I was reading Jon Finkel's newest AMA on Reddit this afternoon and he brought up something very interesting when asked what card he would ban/unban in constructed formats if he could. His answer totally blew me a way, and it got better and better the more I thought about it. His answer was simply...
"Ban Fetchlands"
All 10 of them from Onslaught & Zendikar. Now think about that for a second... what would Legacy be like if fetchlands weren't part of the format? First off, you wouldn't be able to have all these 3 color "good stuff" card advantage decks that have been ruling Legacy for quite a while. You couldn't just pick the best couple of cards in any given color and toss them together while hoping to retain a stable manabase. Decks would need to be built with a much more concise strategy and synergy in mind rather than the currently popular ideology of "we'll just throw all the good stuff together with enough blue cards to support Force of Will".
Another interesting side effect of this is that the financial entry barrier to Legacy would go way down. Since 98% of Legacy decks are designed to run on 3 or less lands I think you'd start seeing lots of multi-colored decks running the Scars dual lands rather than A/B/U duals since they'll be doing the exact same thing for a small fraction of the cost. Without fetchlands there's no reason not to save yourself some cash on your multi-colored lands. On that note, I'd also imagine a rise in the popularity of mono-colored decks for their overall stability. Merfolk, Goblins, Pox, Burn, Elves, etc. would likely start seeing a lot more play due to their reliable mana bases.
Lastly, people would finally stop complaining about Brainstorm. Without Fetchlands I doubt Brainstorm (or Sensi's Divining Top for that matter) would see much play, at which point Preordain would likely become the go-to digging tool for blue decks. Who knows though, the instant speed option of Brainstorm might still be enough to keep it around even without fetchlands to shuffle away the unwanted cards. In any case, I doubt people would really take much issue with Brainstorm if fetchlands weren't around to shuffle away the unwanted cards.
I'm sure there's 100 more interesting changes I haven't though of that would occur in Legacy with the banning of Fetchlands, but it certainly does seem like a good idea to me to increase the format's overall health and diversity.
Banning fetchlands would kill Legacy as a format unless they reprinted original duals. Right now, you can get into the format with Zen fetches and picking up just one each of the duals you want. Banning the fetches would mean running playsets of duals for EVERY deck, and with availability already being a barrier to entry for a lot of people, this move would only make it worse.
The nice thing about Legacy is that there are so many different viable decktypes out there that you're sure to be able to find one you enjoy, and they tend to have a greater degree of depth to them compared to their equivilent in other formats, and you can play something as simple or complex as you like. Burn. Merfolk. Goblins. Belcher. Zoo. Stoneblade. Rock. NO-Bant. MUD. CounterTop. T.E.S./ANT/Spanish Inquisition. Lands. The list goes on and on, and into the varients of the decktypes I listed. And while only a certain number of decks are listed as "competitive" or "established", I would venture to say that there are a lot more decks than just those perfectly capable of taking down a GP or something on the right day of the week.
My favorite thing about Legacy? Occasionally pausing for a few seconds, examining the board state, and then realizing that I am actually getting to use some of the most famous, powerful cards in Magic's history. I like being able to play games with big, infamous pieces of Magic's past. Force of Will. Dual Lands. Metalworker and stuff from Urza block. I'm excited to see Recurring Nightmare poking its head back onto the tournament scene in Nic Fit lists. Hell, I built Stiflenaught because ever since I was a little kid, I wanted to kill someone with a Phyrexian Dreadnaught. I built T.E.S. because I wanted to learn how to pilot an incredibly complex deck, and it's been extremely rewarding to that end. Also, I get to play Lion's Eye Diamond.
Sometimes, I take an opening hand from a deck, and I look at cards that go throughout all 15+ years of my Magic playing career, and I tell myself "damn, I love this format."
Funny, my favourite thing about Legacy is when my opponent has to pick up a card I played, read it a few times and then ask "What is this?"
And how cool is a format where both of our scenarios are commonplace?
I won't comment too much on your list as I think that would be better addressed in the Junk thread, but I think your equipment package should be cut down to 3 and I would probably play Liliana of the Veil over Sorin or Garruk. If you're looking for creature tutors, Green Sun's Zenith seems better than Garruk.
I do like the breakdown of Thalias in your 75.
The main purpose of the PWs is to provide a stream of bodies to equip. Liliana's not alot of help there lol.
The biggest problem with the list is it's not commiting to disruption or aggression, and isn't really good enough at either as a result. Liliana would be part of a commitment to disruption probably. Really, the list was built from "I want to play X, Y and Z cards today!" not "What list will give me the biggest edge in the metagame" and is pretty bad as a result. I just provided it for reference.
Today, I played in my first Legacy event in four and a half (!) years or so. It was a 31 player event, with a Time Walk as the prize. Now, I remember Legacy from a few years ago, and how much anticipation of the metagame plays into making the correct play decisions, so I really didn't have any illusions of winning, but I had a bunch of store credit saved up for the store hosting the event, and finally had the cards to play something respectable in the format, so I went out anyway. Before going into things, here the list I ultimately ended up with:
Nothing resembling a perfect list, I know, but I had trouble deciding what I wanted to play. This did hurt me, especially in my first two rounds, where I had trouble drawing the parts of my deck I needed for the matchup.
