I dont believe BridgeVine was teir 1 at all. It had no plan b whatsoever.
In the end, I would rather we have Hogaak/Altar, than Bridge/Altar.
Probably true. When Stitcher's Supplier came out, Bridge Vine did well for a very short period of time. Much of that could have been player's uncertainty on the deck. I personally felt at the time that outside of Humans, there wasn't much else I cannot beat in Game 1. Games 2 and 3 were different, as extreme grave hate turned my deck into trying to win with a 2/1 and a 1/1 Menace.
So, you may certainly be right. I just don't think banning Bridge ONLY solves a turn 2/3 Hogaak and I don't think that's acceptable You can ask the Path to Exile crowd and they may believe so, but most others probably don't.
When Bloodbraid Elf was banned, I had told people for months that Deathrite Shaman should have been the ban. I had played against Bloodbraid Elf for years and years - an amazing card, but not really broken. I mostly heard 2 answers to this - indifference and "no, it should be Bloodbraid Elf." I think Wizards is reticent of such a mistake and would not like to do it again. Hogaak is not even selling Modern Horizons. There's tons of good cards and Hogaak went from $35 to $5 now. I would say that even Plague Engineer has more hype, going from $1 to $4 now.
On another note, the funny thing to me is that after Deathrite Shaman eventually got banned and then Bloodbraid Elf unbanned years later, most people I know started saying that it was the correct ban all along. Where were these people when Bloodbraid Elf originally got banned? I literally don't know.
First of all, I agree that Bridge from Below has no place in Modern. The card is literally used only in decks that can abuse it well. How else can you understand the costs of potentially having multiple copies stuck in your hand, where it does nothing?
But Hogaak is definitely the ban that will stop turn 2/3 Hogaaks, but allow Bridge Vine to move on slightly better than before. (Bridge Vine was fine before. I tried Gerry T's Pro Tour list and did Top 8, miss top 8 barely being 1 turn short, and 2-4 another of 3 PPTQs I played it before I stopped. Once it became a known commodity, the deck was just another Tier 1/Tier 2 deck. Hogaak pushes it past that. Altar is not playable outside of Hogaak existing.)
Exactly. Having to play that many pieces of graveyard hate just to slow it down is very unhealthy. Outside of 2 bans, the only ban that will somewhat contain the deck is Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis. Take it from someone who plays the deck...
"You can't spend mana to cast this spell"
As if that's a big drawback.
Also, just ban the hogaak, altar is cool and bridge was never a problem before
I believe this is the correct ban. Bridge Vine gets a strict upgrade in Carrion Feeder over Viscera Seer, but still is a manageable deck. Altar is not a given in the deck anymore because the mill plan is not deterministic without Hogaak. (You need a lotta Vengevines, Bridges, and Bloodghasts right away.)
Any decks that attack from several angles though are hard to deal with.
this is pretty much a prerequisite for any competitive deck in modern atm.
i mean that is really what has been changing the landscape of modern. its not the rise of 'hyper linear' decks or whatever you want to call it, but rather the rise of lean aggressive strategies that have resiliency and adaptability/flexibility baked in.
so play patterns gravitate towards extremes. games feel more like jousting and less like fencing with critical, usually game deciding, decision points instead of accruing small advantages in resources or board position.
really i think that is why people dislike these GY centric decks. the forms of interaction (ie hate) intrinsically 'swingy' compared to removal, discard, or counter magic.
Yep. You force your opponent to have TWO different ways to stop your angles AND a win-con of their own.
I haven't played against Mardu Pyromancer for at least 6 months now (as far as I can remember), but I would assume it would be terrible.
You could always play 3 Ravenous Traps in the board and perhaps 3 Nihil Spellbomb in the main to go along with Surgical Extraction. Then you could make a game of it, as the tokens can block the tokens and dinky creatures in Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis fairly profitably. Without the explosive plays, Hogaak Vine is just a fairly bad Aggro deck.
That's really sad. I hope you can find some place that you enjoy, as "the gathering" is the biggest part in Magic to me.
In my area, there are many players that are very receptive. Obviously players can get salty at times, but most local players have a personality at least. For me if I didn't have that, I'd quit on the spot. There's literally no reason for me to play without at least that. I don't mind playing a few of those types at Grand Prix every once in a while if it means that I get to play competitive players, which is something else that I value very much.
I would not give up so soon if I were you. When my brother's best friend and I got back into the game during Mirrodin/Kamigawa, the players at the store that we went to were very COLD to us. After a few tournaments of us winning 1st and 2nd every time and everyone started to love us. Winning in Magic comes with notoriety, even if on a very tiny scale, lol. If I win even a local 1K, I notice friend requests on FB and people that I haven't talked to in a while hit me up. It's mostly in good nature and I know good friends from acquaintances, but I just wouldn't give up so soon if I were you. Obviously I realize it's tougher if someone is in it just for the social aspect - for me, I enjoy that AND Competition. Actually there are many aspects of Magic that I LOOOOVE.
I don’t know what deck to play. I enjoy midrange decks a ton, and I also like combo. I have a three hundred dollar budget. I am only just getting into modern from standard, and this will be my first modern deck aside from mono green infect. Thoughts?
I think UR Storm would be a good option for you. It's super tough to find a Modern deck for around $300, but Storm fits the bill.
I would like my deck to be competitive since I don't enjoy playing a deck if I know it's not very good even though it might be my play style otherwise. I was thinking about Izzet Phoenix Humans but I'm not sure.
Either of those would be very good. You may wanna try Esper Shadow - I heard it has a good Hogaak matchup as well. I'm not so sure about vs. other decks though, as I saw 1 of those at a recent tournament fall on its face with a good pilot. So I would do some research first of course, but it's probably as good a time as any for Esper Shadow.
When would be the best time to pickup a play set of Urza?
You can probably wait. The prices seem to be dropping slowly, as Wren and Six accelerates to the most pricey card in the set at $50. (Well, it's been that way for a week now, but the gap is growing...)
As someone who plays this deck, I don't think banning Bridge from Below is enough. I think there has to be multiple bans, like Hogaak AND Altar of Dementia or Hogaak and Bridge from Below. I personally don't think a turn 2/3 8/8 Tramply fellow is all right for Modern. But maybe I'm wrong? Stitcher's Supplier is another card many forget about and is one of this deck's best draws. That and Faithless Looting...
What are people doing with their flex slots? I'm building this deck and thinking of including 2-3 Leyline of the Void in the main deck. I'm also trying more fetch lands than normal so I can do more tricks with Bloodghast
I have 2 Cathartic Reunion. I think you wanna have more draw, at least from what I heard Kanister (Piotr Glogowski) say when I watched his stream.
as for SFM, had given up long ago that it will be unbanned. Perhaps somewhere in the distant future, as a last attempt at a cash grab before WoTC finally goes under..
It's really, really sad though. That card is literally worse than at least 5 other current Modern cards and most of us know it (including you of course).
In this current format, here's the cards that I think could NOT even compete with Hogaak - Splinter Twin, Gitaxian Probe, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Dread Return, Birthing Pod. I described to my family how I won a tiny tournament today with Hogaak. I said that basically the deck that I was playing has an upper hand against any other deck.
When I've played Neoform, I know I've done better. But I feel a lot of that is luck and experience with Glass Cannon decks for me. With Hogaak, I've made plenty of errors, but as long as I know how to cast Altar of Dementia on turns 2/3 and the necessary creatures on the other turn of turns 2/3, I know how to win. I've done a lot of good sequencing, but I've noticed some small errors that I have made that could have cost me. With Neoform, I'm 14-2. Hogaak, 12-4 so far.
Round 1 vs. Burn. I combo out on turn 3 after turn 2 Altar of Dementia. In the next game, I get killed before I can untap on turn 3. In the final game, I turn 4 mill him out and he scoops. He may not have known that he could upkeep throw burn at me. He had 3 cards in hand and I was at 5. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. BW Sorins. In the first game, he our 3 Wrath of God, getting my turn 2 Hogaak and friends. I am lucky to draw a land to start flashing back Faithless Lootings and this is what won the game. I had gas later on, bringing back the Vengevine and then Hogaak. Got there. In the next game, he did Extirpate on Bridge from Below, but Vengevines and friends get there. He also had to mulligan to 5 this game. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Druid Devastation. In game 1, I lose to the combo on turn 3 on the draw for me. I probably had him on my turn 3. In the next game, I get the combo on turn 3 after he set up his own possible turn 3. In the final game after a mull to 6, I scry Thoughtseize to the bottom because I want to find a 2nd land. I do have Lightning Axe, which slows him down, but I find land #2 on turn 3 to set up a turn 4 win. But he combos off again and kills me. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. UR Phoenix. In the first game, he plays Thing in the Ice. I kill him on turn 3. In the next game, I Thoughtseize and take Finale of Promise, which I think was a mistake. I should have taken Sleight of Hand. He had Negate and I had Altar of Dementia, but I could put creatures out to put him on the back foot and then play it when he deals with th creatures. He ends up Bolt, Looting, Thought Scour and attack with 2 Phoenix to put me to 6. Dead next turn, I cast Altar of Dementia and go off pretty easily. Tough matchup for him and he definitely made the right call, putting me on a next turn dead clock. I had drawn a 2nd Altar of Dementia by that time, so I could have cared less if I get the first one Negated. 2-0.
