Honestly, this thread is painful to read. With the exception of a few people who know anything about Vintage, the consensus opinion is that you need to own power to play. Newflash for everyone who thinks this, there is 1 tournament each year in the United States which is 0 proxy.
Also, the whole "Every deck is the same, it plays the Power9 (Insert whining about every deck being the same", so you are telling me that because all of the decks in the format with the exception of Dredge run Moxen, a Lotus, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt that they are all the same? This type of mentality says literally nothing about the format and shows an ignorance about it because even a few card slots can change the way in which a deck ought to be played making it different.
I am pretty certain that if possible every Vintage player would open with a turn 1 kill with double Force backup, but that is not the case at all. Even the decks that can win on turn 1 relatively consistently do not win tournaments because they generally lose to a well timed Force of Will. The differences between Oath and Tezzeret are not shown when either of them opens with Mox, Sol Ring, Island, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, with Force of Will and a Brainstorm in hand, but that doesn't happen nearly as often in actual Vintage games as most of the people in this thread perceive it to.
Getting back to the idea of every deck being the same, the differences are usually shown when a Turn 1 kill doesn't happen (I would guess 90%+ of the time) and then the difference in playstyles between Oath and Tezz can be seen even if the only differences in the actual cards is usually (-4 Dark Confidant -2 Thoughtseize/Spell Pierce -4 Lands +4 Oath of Druids +1 Iona +1 Terrastodon +4 Forbidden Orchard). Even though the decks are 10 cards different from one another they play completely differently more often than not. I think this is the point that people are missing, decks having similar or almost the same cards does not equate to them being the same. This concept may be tough to understand for some of you but hopefully at least someone will understand this.
Games that get locked up turn 1 because someone wins the die roll and goes Workshop, sphere effect, turn 2 wasteland sphere effect aren't turn 1 wins, but they might as well be. Most games come down to a setup on the first turn that pays off on the second, and again, you don't have much interaction outside of "which spell do I Force/Daze?"
I don't play vintage but I read tournament reports and they all hinge entirely on either the first turn or where the force of will entered the game. With however many thousands of cards in Magic, the fact that force is the only thing in the game that literally keeps the game from being entirely about the die roll is absurd.
That type of example of course is non-interactive, but it is not the norm per se. I too have witnessed the brutal and unfair starts that Stax can have, but as a Workshop player I see the deck in a different perspective than you do as a reader. When you hear about Workshops, and Vintage in general it seems you are reading tournament reports. The one thing that almost all tournament reports share is winning, which is often aided by a few extremely easy wins, most likely more than usual. I would venture to guess that in most tournament reports you hear about more turn 1 Vault Key's than mulligan's to 4 and the like.
I won't try to argue with you over whether or not Vintage can be degenerate or non-interactive but I feel you are getting a larger dose of blowout victories than an actual player would because of your limited exposure to the format on a daily basis.
As a Vintage player there should be a misconception thread about Vintage or one about what the opinions of Vintage players is on Non-Vintage players. Here are a few of the things that really stuck out to me and quite honestly annoyed me.
1) Totally ignorance and lack of knowledge about the format. Not talking to all of you but in this thread a good majority of you think the format is all about Turn 1 kills (Something that doesn't happen except in the TPS mirror). Or to single someone out, Zoyle, you tried to explain to someone else what is going on in Vintage when it seems like you don't know anything about it either (They are Mishra's Workshop decks not Mishra's Factory, unbelievably big difference).
2) No one even mentioned the idea of Pillars which pretty much describes the format (Bazaar, Mishra's Workshop, Null Rod Based Aggro, Blue Based Control), this pretty much sums up the format.
3) Proxies not being factored in/ being misinterpreted/ cost misinterpretation. There were 2 large Sanctioned (Non-Proxy) Vintage event in the U.S. This year and at least 65 10-15 Proxy events. Let me make this perfectly clear, you do not need any pieces of Power except for Vintage Champs at Gencon which is essentially a tournament for bragging rights. Also, Shards Block and a good majority of Noble Fish was legal in Standard and is probably not that hard to get, while still being competitive.
4) Nothing changes in Vintage/ It is harder to build a rogue deck because the format is defined. I would be willing to bet that the amount of focus paid on the format by the "pros" and subsequently the masses is proportional to the amount of change that occurs in a short period of time(Yes I know correlation does not equal causation). Also, the idea of bringing your pet deck with cute(or generally less powerful) cards is certainly more likely to succeed in Standard than Vintage but that is just because of the lower power level of cards when you compare the two formats.
