Depending on your counter suite you could easily counter all of those cards on curve. The benefit you recieve for doing so is more time to set up your combo turn. Taking four or even six per turn is much more managable then taking 10 or more and if marvel doesn't stick an aetherworks on curve you can go under them and combo them out. Censor is quite good at this since it is a cantrip with an upside. Rebuke is much more difficult for them to play around on the other hand and you can present it starting turn one. Refueling might be an issue with the mono U version but cycling effects can help you with that. There is also splashing but me advocating that would probably be percived as heavily biased. Havent had the chance to play with commit but that card does make torrential gearhulk much more appealing.
I'm really uncofortable with the eschewing of Metallic Rebuke from the maindeck, or most forms of countermagic for that matter. For one thing Marvel decks are still faster then us or at least more consistent. Dealing with Aetherworks Marvel on the stack is much preferable to trying to deal with Ulamog after two of your lands got nuked. Gideon and HoK are also noteworthy counter targets. Overall I think that playing maindeck counters improves your odds against the field at large. You don't have to be on board with Censor but rebuke should be non-negotiable.
Sram alone is worth the splash and I would probably play him even if I didn't play a single other white card. It's very hard to wiff on your combo turn with him in play, he helps get you to the combo turn by making all your equipment effective cantrips. Worst case scenario he can even block! He is a lightning rod for removal but you usually don't cast him without being able to cantrip at least once, similar to the play pattern with Goblin Electromancer in storm decks. The mana base is actually quite stable. The only thing I'm debating is the number of cycling lands but the deck can afford to play at least three.
Before the cat was banned I used to play Repel the Abominable in the main as fog effects against the field. Other white cards I've played were Fumigate and Fragmentize. I have yet to settle on an acceptable sideboard configuration but having the option to play relevant white cards if I happen to need them comes at practically no cost.
Went 3-1-0 tonight, taking a draw in the final round to split prizes. Played against BG Delirium, Mardu Vehicles and BR Eldrazi in that order. Took a draw against WB Control (though I lost the match after we casually played it out). The list I went with is as follows:
I originally planned on playing Cast Out in the main but switched to Censor in the last minute (on the basis I could more easily cycle it once I didn't need it since blue mana was much more readily available then white) and I couldn't have been happier with the results. I was countering Heart of Kiran and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar like nobody's business. Generally speaking all the decks I've played against had the tendency to tap out to play their high end threats and that's where Censor got them. I was siding it out when I was on the draw more often then not but it was still an excellent card to have for game one.
All that being said my first tournament with this deck in this new format could have gone a lot worse...
No point looking a gift horse in the mouth. The ban needed to happen and the fact that they did get around to it, even if they had to be prodded by the community at large, is still commendable.
I'm not really sure I would characterize it as an "emergency ban" in the same way Memory Jar got axed though. It's pretty close in the sense they've added a card to the original announcement before the it went into effect but the card in question was a very well known quality and which, arguably, should have been banned in March, not a completely new card from the set that was just released. The prize on the line was not the game itself, at least I don't think it was.
Standard, right now, is as wide open as you can hope for it to be. There is exactly one police deck still running around which is fine as it gives deck builders a starting point when approaching the format. Where we go from there is anyone's guess but it certainly wont be turn 4 kitty death. The Pro Tour is looking better then ever and I'm certain the pros will step up and show up with interesting new brews, new takes on old format staples or maybe even something completely different.
Yes but all the decks have better side boards. By Force is ridiculous against this deck and definitely better than Manglehorn.
By Force can be good against us, true. Is it better the Release the Gremlins in the overall meta? I'm not betting on anyone playing By Force over it anytime soon.
Manglehorn on the other hand I see as much more of a problem. Apart from the shatter effect it also causes all our artifacts to ETB tapped which means no Inspiring Statuary shenanigans until we deal with it. This is relevant because the effect, and by extension the card itself, also matters against Copy Cat since they won't be able to combo off with that card in play either so we are bound to take splash damage from that.
All that being said the deck still has enough elbow room to work around that issue, especially with the new cards from Amonkhet.
