I've theory crafted with Vannifar+Alarm in a typical Elf shell, and with four mana, Vannifar, Alarm, and a one-drop, the following sequence wins in two turns from an empty board state:
Turn N: Vannifar
Turn N+1: Alarm, 1 CMC->Dwynen's Elite, Token->1 CMC->Dwynen's Elite/Phantasmal Image (Elite) [repeat until no more Elites/Images available], Token->Heritage Druid, float ?G (9 max), 2 CMC->Archdruid then float ?G again (9 max) [repeat until no more Archdruids are available], 2 CMC->Ezuri 1.0 then float ?G again (9 max), dump mana into Ezuri's 5 CMC ability (10 activations max), swing with a big tramply Vannifar (36/38 body max).
You can actually squeeze more mana out by trading Archdruids for additional Vannifars (that would be sacrificed to legendary sbe).
Why bother with Lancers when you can play Kiki instead? There are corner cases where Lancers are better, but on average, Kiki seems like the superior choice. Intruder Alarm is a win-more card - you're usually able to win without it once Vannifar is online, and it does basically nothing without Vannifar. (Okay, Kiki + Intruder Alarm + any creature with at least 1 power is a combo kill. But that is probably it.) And it also enables opposing Izzet Staticasters, Grim Lavamancers, and Elvish Archdruids.
Color weight concerns; usually red is a splash color at best so if KJMB is ever in the hand, it would be stuck there until you'd be able to cast it.
Also Intruder Alarm along with Voice of Resurgence and/or Renegade Rallier would allow Vannifar to assemble a combo from a single dork and would take up about the same amount of slots proposed by the untsp chains
I believe a better* use would be to use Intruder Alarm alongside Vannifar. This would enable the following finite loop with Voice of Resurgence and Renegade Rallier, both of which we already run.
Turn N: Vannifar
Turn N+1: Intruder Alarm, Mana Dork, activate Vannifar on dork for Voice, activate Vannifar on Voice for Rallier, return Voice, rinse and repeat until no more Ralliers are available.
From there you have a massive board state with the potential to continue the chain in any number of ways. Only issue I have is that it requires using Intruder Alarm, which is a pretty big liability outside of this combo.
As an aside, it's a shame that Arena Rector is not Modern Legal; would been an easy way to assemble the main CopyCat combo. Still ... maybe Thalia's Lancers may be a decent substitute?
As for what I mean by value town, I'm a fan of Saffi Eriksdottir alongside Renegade Rallier, so a line such as Vannifar, sacrifice Saffi on Rallier, sacrifice Rallier (triggering Saffi and then Rallier) to get Felidar Guardian, blink Rallier/Saheeli if its there.
Also out of curiosity is there a creature equivalent of Intruder Alarm?
Just going to through my 5 cents into this and say: Vannifar is probable a trap (at least the whole Scryb Ranger plan). It's possibly fine to run as a 1-of, but not before the 4th Felidar Guardian and 4th Eldritch Evolution.
Agreed; I actually believe that Vannifar will be best as a value town enabler with the potential to tutor various five-drops by itself, including Kikki-Jikki as a back-up win.
Actually, now that I think of it ... there is a combo Vannifar is perfect for, but it is mana/color intensive and would most likely require its own deck:
Turn N: Play Vannifar
Turn N+1: Play Kikki Jikki/Zealous Conscripts, activate Vannifar on self for other, combo out.
Of note, Priest also stops Aether Vial, Collected Company and friends, Living End, Nahiri the Harbinger, Kitchen Finks ... basically it stops a lot that it's fishy little cousin Mistcaller can only hope to.
Want to give a try with this lovely artifact, but have no idea of possible lists.
Haven't tested this myself, but Isochron Scepter looks great for the control mirror with Noxious Revival ... NR by itself seems tasty with Terminus, cantrips, Remand, and fetches, but paying 2 mana each turn instead of 2 life once for what amounts to a graveyard toolbox engine seems good for grindy games.
