two cards that I can think of that have made it into Constructed decks would be the aforementioned Predator Dragon and Caldera Hellion. There have not been any dedicated Devour decks that have had any competitive success that I ever heard of.
The "It dies to everything" argument does matter when the "everything" you are describing all cost less than the card that they are killing or 2 for 1's it. At first, there was a format where there was no mana or card efficient answer to Baneslayer, and it was insane. Then the meta shifted to more Paths/Doomblades/Pulses/etc, and you had to work to set up the card.
The issue I see next season is that Baneslayer dies to a lot of things in a way that causes you to lose value, but at the same time those cards that do that lose a lot of value against the prevalent threats in block (Uril, Bloodbraid, Thrinax, Enlisted Wurm, Broodmate, Wall of Denial). So, if people want to beat those cards, they will be bad against Angel, and visa versa. Dodging Blast is pretty huge. If only it beat a Wall of Denial......
Ari, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Chris and I have had this discussion many times when evaluating a new creature coming out. My problem is with those who continue to claim that a particular creature is "bad" because it dies to removal. I guess I'm just sick and tired of posts and posters that abuse that line without understanding the implications (which you explain quite adequately ;)). The actual poster that I was responding to even mentioned that he would gladly pay $40 a pop for Baneslayer when "Wizards gives her shroud". Yeah, right. That's just wishful thinking on his part, obviously. But it kind of illustrates a point. Has the recent power creep made us expect too much from our creatures? Has Goyf simply spoiled things for every other potentially good creature that gets printed?
Its seems you have a problem with competitive players complaining about casual players in the competitive forum, so now you have a place where casual players can be casual and Competitive players can be competitive...seems pretty smart to me.
i beleive thats what the first standard forum is for.
i like where this is going, and hope it works out. However, i think one of the problems is that your technicaly understaffed. Especially since it seems that Shin (and rightfully so) is losing interest in this website.
I see you've noticed. In his defense, he has gone back to school for his second year at GVSU. But I would readily agree that he does not read or post as often here as he used to. However, I would not characterize that as being due to any perceived "lack of interest" in the website. His problem, one that I share, is that the Competitive Forums have deteriorated so dramatically over the past months that reading them has become a chore, at times. He, or sometimes I, would post some comment to help a discussion along or move it in another direction only to have mindless, spammy replies posted from various quarters. It gets old extremely fast.
I, for one, welcome these coming changes and commend the Mods. They have a largely thankless job, as is apparent from some of the comments on this very thread. There has been a serious problem with deteriorating quality on the Competitive Threads for some time. They saw a serious problem, worked out what they hope will be a series of solutions, and now they will impliment said solutions. For myself, I will likely read both the PT and the FNM forums, since I usually like to play either a Tier 1, or 1.5 type of deck. I like to win....so sue me. That does not make me an "elitist". It makes me someone who loves the game, but likes to win once in a while. Let's give these changes a chance. It appears as if considerable thought went into them. Giving them that time is the least we can do for an improvement in the Standard Forums.
I dont see what the big deal is.Ill pay 40$ when she gets shroud or when wizards stop printing romoval spells (she dies to everything).
Duh, so does Goyf. Yet it still remains one of the best creatures ever printed for this game. I'm not trying to compare the two...you can't. I'm just saying that the "she dies to everything" argument is rather lame. Everything in the game dies to something. Those who are pointing out how good she is in UW Control decks have it correct. Stick a Baneslayer, protect her for a couple of turns, and the game will be over.
Hey i just started following standard and was wondering how rotation scheduals usually work Is is usually once a year as the first expansion of a new core set comes out or is it more frequent?
Just check out the Stickies on this very Forum regarding the October rotation. They explain it quite well.
SCG can't keep any in stock because there haven't been enough of them printed. As more print runs are released, the supply will increase. They will also become harder to play come October. Right now, any deck can splash to add her in. When the Vivids/Filters/Reflecting Pool rotate out, she'll only be able to fit into decks that are playing white as a main or secondary color. There is absolutely no way that the card hits fifty dollars. That would be the most expensive single card since Legends.