Round one was up against a RWU Delver deck. Game one I was flooded with land and died summarily after my first two attempts to resolve a threat were coutnered. Game two, I mulliganed poorly, kept a six card one lander and by the time I saw a second land, I was nearly dead already. Not only did I mulligan badly here, I also believe I should have sideboarded more heavily. Granted, his counterwall ensured I didnt resolve a single spell all game, but I stll think I needed to add more. Specifically, he made heavy use of Snapcaster Mage and Grim Lavamancer, so I think I should have brought in at least teh spellbomb. Likewise, Pernicious Deed should have been maindeck to begin with, let alone being sided in against a deck whose curve tops out at 3. As it was, I never saw the Phrexian Crusaders I boarded in anyway, but I do believe that if I had, I would have locked him down, as his removal (and indeed, the only removal I saw all day) consisted of Swords, Paths and Bolts. Regardless, I lost in two, but at least my opponent was someone I knew from back when I used to play, and we were firnedly, so we chatted and it was a good-spirited throttling.
Round two was against Bant. Game one I had the Thoughtseizes I had wished for in round one, two in my opneing hand, along with a Knight, and snap-kept. I drew a third Thoughtseize, and stripped Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary and Elspeth from his hand. Unfortunately, I drew only land from then on, and his Swords cleared out my Knight and he beat me down with a Rhox War Monk. Game two, I again kept a 6 card 1 land hand for fear of mulling down, this time believing that two Noble Hierarchs made it playable. Oh how wrong I was. My opponent was kind enough to Path the third Hierarch I tried to play, but he had a Knight of the Reliquary to match mine, as well as a Scavenging Ooze that ensured that he won the Reliquary wars. Kicking myself, I lost another round 0-2.
I headed into Round Three feeling a little dejected. My goal had been to at least win a couple games and not emberass myself, and it looked like I was failing at even that. But my opponent was good-natured and joking about his own winless record, so that made it easier. He was playing an Esper-coloured Painter's Stone combo deck. Game one he made a rather huge error. Having seen my hand already and knowing I had a Maelstrom Pules, he played a second Painter's Servant without Grindstone at teh ready, and then failed to draw any more action after I pulsed them. Meanwhile, my deck curved perfectly with turn one Hierarch into turn two Knight, turn three Stoneforge and the beatdown was on. Game two was much closer, and it was only a combination of Thalia and Crucible/Wasteland that allowed me to keep him from comboing off. I mulliganed more aggressively that round, going down to 5 game two, and it paid off. Mulligan decisions have been the weakest part of my game for some time, but it is finally hitting home just how to mulligan, not jsut based on my deck, but even analysing my hand for my opponent's deck.
Round Four was UW Stoneblade, most hated of matchups for me. I won in two games, both coming down to drawn-out attrition. Game one was noteworthy for being the first time I actually drew into my planeswalkers, getting both Sorin and Garruk into play. Ultimately that was how I took over what would have been a lost game, as the steady stream of lifelinking tokens from Sorin allowed me to come back and bought me the time to draw into my answers. As is my tradition though, anything that was really strong game one but not core to the deck gets boarded out, so the Sorins and Garruk came out, and more removal went in instead. Game two involved both of us keeping removal-heavy hands and spending many turns playing draw-go, then removing a creature whenever it hit the board. In the end, I had a bigger threat density in my deck than him, and that was what saw me breaking through with a Knight, who brougth out the Tower of the Magistrate that ended his ability to present a threat that could even try to outclass a 10/10 knight.
Round five was played basically for fun, as no one at our table was in contention for top 8, but we all wanted to play anyway. My opponent was playing a Necrotic Ooze combo deck, though I never saw the Ooze and isntead faced down Vengevine beatdown. Game one I was overrun, game two I got a warning for forgetting my Dark Confidant trigger (twice today! Of all cards, I should know better), but my staggered graveyard hate was enough to pull it off. I have to say I love Ravenous Trap, particularly with cards like Wasteland and Pernicious Deed that allow me to generate the free casting clause. Game three he had an explosive start, with a turn two Wild Mongrel letting him pitch Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla, playing the Rootwalla with Madness and getting the Vengevine in and swinging. He got me down to 4 before I stabilized. I was able to wasteland one land and Pulse the Mongrel, leaving him on Vengevine, Rootwalla, Quirion Ranger and Dryad Arbor, while I had a Tormod's Crypt out and at the ready. I had Sorin and Garruk in hand, and 3 land. Noble Hierarch and Stoneforge Mystic were in play. I was going to play Garruk, fight the Vengevine, Crypt and pray, until I did the math. This was the game where Sorin showed his value. I played Sorin, made a dude. He swung at me with everything, I blocked the Vengevine with the Vampire, the Ranger with the Mystic, and took two, gained one, went to 3. Next turn, play Garruk, fight the Dryad Arbor, make a vampire, chump the Vengevine and go up to 4. Another turn of chumping vampire gave me a little more life, and set Sorin up to steal his remaining board. It was the best example of how Sorin is able to help stabilize and take over games. In Legacy even more than Standard, his lifelinking tokens buy him the time to use his ultimate, which turns games around fast. The fact that he can get to his ultimate before Jace does is also significant.
