If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
Refusing to straight up buy a new deck = deserve to lose because not willing to adjust? Is this a joke?
There were 2, maybe 3 decks during that period that could hang with Eldrazi. In a format as expensive as this, you seriously expect people to buy a new deck in the name of adjustment just to be able compete in some events?
This isn't being blunt, it's being stupid.
In some metas yeah, but using Eldrazi Winter as an example of players deserving to lose because of lack of adaptation is dumb af.
There's people that have played Affinity since late 2012 and their deck has not always been competitive. Likewise for Jund, UW Control, and probably other decks. Should their deck always be viable? I don't think anyone would say so. The truth is it's somewhere in the middle of what you and I are both saying.
You don't see me running Grishoalbrand during the recent era of everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction. Likewise, there hasn't been anything ever printed since 2012 for Bogles, but there's been plenty of hate, most of which is utilized in multiple matchups. You don't see me here complaining that I can't always win 70% of my matches with Bogles. (I haven't touched either deck for quite a while now.)
I'm not saying that people have to change their decks to the meta as often as someone has to for Standard. Modern is different. But then again, complaining about poor matchups in Modern has never been a new thing. "I am upset because my Tron deck can't beat Infect. I want a 1 mana cantrip rock that does 1 damage to a creature on the way to the yard." "It sucks that my Midrange or Control deck rarely beats Tron. They should just ban Tron or at least give me a fighting chance."
As for Eldrazi, yes some people were very, very upset that their Jund deck could not beat it. Eldrazi Winter is an extreme example of course because that writing was on the wall for anyone who played it or played against it. I'm just saying that some players decided to do the gentlemanly thing and not change their decks at all so that they would not win matches. But they certainly had the right to complain about it. I guess it's just 2 ways of thinking - A) I'll play the deck that gives me the best chance to win or B) I won't because it will get banned anyway.
*Regarding Hogaak Vine, I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that banning Altar of Dementia will not hurt the deck enough. A turn 2 Hogaak can be dealt with mostly only by Path to Exile, so decks without it are pretty much assed out. An 8/8 Trample on turn 2 is not acceptable in my opinion. Bridge from Below is not played in Modern Dredge, so that possible ban does not hurt anything. It just bans a card that begs to be broken. When I bought those cards during FS, I literally thought it was one of my cards that had the potential to hit $100 before eating a super rough ban some day. There's nothing fair about that card, obviously. You have to literally ban Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Carrion Feeder to slow the deck, or it would be multiple pieces. Who knows with Wizards? Honestly they could just be **** It, it's time for Faithless Looting to go.
**Sorry for the typos. It keeps changing "match ups" to matches because match ups is not a word and Grishotlbrand is a word, but g r i s h o a l b r a n d is not. There's probably more.
What happened to Reshape? I don't remember it being above $7. It's $25 now.
Urza edh hype
Is it possible that it's from the Modern Urza deck? I know that deck hasn't been proven competitive. There was 1 in the top 8 of that 189 person Win a Mustang tournament in Alabama (Gamers and Geeks). Does THAT deck play Reshape? I guess I can look it up, lol.
Wow! This thread really took off since I've been gone getting slaughtered at a MCQ.
Hogaak Vine just won the Gamers and Geeks 2005 Mustang GT tournament. The player was a player who I used to occasionally play with in California, but I see he's moved on. (I think the tournament was in Alabama) For what it's worth, you can look it up on Facebook.
Before the MCQ and in between rounds, I played it vs. a local player who runs Cheerios. After I beat him in the first game, he literally slaughtered me the next 3 games in a row. But players are not willing to make deck changes like this because, "who likes Cheerios?" He's happy for this type of meta. I am all right with this type of meta because I could move on to NeoBrand, which is just quicker than a deck like Hogaak Vine that has literally no disruption for NeoBrand in its 75. (sorry, 2 SB Thoughtseize)
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
I do think something is going to get banned in Hogaak Vine. I prefer a Modern Horizons card (Hogaak/Altar) because things were not really fine, but not bannable per se before this set. Carrion Feeder also definitely helped, but it's not the culprit.
Remember what I said about Ravenous Trap? Already went up from $3.40 to $5 so far. Not sure how far it can go, but makes sense that it is in an upward projectile currently, even if it is hard to buyout an uncommon.
Played Hogaak Vine in a Team Trios today. I personally went 4-2 and our team got 5th (out of prizing for only top 4) because of an early concession by a teammate.
Round 1 vs. Esper. I was up 1-0 when my teammates won. I probably would have lost game 2. I drew all except 4 lands in my deck with more than half my deck left.
