You may be right, but the known facts about deck presentation would suggest we aren't there yet.
They could ban it now to avoid accusations of a shake-up ban right before the PT, but then it will surely be perceived as arbitrary and the community's trust in the list's management will suffer. Goes to show that they really should have axed both lands when they had the chance.
Reasoning here is similar to Zvi's when he commented on WotC's first decision on Felidar Guardian. Mind you these cases are very different from each other but the point is if you have a clear shot you should take it.
An interesting way to hate on big mana decks might be Encroach. It pained me that more often then not you never could nab the cards that mattered, i.e. lands.
As a reprint it wouldn't be format warping in a way another moon variant might be and on the plus side it would help the kind of decks that need the help against big mana.
I'm fortunate enough to have a wide range of options when it comes to Modern. Aggro, mid-range, combo and control. I was hit with as many bans/unbans as the next guy.
There is a fine line between wanting a shorter ban list (which is good) and calling for an unban of artifact lands for example. If I seem overly conservative it's because I'm trying to be realistic about a given card's chances of reentering the format. Pierrebai's thoughts on bbe are something I can get behind and it is the real reason I think it's unban is unrealistic.
You could of course say that bbe isn't that much more powerful than what e-tron is doing but that opens up a whole new can of worms.
Oh no, it'll stop diversifying a 2 of in most jund decks? It's 4 drops is diversified because none them are great, just needed.
No one's diversifying goyfs or Bob's, or other major creatures in most decks.
Junds diversification comes from its removals of choice and the numbers, along with its sideboard. You have to look at jund less as a 60 card deck and more like a 75, much more so than just about any deck in the format.
Keeping bbe banned because a 2 of in one deck will be less diverse is asanine, the deck is bad now and needs a boost. If bbe still makes the deck bad, that's that and there's nothing more that should be done with jund except hope it gets good again from new sets. It also means one less deck on the banned list and proving it wasn't a threat to the formats health.
You're a frustrating poster, you want more things banned and less things unbanned, all of your opinions set the format back, in my opinion
People really are kind. I'm single-handedly holding back Modern? Do I do emergency bans too? I'm trying really hard not use slander in my comments here but expecting the same courtesy seems like a fool's errand.
I've playing Jund for years now (before bbe was banned) and I honestly don't see how you don't jam 4 BBE in every list. Find me someone who thinks otherwise and I'll show you a bold-faced liar.
Funny thing is I wasn't even against the unban as such. I just wanted to point out some potential side effects of such a move but here I am holding the format back and throwing spokes into the wheel of progress...
One good thing from the BBE ban was that Jund decks deversified the 4 drop slot. Bringing it back would offset that good development.
I wouldn't mind playing it again but I wouldn't waste a thought on Kalitas, Olivia or Huntmaster if that card was around, at least as far as the md is concerned.
If Urza lands were legendary, all forms of Tron would die on the spot, you're literally saying it's ok for a deck to have 9 dead cards after they draw the initial one.
That's not counting the times when relics/chalice is bad, or watching as a endbringer, Karn or All is dust stranded in hand
You guys absolutely no not understand the decks on a fundamental, and they are by no means complicated nuances to understand, it's coming off as ignorant or dishonest.
E-Tron would not be played if it were a legendary land. Period.
You sure do like to say that people just don't understand decks when they disagree with you. Lots of decks can have dead cards after certain in game criteria has been met
He's right. There are a few people who post of a lot of strong opinions in the thread who clearly don't really understand what's going on with Modern decks or the Modern meta. Disagreeing with these people isn't the same as disagreeing with someone who knows what they are talking about but has a difference of opinion. There are a few people who really should just step back and think a bit more deeply before posting a lot of nonsense, cluttering up the thread, and starting useless arguments... in other words, trolling.
Not trying to stifle discussion, but rather increase the quality of discussion.
God does this sound condescending.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
It's good of you to post that data but deciding who gets to take what away from said data is way out of line.