5) Vintage is not as skill intensive as other formats. In certain decks and situations it is undeniable that you will be able to auto-pilot and win or be LSV and lose, but it doesn't happen very often. The idea that "whoever has 3 Force of Wills) wins is not the case and it also digs into a deeper concept of bluffing and playing around bluffs that other formats such as Standard with more perfect information and in my opinion less skill don't have. Combat interactions are less frequent in Vintage than Standard but the amount of interaction on the stack combined with the battle of wits created by the power level of the cards more than makes up for this so that the games often have a few actual turns of action, but a lot more is determined in those few turns.
As a whole, it seems like most of the people commenting on the thread are making assumptions about Vintage based on watching and/or playing a few games or comparing it to formats that it is not. My message to this category of people is to take the time and proxy up the top decks in the format right now and see what you like or don't like about the actual format (Trygon Tezz, Oath, Gush Control, Bob Tendrils, ANT, Noble Fish, Workshop Aggro, Espresso Stax and Dredge).
I guess Magic has helped but tbh I'm a pretty anti-social person more often than not because I can't stand stupid people and therefore don't really try to talk to those ( a large percentage of the population) people. Also, I'm a product of the text/aim/fbchat world we live in where there are few real life conversations which has hurt my social skills immensely. One positive thing going for me is that I try to be as nice as I can to everyone so I am somewhat more marketable than your average joe but not much so.
I personally would say you should get the Underground Sea because unless you play in a no proxy environment you don't need Moxen to play for the most part. However, if money is not a question just get all of them and call it a day although a Summer Island and Beta Demonic Tutor are really unnecessary but rather pimp.
Maybe not killing all of the ******s would be a good idea, but all the really ******** vegetable ones. In the words of the Hangover, "Rainman did it and he was a ******." Also, why is it that ****** is censored out at all? it's like how at my school I can't search words like "Die", "Hate", "Gun", Wine" etc. etc. THIS IS MADNESS!!!
Man why wouldn't I pull a plug on a ****** is the real question I'd like to ask. If the situation arose I wouldn't see the problem honestly with pulling the plug on a ****** not because I dislike them but because they aren't capable to make their own decisions quite honestly. If someone is considered mentally insane or pleads insanity then the case is not the same as being straight ********. I assume also that you would only be able to pull the plug on someone that was indeed on life support and therefore a vegetative ******.
The reason that Sphinx is better than Inkwell for the most part is that most people have cut Echoing Truth altogether from their decks, and run Repeal with Hurkyl's Recall. Hurkyl's is better than Echoing Truth because it doesn't target, and really what other cards do you want to bounce that aren't artifacts and are regularly played by the majority of the field? Also, Sundering Titan in the right environment can be the best especially when you realize that bounce is reasonably irrelevant right now as all of it works to get rid of the creatures, unless you play against Storm which runs Chain or I'm not sure what.
Sysel I love that Island, and those types of alters in particular. I find it really interesting how the types of alters has changed and adapted over the time that it has become more and more popular. Keep up the good work everyone, this thread is like a high quality art gallery.
I kind of like this card, and was a bit disappointed that it didn't receive the hype that some other cards have. To me, the Trickster seems like a different flavor Quirion Dryad or the like. May pick up a set especially when they are really cheap.
T2 is extremely expensive. Not only do the cards rotate out every two years (and it's practically impossible to get rid of them for the last 3-4 months before that) and thus loose a huge amount of their value, the prevalent decks change quite rapidly (Faeries -> RB -> 5CC -> Swans -> Jund -> 5CC etc.). Also, with new sets coming in and out, decks may rotate even faster (Swans combo in T2). Each T2 deck also costs quite a lot (rare are the decks for less than 200$) and so it can rack up to Vintage costs fast.
Also, you've chosen some of the most expensive Vintage decks as your examples. Oath, Ichorid, Aggro (GW, GWb, RG, MB), Fish variants, BuG and Noble Goyf can all be acquired for quite reasonable amounts and most of these overlap with each other in the large purchases (Thoughtseize, Goyf, Force).
