I've still been playing this in the practice room on MODO to good effect. I've made a few changes to help it compete against some of the more common decks in the format and completely revamped the sideboard to focus on dealing with the fast and aggressive decks.
The more I play it the more I prefer Jace in this build. His fate seal ability comes up as a win condition a lot in this deck from what I've seen.
Engineered Explosives helps against Bogles and any deck that creates a lot of tokens. I still haven't seen any more Lingering Souls decks though. Liliana is still good but she's slow so one is in the sideboard now.
Rain of Tears has been good out of the sideboard in control mirrors but it's really there for Valukut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron. I moved to a second creature based win condition so there are more ways to pressure them after disrupting their mana. I still need more play time against these decks but the Wurmcoil Engine gives a fourth life gain effect against burn and Goblins. I haven't seen Boros based burn in a week but I've seen some Goblins and this version is pretty good against them post board.
Since I'm running the EE's now I put a single Steam Vents in to tick it up to three against planeswalkers and Dentention Sphere. That's been good and it allows for a couple of real artifact removal spells out of the sideboard. I suppose one could run a Hallowed Fountain and Disenchant instead but the By Forces have been good against the usual suspects - Lantern and Affinity. The decks I want them against don't put a lot of pressure on the mana base so it seem fine and is very similar to how burn runs Destructive Revelry.
The singleton Shadow of Doubt is really functioning as Spreading Seas number five and has been pulling its own weight or once. Aside from being good against Tron and decks running Gifts Ungiven it also works well with Spreading Seas. This is because it punishes decks for trying to play around Spreading Seas by holding up fetch lands.
The second Disallow hasn't been as good as the fourth Cryptic Command so that's in now. The shenanigans that occur with Snapcaster and Cryptic can just win games.
Cast Down has been fine. It doesn't hit either Thalia but those decks have plenty of other targets for it so it hasn't been an issue.
I've been seeing more decks running more basics and have been thinking about running at least a couple copies of Tectonic Edge instead of some of the Field of Ruins.
Search for Azcanta and Jace have been really good at digging for specific cards when they're needed.
Unfortunately, I've only played against a Lingering Souls deck once with this deck so I can't really answer the question definitively. In that match Liliana kept it in check and Spreading Seas cut off the white half of the card for a turn or two if I remember correctly.
If one was really worried about it they could probably hit the discard outlet with IOK or TS but I think taking a threat that's more impactful and/or harder to deal with is the better play. That's why there are five discard spells in my list. I really want to hit one turn one but I don't want to be flooded with them. I do target discard with Snapcaster on turn 3 a lot.
Jace is just another way to win the game and draw cards at the same time. I was running two but one seems like the right number. One line I've taken (when I was running two Jaces and on the play) was T1 Discard their T1 play, T2 Spreading Seas to shut off the rest of their hand, T3 Disallow a fetch land, T4 Jace to keep them off their tertiary colors while I build a dominating board position. I think that was against Abzan but that's just Magical Christmas land and isn't likely to happen again.
The thing with decks like this is even though it looks like a bunch of 1 and 2 of's their's a real redundancy of effects.
I've been playing UB Control for the week or so on MODO and have really been enjoying it. It's an archetype that's been historically good in other formats and, as far as I know, hasn't been explored a lot in Modern. I decided to create a new thread because this is a lot different than the "UB Planewalker Control" thread and the OP there just wanted some tweaks. This thread is for the development of the archetype in Modern.
There was one #2 Finish in a MODO competitive league on 2-20-18. That's not to say it's good but it is a glimmer of hope for this mostly dead archetype.
I added the Kalitas he was running to my sideboard and played some last night. They felt good against the obvious strategies.
I don't have 4x Collected Brutality and I'm not sure that's necessary but that and 4x Liliana of the Veil is brutal... especially on the wallet. I don't have all those so I didn't try his build card for card. 4x Liliana of Veil seems a bit much even when budget isn't considered because I feel like she's going to be a three mana edict a lot of the time. That seems bad but I reserve the right to be wrong.