Edit: Also hello; looking to give a Jeskai Harbinger a shot; seems to be more my style.
Getting ready to go to work, but midrange at the moment is too focused on the one-for-one removal and disruption that is not favorable against opponents going wide or opponents going big.
Personally I blue midrange decks probably have the best potential for a comeback; blue has access to Snapcaster in the main, enabling a higher threat density without necessarily sacrificing answer density, and Mistcaller in the side, which can slow down certain Aether Vial and Faithless Looting decks for a turn, which may be all the midrange deck needs to stabilize.
You're also missing the traditional (and much divisive in that it incentivizes more Cobras in place of dork consistency):
Turn 1 Dork
Turn 2 Cobra -> Fetch -> Rallier -> Fetch -> Saheeli -> copy Rallier -> fetch -> evo for guardian.
Did you update your list to include Cobras too?
On another note for everybody: how do we fare against the Phoenix.dec? Amongst other things, I think it's the straw that makes Splicer straight up unplayable (I had already forgone it, but had some lingering regrets). I know that it forces us (at least me) to mainboard Shalai.
Ooh! That looks tasty; I kinda figured there was some kinda turn 2 potential with Lotus - Fetch - Rallier - ???, but completely forgot Saheeli can be reset with Felidar.
As far as Mardu Phoenix goes, I doubt it can be as bad as Bant Spirits from a theoretical standpoint (permission against Evolution plus Path to Exile plus an evasive clock puts us at a serious disadvantage), but Mardu Phoenix poses a significant obstacle as well due to evasive clock and burn, a ton of removal and targeted discard, and grave-hate in the main.
However, if Legacy Nic Fit has taught me anything, removal does nothing against "as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature" (retain priority between resolving the creature and casting Evolution), so that's a boon, and we can win without our graveyard with both combo and valuetown plans. Shalai in the main is a start, but we have quite a few options available for the side, including Eidolon of Rhetoric (shuts off Phoenix and slows down Pyromancer), Scavenging Ooze (timely activation counters the Phoenix trigger), Rest in Peace (shuts off Phoenix, makes Reveler more expensive, and doesn't hurt as much as them), etc.
In fact, the most threatening aspect of their 75 (based on the Las Vegas list) is probably Blood Moon; without Dorks (which might be removed) and Oath (which might be discarded), we will have a tough time comboing out with a Blood Moon on the field. To this effect, I would make the following changes to my list (Cobras in place of Voices in the main and Shalai, Voice of Plenty in place of Sun Titan):
- 1 Rallier
- 3 Saffi
+ 1 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
On Pridemage, I am considering Pridemage over a third Knight of Autumn simply for interactions with Renegade Rallier.
As an aside, for Saffi+Rallier without a sac-outlet, it is almost like a better Finks+Vizier as you can chump block two attackers each turn and protect the Rallier against destroy removal. However if Rest of Peace is boarded in, that synergy loses a lot of value, and Phoenix can't be blocked without evasion (which only Shalai has). Rallier is still decent in any matchup as at the very least it can ramp us before Rest in Peace hits the field; just not good enough to justify 4 of them at all times.
And bump because ... well ... the turn 3 potential of this deck is just insane:
For example:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Fetch (Land) into Rallier (Fetch (Land)) into Dork
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) or Evolution-Rallier (Felidar (Land)) into Saheeli win
Or:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Land into Dork x2
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) into Saheeli win
Or my favorite, which with some luck can provide a turn 3 win with Oath of Nissa (and a major reason why I'm cutting voices for cobras):
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Cobra into Fetch (Land) into Cobra into Oath
Turn 3 - Fetch (Land) into Oath into Felidar (Oath) into Saheeli
Notice how the combo is assembled right away on the kill turn as opposed to the more likely dork-saheeli-felidar sequence, which means that any deck that taps out on turn 2 without interaction risks losing to the combo ... the mind games associated with this threat combined with valuetown plan B ... well, let's just say I really want to build this and jam it FNM already.