Round 5 vs. GW Elves. If I draw, there's a chance I get only top 5, which only top 4 moves on. That is what would have happened, as all the other pieces fell into place. But I got there, going off on turn 3 after he dork into Elvish Archdruid in game 1. In game 2, I smell Rest in Peace, so I save my Looting. He doesn't have it, but does turn 2 Dwayne's Elite, so I respond with Lightning Axe. Then I get Thoughtseize on turn 3 to do it, snaring Reclamation Sage from him before landing an Altar of Dementia. I win the very next turn. 2-0.
Top 4 vs. Druid Devastation. We split in the top 4, but he doesn't want the play mat. He scoops to me. Whew! Could have been tough, although I was the #1 see, so on the play potentially. 2-0
Finals vs. Storm. In the first game, he Remands my turn 3 win. He untags and tries to go off, but doesn't have the Electromancer dude, so he just Grapeshots my board a bit, but I Faithless Looting, drawing a Bloodghast and play a land, getting 2 Bloodghasts to swing for lethal. In the next game, I can't deal with a turn 2 Electromancer and he wins on turn 3, knowing that it looked like I win on my turn 3 since I had cast Altar of Dementia. The final game is ugly. I keep a stupid hand - a 1 lander that had 2 Bridge from Below in it. My first 2 draw steps were Leyline of the Void X 2, but after 3 Remand, I find land while he has 6 in play, and go off to mill him for lethal. He had 2 cards in hand and I was scared that he would have Noxious Revival and go off with everything in the yard for Past in Flames. I should have obviously mulliganed to Thoughtseize, Lightning Axe, or Leyline of the Void. Dumb, dumb. At least mull to 2 land... Better lucky than good. 2-1.
I go 6-1, including the win! I found out later on that there's a larger tournament nearby. Kinda sad for that, but happy that the deck performed well.
Honestly the way the format is right now, Dread Return could be unbanned. Dread Return does nothing more for graveyard decks that Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis and Altar of Dementia don't already do. This is saying something, as I don't really think that Dread Return should be unbanned. It just shows the silliness of WotC in that Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, and Preordain are banned, (Finale of Devastation and Scour the Possibilities putting a nail in the final 2), but graveyard shenanigans like the current meta are allowed. It's really interesting.
P.S. - If Twin was legal nowadays, I'm certain they would run main board Surgical Extractions and/or Ravenous Traps along with Simian Spirit Guide. It's really the only way to compete currently.
The magic pro stuff is currently an absolute mess.
This.
There's not much else you can say without getting into a full fledged conversation/discussion. He plays out of a shop 80 mi. from me, although I frequent it because it's an amazing place. I definitely do feel like he's been snubbed. I don't have much bias here in my opinion since I have friends that are on both sides. I guess it doesn't really matter how you feel about somebody - if they should be in, they should be in.
How do you play Hoogak in turn 2 without involving high Dredge cards? Sounds as plausible as playing 4 Hollow Ones off a Burning Inquiry. Even with dregdge cards, I doubt it is anywhere close to Dread Return in power level.
2 lands, Stitcher's Supplier, and Carrion Feeder. If the lands are fetch lands, of which the deck is 9 of 16 lands are, that's 2 + 3 cards in the graveyard. Assuming you have Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis or have hit something like a Bridge from Below and Bloodghast, you will have plenty of creatures to sacrifice to Carrion Feeder to make Zombies to Convoke and Delve out Hogaak.
Hogaak is usually a safer play on turn 3 because you don't want something to happen to him without a sacrifice outlet in play. The safer play is usually turn 2 Altar of Dementia. This usually puts the writing on the wall, depending on the yard of course, to the opponent that it's kill or be killed the very next turn.
Probably true. When Stitcher's Supplier came out, Bridge Vine did well for a very short period of time. Much of that could have been player's uncertainty on the deck. I personally felt at the time that outside of Humans, there wasn't much else I cannot beat in Game 1. Games 2 and 3 were different, as extreme grave hate turned my deck into trying to win with a 2/1 and a 1/1 Menace.
So, you may certainly be right. I just don't think banning Bridge ONLY solves a turn 2/3 Hogaak and I don't think that's acceptable You can ask the Path to Exile crowd and they may believe so, but most others probably don't.
When Bloodbraid Elf was banned, I had told people for months that Deathrite Shaman should have been the ban. I had played against Bloodbraid Elf for years and years - an amazing card, but not really broken. I mostly heard 2 answers to this - indifference and "no, it should be Bloodbraid Elf." I think Wizards is reticent of such a mistake and would not like to do it again. Hogaak is not even selling Modern Horizons. There's tons of good cards and Hogaak went from $35 to $5 now. I would say that even Plague Engineer has more hype, going from $1 to $4 now.
On another note, the funny thing to me is that after Deathrite Shaman eventually got banned and then Bloodbraid Elf unbanned years later, most people I know started saying that it was the correct ban all along. Where were these people when Bloodbraid Elf originally got banned? I literally don't know.
But Hogaak is definitely the ban that will stop turn 2/3 Hogaaks, but allow Bridge Vine to move on slightly better than before. (Bridge Vine was fine before. I tried Gerry T's Pro Tour list and did Top 8, miss top 8 barely being 1 turn short, and 2-4 another of 3 PPTQs I played it before I stopped. Once it became a known commodity, the deck was just another Tier 1/Tier 2 deck. Hogaak pushes it past that. Altar is not playable outside of Hogaak existing.)
I believe this is the correct ban. Bridge Vine gets a strict upgrade in Carrion Feeder over Viscera Seer, but still is a manageable deck. Altar is not a given in the deck anymore because the mill plan is not deterministic without Hogaak. (You need a lotta Vengevines, Bridges, and Bloodghasts right away.)
Yep. You force your opponent to have TWO different ways to stop your angles AND a win-con of their own.
I haven't played against Mardu Pyromancer for at least 6 months now (as far as I can remember), but I would assume it would be terrible.
You could always play 3 Ravenous Traps in the board and perhaps 3 Nihil Spellbomb in the main to go along with Surgical Extraction. Then you could make a game of it, as the tokens can block the tokens and dinky creatures in Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis fairly profitably. Without the explosive plays, Hogaak Vine is just a fairly bad Aggro deck.
In my area, there are many players that are very receptive. Obviously players can get salty at times, but most local players have a personality at least. For me if I didn't have that, I'd quit on the spot. There's literally no reason for me to play without at least that. I don't mind playing a few of those types at Grand Prix every once in a while if it means that I get to play competitive players, which is something else that I value very much.
I would not give up so soon if I were you. When my brother's best friend and I got back into the game during Mirrodin/Kamigawa, the players at the store that we went to were very COLD to us. After a few tournaments of us winning 1st and 2nd every time and everyone started to love us. Winning in Magic comes with notoriety, even if on a very tiny scale, lol. If I win even a local 1K, I notice friend requests on FB and people that I haven't talked to in a while hit me up. It's mostly in good nature and I know good friends from acquaintances, but I just wouldn't give up so soon if I were you. Obviously I realize it's tougher if someone is in it just for the social aspect - for me, I enjoy that AND Competition. Actually there are many aspects of Magic that I LOOOOVE.
Either of those would be very good. You may wanna try Esper Shadow - I heard it has a good Hogaak matchup as well. I'm not so sure about vs. other decks though, as I saw 1 of those at a recent tournament fall on its face with a good pilot. So I would do some research first of course, but it's probably as good a time as any for Esper Shadow.
You can probably wait. The prices seem to be dropping slowly, as Wren and Six accelerates to the most pricey card in the set at $50. (Well, it's been that way for a week now, but the gap is growing...)
Yes, it was. Technically I didn't beat him since he scooped to me after we top 4 split. He didn't want the play mat. I did.
I have 2 Cathartic Reunion. I think you wanna have more draw, at least from what I heard Kanister (Piotr Glogowski) say when I watched his stream.
It's really, really sad though. That card is literally worse than at least 5 other current Modern cards and most of us know it (including you of course).
In this current format, here's the cards that I think could NOT even compete with Hogaak - Splinter Twin, Gitaxian Probe, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Dread Return, Birthing Pod. I described to my family how I won a tiny tournament today with Hogaak. I said that basically the deck that I was playing has an upper hand against any other deck.
When I've played Neoform, I know I've done better. But I feel a lot of that is luck and experience with Glass Cannon decks for me. With Hogaak, I've made plenty of errors, but as long as I know how to cast Altar of Dementia on turns 2/3 and the necessary creatures on the other turn of turns 2/3, I know how to win. I've done a lot of good sequencing, but I've noticed some small errors that I have made that could have cost me. With Neoform, I'm 14-2. Hogaak, 12-4 so far.
Round 1 vs. Burn. I combo out on turn 3 after turn 2 Altar of Dementia. In the next game, I get killed before I can untap on turn 3. In the final game, I turn 4 mill him out and he scoops. He may not have known that he could upkeep throw burn at me. He had 3 cards in hand and I was at 5. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. BW Sorins. In the first game, he our 3 Wrath of God, getting my turn 2 Hogaak and friends. I am lucky to draw a land to start flashing back Faithless Lootings and this is what won the game. I had gas later on, bringing back the Vengevine and then Hogaak. Got there. In the next game, he did Extirpate on Bridge from Below, but Vengevines and friends get there. He also had to mulligan to 5 this game.
Round 3 vs. Druid Devastation. In game 1, I lose to the combo on turn 3 on the draw for me. I probably had him on my turn 3. In the next game, I get the combo on turn 3 after he set up his own possible turn 3. In the final game after a mull to 6, I scry Thoughtseize to the bottom because I want to find a 2nd land. I do have Lightning Axe, which slows him down, but I find land #2 on turn 3 to set up a turn 4 win. But he combos off again and kills me. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. UR Phoenix. In the first game, he plays Thing in the Ice. I kill him on turn 3. In the next game, I Thoughtseize and take Finale of Promise, which I think was a mistake. I should have taken Sleight of Hand. He had Negate and I had Altar of Dementia, but I could put creatures out to put him on the back foot and then play it when he deals with th creatures. He ends up Bolt, Looting, Thought Scour and attack with 2 Phoenix to put me to 6. Dead next turn, I cast Altar of Dementia and go off pretty easily. Tough matchup for him and he definitely made the right call, putting me on a next turn dead clock. I had drawn a 2nd Altar of Dementia by that time, so I could have cared less if I get the first one Negated. 2-0.
Round 5 vs. GW Elves. If I draw, there's a chance I get only top 5, which only top 4 moves on. That is what would have happened, as all the other pieces fell into place. But I got there, going off on turn 3 after he dork into Elvish Archdruid in game 1. In game 2, I smell Rest in Peace, so I save my Looting. He doesn't have it, but does turn 2 Dwayne's Elite, so I respond with Lightning Axe. Then I get Thoughtseize on turn 3 to do it, snaring Reclamation Sage from him before landing an Altar of Dementia. I win the very next turn. 2-0.
Top 4 vs. Druid Devastation. We split in the top 4, but he doesn't want the play mat. He scoops to me. Whew! Could have been tough, although I was the #1 see, so on the play potentially. 2-0
Finals vs. Storm. In the first game, he Remands my turn 3 win. He untags and tries to go off, but doesn't have the Electromancer dude, so he just Grapeshots my board a bit, but I Faithless Looting, drawing a Bloodghast and play a land, getting 2 Bloodghasts to swing for lethal. In the next game, I can't deal with a turn 2 Electromancer and he wins on turn 3, knowing that it looked like I win on my turn 3 since I had cast Altar of Dementia. The final game is ugly. I keep a stupid hand - a 1 lander that had 2 Bridge from Below in it. My first 2 draw steps were Leyline of the Void X 2, but after 3 Remand, I find land while he has 6 in play, and go off to mill him for lethal. He had 2 cards in hand and I was scared that he would have Noxious Revival and go off with everything in the yard for Past in Flames. I should have obviously mulliganed to Thoughtseize, Lightning Axe, or Leyline of the Void. Dumb, dumb. At least mull to 2 land... Better lucky than good. 2-1.
I go 6-1, including the win! I found out later on that there's a larger tournament nearby.
P.S. - If Twin was legal nowadays, I'm certain they would run main board Surgical Extractions and/or Ravenous Traps along with Simian Spirit Guide. It's really the only way to compete currently.
This.
There's not much else you can say without getting into a full fledged conversation/discussion. He plays out of a shop 80 mi. from me, although I frequent it because it's an amazing place. I definitely do feel like he's been snubbed. I don't have much bias here in my opinion since I have friends that are on both sides. I guess it doesn't really matter how you feel about somebody - if they should be in, they should be in.
2 lands, Stitcher's Supplier, and Carrion Feeder. If the lands are fetch lands, of which the deck is 9 of 16 lands are, that's 2 + 3 cards in the graveyard. Assuming you have Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis or have hit something like a Bridge from Below and Bloodghast, you will have plenty of creatures to sacrifice to Carrion Feeder to make Zombies to Convoke and Delve out Hogaak.
Hogaak is usually a safer play on turn 3 because you don't want something to happen to him without a sacrifice outlet in play. The safer play is usually turn 2 Altar of Dementia. This usually puts the writing on the wall, depending on the yard of course, to the opponent that it's kill or be killed the very next turn.