Overall, I had a good time, and learned some things. 2 Sorins was definitely too many, but I really wnated to see him in play. Garruk on the other hand, I would run more of, easily going up to 2 or 3. He has so many good targets to come down and fight, and tutoring is always useful. Pernicious Deeds should have been main all day, as they came in in every single matchup. I was disappointed that I never got to see Phyrexian Crusader in play, since I really do think he can take over the game pretty quickly as well.
All in all, it's great to be playing Legacy again!
I've played BW Tokens at every local event I've played in since DA came out (that's every FNM, and several other weekend events). These are not huge level affairs, but my local meta involves enough serious players running enough serious lists and archetypes that I think I have a good handle on the deck.
The first problem is that the best version of tokens is actually as a tap-out control deck right now. Other aggressive decks are better at aggression, while tokens arent fast enough to worry the permission decks. The deck I had the most success with was BW with a slight splash of G for sideboard purposes to flashback Ray of Revelation. The deck opens with things like Despise, spot removal, and in the best games drops a T2 Shrine of Loyal Legions. Board wipes weren't genreally an issue, in fact I ran Day of Judgment main because when 1 card can make 4+ bodies, I could recover faster than any opponent. Even Ratchett Bomb wasn't a problem because I ran enough spot removal to deal with recursion and single uses are dealt with by, as mentioned, not overextending. The key card for the deck though, is Vault of the Archangel. Everything else is support, but that card makes it work. If I hit an active vault, I would win against almost any opponent. No one can outrace me, and no one can trade with me because they will generally be losing several cards to my tokens, and i will still get the life puishing me over.
The thing is, I could never win every round. There are a couple of Achilles' heels that kill the deck on the spot. The first, and biggest, if WRR. I could beat it occasionally, but the deck hasn't got enough good answers to Inkmoth Nexus, and I would generally die to poison. Because Vault doesn't help against Nexus, it didn't matter if I was sitting at 40+ life and killed every Titan on sight. WRR's endgame trumps tokens.
The other major killers were Elesh Norn and even worse, Massacre Wurm. Elesh Norn wiped my board, then beat on me while I dug for removal. Massacre Wurm generally killed me in two turns, not only wiping my board, but burning me for 8 or so and then swinging in for the kill. What's worse, Elesh Norn is seeing more and more play as time goes on, creating more and more bad matchups.
So for now, I am putting BW tokens away, and I have a feeling that the Wolf Run matchup and the vulnerability to Elesh Norn are the reasons the pros have written off the deck for now. But those are both problems that will go away when Scars Block rotates.
As for Sorin himself, he does have other uses that people are finally starting to delve into. Esper Superfriends is an incredibly strong control deck that really emphasizes how difficult planeswalkers are to deal with en masse, and the fact that it can have both Sorin AND Elspeth out generating bodies togehter is huge. I can even see a GWB version coming along with Sorin, Elspeth and Garruk providing bodies together and taking over the board.
I have also been having some good results with a RWB Vampire deck which uses Sorin and actually gives me a good matchup against Wolf Run. No event results but I tested against WRR and in 20 games had around a 65% win percentage, which is far better than the near auto-loss I had with tokens, so I'll work with this direction for now.
Expect to see Sorin start popping up soon. His biggest virtues are the bodies and his ultimate, which will become more significant as Superfriends becomes more popular.
Dredge players shouldn't be worried about the cage. They've been dealing with cheap artifacts that get in their way as long as dredge has been around.
GSZ, Snapcaster, Natural Order, etc. These are the engines that the Cages gets in the way of. Incidentally, the Cage makes Chaos Warp a little more appealing. It is probably going to find a home in Affinity and Stax type decks, but it could also be good in a hatebear type deck.
I am testing a GW deck with them + teeg + green sun for bullets
The one I've been testing runs Garruk Relentless as its creature tutor, and runs maindeck Graffdigger's CAge because it just hoses so much of the format.
I'm just getting back into legacy, and tinkering with a junkish type list and running this little hate bear and she seems to be the real deal. Obviously Legendary hurts, but she would be ungodly without it. As it is, she shuts down Force of Will, protects you from hive mind kills, and carries a sword like a champion. Anyone else having any sucess with her?
Tonight at FNM I went 3-1 with the list I posted earlier.
Round One was against a UB zombie deck. I didn't win this round as much as my opponent lost it, as he kept terribly slow hands both games and by the time he got rolling, I was already sailing through the air with an active vault. I won in 2, but then we played some more games for fun, and his deck performed the way he expected and it was much tougher.
Round Two was a mirror match, and I won in 2 again. I was pleased to see my mirror tech work as I had hoped. Rather than race anthems, the green splash strictly to flashback Ray of Revelation was far more effective. Basically, drawing one Ray was as effective as drawing two anthems in terms of the race. Gideon was also a huge trump peice in this match.