I don't care for his main deck Spellbombs but I could see how they'd be good depending on what you're expecting. I think the deck needs the Extirpate effect against some of the fringe decks one is likely to encounter. For example, extirpating Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle really neuters the Titan/Scapeshift decks that turn up on occasion.
All that said here's my take on the deck. It's been performing well and more than one of my losses has been to misplays on my part. As is usual with this archetype it's not easy to play correctly 100% of the time. By running blue black we get serious disruption and nice little late game card advantage engine in the maindeck.
First, I just want to say dropping a Spreading Seas after looking at an opponents hand with discard can be really dirty. Sometimes this deck can just shut an opponent like Abzan out for a couple of turns that way. Those types of decks have very little use for off color mana.
Twenty three lands has felt like the right number. I started with twenty four and flooded a lot. Eight cantrips and the two Search for Azcanta help a lot. Search has been really good and I'm almost always really happy to see it. I've been running a lot of basics because I've been seeing a lot of maindeck Blood Moons on MODO.
I like Extirpate in the board because it shuts down combo combined with Thoughtseize and IOK and provides an answer other than countering every copy of pesky enchantments and artifacts we have no other answer to. It Can be used with Cryptic to answer the second copy of a resolved permanent. I like Split Second better than the Phyrexian Mana on Surgical because it can't be responded to with any of the commonly played graveyard removal. I presume there's a Morph guy that could be that's not really a thing in Modern.
Disallow has been really good for a 3 cmc Counterspell. Field of Ruin and Spreading Seas already put a lot of pressure on opposing mana bases and every now and then Disallow turns into a blue Stone Rain for fetchlands on top of them. Having them in the main versus Storm feels dirty too. Since turns one and two are spent throwing discard and two mana enchantments around the three mana hasn't been a real issue. It can be Snapped back one turn earlier than Cryptic and sometimes that's a big deal. It could answer Westvale Abbey if it can't be turned into an Island for some reason but I haven't had that issue with this particular deck.
The Geth's Verdict in the sideboard has been a bit meh but it answers Abbey and Emrukal. The Bomb in the board has been lackluster as well but it does answer artifact based decks better than most of the things we have access to in UB other than Hurkly's Recall. The Recall might be worth exploring.
I never board Liliana, the Last Hope out. Even against the control mirror she has been great for recurring Snapcaster Mage and clears opposing copies of Tiago Chan off the board. Her ultimate is a real threat but most decks just can't handle Snapcaster recursion and lots of games have been won by turning a Creeping Tarpit and a Snapcaster Mage sideways. Having her in the maindeck is also a real tilt against the various weenie decks running around Modern. I could see a situation where Lili and Geth could shut down dredge if we can maneuver into that position. I'm not sure but 3x Geth might the right number.
I could take or leave Tasigur but he turns the corner quick and provides a Jayemdae Tome effect. I activate him more in this deck than I ever did in Grixis Death's Shadow. I started playing the deck with two copies of Tasigur but cut one for the second Azcanta. I don't feel like running two of fatties just to win the game in a deck that tries to get into a position where anything could win.
Hero's Downfall has been really good for answering opposing plainswalkers while still being decent against midrange creature strategies. I leave it in the board against decks packing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
I think something narrow like Double Negative is just too cute. There are plently more rawly powerful and widely usable cards out there that also happen to be good against Jund. I would stick to those.
Most definitely. I went back and read what I wrote... sleepy rambling is a thing I guess.
You're absolutely correct on all of your points I believe. Especially about bringing in the Extirpate effects against a deck where we need to be impacting the board. Spellbomb, at least, cantrips and shrinks GOYF. Liliana's and kill spells seem to be the best choices out of the board.
Preface: I've been playing a pretty stock list of this deck for the last few weeks while getting back into Magic (again) and I haven't had a horrible time against Jund with BBE. All my games so far have been in the Practice Room on Modo because I'm learning the format but I'm winnning 99% of my matches in there now so I feel like it's time to start League play.