Round 2 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares than he does.
Round 3 vs. Burn. He wins by having a certain number of cards, I don't draw Altar, and he is dead both times on the crack back if he doesn't do exact lethal.
Round 4 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares.
Round 5 vs. Humans. I lose 0-2 because I draw Altar of Dementia on the final turn before exact lethal both times with not enough mana to cast it. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Round 6 vs. Devoted Druid combo. We are tied 1-1 in the final game, but it looked like my mediocre beats were going to beat Rest in Peace.
Pretty disgusting tournament for local great players who were prepared for the deck, for the most part.
But I will say this. The Hogaak Vine deck is very, very strong and can play through multiple forms of hate. If you have all the hate, they can beat you down with a bunch of 2/1s and Carrion Feeder. In my opinion, it is one of the strongest decks I've ever played in Modern. It is in the top 5 - I would say UR Eldrazi was number 1, and Rhino Pod, Bloom Titan, Grishoalbrand, GGT Dredge, and the new Hogaak Vine deck all take up the next 4-5 spots.
*Also, regarding the turn 4 rule, NeoBrand is a HUGE offender. That deck either wins, turn 1, 2, 3, or usually not at all after that. Maybe I've just gotten extremely lucky? Everyone I know watched LSV stream it and draw horribly and came to the conclusion that if LSV can't 5-0 (10-0 in games), then it's a terrible deck. I watched some of those games too and I stopped watching when he kept drawing terrible hands.
26 person FNM.
Round 1 vs. Tron. I empty my hand out ridiculously quickly and even turn 3 Tron on the play, Karn or Wurmcoil would not be enough since I had a creature sacrifice outlet and he was low on life. No grave hate seen here and game 2, I do Ingot Chewer to chew an Expedition Map on turn 2. This bought me time. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Mono Red Phoenix. In the first game, he played Bolts and Prowess Bros on the play to put me to 1 life. But I untap and mill him out to win. In the next game, he Loots Phoenix into Bolt/Bolt/Surgical Extraction my Vengevines, swing with Phoenix. I can't race this, although I have him dead on board on my turn 3 to a quick draw, but he untaps and Bolt, Bolt, Forked Bolt. I die. In the final game, it is similar, but I am able to block a Prowess dude with a Zombie from Bridge from Below, after he Prowess dude into Loot, Bolt, Surgical Extraction and Phoenix swing. But I have nothing on the untap. May have gotten there if I found an Altar of Dementia or Hogaak. Maybe... 1-2.
Round 3 vs. UB Mill. He does Surgical Extraction X 2 in game 1, but I cast Hogaak from hand and swing him twice. In the next game, he got Extirpate X 2 and Surgical Extraction X 2, but I once again finally draw Hogaak (he had no milling pressure) and swing him twice. He had 2 cards in hand before the lethal swing after drawing a card for the turn. He played Ensnaring Bridge (and I had no Altar of Dementia left in the deck), but I had Shenanigans in my graveyard. I Dredge 1. Ingot Chewer falls in the graveyard and he scoops. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. UR Phoenix. In the first game, he missed flipping a turn 2 Thing in the Ice on turn 3 on the play, so he had to chump Hogaak, Carrion Feeder, or Vengevine for lethal. He can't win after that. In the next game, he DOES flip Thing in the Ice, even after turn 1 Ravenous Trap when I Loot 2 Bridge from Below in the yard. Manamorphoses get it flipped and he Bolts enough stuff out of the way, while adding a Phoenix to the mix to finish me. In the final game, he has Ravenous Trap, but I put 2 cards in the yard, play a bunch of 1 mana dudes and Delve 2 cards to cast Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis on turn 3. He scoops. 2-1.
I finish 3-1. Another guy finished 4-0 with the deck. Amazing deck! Definitely gives me an upper hand and I have not always had that in Modern.
This was my search from 5-1-19 to 6-14-19. Surely this can't be the only reason, outside of a buyout, that Teferi's Puzzle Box spiked? Odd to me. I guess it's more speculation of what it does with Narset, Parter of Veils more than someone actually going out and getting results that show up on mtgtop8?
Do you have a deck list for a list with Teferi's Puzzle Box? I saw the card spike a bunch and I was curious as to what it is being played in specifically. (In addition to a buyout of course.)
The other option is I can probably type Teferi's Puzzle Box in mtgtop8 and see what deck lists pop up.
Back on Modern-relevant topics, I'm looking forward to running 2 main deck and 4-6 sideboard GY hate pieces to fight the inevitable influx of Hogaak decks that will take over the store this FNM.