I don't think the situation with the hate cards is as bad as you people make it out to be. The most problematic card will probably be Maglehorn (and to a point Dissenter's Deliverance)but it isn't the end of the world since it can be countered or even killed. I would by a brew to the first guy who plays Dispossess against me in this Standard (but if you feel people are out to get You that badly you can always play Approach of the Second Sun in the sideboard). Cast Out is nice, but it can also be countered or even exiled by our own Cast Out if we end up playing the UW version since the card solves planeswalkers which is something for an answer was sorely needed.
Bottom-line is it's still more or less the same metagame with the same two decks and Amonkhet did pump out a few new goodies for this deck which I've already mentioned...
After a brief intermission I've returned to fiddling around with this deck once more. Looking at the full Amonkhet spoiler these are the cards that come to mind as possible inclusions (in either of the UW or Mono U versions):
Approach of the Second Sun - Alternate win condition out of the sideboard. Playing one in a deck that can draw as many cards as the Sram version seems sufficient. It could also be a win more since Aetherflux Reservoir would also win you the game in the scenario in which you cast this card twice on your turn. Stretching it out across three or so turns seems like where you want to be with this card but I would need to test it to see how it plays out. Cast Out - An instant speed removal spell that deals with just about anything is as much as you can hope for with this deck. I'm just not sure about how I would distribute them among my 75. Censor - This is primarily for the Mono U crowd. You could use this as a counter in the early game and a cantrip once you start comboing. It might also allow you to get away with running fewer lands. Irrigated Farmland - A good upgrade for the UW mana base. Battle lands ware always a bit lackluster in practice but these lands also double as cantrips once you've hit enough land drops.
Concerning the lists in the past few posts I'm really not sure you want Ornithopter at all. It can be a terrible topdeck in a tight spot and you should already have enough low cost artifacts to make playing the full playset redundant anyway. Also Metallic Rebuke seems like a must in all the lists now since 4C Saheeli isn't going anywhere and you really need answers to the turn 4 combo, not to metion a host of other cards like Gideon or Aetherflux Marvel.
No use crying over spilled milk. Barring some kind of intervention from Gods Above the Copy Cat combo will be Standard legal for at least another six weeks. Spikes and grinders should make the most of it while the casual crowd can either step away or "walk it off" (at least the pros agree with that).
It's just sad that Standard, as a format, has devolved this much in such a short time period. It's been quite a while since we've had a two deck format and frankly it's not something I'm looking forward to repeating.
If I recall correctly there was maybe one occasion on which a initiative from the pros resulted in a policy change just before the PT. I think it was about them changing the format for the upcoming PT from Extended to Standard or something along those lines. Any chance of a repeat of that with a Felidar Guardian ban?
Personally I don't see today's announcement being anything other then "no changes". The format seems diverse enough. Sure not all core strategies are equally represented across the tiers but I don't think that has ever been a realistic ban list guideline. None of the most popular decks pushes the envelope enough to warrant a drastic intervention. If they feel something is off about DSJ they will probably just ban said card but I don't see it happening yet.
On the other hand I don't think there is any card on the banned list that's being "pained for" by the format. Cantrips are too risky to take off and provide generally little to no reward for taking said risk (they would do much more for combo then control in any case) and don't even get me started on Stoneforge Mystic. Jace would always be nice to have back but that would be an excessive move towards pushing control in this format.
I'm kind of skeptical of them doing anything before PT Amonkhet is in the books. They did say that is the earliest point at which we can expect bans. Amonkhet seems like it will bring quite a few good additions to the format and it may just well be that the format will correct itself, maybe even before the PT. However, if anything does get banned next Monday it will/should probably be Felidar Guardian if for no other reason then to make five drops good again.
The straw that broke the camel's back with Stoneforge Mystic wasn't Batterskull but Sword of Feast and Famine. Paring her with any equipment cards you would normally play on their own merits (of which there are quite a few in Modern and that list goes up significantly once you can reliably tutor for them) and reasonable evasive threats is just asking for trouble.
After thinking about it a bit more, I'm pretty sure traverse is getting the axe in the next update or the next one after that. It's as op as GSZ.
SFM has a reasonable chance of getting unbanned but I'm not that sure of that.
So you basically want to swap a fair tutor for a tutor that also cheats said tutored cards into play?