If you read Ben's post, you would know that the problem is less a matter of "not enough printed" to everyone wants them and no one will part with them. Sure, additional print runs will mean more supply, but if you think that will have a major impact on the demand, and therefore the price, then I think you are in for a surprise. Oh, and 3WW is not that hard to come by now, nor will it be come October. Finally, you are aware that Tarmogoyf was priced at $50 for quite a while when it was in Standard, don't you? Again, I am going by SCG's prices for both cards, not comparing apples and oranges from different sites. Besides, the $50 talk was from Ben, not my idea.
baneslayers price will tank once it leaves standard. In terms of being a reliable investment in the long term it is nothing like Tarmogoyf which sees lots of play in extended and both eternal formats. Baneslayer on the other hand is essentially unplayable in vintage/legacy and doesn't have a deck in extended.
And just how does that matter to the discussion here? The OP wanted to know what cards to get NOW, not a year or more from now. If Baneslayer does not make the cut for Magic 2011 next year, that still means that it will be legal in Standard until October 2010, over a year away. I really don't give a damn that the price might "tank once it leaves Standard", we are talking about Standard now and after the coming rotation. Your whole point becomes, well, pointless, if Baneslayer is included in M11, doesn't it?
Why do these threads that ask a reasonable question almost always degenerate into "X is overpriced", why is X so expensive", etc. The OP asked what cards he should work on aquiring from Shards Block and M10. The answer, if he wants to play any deck running White mana, should include the best White cards...which include Baneslayer Angel. This is not rocket science. It's just simple logic.
i'd wait on the baneslayers, overpriced right now because of the shortage =/ great staple card but wait until it drops in price.
The only problem with that line of thinking is the same problem that Tarmogoyf posed...the longer you wait to aquire them, the higher the price gets. The price of Baneslayer Angel has done nothing but increase since it's July introduction. Ben Bleiweiss was kind enough to mention in another Standard Thread that SCG cannot even obtain enough Baneslayers to fill any kind of demand right now. He speculated that the price could quite possibly hit $50, or more, by Christmas (unless another impact creature arrives with Zendikar). I seriously don't see the price of the angel dropping any time soon. Right now the best 5-drop in Standard is, at least arguably, Reveillark, but that will be changing in another month when that whole overpowered super-block rotates.
I can see by your post that you are a spike player I am not really looking for a competitive deck.:facepalm:
My aim is to build a 60 card pre-con-ish deck that makes sense (or a beginner deck) with the essential rares from m10, then upgrade it over time with the upcomming sets. Of course, it will be incomplete or full of fillers before the next few sets but I am only playing casual and draft
However, I do not want a blightning aggro or quick aggro beat down or red deck wins kind of deck that require no strategy or playskill (I have tried them all:rolleyes:)
So what are the blue cards in m10 that are worth adding to my deck ?
I want to qualify this reply by saying first, that I'm not trying to chase you away from this Forum or anything. But, that being said, you seem determined to make your deck a casual deck only. If that's the case, perhaps you might want to try out the Casual Forum, rather than this one. While this is not the Competitive - Standard Forum, it is still Standard. Just a thought.
Oh, and CorpT, his usual (and expected:p) sarcasm aside, still makes a valid point. You are operating under a completelyfalse assumption that Aggro decks require no "strategy or playskill" to run. As a long-time Control player from my first days playing Magic, I can sincerely tell you that it's that kind of thinking that can make you miss out on playing some truly fun decks. My favorite kind of deck to play is a blending of the two best kinds of decks. Aggro/Control decks are a blast to play. I played UW Merfolk off and on over the past two years and thoroughly enjoyed it every time out. My best results have come when running that deck. On the other hand, I also ran WW and Wr Kithkin a great deal over the past year. This is more of a straight Aggro deck, I will grant you. But you don't just show up and play the deck. It still requires skill, fast-thinking and critical decision-making. You are seriously selling Aggro players short with your attitude. Frankly, I'll take a solid UW Lark deck over your mono-blue deck for both the "fun" factor and for winning. An open mind never hurts, you know.
OH, and another thing. You own a Jace, you're playing mono-blue. Run Jace. Card advantage=good.