Round Three was the only round I lost, against a Wolf Run Jund list close, but not quite identical to Conley Woods' list. I lost in 2, but it was explained after game two that I could have won had I not made a slight misplay (I made an Emblem on a turn when I should have made a vampire token). Game one was a close race, but he managed to poison me out the turn before I swung for lethal. Game two, I anticipated more Ratchett Bombs so I boarded out my shrines and brought in the full set of Stony Silence. This proved key as he went turn two Rampant Growth into turn three double Sphere of the Suns, which silence shut down. Unfortunately, it only delayed the inevitable, and his Massacre Wurm was a huge blowout that caught me offguard because before tonight, I've never seen it in any deck that wasn't mine lol. Still, I think this was a winnable match for the deck, and I was outplayed as a player.
Round Four was a black red aggro deck, mostly vampires. Game One he nearly overwhelmed me, curving rapidly into two Bloodline Keepers and Olivia Voldaren, but my choice of Increasing Devotion over Elsepth Tirel meant I had enough bodies to force him to block an alpha strike and Vault of the Archangel allowed me to wipe out his board, and I rode my two remaining tokens to victory. Game two he kept a sketchy hand with no red mana, and I had boarded in a little extra spot removal out of fear of his bombs, so I was able to kill his early black drops, and he didn't see red mana until the turn before I swung for lethal.
I definitely like the more controllish approach to the deck. Maindeck Day of Judgment is just too good to ignore. I prefer the curve of Despise into Shrine of Loyal Legions into Midnight Haunting for chumping as needed into Day, and then start flooding the board. And I stand by the assertion that the most important card in this deck is Vault of the Archangel. I cannot in good conscience ever try to run less than four of these again. As soon as it is active, it takes a miracle for you to lose.
Alright, so yesterday I got in some extensive testing time with a buddy. I was testing BW Tokens and Nearly Monogreen Aggro, and he was testing UB Zombies and RG Werewolves. As general info from the testing, Werewolves still aren't a real tribal deck (though some individual werewolves are still really dangerous, esepcially with Immerwolf. Seriously, Tokens is the only deck that can breathe easily around Kruin Outlaw these days), but Zombies are pretty insane now, and something to watch out for. 4 Maindeck Black Sun's Zenith and the ability to recover as fast or faster than us from it will make it a tough matchup, as well as the explosive endgame with Gravecrawler, Diregraf Captain and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born was actually brutal. I still think the match is in BW's favor, but wanted to warn people that that deck may come out and surprise you.
As far as what I have learned about tokens, I was modifying my deck every ten games or so and I've decided to take a more decidedly controlling direction. Here is the list I am going with for now.
Alright, so I have dropped Doomed Traveller entirely from the deck, and I moved Gideon to the main, as well as upping myself to 4 Sorins. This deck now has a much stronger mid to late game, at the expennse of a weaker early game. But since I never felt like my early game was particularly strong anyway, I don't feel like it's a big loss. Grand Abolisher out of the sideboard breaks control mirrors of course, but this deck should steamroll most aggressive and midrange decks.
I am hoping I can get in some more testing against other tokens as well as Geist aggro, but I take what I can get for now. Sadly, Magic Workstation refuses to update with Innistrad/Dark Ascension for me, so I am currently lacking that avenue of testing, but I will continue to update results I do get as I have them.
I played a weak list last Friday, and still steamrolled every opponent except Geist aggro, where i got stomped (though this had a lot more to do with my own poor mulligan decisions, I actually the matchup was close). I was foolish enough to try to run Thraben Doomsayer, but he was way too slow. Below is the list I have settled on now, and I think this is pretty solid.
So, along with the doomsayer, I also found Elspeth Tirel too slow. I find Increasing Devotion to be just such a blowout in her slot, pulling me right back into any game where I need to spend the mana for it.
Most games though, once I hit 5 mana it means I have Vault active and that card is the stone nuts. I honestly think that for all the attention given to Sorin and Lingering Souls, it's the vault that is going to make this deck competitive. Letting you win every race by massive lifegain, while at the same time giving loads of virtual card advantage by letting your swarms of tokens (usually several from a single card mind you) trade one for one with full creature cards is just insane.
The bane of my existence so far has been Sword of War and Peace. Not only does it take momentum away from me in a race, it also can't be blocked by most of my tokens. Its one of the many reasons I run the shrines that many seem to be eschewing. It's also IMO a bigger reason to side in Stony Silence than Ratchett Bomb, which I feel is something of a bogeyman against us. I mean, yeah, it sets me back a little, but particularly with a Shrine ticking up in the background, or even a single Lingering Souls in hand, you recover much faster than traditional aggro in the face of boardwipes.
Which brings me to maindeck DOJ. This is something of a local meta call, but on average, I will be facing creature decks in 4 out of 5 rounds minimum, and often all night. The very fact that I can reflood the board in no time makes Day amazing for me maindeck, and to anyone who hasn't tried it yet, I strongly recommend trying out DOJ and Shrine (neither is quite as good without the other right now).
I ditched Honor of the Pure very quickly. I don't like running too many anthems because they are the last thing I want to topdeck if the game gets stalled out, and since I am running Shrine (and thanks to swords, I am also trying to figure out how to stick in Blade Splicer again) it doesn't even pump a significant number of my tokens. Virtue and Sorin's emblem have been enough for me thus far.