I thought the whole point of banning tutors and cantrips was to increase variance so multiple games can play out differently. What you are suggesting is more of a color preference thing then a balancing thing and is inherently biased.
Traverse the Ulvenwald isn't by any means ban-worthy. For one thing it doesn't, unlike some of the tutors already legal in Modern (or Stoneforge Mystic for that matter) sideline the actual mana costs of any of the cards it searches up. Not to mention it does require much more setup then Stoneforge Mystic or, say, Collected Company; Tarfire isn't something you really want to play on it's own merits, nor is Mishra's Bauble.
Speaking of Stoneforge Mystic please don't bring up the "dies to removal" argument. It has been done to death and nobody is convinced. I could just as easily say Hypergenesis is OK because "it can be countered" but I don't think I'd have any takers on that one. It's a really powerful card that would most certainly have a major impact on the format as it would substantially raise it's power level which is why I'm almost certain WotC aren't considering unbanning it.
Just to set the record straight the scarcity of control decks, blue based ones in particular, in Standard is a recent phenomena. Last spring's rotation really did a number on those decks from which they haven't recovered from since. Amonkhet looks well positioned to change that and in a perfect world it should be able to do so without bans.
Having said all this I feel like WotC spits in my face every damn time I see a Cancel reprint. It's been plain filler for over 10 years now and it's getting old. They made their point that unconditional counters with no drawbacks shouldn't cost less then three. Maybe some more experimentation with conditional counters at two or less would be more appropriate (Censor is a very guarded step in that direction but it is a welcome one nonetheless)?
Getting Counterspell back might end up having unforeseen consequences though. Not on Standard in particular (which it Would) but on the counter suite we have available in that format. I would like to see it back at some point but not if it's return meant we would lose access to other cheap counters like Dispel or Negate. To top it all off having Counterspell around would almost certainly mean that we wouldn't be getting other relevant new counterspells for at least two years. I love the card, I really do, but the price for having it back seems rather steep.
Before the cat was banned I used to play Repel the Abominable in the main as fog effects against the field. Other white cards I've played were Fumigate and Fragmentize. I have yet to settle on an acceptable sideboard configuration but having the option to play relevant white cards if I happen to need them comes at practically no cost.
7 Island
4 Port Town
2 Irrigated Farmland
1 Prairie Stream
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Spire of Industry
2 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Renegade Map
3 Censor
4 Metallic Rebuke
2 Baral's Expertise
2 Anticipate
4 Reverse Engineer
4 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Whir of Invention
2 Inspiring Statuary
3 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Whir of Invention
4 Bastion Inventor
2 Fumigate
2 Cast Out
1 Repel the Abominable
2 Crush of Tentacles
I originally planned on playing Cast Out in the main but switched to Censor in the last minute (on the basis I could more easily cycle it once I didn't need it since blue mana was much more readily available then white) and I couldn't have been happier with the results. I was countering Heart of Kiran and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar like nobody's business. Generally speaking all the decks I've played against had the tendency to tap out to play their high end threats and that's where Censor got them. I was siding it out when I was on the draw more often then not but it was still an excellent card to have for game one.
All that being said my first tournament with this deck in this new format could have gone a lot worse...
I'm not really sure I would characterize it as an "emergency ban" in the same way Memory Jar got axed though. It's pretty close in the sense they've added a card to the original announcement before the it went into effect but the card in question was a very well known quality and which, arguably, should have been banned in March, not a completely new card from the set that was just released. The prize on the line was not the game itself, at least I don't think it was.
Standard, right now, is as wide open as you can hope for it to be. There is exactly one police deck still running around which is fine as it gives deck builders a starting point when approaching the format. Where we go from there is anyone's guess but it certainly wont be turn 4 kitty death. The Pro Tour is looking better then ever and I'm certain the pros will step up and show up with interesting new brews, new takes on old format staples or maybe even something completely different.
All in all this ban gets a pass.
No Felidar Guardian.
What does this do for us in the big picture?
By Force can be good against us, true. Is it better the Release the Gremlins in the overall meta? I'm not betting on anyone playing By Force over it anytime soon.