What you're getting at is the "apples and oranges' scenario. But the original point remains valid:
Can you honestly say that you can ignore Jace, Elspeth, Ajani V., or any other plainswalker and still think you will win? Jace, the Mind Sculptor is another tool that Blue mages can use to enhance their decks. He just happens to be an extremely powerful tool with not just one useful ability, but three (disregarding, for the sake of argument, his ultimate). I only saw one Jace drawn in the Pre-Release that I attended. I don't recall how well that player did the rest of the day, but when I sat anywhere near him early in the day, dropping Jace either won him the game, or saw Jace getting attacked until gone. You can't just leave him in play. He must be answered, ASAP, or you will find yourself under a huge disadvantage.
Bottom line: Can Jace win the game by himself? Not unless your opponent is retarded enough to let him reach his Ultimate ability. Is he a tool that will make decks running Islands better able to win those games? Damned right he is!
Wizards has said, and fairly repeatedly, over the past several years that UU hard counters are a thing of the past. I continue to disagree with that policy but it seems written in fairly solid stone. That being said....MaRo just loves to break the rules, right.....just wishful thinking, though.
I feel bad for the rest of Team USA, and for the rest of the U.S. MtG players around the country (myself included) since now our team has no chance to compete for the team title. <sigh>
I won this past Friday Night at FNM with a fairly stock Soldier list. I kept my 4x Lightcasters and 4x Purges in the SB and was glad I did. While I expected to see plenty of Jund and Vampires, I did not expect to play only one round against a deck sporting Swamps (the aforementioned Vamps) in five rounds of Swiss!
Instead, I faced two mirror matches (?), a Bant-Style control build and a UW hybrid of Soldiers and Control (stayed alive until casting Iona. Under the circumstances, main-decking a total of eight "anti-black" spells would have been rather awkward.
If you know ahead of time that everyone's running black, then by all means go with the hate cards. Otherwise, I think 2-4 White Knight would be enough for the Main.
Two things come to mind.
First: 4x Adventuring Gear and 4x Trusty Machete are much better than 2x, 2x and any Bone Saws. +2/+2 for Landfall or outright +2/+1 is simply more aggro than +1/0, in spite of the slight increase in mana cost. Sorry.
Second: While you may think that this deck is different, it still runs mostly the same set(s) of spells that any other mono-White Kor list would run (at least one that features Armament Master. Many of the cards are also run in both of the decks that Mind Game was kind enough to provide links to. While it may not be the same, card for card, the general idea of the deck is the same. There are already those two threads, plus one for Kor/Armament Master style decks. There is really nothing particularly unique about your list. Again, sorry.
Guys...I know that every FNM is different, buuuuuut........Not every FNM is like yours. The store that I play at has the usual newer players, playing their pet decks. But it also has the guys that play at the PTQ's, playing their latest versions of the top decks. This is the store that Shin plays at in when he's not away at school. And the store that he plays at when he is away at school is even stronger, having some of the best players in West Michigan playing there. You can talk about budget decks being played at FNM's all you want, but if you want to consistently have good results, you'd better be playing with better cards and better decks.
I think that the new forums are about the best that the mods could come up with. Let's give them a chance to get them organized and see how they work before we start nit-picking them apart.
The meta is largely irrelevant. If you are playing W, then you should be playing 4 copies of PtE. It remains one of the best removal spells currently in Standard.
Ari, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Chris and I have had this discussion many times when evaluating a new creature coming out. My problem is with those who continue to claim that a particular creature is "bad" because it dies to removal. I guess I'm just sick and tired of posts and posters that abuse that line without understanding the implications (which you explain quite adequately ;)). The actual poster that I was responding to even mentioned that he would gladly pay $40 a pop for Baneslayer when "Wizards gives her shroud". Yeah, right. That's just wishful thinking on his part, obviously. But it kind of illustrates a point. Has the recent power creep made us expect too much from our creatures? Has Goyf simply spoiled things for every other potentially good creature that gets printed?
Right on the money, someguy!
I see you've noticed.