In the matchups I've played against Jund the early discard was key and in a couple of games I just left Bob on the board and he did the last few points of damage (this is not ideal since they run about 25 lands but it was my only out). I do run a Dreadbore for Jace and Gideon planeswalkers and that seems great against their Lili's but it hasn't come up. Unlike the Living End decks, their cascades never seem to hit anything that just ends the game on the spot (assuming you don't play into a Maelstrom Pulse) and I was able to out value them with K-Command and Snappy's. For me the biggest target for removal was Scooze. The 3/2 body on BBE seems less relevant against our board presence when compared to decks running small creatures like Delver and Young Pyromancer that can't win in combat.
I brought in Spell Bombs to help keep Goyf in check but have been on the Extirpate plan lately and don't know how such targeted grave hate would work. It'd be fun to Extirpate their BBE I guess but I haven't seen Jund since I switched SB strategies. Goyf never seemed to matter in any of the games because our Delve guys kept him in check and 4x Fatal Push. I'd be more likely to target their Scoozes.
I'm not convinced it's worth dedicating SB space for Jund BUT if BBE is really that big of a deal and Jund becomes a significant percentage of the Metagame then some non-zero number of Double Negative out of the board would be cute on the play or on the draw while not being completely dead the rest of the time. If they cascade into Abrupt Decay it's less good but at least the body isn't on the table or one could wait and do something else I guess. I like the idea of running more discard and just fighting through the BBE. If it becomes a big enough deal then I could see a pair of Double Negative out of the board being worth it to keep the Jund deck from getting back in the game but, at that point, it's probably win more. The games where I've blown them out have all involved early Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek paired with Snapcaster Mage shenanigans. Drawing them late when you need removal feels really bad so adding more may not be right either. Bringing in Collective Brutalityfor additional discard may be good because it isn't completely dead late game. Some number of Stubborn Denial seems fine to combat Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil.
Overall the matchup felt really swingy with cards lining up and a lot of back and forth going on or one side getting blown out. I haven't gotten to play it enough to try and guess a win percentage but it doesn't feel unwinnable and the games were fun as long as I wasn't getting flooded on lands. They seem to have a hard time recovering from discard spells because they live off the top of their deck unless Bob is in play and we have a lot of cantrips and digging going on. Their 25 lands mean top deck wars don't seem real scary and if I remember right I brought in Liliana, the Last Hope to grind the games out but that seems bad because BBE has haste and can come out of nowhere.
The turn 4 rewind => teachings => rewind play has always been devastating. Teachings for rewind turn 5 or 6 is fine but doesn't have the devastating tempo of leading with it on turn 4. And you want to lead with it because you may not solve both problems with the 1 card you get with teachings.
The way I see it is Cryptic is probably better as a singleton but I still prefer the tempo swing a turn 4 rewind can give so I'm running 2 for nostalgias sake and would love to run 3 but that seems to slow for this format.
I think 5 or 6 might be alright. I'm going to review my mana base and try to squeeze Thoughtseize in without signifigantly adding to the damage I deal myself. The ability to run a more painless manabase and Thoughtseize may be a good reason to cut white (but I don't want to).
That's what I was thinking regarding Angel. She's good, excellent even, in creature heavy builds but in creature light versions I'm not seeing a point. If I were to run a singleton flash creature in the board I guess it'd be Teferi but that's just based on past experiences.
@storyteller: I was thinking something similar but figured 8 discard spells would be to many dead draws late. Plus what would you run? Duress seems terrible as a 4 of in the maindeck and 4 Thoughtseize would be a lot of life loss. Probably to much life loss with fetches and duals.
Therefore I was planning:
4x IOK
2x Spell Snare
1x Thoughtseize (maybe but I'm on the fence about this one)
3x Snapcaster
From there aiming Esper Charm at their hand should be quite effective.
After Testing, I found that we just don't run enough creatures for Restoration Angel to be much more than a expensive Plumeveil. One that can attack for damage, at least. I put one in the sideboard against decks that can't deal with it. For the most part, Vendilion Clique is 100x better. It's got a Legacy power level like Snapcaster and the 1 mana is extremely relevant.
And no, the deck ain't dead. People these days just prefer to play pro-active decks, especially on MODO, which is the only place Modern is really played. MODO is notorious for being aggro-heavy and catering to double-queuing and short attention spans. Teachings or any other control archetype isn't strong enough in Modern to bring these people over. It's sort of like how in Standard Solar Flare won repeated Star City Opens, but nobody built for it because they like their creature decks better.
I'm just getting started playing Modern. I took a hiatus from magic for a couple of years and finding out about Modern was enough to get me back into it. However I'm less than impressed with the following that Teachings is getting. It's still one of my favorite decks of all time.
That said, what just can't deal with resto angel?
And what's everyone's consensus on the number of snapcasters? I'm currently running three and very rarely am I sad to see him. That's with all 4 paths and IOK's though so I'm really wanting to play him turn 3. I'm even thinking about squeezing a lair of Spell Snares or a Disfigure into the main deck to facilitate this.
I think it's a better option for land destruction than the deck in the original post but I have no intention of running it and was just throwing it out there for thought.
If you're dead set on going with this strategy I'd turn to white and run R/W for Flagstones, a full compliment of Boom//Bust, a smattering of Lightning Helixs, Wrath, and maybe some Condemns. Then just drop the green and get card advantage elsewhere.
Or umm... *cough* Wildfire Magnivore *cough* which is what I'd really do if I were going to win off of tempo and land destruction.
Something like this should be pretty cheap to build nowdays. Other than the lands and Moxen.
Basically you hope to Ponder turn one or on the draw lay Chrome Mox and bounce their land drop.
Proceed to wash rinse and repeat over the next couple of turns while burning key creatures off until you can drop a big Vore that won't die to Wildfire and/or cast Wildfire. It may actually need more lands but it's been to long since I've messed with this deck to really know for sure.
Did you get the Elephants? If not Kitchen Finks is a pretty good, and uncommon, substitute. I'd run some sort of combination of the two. Maybe wish for your singleton elephant.
I've been working with a more aggro rock build instead of a pure Doran aggro deck but if there's a reason you aren't running Eternal Witness other than just not having room for her?
A little mild thread resurrection here because it reminded me of something I brainstormed on a little a week or so ago for post rotation.
Basically U/W control but instead of Exalted's as the main win condition I was working with ol' Firemane Angel and Zur's Wierding lock which is also better against rock style decks if you can protect the graveyard. Which this version of the deck can do through counter magic. Plus with dredge probably leaving graveyard hate shouldn't be as prominent.
Here's what I've got so far (Mind you, I was working on this more for old times sake than anything else as I've still got the T2 version together for random games IRL :o).
That's just a quick copy & paste from MWS and I haven't put to much thought into the sideboard atm. Furthermore the mana base is an off the top of the head guess.
After playing a lot of games against Gruul I found out that Tendrils MD are worthless, since most of the better lists are playing like 12 creature that can't be targetted (Silhana Ledgewalker, Troll Ascetic and Giant Solifuge) and that those are MUST counter.
Damnation might be needed as a 4of MD because of those critters since most people are starting to pack Moldervine Cloack once more, because of the 8 untargettable that they can enchant...
This leads me to believe that the MU is nigh unwinnable because those creatures are MUST counter and if they resolve you need a Damnation, IMO it's even worse than before because every single one of these requires a Damnation and running 12 can create you some rule-related problems..
Hrmm... interesting analysis. I haven't been playing much T2 lately but I'll offer these ideas based on the idea that Damnation is really needed as a possible 4 of in the main. If this is truly the case multiple options are available for upping the number of effects available.
First off there's the Clutch of the Undercity tech. This doesn't really up the count but it allows the 4th Damnation to really be felt by the opponent.
Second is Plague Wind. I find this almost useless at 9 mana but it's the same effect so I figured it worth mentioning since storage lands are available alongside the Karroo's.