Updated my latest list (including manabase and dropping 1-of Viscera Seer for a 2nd Knight of Autumn); apologies for the double-post, but I didn't want to edit the original for the sake of historical context.
EDIT: Shalai over Sun Titan and Cobras over Voices
Agreed on Viscera Seer being quite suboptimal; I may be getting too cute with that combo in addition to the powerhouse of Saheeli+Felidar.
However, I am very interested in living the attrition dream by going turn 3 Saheeli that is answered into turn 4 Felidar into turn 5 Saffi on Felidar then Evolution Felidar into Sun Titan which would allow me to threaten the combo every turn after that.
Thoughts on Crumble to Dust and Horribly Awry? Both seem powerful tools in their own right, with Crumble hitting Tron and perhaps even 12-post hard, while Awry deals with quite a few cards within Legacy and Modern.
I've theory crafted with Vannifar+Alarm in a typical Elf shell, and with four mana, Vannifar, Alarm, and a one-drop, the following sequence wins in two turns from an empty board state:
Turn N: Vannifar
Turn N+1: Alarm, 1 CMC->Dwynen's Elite, Token->1 CMC->Dwynen's Elite/Phantasmal Image (Elite) [repeat until no more Elites/Images available], Token->Heritage Druid, float ?G (9 max), 2 CMC->Archdruid then float ?G again (9 max) [repeat until no more Archdruids are available], 2 CMC->Ezuri 1.0 then float ?G again (9 max), dump mana into Ezuri's 5 CMC ability (10 activations max), swing with a big tramply Vannifar (36/38 body max).
You can actually squeeze more mana out by trading Archdruids for additional Vannifars (that would be sacrificed to legendary sbe).
Color weight concerns; usually red is a splash color at best so if KJMB is ever in the hand, it would be stuck there until you'd be able to cast it.
Also Intruder Alarm along with Voice of Resurgence and/or Renegade Rallier would allow Vannifar to assemble a combo from a single dork and would take up about the same amount of slots proposed by the untsp chains
Turn N: Vannifar
Turn N+1: Intruder Alarm, Mana Dork, activate Vannifar on dork for Voice, activate Vannifar on Voice for Rallier, return Voice, rinse and repeat until no more Ralliers are available.
From there you have a massive board state with the potential to continue the chain in any number of ways. Only issue I have is that it requires using Intruder Alarm, which is a pretty big liability outside of this combo.
As an aside, it's a shame that Arena Rector is not Modern Legal; would been an easy way to assemble the main CopyCat combo. Still ... maybe Thalia's Lancers may be a decent substitute?
As for what I mean by value town, I'm a fan of Saffi Eriksdottir alongside Renegade Rallier, so a line such as Vannifar, sacrifice Saffi on Rallier, sacrifice Rallier (triggering Saffi and then Rallier) to get Felidar Guardian, blink Rallier/Saheeli if its there.
Also out of curiosity is there a creature equivalent of Intruder Alarm?
Children of Korlis for padding your life total.
Agreed; I actually believe that Vannifar will be best as a value town enabler with the potential to tutor various five-drops by itself, including Kikki-Jikki as a back-up win.
Actually, now that I think of it ... there is a combo Vannifar is perfect for, but it is mana/color intensive and would most likely require its own deck:
Turn N: Play Vannifar
Turn N+1: Play Kikki Jikki/Zealous Conscripts, activate Vannifar on self for other, combo out.
Outside of that, she draws some pretty obvious comparisons to Gaddock Teeg.
Haven't tested this myself, but Isochron Scepter looks great for the control mirror with Noxious Revival ... NR by itself seems tasty with Terminus, cantrips, Remand, and fetches, but paying 2 mana each turn instead of 2 life once for what amounts to a graveyard toolbox engine seems good for grindy games.
Edit: Also hello; looking to give a Jeskai Harbinger a shot; seems to be more my style.