Your whole viewpoint is flawed completely. You use examples of changing from 1 extreme to the opposite with each example. Would you agree if I said that going from RGB Aggro to something like TPS, and then from TPS to Stax, and from there trading everything to pick up Tezz. was cost effective? This is essentially your arguement for why Type2 is expensive, as if this doesn't happen with Type1. Examples of cards/ decks popping up like Seismic Swans did can be matched to the Restriction of half the format or the sudden realization that Strategic Planning came about and then left almost immediately. Also, you point out Seismic Swans while failing to realize that half of the deck was uncommons, and that the Mana Base could be ported almost directly into or out of 5cc.
Finally, saying that 5cStax and Tezz. are some of the most expensive decks and then listing Fae./ 5color is completely ludicrous. The decks you listed for the most part do not carry over if they are Tier1, or are Tier2/3 for the most part, showing why they are not super expensive. It's unfair to say that Tezz. or Stax are the most expensive and therefore not reasonable when they are 2 of the better archetypes, with Tezz. being almost unanimously the best, while Fae. was the best for more than half of its lifespan. Come on now, I'm not sure which aspect of the T2 season you are referring to, (PTQ Season, GP, Pro Tour, FNM? etc.) but your logic just seems really flawed regarding the topic. Granted the fact that T2 has rotations, and there are tournaments (mostly irrelevant ones) every week, the price can not even be compared to Type1 even without mentioning Vintage Champs or Sanctioned events. Finally, the fact that this is pretty apparent to all the players running 10 proxies just fuels those who run any less and really shell out the cash to why they are "entitled" to be elite, because their format has a higher buy-in.
I'm not saying 10-15 Proxy decks which may or may not be expensive, but rather fully powered decks, however Tezz or 5cStax fit the bill for 10 proxy reasonably well. With 10 proxy for Tezz you need 3 Drains, 3 U.Seas, Mana Crypt, 4FoW, 5 Fetches, Academy, 3 Bob, Yawg. Will, and other 5ish dollar staples. That alone racks up to around $700 at least, without even factoring in the extra $80 you need to spend if you want to run Imperial Seal in the list which would mean you have to play 4 real Drains. Ofcourse you can play Ichorid or some Aggro variant but neither offer cards that are played in a multitude of decks besides Goyfs, Bobs, and some other stuff that you would likely proxy. Type2 over 2 years is possibly more expensive simply because you bought cards at the wrong times and invested in the wrong decks. Plus, you are expected to trade out all of your cards before the rotation happens so you can get a new deck if you plan to. Obviously Type2 is more expensive if 3 weeks before Lorwyn Rotated you picked up playsets of Reflecting Pool, Mutavault, Figure, Cryptic Command, Bitterblossom, etc. at full price but otherwise not really more than $700 if even close to it.
Priceless Treasures IMO are the biggest scam idea for money ever. Do you really think that 1/720 packs on average containing an old card (Not necessarily more than $20ish) is worth the $15 spike in box prices after the announcement of this idea for only the nearly sold out first print run. For people not willing to do math, 1/20 boxes has a card, of an extremely generous $100 value, if each box goes up $10 in price like they did then a $200 card average for each Treasure seems reasonable but did not happen. I didn't research or look into this at all, but my blind guess would be that the average is actually somewhere around $75ish, meaning that the price per box should go up 3.50 at most instead of $10. Also, how many people actually got Treasures, its not a real redistribution of wealth or anything of the sort, just a lottery system for WOTC to make more money after already having a stranglehold on supply.
on another note, I think that the reason vintage players tend to carry some "elitism" is because the fact is that although we break magic into different formats, we all follow the same rules and are trying to achieve the same goal (winning through one of the various ways, ie life, mill, poison counters), and vintage decks do that best.
These are technically the best decks in magic, the most powerful, the quickest to win. A vintage deck should never lose to a deck from a different format. So even though we take "formats" into consideration, the fact is, a vintage deck is simply better than a legacy deck or an ext/t2 deck.
Also, in my opinion, vintage is the most difficult format to play in, you really have to know your ****. That could also bring elitism
Simply from my perspective, but I feel that the idea of vintage elitism comes from a variety of outlets. First and foremost, Vintage can easily cost more than any other format. Buying Duals, Power, Drains, Shops, etc. you set yourself apart from the pack. Also on this note, Vintage for the most part is the format where you see the most outrageous overly expensive versions of cards being played, and people bragging about it. Next, Vintage really is a "man's format", I (17 year old) was the youngest person in the room of a 33 person Vintage Event this weekend, whereas I am older than the average FNMer at the same store. What this means is that the format caters more to people who want to put money in their deck and have it stay there, nothing rotates, the same archetypes for the most part have stayed the same since Mirrodin, and that's how most T1 players like it. Finally, like you said, it is the most explosive and sometimes downright broken format of them all. These things pretty much define what elitism there is, because owning a Powered out vintage deck is to owning a BMW, whereas owning a T2 deck is to owning a 95 Taurus, both get you there, but one has much more class and elegance. Plus, isn't it natural for the guy in the BMW who spent 50k on his ride feel better than the guy in the Taurus? Again, just my thoughts.