The most difficult aspect of the deck has been the green splash. This is mainly so that I can flashback Ray of Revelation out of the sideboard, because I think this deck and variations in GW and UW are going to be very popular, and I think in all of those mirrors, he who has the most anthems wins, so I want to be able to maximize my control over the anthem wars. Now, having already put in some G, I decided to try singleton Grim Backwoods and Gavony Townships. Township is already well known to be good, but I doubt that given the choice, I would ever activate it over Vault. Grim Backwoods on the other hand has a lot of potential, and I can see myself dropping the township for two backwoods. I've got bodies to spare, and I likes me some cards.
Anyway, I have more Hauntings int he board because really, I just want 5 LIngering SOuls Main, so I have a Haunting in its place. I bring in the others against Delver decks, and any deck running Inkmoth Nexus as extra airborne blockers in a match where the townsfolk aren't pulling their weight. Divine Offering in the board is for further anti-sword tech, as well as random Tempered Steel decks or whatever. The Gideons are there to break aggro mirrors and part the waves in mirror type matches.
Despise is an experiment, but I am hoping to catch geists and heroes before they become a problem. And DIsmember is pretty sweet in a deck where I can often pay the black later on, but still appreciate the removal early on. If Despise proves to be lackluster, I might replace them with Tragic Slip because that card is utterly insane.
One card I have been considering with the green splash is Garruk Relentless. He's easy to cast, very powerful, and in theme. THe only thing holding me back is that I can't really make use of his creature tutoring ability right now, but if that changes, I think I will give him a whirl.
Im loving this deck, and will be following and updating in this thread as I test and play more.
The reason the captive is garbage is that if you play him turn one, then be worthwhile you have to pump him turn two, which means you didn't play a spell and he flips into his garbage side.
Waif is incredible against control decks, and decent elsewhere, while Young Wolf is destined to go down as one of the great one drops in green. Four of each has your 1 drop slot easily in hand. If you want more for 1 mana, grab some burn spells, like Gut Shot, Geistflame or Shock.
Banning fetchlands would kill Legacy as a format unless they reprinted original duals. Right now, you can get into the format with Zen fetches and picking up just one each of the duals you want. Banning the fetches would mean running playsets of duals for EVERY deck, and with availability already being a barrier to entry for a lot of people, this move would only make it worse.
Funny, my favourite thing about Legacy is when my opponent has to pick up a card I played, read it a few times and then ask "What is this?"
And how cool is a format where both of our scenarios are commonplace?
The main purpose of the PWs is to provide a stream of bodies to equip. Liliana's not alot of help there lol.
The biggest problem with the list is it's not commiting to disruption or aggression, and isn't really good enough at either as a result. Liliana would be part of a commitment to disruption probably. Really, the list was built from "I want to play X, Y and Z cards today!" not "What list will give me the biggest edge in the metagame" and is pretty bad as a result. I just provided it for reference.
3x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Instants/Sorceries – 9
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
Artifacts – 7
1x Batterskull
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Planeswalkers – 4
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland
2x Bitterblossom
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Phyrexian Crusader
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Tormod's Crypt
Nothing resembling a perfect list, I know, but I had trouble deciding what I wanted to play. This did hurt me, especially in my first two rounds, where I had trouble drawing the parts of my deck I needed for the matchup.
Round one was up against a RWU Delver deck. Game one I was flooded with land and died summarily after my first two attempts to resolve a threat were coutnered. Game two, I mulliganed poorly, kept a six card one lander and by the time I saw a second land, I was nearly dead already. Not only did I mulligan badly here, I also believe I should have sideboarded more heavily. Granted, his counterwall ensured I didnt resolve a single spell all game, but I stll think I needed to add more. Specifically, he made heavy use of Snapcaster Mage and Grim Lavamancer, so I think I should have brought in at least teh spellbomb. Likewise, Pernicious Deed should have been maindeck to begin with, let alone being sided in against a deck whose curve tops out at 3. As it was, I never saw the Phrexian Crusaders I boarded in anyway, but I do believe that if I had, I would have locked him down, as his removal (and indeed, the only removal I saw all day) consisted of Swords, Paths and Bolts. Regardless, I lost in two, but at least my opponent was someone I knew from back when I used to play, and we were firnedly, so we chatted and it was a good-spirited throttling.
Round two was against Bant. Game one I had the Thoughtseizes I had wished for in round one, two in my opneing hand, along with a Knight, and snap-kept. I drew a third Thoughtseize, and stripped Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary and Elspeth from his hand. Unfortunately, I drew only land from then on, and his Swords cleared out my Knight and he beat me down with a Rhox War Monk. Game two, I again kept a 6 card 1 land hand for fear of mulling down, this time believing that two Noble Hierarchs made it playable. Oh how wrong I was. My opponent was kind enough to Path the third Hierarch I tried to play, but he had a Knight of the Reliquary to match mine, as well as a Scavenging Ooze that ensured that he won the Reliquary wars. Kicking myself, I lost another round 0-2.