Isnt E-tron a midrange deck? Putting it in the same column with traditional tron decks seems highly disingenuous. For one thing the decks pan out way differently and their game plans are as different as night is from day.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Because honestly, I feel that if you ban Temple, then Eldrazi Tron just becomes a worse Tron deck then your standard R/G or B/G Tron list.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
Not sure what the unban euphoria is about; even if they unbanned both Stoneforge and BBE right now those decks would still fold to the ET deck big time. If you think that's not warping enough of an effect on ETs part then more power to you I guess.
I'm well aware of the current meta shares. My views and opinions are based purely on the fact that Eldrazi Temple is a fundamentally unbalanced card in this field that homogenized midrange decks almost like no card before it (DS decks come off more as tempo decks to me). It would take something like DRS to unseat E-Tron and that's not even remotely possible or healthy.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Yes. I want a deck that doesn't violate the turn four rule to be tier zero before banning.
Wouldn't be the first time. Probably wouldn't be the last.
Jund wasn't tier 0 when DRS and BBE were banned.
Voldemort wasn't tier 0 when it was banned and neither was Birthing Pod or any other deck except eldrazi come to think of it.
Most of those decks were fair-ish and didn't break the turn 4 rule and they still got chopped. Why should E-Tron be exempted?
In no uncertain terms ET was responsible for The Worst period in this format's history. There is no good reason to go soft on it...
How does one attack ETron? Other than "hope they stumble" or "damage race," what can decks actually do? Mind you that, as I mentioned last page, answers like Ceremonious Rejection are handled by their 4x, main deck Chalice of the Void. Hitting their lands doesn't really hurt them, all their creatures are hugely-advantageous 2-for-1s, they pack one-sided board wipes that get rid of all your non-land permanents, they have access to tons of graveyard hate, countermagic for sorceries, additional board wipes, and a top end that nobody can compete with, all with a pain-free manabase that gets to run multiple sol lands and utility lands at no detriment to color fixing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like when this deck loses, it's only because it loses to itself or to an explosive hand out of a hyper aggro deck.
Dismissing ceremonious rejection due to chalice would be like dismissing kor firewalker against burn due to skullcrack. Yeah, they have a 4-of that can answer the problem, but that problem still needs to be answered. In the rejection/e-tron case, we're talking about a a chalice that can't be cheated out turn 1 can can be stopped by the very card that answers the rest of the deck.
Between Chalice and Cavern of Souls, you can't reliably count on Rejection to save you. It's definitely good, but it's not even back-breaking. It's more of a speed bump.
Remember, Chalice is a 4x main, meaning they'll have one to play on turn 2 nearly 50% of the time. Chalice also shuts off lots of cards from lots of decks, not just Rejection. The card wrecks hard and is played in the main deck with virtually no downside.
Yet Eldrazi Tron is not putting up nearly the same numbers as its eye of ugin predecessor. Its just good against some decks.
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Which other aggro strategies would those be? Kithkin tribal? Remember how well the Wild Nacatl ban went?
Advocating for the ban of ET isn't a knee-jerk idea. The threat of a second Eldrazi Winter will always be present as long as that card is legal. Probably not with the same numbers but it would still be in the deep end of banworthy territory.
If people want to wait for the PT to make it apparent that's fine but saying that it isn't a potential problem is a mass delusion.
In all fairness I've pushed for a temple ban since eldrazi winter. Recent results and trends, if anything, just cement the notion that they will have to get rid of it eventually, before the PT.
Affinity is an odd fish since it is the one top tier deck in the format that wasn't hit by a ban, not once. There is one possible banworthy card in that deck but since people have just recently advocated to urban artifact lands I don't even want to go there.
E-Tron was the 3rd most played deck on day 2 with 6 total lists. Of those 6 three made top 16, two of which were in the finals.
We might not even be talking about this if affinity won the other match but the problem as it is would still be there. Even if you unbanned Stoneforge Mystic.
They could ban it now to avoid accusations of a shake-up ban right before the PT, but then it will surely be perceived as arbitrary and the community's trust in the list's management will suffer. Goes to show that they really should have axed both lands when they had the chance.
Reasoning here is similar to Zvi's when he commented on WotC's first decision on Felidar Guardian. Mind you these cases are very different from each other but the point is if you have a clear shot you should take it.
As a reprint it wouldn't be format warping in a way another moon variant might be and on the plus side it would help the kind of decks that need the help against big mana.
There is a fine line between wanting a shorter ban list (which is good) and calling for an unban of artifact lands for example. If I seem overly conservative it's because I'm trying to be realistic about a given card's chances of reentering the format. Pierrebai's thoughts on bbe are something I can get behind and it is the real reason I think it's unban is unrealistic.
You could of course say that bbe isn't that much more powerful than what e-tron is doing but that opens up a whole new can of worms.
People really are kind. I'm single-handedly holding back Modern? Do I do emergency bans too? I'm trying really hard not use slander in my comments here but expecting the same courtesy seems like a fool's errand.
I've playing Jund for years now (before bbe was banned) and I honestly don't see how you don't jam 4 BBE in every list. Find me someone who thinks otherwise and I'll show you a bold-faced liar.
Funny thing is I wasn't even against the unban as such. I just wanted to point out some potential side effects of such a move but here I am holding the format back and throwing spokes into the wheel of progress...
I wouldn't mind playing it again but I wouldn't waste a thought on Kalitas, Olivia or Huntmaster if that card was around, at least as far as the md is concerned.
On the other hand there is a worse scenario, one in which you get exactly what you want and it doesn't matter anyway (Thopter Foundry comes to mind).
God does this sound condescending.
Your own data shows a significant uptick for E-Tron in the past few months and when I say ET should be considered for banning you're telling me I'm trolling?
It's good of you to post that data but deciding who gets to take what away from said data is way out of line.
Both cards needed to get banned.
Not sure about it then being a bad tron deck. TKS is still a card and adding Ancient Stirrings to a deck like this doesn't exactly make it worse.For one thing it would open up space for different eldrazi decks (Gx mostly).
I'm well aware of the current meta shares. My views and opinions are based purely on the fact that Eldrazi Temple is a fundamentally unbalanced card in this field that homogenized midrange decks almost like no card before it (DS decks come off more as tempo decks to me). It would take something like DRS to unseat E-Tron and that's not even remotely possible or healthy.
To make myself clear: ET is the only problem card in E-Tron. I'm almost certain the deck could work without it and be good enough without kicking all the other midrange decks into tier 4 territory.
Jund wasn't tier 0 when DRS and BBE were banned.
Voldemort wasn't tier 0 when it was banned and neither was Birthing Pod or any other deck except eldrazi come to think of it.
Most of those decks were fair-ish and didn't break the turn 4 rule and they still got chopped. Why should E-Tron be exempted?
In no uncertain terms ET was responsible for The Worst period in this format's history. There is no good reason to go soft on it...
So you would advise waiting for it's metagame share to be greater then the combined share of all the other tier one decks before considering bans? Pretty slick.
The problem with rejection Vs chalice is what happens when they draw and cast chalice before you find your counter. SSG is still a card which those decks can play if they prioritize chalice enough, like they did at the pt.
Advocating for the ban of ET isn't a knee-jerk idea. The threat of a second Eldrazi Winter will always be present as long as that card is legal. Probably not with the same numbers but it would still be in the deep end of banworthy territory.
If people want to wait for the PT to make it apparent that's fine but saying that it isn't a potential problem is a mass delusion.
Affinity is an odd fish since it is the one top tier deck in the format that wasn't hit by a ban, not once. There is one possible banworthy card in that deck but since people have just recently advocated to urban artifact lands I don't even want to go there.
We might not even be talking about this if affinity won the other match but the problem as it is would still be there. Even if you unbanned Stoneforge Mystic.