Third we have splashing white... not for Wrath but for the easily splashed Teferi's Moat since all of the annoying spells you mentioned are green. And other than nonflying 1/1's like Mogg Fanatic and Scorched Rusalka the real red threats are burn and Greater Gargadon. It could work as a fine 2 of for Damnation 5 and 6 but splashing much more might get really awkward.
Finally, based off your other comment about these threats being must counters, there is Flash Freeze which undercuts all but the Ledgewalker in cost (and even then it matches it but still gets undercut by Spell Snare). Unfortunately this doesn't seem very maindeckable at all unless the metagame gets really skewed and I doubt that's going to happen. So Remove Soul seems better main/overall.
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Creature (5)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (16)
1x Cast Down
4x Cryptic Command
1x Disallow
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Logic Knot
3x Opt
1x Shadow of Doubt
2x Damnation
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta Flip
4x Spreading Seas
Artifact (1)
1x Engineered Explosives
2x By Force
1x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Extirpate
2x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Rain of Tears
I've still been playing this in the practice room on MODO to good effect. I've made a few changes to help it compete against some of the more common decks in the format and completely revamped the sideboard to focus on dealing with the fast and aggressive decks.
The more I play it the more I prefer Jace in this build. His fate seal ability comes up as a win condition a lot in this deck from what I've seen.
Engineered Explosives helps against Bogles and any deck that creates a lot of tokens. I still haven't seen any more Lingering Souls decks though. Liliana is still good but she's slow so one is in the sideboard now.
Rain of Tears has been good out of the sideboard in control mirrors but it's really there for Valukut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron. I moved to a second creature based win condition so there are more ways to pressure them after disrupting their mana. I still need more play time against these decks but the Wurmcoil Engine gives a fourth life gain effect against burn and Goblins. I haven't seen Boros based burn in a week but I've seen some Goblins and this version is pretty good against them post board.
Flaying Tendrils has been an all-star against Voice of Resurgence, Etched Champion, and the aforementioned Goblin decks.
Since I'm running the EE's now I put a single Steam Vents in to tick it up to three against planeswalkers and Dentention Sphere. That's been good and it allows for a couple of real artifact removal spells out of the sideboard. I suppose one could run a Hallowed Fountain and Disenchant instead but the By Forces have been good against the usual suspects - Lantern and Affinity. The decks I want them against don't put a lot of pressure on the mana base so it seem fine and is very similar to how burn runs Destructive Revelry.
The singleton Shadow of Doubt is really functioning as Spreading Seas number five and has been pulling its own weight or once. Aside from being good against Tron and decks running Gifts Ungiven it also works well with Spreading Seas. This is because it punishes decks for trying to play around Spreading Seas by holding up fetch lands.
The second Disallow hasn't been as good as the fourth Cryptic Command so that's in now. The shenanigans that occur with Snapcaster and Cryptic can just win games.
Cast Down has been fine. It doesn't hit either Thalia but those decks have plenty of other targets for it so it hasn't been an issue.
I've been seeing more decks running more basics and have been thinking about running at least a couple copies of Tectonic Edge instead of some of the Field of Ruins.
Search for Azcanta and Jace have been really good at digging for specific cards when they're needed.
If one was really worried about it they could probably hit the discard outlet with IOK or TS but I think taking a threat that's more impactful and/or harder to deal with is the better play. That's why there are five discard spells in my list. I really want to hit one turn one but I don't want to be flooded with them. I do target discard with Snapcaster on turn 3 a lot.
Jace is just another way to win the game and draw cards at the same time. I was running two but one seems like the right number. One line I've taken (when I was running two Jaces and on the play) was T1 Discard their T1 play, T2 Spreading Seas to shut off the rest of their hand, T3 Disallow a fetch land, T4 Jace to keep them off their tertiary colors while I build a dominating board position. I think that was against Abzan but that's just Magical Christmas land and isn't likely to happen again.
The thing with decks like this is even though it looks like a bunch of 1 and 2 of's their's a real redundancy of effects.