I headed into Round Three feeling a little dejected. My goal had been to at least win a couple games and not emberass myself, and it looked like I was failing at even that. But my opponent was good-natured and joking about his own winless record, so that made it easier. He was playing an Esper-coloured Painter's Stone combo deck. Game one he made a rather huge error. Having seen my hand already and knowing I had a Maelstrom Pules, he played a second Painter's Servant without Grindstone at teh ready, and then failed to draw any more action after I pulsed them. Meanwhile, my deck curved perfectly with turn one Hierarch into turn two Knight, turn three Stoneforge and the beatdown was on. Game two was much closer, and it was only a combination of Thalia and Crucible/Wasteland that allowed me to keep him from comboing off. I mulliganed more aggressively that round, going down to 5 game two, and it paid off. Mulligan decisions have been the weakest part of my game for some time, but it is finally hitting home just how to mulligan, not jsut based on my deck, but even analysing my hand for my opponent's deck.
Round Four was UW Stoneblade, most hated of matchups for me. I won in two games, both coming down to drawn-out attrition. Game one was noteworthy for being the first time I actually drew into my planeswalkers, getting both Sorin and Garruk into play. Ultimately that was how I took over what would have been a lost game, as the steady stream of lifelinking tokens from Sorin allowed me to come back and bought me the time to draw into my answers. As is my tradition though, anything that was really strong game one but not core to the deck gets boarded out, so the Sorins and Garruk came out, and more removal went in instead. Game two involved both of us keeping removal-heavy hands and spending many turns playing draw-go, then removing a creature whenever it hit the board. In the end, I had a bigger threat density in my deck than him, and that was what saw me breaking through with a Knight, who brougth out the Tower of the Magistrate that ended his ability to present a threat that could even try to outclass a 10/10 knight.
Round five was played basically for fun, as no one at our table was in contention for top 8, but we all wanted to play anyway. My opponent was playing a Necrotic Ooze combo deck, though I never saw the Ooze and isntead faced down Vengevine beatdown. Game one I was overrun, game two I got a warning for forgetting my Dark Confidant trigger (twice today! Of all cards, I should know better), but my staggered graveyard hate was enough to pull it off. I have to say I love Ravenous Trap, particularly with cards like Wasteland and Pernicious Deed that allow me to generate the free casting clause. Game three he had an explosive start, with a turn two Wild Mongrel letting him pitch Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla, playing the Rootwalla with Madness and getting the Vengevine in and swinging. He got me down to 4 before I stabilized. I was able to wasteland one land and Pulse the Mongrel, leaving him on Vengevine, Rootwalla, Quirion Ranger and Dryad Arbor, while I had a Tormod's Crypt out and at the ready. I had Sorin and Garruk in hand, and 3 land. Noble Hierarch and Stoneforge Mystic were in play. I was going to play Garruk, fight the Vengevine, Crypt and pray, until I did the math. This was the game where Sorin showed his value. I played Sorin, made a dude. He swung at me with everything, I blocked the Vengevine with the Vampire, the Ranger with the Mystic, and took two, gained one, went to 3. Next turn, play Garruk, fight the Dryad Arbor, make a vampire, chump the Vengevine and go up to 4. Another turn of chumping vampire gave me a little more life, and set Sorin up to steal his remaining board. It was the best example of how Sorin is able to help stabilize and take over games. In Legacy even more than Standard, his lifelinking tokens buy him the time to use his ultimate, which turns games around fast. The fact that he can get to his ultimate before Jace does is also significant.
Overall, I had a good time, and learned some things. 2 Sorins was definitely too many, but I really wnated to see him in play. Garruk on the other hand, I would run more of, easily going up to 2 or 3. He has so many good targets to come down and fight, and tutoring is always useful. Pernicious Deeds should have been main all day, as they came in in every single matchup. I was disappointed that I never got to see Phyrexian Crusader in play, since I really do think he can take over the game pretty quickly as well.
All in all, it's great to be playing Legacy again!
The first problem is that the best version of tokens is actually as a tap-out control deck right now. Other aggressive decks are better at aggression, while tokens arent fast enough to worry the permission decks. The deck I had the most success with was BW with a slight splash of G for sideboard purposes to flashback Ray of Revelation. The deck opens with things like Despise, spot removal, and in the best games drops a T2 Shrine of Loyal Legions. Board wipes weren't genreally an issue, in fact I ran Day of Judgment main because when 1 card can make 4+ bodies, I could recover faster than any opponent. Even Ratchett Bomb wasn't a problem because I ran enough spot removal to deal with recursion and single uses are dealt with by, as mentioned, not overextending. The key card for the deck though, is Vault of the Archangel. Everything else is support, but that card makes it work. If I hit an active vault, I would win against almost any opponent. No one can outrace me, and no one can trade with me because they will generally be losing several cards to my tokens, and i will still get the life puishing me over.
The thing is, I could never win every round. There are a couple of Achilles' heels that kill the deck on the spot. The first, and biggest, if WRR. I could beat it occasionally, but the deck hasn't got enough good answers to Inkmoth Nexus, and I would generally die to poison. Because Vault doesn't help against Nexus, it didn't matter if I was sitting at 40+ life and killed every Titan on sight. WRR's endgame trumps tokens.