Manglehorn on the other hand I see as much more of a problem. Apart from the shatter effect it also causes all our artifacts to ETB tapped which means no Inspiring Statuary shenanigans until we deal with it. This is relevant because the effect, and by extension the card itself, also matters against Copy Cat since they won't be able to combo off with that card in play either so we are bound to take splash damage from that.
All that being said the deck still has enough elbow room to work around that issue, especially with the new cards from Amonkhet.
Bottom-line is it's still more or less the same metagame with the same two decks and Amonkhet did pump out a few new goodies for this deck which I've already mentioned...
Approach of the Second Sun - Alternate win condition out of the sideboard. Playing one in a deck that can draw as many cards as the Sram version seems sufficient. It could also be a win more since Aetherflux Reservoir would also win you the game in the scenario in which you cast this card twice on your turn. Stretching it out across three or so turns seems like where you want to be with this card but I would need to test it to see how it plays out.
Cast Out - An instant speed removal spell that deals with just about anything is as much as you can hope for with this deck. I'm just not sure about how I would distribute them among my 75.
Censor - This is primarily for the Mono U crowd. You could use this as a counter in the early game and a cantrip once you start comboing. It might also allow you to get away with running fewer lands.
Irrigated Farmland - A good upgrade for the UW mana base. Battle lands ware always a bit lackluster in practice but these lands also double as cantrips once you've hit enough land drops.
Concerning the lists in the past few posts I'm really not sure you want Ornithopter at all. It can be a terrible topdeck in a tight spot and you should already have enough low cost artifacts to make playing the full playset redundant anyway. Also Metallic Rebuke seems like a must in all the lists now since 4C Saheeli isn't going anywhere and you really need answers to the turn 4 combo, not to metion a host of other cards like Gideon or Aetherflux Marvel.
It's just sad that Standard, as a format, has devolved this much in such a short time period. It's been quite a while since we've had a two deck format and frankly it's not something I'm looking forward to repeating.
If I recall correctly there was maybe one occasion on which a initiative from the pros resulted in a policy change just before the PT. I think it was about them changing the format for the upcoming PT from Extended to Standard or something along those lines. Any chance of a repeat of that with a Felidar Guardian ban?
On the other hand I don't think there is any card on the banned list that's being "pained for" by the format. Cantrips are too risky to take off and provide generally little to no reward for taking said risk (they would do much more for combo then control in any case) and don't even get me started on Stoneforge Mystic. Jace would always be nice to have back but that would be an excessive move towards pushing control in this format.
So you basically want to swap a fair tutor for a tutor that also cheats said tutored cards into play?
I thought the whole point of banning tutors and cantrips was to increase variance so multiple games can play out differently. What you are suggesting is more of a color preference thing then a balancing thing and is inherently biased.
Traverse the Ulvenwald isn't by any means ban-worthy. For one thing it doesn't, unlike some of the tutors already legal in Modern (or Stoneforge Mystic for that matter) sideline the actual mana costs of any of the cards it searches up. Not to mention it does require much more setup then Stoneforge Mystic or, say, Collected Company; Tarfire isn't something you really want to play on it's own merits, nor is Mishra's Bauble.
Speaking of Stoneforge Mystic please don't bring up the "dies to removal" argument. It has been done to death and nobody is convinced. I could just as easily say Hypergenesis is OK because "it can be countered" but I don't think I'd have any takers on that one. It's a really powerful card that would most certainly have a major impact on the format as it would substantially raise it's power level which is why I'm almost certain WotC aren't considering unbanning it.
Having said all this I feel like WotC spits in my face every damn time I see a Cancel reprint. It's been plain filler for over 10 years now and it's getting old. They made their point that unconditional counters with no drawbacks shouldn't cost less then three. Maybe some more experimentation with conditional counters at two or less would be more appropriate (Censor is a very guarded step in that direction but it is a welcome one nonetheless)?
Getting Counterspell back might end up having unforeseen consequences though. Not on Standard in particular (which it Would) but on the counter suite we have available in that format. I would like to see it back at some point but not if it's return meant we would lose access to other cheap counters like Dispel or Negate. To top it all off having Counterspell around would almost certainly mean that we wouldn't be getting other relevant new counterspells for at least two years. I love the card, I really do, but the price for having it back seems rather steep.