There was one #2 Finish in a MODO competitive league on 2-20-18. That's not to say it's good but it is a glimmer of hope for this mostly dead archetype.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18642&d=316171&f=MO
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
4x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
CREATURES 4
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Cryptic Command
2x Damnation
4x Fatal Push
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Negate
2x Remand
4x Serum Visions
OTHER SPELLS 12
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Spreading Seas
4x Collective Brutality
3x Dispel
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Negate
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
I added the Kalitas he was running to my sideboard and played some last night. They felt good against the obvious strategies.
I don't have 4x Collected Brutality and I'm not sure that's necessary but that and 4x Liliana of the Veil is brutal... especially on the wallet. I don't have all those so I didn't try his build card for card. 4x Liliana of Veil seems a bit much even when budget isn't considered because I feel like she's going to be a three mana edict a lot of the time. That seems bad but I reserve the right to be wrong.
I don't care for his main deck Spellbombs but I could see how they'd be good depending on what you're expecting. I think the deck needs the Extirpate effect against some of the fringe decks one is likely to encounter. For example, extirpating Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle really neuters the Titan/Scapeshift decks that turn up on occasion.
All that said here's my take on the deck. It's been performing well and more than one of my losses has been to misplays on my part. As is usual with this archetype it's not easy to play correctly 100% of the time. By running blue black we get serious disruption and nice little late game card advantage engine in the maindeck.
3x Creeping Tarpit
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
4x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Instant and Sorceries: 24
4x Opt
3x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Disallow
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Countersquall
3x Cryptic Command
2x Damnation
2x Logic Knot
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Creatures: 4
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers: 3
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Extirpate
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Collective Brutality
1x Geth's Verdict
1x Countersquall
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Damnation
First, I just want to say dropping a Spreading Seas after looking at an opponents hand with discard can be really dirty. Sometimes this deck can just shut an opponent like Abzan out for a couple of turns that way. Those types of decks have very little use for off color mana.
Twenty three lands has felt like the right number. I started with twenty four and flooded a lot. Eight cantrips and the two Search for Azcanta help a lot. Search has been really good and I'm almost always really happy to see it. I've been running a lot of basics because I've been seeing a lot of maindeck Blood Moons on MODO.
I like Extirpate in the board because it shuts down combo combined with Thoughtseize and IOK and provides an answer other than countering every copy of pesky enchantments and artifacts we have no other answer to. It Can be used with Cryptic to answer the second copy of a resolved permanent. I like Split Second better than the Phyrexian Mana on Surgical because it can't be responded to with any of the commonly played graveyard removal. I presume there's a Morph guy that could be that's not really a thing in Modern.
Disallow has been really good for a 3 cmc Counterspell. Field of Ruin and Spreading Seas already put a lot of pressure on opposing mana bases and every now and then Disallow turns into a blue Stone Rain for fetchlands on top of them. Having them in the main versus Storm feels dirty too. Since turns one and two are spent throwing discard and two mana enchantments around the three mana hasn't been a real issue. It can be Snapped back one turn earlier than Cryptic and sometimes that's a big deal. It could answer Westvale Abbey if it can't be turned into an Island for some reason but I haven't had that issue with this particular deck.
The Geth's Verdict in the sideboard has been a bit meh but it answers Abbey and Emrukal. The Bomb in the board has been lackluster as well but it does answer artifact based decks better than most of the things we have access to in UB other than Hurkly's Recall. The Recall might be worth exploring.
I never board Liliana, the Last Hope out. Even against the control mirror she has been great for recurring Snapcaster Mage and clears opposing copies of Tiago Chan off the board. Her ultimate is a real threat but most decks just can't handle Snapcaster recursion and lots of games have been won by turning a Creeping Tarpit and a Snapcaster Mage sideways. Having her in the maindeck is also a real tilt against the various weenie decks running around Modern. I could see a situation where Lili and Geth could shut down dredge if we can maneuver into that position. I'm not sure but 3x Geth might the right number.