The other major killers were Elesh Norn and even worse, Massacre Wurm. Elesh Norn wiped my board, then beat on me while I dug for removal. Massacre Wurm generally killed me in two turns, not only wiping my board, but burning me for 8 or so and then swinging in for the kill. What's worse, Elesh Norn is seeing more and more play as time goes on, creating more and more bad matchups.
So for now, I am putting BW tokens away, and I have a feeling that the Wolf Run matchup and the vulnerability to Elesh Norn are the reasons the pros have written off the deck for now. But those are both problems that will go away when Scars Block rotates.
As for Sorin himself, he does have other uses that people are finally starting to delve into. Esper Superfriends is an incredibly strong control deck that really emphasizes how difficult planeswalkers are to deal with en masse, and the fact that it can have both Sorin AND Elspeth out generating bodies togehter is huge. I can even see a GWB version coming along with Sorin, Elspeth and Garruk providing bodies together and taking over the board.
I have also been having some good results with a RWB Vampire deck which uses Sorin and actually gives me a good matchup against Wolf Run. No event results but I tested against WRR and in 20 games had around a 65% win percentage, which is far better than the near auto-loss I had with tokens, so I'll work with this direction for now.
Expect to see Sorin start popping up soon. His biggest virtues are the bodies and his ultimate, which will become more significant as Superfriends becomes more popular.
GSZ, Snapcaster, Natural Order, etc. These are the engines that the Cages gets in the way of. Incidentally, the Cage makes Chaos Warp a little more appealing. It is probably going to find a home in Affinity and Stax type decks, but it could also be good in a hatebear type deck.
The one I've been testing runs Garruk Relentless as its creature tutor, and runs maindeck Graffdigger's CAge because it just hoses so much of the format.
I'm just getting back into legacy, and tinkering with a junkish type list and running this little hate bear and she seems to be the real deal. Obviously Legendary hurts, but she would be ungodly without it. As it is, she shuts down Force of Will, protects you from hive mind kills, and carries a sword like a champion. Anyone else having any sucess with her?
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad FOIL
Huntmaster of the Fells
Dungeon Geists
The rest of the pack (because hoinestly, does it matter at that point?)
Round One was against a UB zombie deck. I didn't win this round as much as my opponent lost it, as he kept terribly slow hands both games and by the time he got rolling, I was already sailing through the air with an active vault. I won in 2, but then we played some more games for fun, and his deck performed the way he expected and it was much tougher.
Round Two was a mirror match, and I won in 2 again. I was pleased to see my mirror tech work as I had hoped. Rather than race anthems, the green splash strictly to flashback Ray of Revelation was far more effective. Basically, drawing one Ray was as effective as drawing two anthems in terms of the race. Gideon was also a huge trump peice in this match.
Round Three was the only round I lost, against a Wolf Run Jund list close, but not quite identical to Conley Woods' list. I lost in 2, but it was explained after game two that I could have won had I not made a slight misplay (I made an Emblem on a turn when I should have made a vampire token). Game one was a close race, but he managed to poison me out the turn before I swung for lethal. Game two, I anticipated more Ratchett Bombs so I boarded out my shrines and brought in the full set of Stony Silence. This proved key as he went turn two Rampant Growth into turn three double Sphere of the Suns, which silence shut down. Unfortunately, it only delayed the inevitable, and his Massacre Wurm was a huge blowout that caught me offguard because before tonight, I've never seen it in any deck that wasn't mine lol. Still, I think this was a winnable match for the deck, and I was outplayed as a player.
Round Four was a black red aggro deck, mostly vampires. Game One he nearly overwhelmed me, curving rapidly into two Bloodline Keepers and Olivia Voldaren, but my choice of Increasing Devotion over Elsepth Tirel meant I had enough bodies to force him to block an alpha strike and Vault of the Archangel allowed me to wipe out his board, and I rode my two remaining tokens to victory. Game two he kept a sketchy hand with no red mana, and I had boarded in a little extra spot removal out of fear of his bombs, so I was able to kill his early black drops, and he didn't see red mana until the turn before I swung for lethal.
I definitely like the more controllish approach to the deck. Maindeck Day of Judgment is just too good to ignore. I prefer the curve of Despise into Shrine of Loyal Legions into Midnight Haunting for chumping as needed into Day, and then start flooding the board. And I stand by the assertion that the most important card in this deck is Vault of the Archangel. I cannot in good conscience ever try to run less than four of these again. As soon as it is active, it takes a miracle for you to lose.
The Abolishers are in the sideboard. I really don't need them in most matchups thusfar.
As far as what I have learned about tokens, I was modifying my deck every ten games or so and I've decided to take a more decidedly controlling direction. Here is the list I am going with for now.