Relic of Progenitus main and either Ravenous Trap or Leyline of the Void for the SB. These would be the strongest in my opinion, although I haven't tested SBed games with Hogaak Vine enough to know which are the worst in each situation.
I feel you. My friend who doesn't even play that much says that if they hit $10, he's buying literally thousands of dollars worth of them. I believe him because he managed to get 8 of the 10 War of the Spark Mythic Boxes that he ordered (through varying identities of course). I told him they won't hit that. But it got me thinking. I may be willing to invest around $500 myself towards a bunch of these if they do in fact go down to that price.
*As of right now, I actually need 4 Nurturing Peatland foils for my Elves deck to replace Horizon Canopies. It's one of the few decks that I actually really enjoy playing in Modern right now.
**I should also state that Ravenous Trap seems to be on the move (again) a bit. I'm telling you, any card that helps deal with the new Hogaak Vine deck is definitely going to be precious material in the next few months. Humans is probably one of the few decks that can somewhat hang with it, so Humans could possibly go up as well, but that's a bit of a stretch.
I learned this many years ago when our local Pro Player (pure Control player) used to run Kithkin at FNM (just to prove that he can beat scrubs with anything, not just Control). He always ran 4 Horizon Canopy, which I questioned at first. Then I quickly realized it just gives more options with very little drawback.
Yep, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis is what makes the deck super strong. It's tough to beat a turn 2 8/8 trampler. That makes even Death's Shadow look puny. But the Altar puts the deck in a different dimension, where turn 3s are the norm.
(I'm speaking as someone who's been testing the deck like crazy the past 3 days.)
Wow, your latest tournament report makes this deck's combo turns seem pretty inconsistent, FoodChainGoblins. I don't really recall fizzling whenever I draw 14 or more cards in a single turn.
I really should have specified how I comboed out in game 1. I did turn 1, Summoner's Pact for Allosaurus Rider, exile Summoner's Pact AND Nourishing Shoal to cast Allosaurus Rider, exile Simian Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, Neoform the Rider for Griselbrand.
Exiling a Nourishing Shoal makes it tougher to find #2-4. But with Celestial Colonnade in play, I had to decide whether things would get better later on or when he's tapped out. I'd rather lose while fizzling than to some random Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or the more common, Logic Knot or Mana Leak.
In the next game, I went off on turn 4 with a Pact of Negation (which I eventually would lose to) for his Spell Queller. In this game, I did NOT exile Nourishing Shoal or Summoner's Pact, but I had a pocket of 3 Nourishing Shoal in 4 cards near the bottom of my deck when I checked after losing. As someone who played Grishoalbrand for over a year, these types of shuffles can happen. (with any deck for that matter; when I play test GB Rock, I rarely have turn 1 discard )
*Sorry if there's any typos. My computer keeps changing the spelling and I get tired of typing the same stuff over and over again.
There's people that have played Affinity since late 2012 and their deck has not always been competitive. Likewise for Jund, UW Control, and probably other decks. Should their deck always be viable? I don't think anyone would say so. The truth is it's somewhere in the middle of what you and I are both saying.
You don't see me running Grishoalbrand during the recent era of everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction. Likewise, there hasn't been anything ever printed since 2012 for Bogles, but there's been plenty of hate, most of which is utilized in multiple matchups. You don't see me here complaining that I can't always win 70% of my matches with Bogles. (I haven't touched either deck for quite a while now.)
I'm not saying that people have to change their decks to the meta as often as someone has to for Standard. Modern is different. But then again, complaining about poor matchups in Modern has never been a new thing. "I am upset because my Tron deck can't beat Infect. I want a 1 mana cantrip rock that does 1 damage to a creature on the way to the yard." "It sucks that my Midrange or Control deck rarely beats Tron. They should just ban Tron or at least give me a fighting chance."
As for Eldrazi, yes some people were very, very upset that their Jund deck could not beat it. Eldrazi Winter is an extreme example of course because that writing was on the wall for anyone who played it or played against it. I'm just saying that some players decided to do the gentlemanly thing and not change their decks at all so that they would not win matches. But they certainly had the right to complain about it. I guess it's just 2 ways of thinking - A) I'll play the deck that gives me the best chance to win or B) I won't because it will get banned anyway.