Just do the egg Kriggy, that is technically the 4th stage. You know what would be awesome but would take DI time, make a deck where every card was altered into a different Pokemon. That could definitely be someone's project, but that someone would need lots of time and energy for sure.
Dream Halls is real good with Grozoth FYI. Play Grozoth, search up 4 Searing Wind and GG. Welder shenanigans will be fun now that this is almost like an old extended format or something.
Also, the whole "Every deck is the same, it plays the Power9 (Insert whining about every deck being the same", so you are telling me that because all of the decks in the format with the exception of Dredge run Moxen, a Lotus, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt that they are all the same? This type of mentality says literally nothing about the format and shows an ignorance about it because even a few card slots can change the way in which a deck ought to be played making it different.
I am pretty certain that if possible every Vintage player would open with a turn 1 kill with double Force backup, but that is not the case at all. Even the decks that can win on turn 1 relatively consistently do not win tournaments because they generally lose to a well timed Force of Will. The differences between Oath and Tezzeret are not shown when either of them opens with Mox, Sol Ring, Island, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, with Force of Will and a Brainstorm in hand, but that doesn't happen nearly as often in actual Vintage games as most of the people in this thread perceive it to.
Getting back to the idea of every deck being the same, the differences are usually shown when a Turn 1 kill doesn't happen (I would guess 90%+ of the time) and then the difference in playstyles between Oath and Tezz can be seen even if the only differences in the actual cards is usually (-4 Dark Confidant -2 Thoughtseize/Spell Pierce -4 Lands +4 Oath of Druids +1 Iona +1 Terrastodon +4 Forbidden Orchard). Even though the decks are 10 cards different from one another they play completely differently more often than not. I think this is the point that people are missing, decks having similar or almost the same cards does not equate to them being the same. This concept may be tough to understand for some of you but hopefully at least someone will understand this.
That type of example of course is non-interactive, but it is not the norm per se. I too have witnessed the brutal and unfair starts that Stax can have, but as a Workshop player I see the deck in a different perspective than you do as a reader. When you hear about Workshops, and Vintage in general it seems you are reading tournament reports. The one thing that almost all tournament reports share is winning, which is often aided by a few extremely easy wins, most likely more than usual. I would venture to guess that in most tournament reports you hear about more turn 1 Vault Key's than mulligan's to 4 and the like.
I won't try to argue with you over whether or not Vintage can be degenerate or non-interactive but I feel you are getting a larger dose of blowout victories than an actual player would because of your limited exposure to the format on a daily basis.
1) Totally ignorance and lack of knowledge about the format. Not talking to all of you but in this thread a good majority of you think the format is all about Turn 1 kills (Something that doesn't happen except in the TPS mirror). Or to single someone out, Zoyle, you tried to explain to someone else what is going on in Vintage when it seems like you don't know anything about it either (They are Mishra's Workshop decks not Mishra's Factory, unbelievably big difference).
2) No one even mentioned the idea of Pillars which pretty much describes the format (Bazaar, Mishra's Workshop, Null Rod Based Aggro, Blue Based Control), this pretty much sums up the format.
3) Proxies not being factored in/ being misinterpreted/ cost misinterpretation. There were 2 large Sanctioned (Non-Proxy) Vintage event in the U.S. This year and at least 65 10-15 Proxy events. Let me make this perfectly clear, you do not need any pieces of Power except for Vintage Champs at Gencon which is essentially a tournament for bragging rights. Also, Shards Block and a good majority of Noble Fish was legal in Standard and is probably not that hard to get, while still being competitive.
4) Nothing changes in Vintage/ It is harder to build a rogue deck because the format is defined. I would be willing to bet that the amount of focus paid on the format by the "pros" and subsequently the masses is proportional to the amount of change that occurs in a short period of time(Yes I know correlation does not equal causation). Also, the idea of bringing your pet deck with cute(or generally less powerful) cards is certainly more likely to succeed in Standard than Vintage but that is just because of the lower power level of cards when you compare the two formats.