3x Shrine of Loyal Legions
Enchantments
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Intangible Virtue
Instants/Sorceries
3x Day of Judgment
4x Despise
2x Dismember
4x Gather the Townsfolk
2x Increasing Devotion
4x Lingering Souls
1x Midnight Haunting
4x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3x Gideon Jura
Lands
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Gavony Township
1x Grim Backwoods
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Vault of the Archangel
4x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Stony Silence
2x Divine Offering
2x Midnight Haunting
3x Ray of Revelation
4x Grand Abolisher
Alright, so I have dropped Doomed Traveller entirely from the deck, and I moved Gideon to the main, as well as upping myself to 4 Sorins. This deck now has a much stronger mid to late game, at the expennse of a weaker early game. But since I never felt like my early game was particularly strong anyway, I don't feel like it's a big loss. Grand Abolisher out of the sideboard breaks control mirrors of course, but this deck should steamroll most aggressive and midrange decks.
I am hoping I can get in some more testing against other tokens as well as Geist aggro, but I take what I can get for now. Sadly, Magic Workstation refuses to update with Innistrad/Dark Ascension for me, so I am currently lacking that avenue of testing, but I will continue to update results I do get as I have them.
4x Doomed Traveller
Artifacts
3x Shrine of Loyal Legions
Enchantments
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Intangible Virtue
Instants/Sorceries
3x Day of Judgment
4x Despise
2x Dismember
4x Gather the Townsfolk
2x Increasing Devotion
4x Lingering Souls
1x Midnight Haunting
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Gavony Township
1x Grim Backwoods
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Vault of the Archangel
1x Forest
3x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Stony Silence
3x Divine Offering
2x Midnight Haunting
3x Ray of Revelation
3x Gideon Jura
So, along with the doomsayer, I also found Elspeth Tirel too slow. I find Increasing Devotion to be just such a blowout in her slot, pulling me right back into any game where I need to spend the mana for it.
Most games though, once I hit 5 mana it means I have Vault active and that card is the stone nuts. I honestly think that for all the attention given to Sorin and Lingering Souls, it's the vault that is going to make this deck competitive. Letting you win every race by massive lifegain, while at the same time giving loads of virtual card advantage by letting your swarms of tokens (usually several from a single card mind you) trade one for one with full creature cards is just insane.
The bane of my existence so far has been Sword of War and Peace. Not only does it take momentum away from me in a race, it also can't be blocked by most of my tokens. Its one of the many reasons I run the shrines that many seem to be eschewing. It's also IMO a bigger reason to side in Stony Silence than Ratchett Bomb, which I feel is something of a bogeyman against us. I mean, yeah, it sets me back a little, but particularly with a Shrine ticking up in the background, or even a single Lingering Souls in hand, you recover much faster than traditional aggro in the face of boardwipes.
Which brings me to maindeck DOJ. This is something of a local meta call, but on average, I will be facing creature decks in 4 out of 5 rounds minimum, and often all night. The very fact that I can reflood the board in no time makes Day amazing for me maindeck, and to anyone who hasn't tried it yet, I strongly recommend trying out DOJ and Shrine (neither is quite as good without the other right now).
I ditched Honor of the Pure very quickly. I don't like running too many anthems because they are the last thing I want to topdeck if the game gets stalled out, and since I am running Shrine (and thanks to swords, I am also trying to figure out how to stick in Blade Splicer again) it doesn't even pump a significant number of my tokens. Virtue and Sorin's emblem have been enough for me thus far.
The most difficult aspect of the deck has been the green splash. This is mainly so that I can flashback Ray of Revelation out of the sideboard, because I think this deck and variations in GW and UW are going to be very popular, and I think in all of those mirrors, he who has the most anthems wins, so I want to be able to maximize my control over the anthem wars. Now, having already put in some G, I decided to try singleton Grim Backwoods and Gavony Townships. Township is already well known to be good, but I doubt that given the choice, I would ever activate it over Vault. Grim Backwoods on the other hand has a lot of potential, and I can see myself dropping the township for two backwoods. I've got bodies to spare, and I likes me some cards.
Anyway, I have more Hauntings int he board because really, I just want 5 LIngering SOuls Main, so I have a Haunting in its place. I bring in the others against Delver decks, and any deck running Inkmoth Nexus as extra airborne blockers in a match where the townsfolk aren't pulling their weight. Divine Offering in the board is for further anti-sword tech, as well as random Tempered Steel decks or whatever. The Gideons are there to break aggro mirrors and part the waves in mirror type matches.
Despise is an experiment, but I am hoping to catch geists and heroes before they become a problem. And DIsmember is pretty sweet in a deck where I can often pay the black later on, but still appreciate the removal early on. If Despise proves to be lackluster, I might replace them with Tragic Slip because that card is utterly insane.
One card I have been considering with the green splash is Garruk Relentless. He's easy to cast, very powerful, and in theme. THe only thing holding me back is that I can't really make use of his creature tutoring ability right now, but if that changes, I think I will give him a whirl.
Im loving this deck, and will be following and updating in this thread as I test and play more.
So you're going to use dismissive sarcasm rather than constructive conversation? Good luck.
Waif is incredible against control decks, and decent elsewhere, while Young Wolf is destined to go down as one of the great one drops in green. Four of each has your 1 drop slot easily in hand. If you want more for 1 mana, grab some burn spells, like Gut Shot, Geistflame or Shock.