I, for one, welcome these coming changes and commend the Mods. They have a largely thankless job, as is apparent from some of the comments on this very thread. There has been a serious problem with deteriorating quality on the Competitive Threads for some time. They saw a serious problem, worked out what they hope will be a series of solutions, and now they will impliment said solutions. For myself, I will likely read both the PT and the FNM forums, since I usually like to play either a Tier 1, or 1.5 type of deck. I like to win....so sue me. That does not make me an "elitist". It makes me someone who loves the game, but likes to win once in a while. Let's give these changes a chance. It appears as if considerable thought went into them. Giving them that time is the least we can do for an improvement in the Standard Forums.
Duh, so does Goyf. Yet it still remains one of the best creatures ever printed for this game. I'm not trying to compare the two...you can't. I'm just saying that the "she dies to everything" argument is rather lame. Everything in the game dies to something. Those who are pointing out how good she is in UW Control decks have it correct. Stick a Baneslayer, protect her for a couple of turns, and the game will be over.
Just check out the Stickies on this very Forum regarding the October rotation. They explain it quite well.
If you read Ben's post, you would know that the problem is less a matter of "not enough printed" to everyone wants them and no one will part with them. Sure, additional print runs will mean more supply, but if you think that will have a major impact on the demand, and therefore the price, then I think you are in for a surprise. Oh, and 3WW is not that hard to come by now, nor will it be come October. Finally, you are aware that Tarmogoyf was priced at $50 for quite a while when it was in Standard, don't you? Again, I am going by SCG's prices for both cards, not comparing apples and oranges from different sites. Besides, the $50 talk was from Ben, not my idea.
And just how does that matter to the discussion here? The OP wanted to know what cards to get NOW, not a year or more from now. If Baneslayer does not make the cut for Magic 2011 next year, that still means that it will be legal in Standard until October 2010, over a year away. I really don't give a damn that the price might "tank once it leaves Standard", we are talking about Standard now and after the coming rotation. Your whole point becomes, well, pointless, if Baneslayer is included in M11, doesn't it?
Why do these threads that ask a reasonable question almost always degenerate into "X is overpriced", why is X so expensive", etc. The OP asked what cards he should work on aquiring from Shards Block and M10. The answer, if he wants to play any deck running White mana, should include the best White cards...which include Baneslayer Angel. This is not rocket science. It's just simple logic.
The only problem with that line of thinking is the same problem that Tarmogoyf posed...the longer you wait to aquire them, the higher the price gets. The price of Baneslayer Angel has done nothing but increase since it's July introduction. Ben Bleiweiss was kind enough to mention in another Standard Thread that SCG cannot even obtain enough Baneslayers to fill any kind of demand right now. He speculated that the price could quite possibly hit $50, or more, by Christmas (unless another impact creature arrives with Zendikar). I seriously don't see the price of the angel dropping any time soon. Right now the best 5-drop in Standard is, at least arguably, Reveillark, but that will be changing in another month when that whole overpowered super-block rotates.
I want to qualify this reply by saying first, that I'm not trying to chase you away from this Forum or anything. But, that being said, you seem determined to make your deck a casual deck only. If that's the case, perhaps you might want to try out the Casual Forum, rather than this one. While this is not the Competitive - Standard Forum, it is still Standard. Just a thought.
Oh, and CorpT, his usual (and expected:p) sarcasm aside, still makes a valid point. You are operating under a completely false assumption that Aggro decks require no "strategy or playskill" to run. As a long-time Control player from my first days playing Magic, I can sincerely tell you that it's that kind of thinking that can make you miss out on playing some truly fun decks. My favorite kind of deck to play is a blending of the two best kinds of decks. Aggro/Control decks are a blast to play. I played UW Merfolk off and on over the past two years and thoroughly enjoyed it every time out. My best results have come when running that deck. On the other hand, I also ran WW and Wr Kithkin a great deal over the past year. This is more of a straight Aggro deck, I will grant you. But you don't just show up and play the deck. It still requires skill, fast-thinking and critical decision-making. You are seriously selling Aggro players short with your attitude.
OH, and another thing. You own a Jace, you're playing mono-blue. Run Jace. Card advantage=good.