I could take or leave Tasigur but he turns the corner quick and provides a Jayemdae Tome effect. I activate him more in this deck than I ever did in Grixis Death's Shadow. I started playing the deck with two copies of Tasigur but cut one for the second Azcanta. I don't feel like running two of fatties just to win the game in a deck that tries to get into a position where anything could win.
Hero's Downfall has been really good for answering opposing plainswalkers while still being decent against midrange creature strategies. I leave it in the board against decks packing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Most definitely. I went back and read what I wrote... sleepy rambling is a thing I guess.
You're absolutely correct on all of your points I believe. Especially about bringing in the Extirpate effects against a deck where we need to be impacting the board. Spellbomb, at least, cantrips and shrinks GOYF. Liliana's and kill spells seem to be the best choices out of the board.
In the matchups I've played against Jund the early discard was key and in a couple of games I just left Bob on the board and he did the last few points of damage (this is not ideal since they run about 25 lands but it was my only out). I do run a Dreadbore for Jace and Gideon planeswalkers and that seems great against their Lili's but it hasn't come up. Unlike the Living End decks, their cascades never seem to hit anything that just ends the game on the spot (assuming you don't play into a Maelstrom Pulse) and I was able to out value them with K-Command and Snappy's. For me the biggest target for removal was Scooze. The 3/2 body on BBE seems less relevant against our board presence when compared to decks running small creatures like Delver and Young Pyromancer that can't win in combat.
I brought in Spell Bombs to help keep Goyf in check but have been on the Extirpate plan lately and don't know how such targeted grave hate would work. It'd be fun to Extirpate their BBE I guess but I haven't seen Jund since I switched SB strategies. Goyf never seemed to matter in any of the games because our Delve guys kept him in check and 4x Fatal Push. I'd be more likely to target their Scoozes.
I'm not convinced it's worth dedicating SB space for Jund BUT if BBE is really that big of a deal and Jund becomes a significant percentage of the Metagame then some non-zero number of Double Negative out of the board would be cute on the play or on the draw while not being completely dead the rest of the time. If they cascade into Abrupt Decay it's less good but at least the body isn't on the table or one could wait and do something else I guess. I like the idea of running more discard and just fighting through the BBE. If it becomes a big enough deal then I could see a pair of Double Negative out of the board being worth it to keep the Jund deck from getting back in the game but, at that point, it's probably win more. The games where I've blown them out have all involved early Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek paired with Snapcaster Mage shenanigans. Drawing them late when you need removal feels really bad so adding more may not be right either. Bringing in Collective Brutalityfor additional discard may be good because it isn't completely dead late game. Some number of Stubborn Denial seems fine to combat Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil.
Overall the matchup felt really swingy with cards lining up and a lot of back and forth going on or one side getting blown out. I haven't gotten to play it enough to try and guess a win percentage but it doesn't feel unwinnable and the games were fun as long as I wasn't getting flooded on lands. They seem to have a hard time recovering from discard spells because they live off the top of their deck unless Bob is in play and we have a lot of cantrips and digging going on. Their 25 lands mean top deck wars don't seem real scary and if I remember right I brought in Liliana, the Last Hope to grind the games out but that seems bad because BBE has haste and can come out of nowhere.
The way I see it is Cryptic is probably better as a singleton but I still prefer the tempo swing a turn 4 rewind can give so I'm running 2 for nostalgias sake and would love to run 3 but that seems to slow for this format.
@storyteller: I was thinking something similar but figured 8 discard spells would be to many dead draws late. Plus what would you run? Duress seems terrible as a 4 of in the maindeck and 4 Thoughtseize would be a lot of life loss. Probably to much life loss with fetches and duals.
Therefore I was planning:
4x IOK
2x Spell Snare
1x Thoughtseize (maybe but I'm on the fence about this one)
3x Snapcaster
From there aiming Esper Charm at their hand should be quite effective.
I'm just getting started playing Modern. I took a hiatus from magic for a couple of years and finding out about Modern was enough to get me back into it. However I'm less than impressed with the following that Teachings is getting. It's still one of my favorite decks of all time.
That said, what just can't deal with resto angel?
And what's everyone's consensus on the number of snapcasters? I'm currently running three and very rarely am I sad to see him. That's with all 4 paths and IOK's though so I'm really wanting to play him turn 3. I'm even thinking about squeezing a lair of Spell Snares or a Disfigure into the main deck to facilitate this.
Or umm... *cough* Wildfire Magnivore *cough* which is what I'd really do if I were going to win off of tempo and land destruction.
Something like this should be pretty cheap to build nowdays. Other than the lands and Moxen.
3 Boomerang
4 Stone Rain
4 Wildfire
4 Magnivore
4 Chrome Mox
2 Izzet Signet
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Compulsive Research
2 Pyroclasm
4 Ponder
2 Molten Rain
1 Tidings or New Braingeyser
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Cascade Bluffs
7 Island
3 Mountain
4 Cyroclasm
2 Bosieju, Who Shelters All
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Remand
2 Pyroclasm
1 Tidings or New Braingeyser
Basically you hope to Ponder turn one or on the draw lay Chrome Mox and bounce their land drop.
Proceed to wash rinse and repeat over the next couple of turns while burning key creatures off until you can drop a big Vore that won't die to Wildfire and/or cast Wildfire. It may actually need more lands but it's been to long since I've messed with this deck to really know for sure.
I've been working with a more aggro rock build instead of a pure Doran aggro deck but if there's a reason you aren't running Eternal Witness other than just not having room for her?
Basically U/W control but instead of Exalted's as the main win condition I was working with ol' Firemane Angel and Zur's Wierding lock which is also better against rock style decks if you can protect the graveyard. Which this version of the deck can do through counter magic. Plus with dredge probably leaving graveyard hate shouldn't be as prominent.
Here's what I've got so far (Mind you, I was working on this more for old times sake than anything else as I've still got the T2 version together for random games IRL :o).
1 RAV Sacred Foundry
1 FUT Nimbus Maze
2 9E Adarkar Wastes
3 SHM Mystic Gate
3 GP Steam Vents
1 10E Shivan Reef
2 OD Plains
6 PT Island
1 ON Polluted Delta
4 ON Flooded Strand
Creatures
4 RAV Firemane Angel
1 ON Exalted Angel
2 8E Zur's Weirding
3 DIS Spell Snare
4 FNM Remand
4 MR Thirst for Knowledge
3 REW Wrath of God
3 REW Condemn
2 CHK Gifts Ungiven
3 LRW Cryptic Command
1 RAV Lightning Helix
1 DIS Demonfire
3 REW Mana Leak
That's just a quick copy & paste from MWS and I haven't put to much thought into the sideboard atm. Furthermore the mana base is an off the top of the head guess.
Anyway, hopefully it'll spark some dicsussion.
Hrmm... interesting analysis. I haven't been playing much T2 lately but I'll offer these ideas based on the idea that Damnation is really needed as a possible 4 of in the main. If this is truly the case multiple options are available for upping the number of effects available.
First off there's the Clutch of the Undercity tech. This doesn't really up the count but it allows the 4th Damnation to really be felt by the opponent.
Second is Plague Wind. I find this almost useless at 9 mana but it's the same effect so I figured it worth mentioning since storage lands are available alongside the Karroo's.
Third we have splashing white... not for Wrath but for the easily splashed Teferi's Moat since all of the annoying spells you mentioned are green. And other than nonflying 1/1's like Mogg Fanatic and Scorched Rusalka the real red threats are burn and Greater Gargadon. It could work as a fine 2 of for Damnation 5 and 6 but splashing much more might get really awkward.
Finally, based off your other comment about these threats being must counters, there is Flash Freeze which undercuts all but the Ledgewalker in cost (and even then it matches it but still gets undercut by Spell Snare). Unfortunately this doesn't seem very maindeckable at all unless the metagame gets really skewed and I doubt that's going to happen. So Remove Soul seems better main/overall.