*Regarding Hogaak Vine, I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that banning Altar of Dementia will not hurt the deck enough. A turn 2 Hogaak can be dealt with mostly only by Path to Exile, so decks without it are pretty much assed out. An 8/8 Trample on turn 2 is not acceptable in my opinion. Bridge from Below is not played in Modern Dredge, so that possible ban does not hurt anything. It just bans a card that begs to be broken. When I bought those cards during FS, I literally thought it was one of my cards that had the potential to hit $100 before eating a super rough ban some day. There's nothing fair about that card, obviously. You have to literally ban Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Carrion Feeder to slow the deck, or it would be multiple pieces. Who knows with Wizards? Honestly they could just be **** It, it's time for Faithless Looting to go.
**Sorry for the typos. It keeps changing "match ups" to matches because match ups is not a word and Grishotlbrand is a word, but g r i s h o a l b r a n d is not. There's probably more.
Is it possible that it's from the Modern Urza deck? I know that deck hasn't been proven competitive. There was 1 in the top 8 of that 189 person Win a Mustang tournament in Alabama (Gamers and Geeks). Does THAT deck play Reshape? I guess I can look it up, lol.
Hogaak Vine just won the Gamers and Geeks 2005 Mustang GT tournament. The player was a player who I used to occasionally play with in California, but I see he's moved on. (I think the tournament was in Alabama) For what it's worth, you can look it up on Facebook.
Before the MCQ and in between rounds, I played it vs. a local player who runs Cheerios. After I beat him in the first game, he literally slaughtered me the next 3 games in a row. But players are not willing to make deck changes like this because, "who likes Cheerios?" He's happy for this type of meta. I am all right with this type of meta because I could move on to NeoBrand, which is just quicker than a deck like Hogaak Vine that has literally no disruption for NeoBrand in its 75. (sorry, 2 SB Thoughtseize)
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
I do think something is going to get banned in Hogaak Vine. I prefer a Modern Horizons card (Hogaak/Altar) because things were not really fine, but not bannable per se before this set. Carrion Feeder also definitely helped, but it's not the culprit.
Remember what I said about Ravenous Trap? Already went up from $3.40 to $5 so far. Not sure how far it can go, but makes sense that it is in an upward projectile currently, even if it is hard to buyout an uncommon.
P.S. - How many players have 1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn in their SB?
Round 1 vs. Esper. I was up 1-0 when my teammates won. I probably would have lost game 2. I drew all except 4 lands in my deck with more than half my deck left.
Round 2 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares than he does.
Round 3 vs. Burn. He wins by having a certain number of cards, I don't draw Altar, and he is dead both times on the crack back if he doesn't do exact lethal.
Round 4 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares.
Round 5 vs. Humans. I lose 0-2 because I draw Altar of Dementia on the final turn before exact lethal both times with not enough mana to cast it. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Round 6 vs. Devoted Druid combo. We are tied 1-1 in the final game, but it looked like my mediocre beats were going to beat Rest in Peace.
Pretty disgusting tournament for local great players who were prepared for the deck, for the most part.
But I will say this. The Hogaak Vine deck is very, very strong and can play through multiple forms of hate. If you have all the hate, they can beat you down with a bunch of 2/1s and Carrion Feeder. In my opinion, it is one of the strongest decks I've ever played in Modern. It is in the top 5 - I would say UR Eldrazi was number 1, and Rhino Pod, Bloom Titan, Grishoalbrand, GGT Dredge, and the new Hogaak Vine deck all take up the next 4-5 spots.
*Also, regarding the turn 4 rule, NeoBrand is a HUGE offender. That deck either wins, turn 1, 2, 3, or usually not at all after that. Maybe I've just gotten extremely lucky? Everyone I know watched LSV stream it and draw horribly and came to the conclusion that if LSV can't 5-0 (10-0 in games), then it's a terrible deck. I watched some of those games too and I stopped watching when he kept drawing terrible hands.
Round 1 vs. Tron. I empty my hand out ridiculously quickly and even turn 3 Tron on the play, Karn or Wurmcoil would not be enough since I had a creature sacrifice outlet and he was low on life. No grave hate seen here and game 2, I do Ingot Chewer to chew an Expedition Map on turn 2. This bought me time. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Mono Red Phoenix. In the first game, he played Bolts and Prowess Bros on the play to put me to 1 life. But I untap and mill him out to win. In the next game, he Loots Phoenix into Bolt/Bolt/Surgical Extraction my Vengevines, swing with Phoenix. I can't race this, although I have him dead on board on my turn 3 to a quick draw, but he untaps and Bolt, Bolt, Forked Bolt. I die. In the final game, it is similar, but I am able to block a Prowess dude with a Zombie from Bridge from Below, after he Prowess dude into Loot, Bolt, Surgical Extraction and Phoenix swing. But I have nothing on the untap. May have gotten there if I found an Altar of Dementia or Hogaak. Maybe... 1-2.