Personally I blue midrange decks probably have the best potential for a comeback; blue has access to Snapcaster in the main, enabling a higher threat density without necessarily sacrificing answer density, and Mistcaller in the side, which can slow down certain Aether Vial and Faithless Looting decks for a turn, which may be all the midrange deck needs to stabilize.
Ooh! That looks tasty; I kinda figured there was some kinda turn 2 potential with Lotus - Fetch - Rallier - ???, but completely forgot Saheeli can be reset with Felidar.
As far as Mardu Phoenix goes, I doubt it can be as bad as Bant Spirits from a theoretical standpoint (permission against Evolution plus Path to Exile plus an evasive clock puts us at a serious disadvantage), but Mardu Phoenix poses a significant obstacle as well due to evasive clock and burn, a ton of removal and targeted discard, and grave-hate in the main.
However, if Legacy Nic Fit has taught me anything, removal does nothing against "as an additional cost, sacrifice a creature" (retain priority between resolving the creature and casting Evolution), so that's a boon, and we can win without our graveyard with both combo and valuetown plans. Shalai in the main is a start, but we have quite a few options available for the side, including Eidolon of Rhetoric (shuts off Phoenix and slows down Pyromancer), Scavenging Ooze (timely activation counters the Phoenix trigger), Rest in Peace (shuts off Phoenix, makes Reveler more expensive, and doesn't hurt as much as them), etc.
In fact, the most threatening aspect of their 75 (based on the Las Vegas list) is probably Blood Moon; without Dorks (which might be removed) and Oath (which might be discarded), we will have a tough time comboing out with a Blood Moon on the field. To this effect, I would make the following changes to my list (Cobras in place of Voices in the main and Shalai, Voice of Plenty in place of Sun Titan):
- 1 Rallier
- 3 Saffi
+ 1 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
+ 2 Rest in Peace
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
On Pridemage, I am considering Pridemage over a third Knight of Autumn simply for interactions with Renegade Rallier.
As an aside, for Saffi+Rallier without a sac-outlet, it is almost like a better Finks+Vizier as you can chump block two attackers each turn and protect the Rallier against destroy removal. However if Rest of Peace is boarded in, that synergy loses a lot of value, and Phoenix can't be blocked without evasion (which only Shalai has). Rallier is still decent in any matchup as at the very least it can ramp us before Rest in Peace hits the field; just not good enough to justify 4 of them at all times.
For example:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Fetch (Land) into Rallier (Fetch (Land)) into Dork
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) or Evolution-Rallier (Felidar (Land)) into Saheeli win
Or:
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Land into Dork x2
Turn 3 - Land into Felidar (Land) into Saheeli win
Or my favorite, which with some luck can provide a turn 3 win with Oath of Nissa (and a major reason why I'm cutting voices for cobras):
Turn 1 - Land into Dork
Turn 2 - Cobra into Fetch (Land) into Cobra into Oath
Turn 3 - Fetch (Land) into Oath into Felidar (Oath) into Saheeli
Notice how the combo is assembled right away on the kill turn as opposed to the more likely dork-saheeli-felidar sequence, which means that any deck that taps out on turn 2 without interaction risks losing to the combo ... the mind games associated with this threat combined with valuetown plan B ... well, let's just say I really want to build this and jam it FNM already.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Renegade Rallier
2 Knight of Autumn
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Spells (12)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Steam Vents
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Forest
15 Meta-Dependent Choices
Updated my latest list (including manabase and dropping 1-of Viscera Seer for a 2nd Knight of Autumn); apologies for the double-post, but I didn't want to edit the original for the sake of historical context.
EDIT: Shalai over Sun Titan and Cobras over Voices
However, I am very interested in living the attrition dream by going turn 3 Saheeli that is answered into turn 4 Felidar into turn 5 Saffi on Felidar then Evolution Felidar into Sun Titan which would allow me to threaten the combo every turn after that.