5) Vintage is not as skill intensive as other formats. In certain decks and situations it is undeniable that you will be able to auto-pilot and win or be LSV and lose, but it doesn't happen very often. The idea that "whoever has 3 Force of Wills) wins is not the case and it also digs into a deeper concept of bluffing and playing around bluffs that other formats such as Standard with more perfect information and in my opinion less skill don't have. Combat interactions are less frequent in Vintage than Standard but the amount of interaction on the stack combined with the battle of wits created by the power level of the cards more than makes up for this so that the games often have a few actual turns of action, but a lot more is determined in those few turns.
As a whole, it seems like most of the people commenting on the thread are making assumptions about Vintage based on watching and/or playing a few games or comparing it to formats that it is not. My message to this category of people is to take the time and proxy up the top decks in the format right now and see what you like or don't like about the actual format (Trygon Tezz, Oath, Gush Control, Bob Tendrils, ANT, Noble Fish, Workshop Aggro, Espresso Stax and Dredge).
Your whole viewpoint is flawed completely. You use examples of changing from 1 extreme to the opposite with each example. Would you agree if I said that going from RGB Aggro to something like TPS, and then from TPS to Stax, and from there trading everything to pick up Tezz. was cost effective? This is essentially your arguement for why Type2 is expensive, as if this doesn't happen with Type1. Examples of cards/ decks popping up like Seismic Swans did can be matched to the Restriction of half the format or the sudden realization that Strategic Planning came about and then left almost immediately. Also, you point out Seismic Swans while failing to realize that half of the deck was uncommons, and that the Mana Base could be ported almost directly into or out of 5cc.
Finally, saying that 5cStax and Tezz. are some of the most expensive decks and then listing Fae./ 5color is completely ludicrous. The decks you listed for the most part do not carry over if they are Tier1, or are Tier2/3 for the most part, showing why they are not super expensive. It's unfair to say that Tezz. or Stax are the most expensive and therefore not reasonable when they are 2 of the better archetypes, with Tezz. being almost unanimously the best, while Fae. was the best for more than half of its lifespan. Come on now, I'm not sure which aspect of the T2 season you are referring to, (PTQ Season, GP, Pro Tour, FNM? etc.) but your logic just seems really flawed regarding the topic. Granted the fact that T2 has rotations, and there are tournaments (mostly irrelevant ones) every week, the price can not even be compared to Type1 even without mentioning Vintage Champs or Sanctioned events. Finally, the fact that this is pretty apparent to all the players running 10 proxies just fuels those who run any less and really shell out the cash to why they are "entitled" to be elite, because their format has a higher buy-in.
Priceless Treasures IMO are the biggest scam idea for money ever. Do you really think that 1/720 packs on average containing an old card (Not necessarily more than $20ish) is worth the $15 spike in box prices after the announcement of this idea for only the nearly sold out first print run. For people not willing to do math, 1/20 boxes has a card, of an extremely generous $100 value, if each box goes up $10 in price like they did then a $200 card average for each Treasure seems reasonable but did not happen. I didn't research or look into this at all, but my blind guess would be that the average is actually somewhere around $75ish, meaning that the price per box should go up 3.50 at most instead of $10. Also, how many people actually got Treasures, its not a real redistribution of wealth or anything of the sort, just a lottery system for WOTC to make more money after already having a stranglehold on supply.
Simply from my perspective, but I feel that the idea of vintage elitism comes from a variety of outlets. First and foremost, Vintage can easily cost more than any other format. Buying Duals, Power, Drains, Shops, etc. you set yourself apart from the pack. Also on this note, Vintage for the most part is the format where you see the most outrageous overly expensive versions of cards being played, and people bragging about it. Next, Vintage really is a "man's format", I (17 year old) was the youngest person in the room of a 33 person Vintage Event this weekend, whereas I am older than the average FNMer at the same store. What this means is that the format caters more to people who want to put money in their deck and have it stay there, nothing rotates, the same archetypes for the most part have stayed the same since Mirrodin, and that's how most T1 players like it. Finally, like you said, it is the most explosive and sometimes downright broken format of them all. These things pretty much define what elitism there is, because owning a Powered out vintage deck is to owning a BMW, whereas owning a T2 deck is to owning a 95 Taurus, both get you there, but one has much more class and elegance. Plus, isn't it natural for the guy in the BMW who spent 50k on his ride feel better than the guy in the Taurus? Again, just my thoughts.