Round 3 vs. UB Mill. He does Surgical Extraction X 2 in game 1, but I cast Hogaak from hand and swing him twice. In the next game, he got Extirpate X 2 and Surgical Extraction X 2, but I once again finally draw Hogaak (he had no milling pressure) and swing him twice. He had 2 cards in hand before the lethal swing after drawing a card for the turn. He played Ensnaring Bridge (and I had no Altar of Dementia left in the deck), but I had Shenanigans in my graveyard. I Dredge 1. Ingot Chewer falls in the graveyard and he scoops. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. UR Phoenix. In the first game, he missed flipping a turn 2 Thing in the Ice on turn 3 on the play, so he had to chump Hogaak, Carrion Feeder, or Vengevine for lethal. He can't win after that. In the next game, he DOES flip Thing in the Ice, even after turn 1 Ravenous Trap when I Loot 2 Bridge from Below in the yard. Manamorphoses get it flipped and he Bolts enough stuff out of the way, while adding a Phoenix to the mix to finish me. In the final game, he has Ravenous Trap, but I put 2 cards in the yard, play a bunch of 1 mana dudes and Delve 2 cards to cast Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis on turn 3. He scoops. 2-1.
I finish 3-1. Another guy finished 4-0 with the deck. Amazing deck! Definitely gives me an upper hand and I have not always had that in Modern.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22007&d=348539&f=MO
This was my search from 5-1-19 to 6-14-19. Surely this can't be the only reason, outside of a buyout, that Teferi's Puzzle Box spiked? Odd to me. I guess it's more speculation of what it does with Narset, Parter of Veils more than someone actually going out and getting results that show up on mtgtop8?
The other option is I can probably type Teferi's Puzzle Box in mtgtop8 and see what deck lists pop up.
Relic of Progenitus main and either Ravenous Trap or Leyline of the Void for the SB. These would be the strongest in my opinion, although I haven't tested SBed games with Hogaak Vine enough to know which are the worst in each situation.
Lol.
I feel you. My friend who doesn't even play that much says that if they hit $10, he's buying literally thousands of dollars worth of them. I believe him because he managed to get 8 of the 10 War of the Spark Mythic Boxes that he ordered (through varying identities of course). I told him they won't hit that. But it got me thinking. I may be willing to invest around $500 myself towards a bunch of these if they do in fact go down to that price.
*As of right now, I actually need 4 Nurturing Peatland foils for my Elves deck to replace Horizon Canopies. It's one of the few decks that I actually really enjoy playing in Modern right now.
**I should also state that Ravenous Trap seems to be on the move (again) a bit. I'm telling you, any card that helps deal with the new Hogaak Vine deck is definitely going to be precious material in the next few months. Humans is probably one of the few decks that can somewhat hang with it, so Humans could possibly go up as well, but that's a bit of a stretch.
I learned this many years ago when our local Pro Player (pure Control player) used to run Kithkin at FNM (just to prove that he can beat scrubs with anything, not just Control). He always ran 4 Horizon Canopy, which I questioned at first. Then I quickly realized it just gives more options with very little drawback.
(I'm speaking as someone who's been testing the deck like crazy the past 3 days.)
Cards like this are driving me away from Modern. I'm just waiting for the "fixed" Stoneforge Mystic and then I'm probably out.
I really should have specified how I comboed out in game 1. I did turn 1, Summoner's Pact for Allosaurus Rider, exile Summoner's Pact AND Nourishing Shoal to cast Allosaurus Rider, exile Simian Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, Neoform the Rider for Griselbrand.
Exiling a Nourishing Shoal makes it tougher to find #2-4. But with Celestial Colonnade in play, I had to decide whether things would get better later on or when he's tapped out. I'd rather lose while fizzling than to some random Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or the more common, Logic Knot or Mana Leak.
In the next game, I went off on turn 4 with a Pact of Negation (which I eventually would lose to) for his Spell Queller. In this game, I did NOT exile Nourishing Shoal or Summoner's Pact, but I had a pocket of 3 Nourishing Shoal in 4 cards near the bottom of my deck when I checked after losing.
*Sorry if there's any typos. My computer keeps changing the spelling and I get tired of typing the same stuff over and over again.
My version BTW
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Allosaurus Rider
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
2 Griselbrand
2 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Autochthon Wurm
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Lightning Storm
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Neoform
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Serum Visions
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dissenter's Deliverance
4 Pact of Negation
2 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization