Somewhat nit-picking here, but the cards I was referring to were Garruk and Nameless Inversion. Both of which were pretty solid cards.
As far as I am concerned Garruk is a better card than Goyf in that standard season. Inversion is pretty good, but probably wouldn't have been in the deck if it wasn't for gilt-leaf, goyf, etc. It was a deck built on synergy not just a deck that went, I have 56 cards lets sling goyf in.
Did you ever play with/against GB with Goyf? It got big plenty of times, bigger than 3/4, considering the deck ran Land, Instant, Sorcery, Creature, Planeswalker, Tribal. He was a 5/6(and occasionally bigger) a lot more often than you are trying to say.
This guy dies to all burn(aka Lightning Bolt), where Goyf would not.
I am not saying this guy is not going to be relatively good, but comparing this guy to Goyf at any point in time is just a little silly. Goyf can be played in just about anything. This guy certainly will not be played in much.
Edit: Also this guy does not fill out your mana curve, because you don't want to play him Turn 1.
Half the time Goyf was in Standard there was no such thing as tribal or planeswalker. Lets face it here, the deck that played like... lianna vess and eyeblight ending was built around goyf, both of those cards are substandard and most likely would not have seen play without goyf. Horizon Canopy was basically the only way to get land in your graveyard aside from tapping a gemstone 3x or playing the bad terramorphic expanse and had no artifacts or enchantments. Goyf in standard was no more of a play in anything than Scute Mob is. Depending on what role you are playing and what deck you are playing against, dropping this turn 1 can be a prefectly acceptable play.
I completely agree that saying Goyf is close to as vunlerable as burn is ridiculous though. The only burn that could really touch goyf during it's standard playtime was char/demonfire/hellkite/psiblast, and that isn't really a big loss... Unlike Scute it does well against tarfire, incinerate, volcanic hammer, shock, and seal of fire.
I think this is just as good as Goyf in standard in the mid-range aggro in, rock, type decks that goyf was good in. Cheap threats aren't just used in control, they beat control because they can either be played in multiples the same turn or long before counters come online.
You wrathed my board? well Scute Scute <Insert Dangerous Planswalker>... wtf you gonna do now?
Normally something you sneak in under controls counter wall on turn 1 doesn't completely gg them if left alone, normally it just ends up getting in the way of some efficent blocker down the road.
Well here is the thing. Tempo only matters if you put tempo gain to use. His costing 1 is absolutely irrelevant if you play him on Turn 5 but do nothing else with the other four mana. He might as well have a 5cc in that case. In which case you might agree that he is considerably less good. etc. etc.
You don't say.. Maybe you should build a deck that uses it's mana efficently and has 3-4 CC spells that can be used effectively with Scute Mob... Obviously if you can't do anything else with your 4 mana he is essentially a 5 drop, but that is the same for Goyf.
If it isn't counter mana you leave open, maybe you drop a planeswalker and they now have to choose between burning scute or burning a jace, or a garruk, or whatever.
I'm not sure comparisons to cards like Baneslayer and Broodmate as finishers in control are justified. Problem with this card is that its terrible defensively the turn it comes into play, while Baneslayer and Broodmate could block the turn they come into play with no problems.
This outraces baneslayer if it comes down first, and is about a million times easier to protect with counterspells. Additionally they lose tempo not you if it does get removed. Not to mention you could drop 3 of these guys on the same turn and say "do you have a sweeper? no? gg" or you could double doomblade their baneslayer and drop your scute the same turn. Sure if this cost 3WW it would be worse than Baneslayer by miles, but it doesn't.
Or you could use him to suck out removal for your big mana win condition, or you could just start dropping them early in the game and dare aggro to try and race/kill you before they get big. Force them to over extend or waste their burn at your creatures instead of your face.
You could even play him in the turbo fog/luminarch ascension deck that is shaping up. His versatility is goyf-esque.
Fixed, cause I'm not sure you really get why it's really good despite kinda hinting at it in the first sentence quoted above... No offense as bro. It could cost one more and it would still be fairly potent. honestly if this card was printed in Kami block (Or even Lorwyn) it would cost 4 or 5 straight up. See where I'm going with this . . . . . . . .?
Agreed, it would still be good if it cost one more, but I think it would be not in the, "this might be better than goyf" discusion.
Whats wrong with a guy that doesn't do anything till turn 5-6, especially when there is no investment in him... Goyf in standard was usually no bigger than 2-3 on turn 3, and almost never 4/5 or bigger turn 3, there was many games he wouldn't get bigger than 4/5. Anytime after you hit 5 lands this is way way way better at attacking than goyf, only 1 turn is it more vunlerable than goyf/worse at blocking.. If it costed 1G I would agree comparisons are not warranted, but that 1 mana is a big deal. I would guess > 3/4 of the constructed worthy cards in the history of magic become completely unplayable if you add just 1 to their cost.
Either you play him in a deck that protects him from burn, or you play him in a deck that doesn't care if it gets burnt. Either way getting around the burn is pretty easy. Unless they print some serious counters you aren't trying to play this as your only win/near only win condition.
I remember a very different standard than you sir, at least towards the end. Hmm or maybe that was extended....
That was defintely extended that was make a deck and save 4 slots for goyf. And to be honest a lot of that has a lot to do with Jitte making a creature like goyf that can be played and equipped same turn way better, and the -1/-1/life gain making smaller/weenier creatures worthless.
UB Teachings was probably the dominant time spiral block deck for example.
In the world championship finals in standard it was dragonstorm vs doran rock(with goyf) one year and dragonstorm against teachings the other year that Goyf was in standard. Hardly the dominate choice.
If you look at the top round robin decks from the two years you will even see many green decks that didn't even play goyf, both slow green control with things like cloud thresher and gruul aggro with scab-clan maulers played over it.
Turn 4 Ranger of Eos
Turn 5 Wrath/Board Sweeper(if needed)
Turn 6 Scute, Scute, Counter
Thats like 95% win. The reason Goyf was good was you could do either drop him early or you could drop him mid/late AND either protect him or drop another bomb. Just the ability to go multiple Scutes in the same turn AND something else means decks without board sweepers are nearly worthless.
In my opinion the only deck playing green that might not want Scute Mob is the GRx deck trying to kill on turn 5-6... The very same type 2 deck where goyf wasn't automatic 4x.
Not quite sure it will be on the "add 4 fetches, 4 forests, 4 scute mobs" level, but it very well might. Goyf was defintely not add green to every deck good in standard.
If your on the play and hit your 5th land drop, you out race a turn 5 baneslayer angel with a turn 5 Scute Mob and not another spell all game. It might not shut down creatures the turn it comes out, but it is far better at pressuring the opponent to remove it or lose. Thats at one mana.
Basically only red removal kills Scute Mob and not Baneslayer, and it only gets 1 turn to do it. Not to mention you can protect it at any time with any of your counters not just a with 6 mana and a Glen Elendra in play. Additionally it fits in way more decks than just this UW control.
Question: What if it was a 5/5 trample for 3GG with this counters ability? By the logic many people are using it would be better because it is out of burn range, can't be chumped all day, and is a capable blocker the turn it comes down, but I think it would be worse, much much worse(but still way better than baneslayer).
This is a very strong card. I'd be astonished if this didn't find it's way into various mid-range controllish decks. It could even be a major player- but it's no Tarmo. They wouldn't be so silly as to print another beater as efficient as that, would they? (They would. And will.)
When people say.. "This is no Goyf" what do they mean? Is being better/equal to Goyf in just standard/block good enough to qualify as being the next Goyf? Does it need to be equal in standard and extended? Does it need to accomplish the same in every format?
Tarmogoyf was not the greatest creature in the history of standard/type2... Perhaps the most versatile, but I don't think it was even the most dominating beater.
This card has a real shot in my opinion to be the best beater of all time in Standard, but there is no way it will accomplish as much as Goyf did in the older formats. Does that mean it doesn't live up to the legacy of Tarmogoyf?
Cept you forget that if a goyf can sit and beat in the 4/5-5/6 stage than the Scute Mob is beating as 5/5, 9/9, 13/13, 17/17. Scute puts way way more pressure on in the late game. If it stopped at 5/5, then there would be really no case ever to make for it being better than goyf. Goyf has to spend turns getting through any chump blockers just like Scute Mob does. Cept by the time there is no chump blockers it might be only a single swing from killing you.
Scute is worse in some ways and better in others.
My arguement for Tarmogoyf would be this.
-It can't be hated out because it also uses your opponents graveyard. If an engineered plague, or similar card comes up in the format it could be very problematic. There is pretty much no card that hates goyf out very well. If no anti-Scute card comes up, I think it is better in standard.
-It is a great blocker due to the extra point of toughness. It blocks opponent goyfs, etc.
-It is still good if you get land screwed and can get you to the late game and help you recover.
-It can get good damage in turn 3-5(though isn't necessarly the best card around at doing this), this is a bigger strength in legacy/extended than it is in standard where the format doesn't have huge goyfs swinging on turn 3.
That is pretty much the only categories it has an advantage in. As far as being a must remove, pressure creating finisher, that doesn't tie up your mana Scute Mob is defintely overall better. As a late game topdeck even coming in as 1/1 it will kill your opponent faster than a 5/6 goyf, its even something a creature deck can use to beat baneslayer in a race, something which is normally impossible to do without a massive amount of creatures on the board.
I very much doubt they are going to print a geddon thats only a very slight drop off. I don't know how much experience you have with geddon, but in my opinion it is way stronger than ***... probably closer to Balance in power than *** in standard. Boom/Bust was played and it was 2 more mana.
And yes I agree with the others that this is terrible in legacy. Just about the only saving grace is that it can trade with a turn 1 lackey on the play lackey. Goyf, and dryad would be bigger by turn 5, and mongoose would defintely have threshold. The slower the format the more absurd this guy becomes.
Massive land destruction? Seriously though, I expect some level of land destruction (or some form of hate) in a land block.
Maybe land destruction, but barring it being armegeddon or wildfire power level I don't really see it having too much effect on this. Stone Rain being in the format would have next to no effect(though two stone rain varients might)
I am not sure that blue shuffling a creature into it's owners library is more off color than white having a hard counterspell with no limitations.
Except remand returned the card to their hand. How in the world can you compare return to hand and shuffle into library.
This is more like if remand was combined with memory lapse for 1(U/W)(U/W)
As far as I am concerned Garruk is a better card than Goyf in that standard season. Inversion is pretty good, but probably wouldn't have been in the deck if it wasn't for gilt-leaf, goyf, etc. It was a deck built on synergy not just a deck that went, I have 56 cards lets sling goyf in.
Half the time Goyf was in Standard there was no such thing as tribal or planeswalker. Lets face it here, the deck that played like... lianna vess and eyeblight ending was built around goyf, both of those cards are substandard and most likely would not have seen play without goyf. Horizon Canopy was basically the only way to get land in your graveyard aside from tapping a gemstone 3x or playing the bad terramorphic expanse and had no artifacts or enchantments. Goyf in standard was no more of a play in anything than Scute Mob is. Depending on what role you are playing and what deck you are playing against, dropping this turn 1 can be a prefectly acceptable play.
I completely agree that saying Goyf is close to as vunlerable as burn is ridiculous though. The only burn that could really touch goyf during it's standard playtime was char/demonfire/hellkite/psiblast, and that isn't really a big loss... Unlike Scute it does well against tarfire, incinerate, volcanic hammer, shock, and seal of fire.
You wrathed my board? well Scute Scute <Insert Dangerous Planswalker>... wtf you gonna do now?
Normally something you sneak in under controls counter wall on turn 1 doesn't completely gg them if left alone, normally it just ends up getting in the way of some efficent blocker down the road.
You don't say.. Maybe you should build a deck that uses it's mana efficently and has 3-4 CC spells that can be used effectively with Scute Mob... Obviously if you can't do anything else with your 4 mana he is essentially a 5 drop, but that is the same for Goyf.
If it isn't counter mana you leave open, maybe you drop a planeswalker and they now have to choose between burning scute or burning a jace, or a garruk, or whatever.
This outraces baneslayer if it comes down first, and is about a million times easier to protect with counterspells. Additionally they lose tempo not you if it does get removed. Not to mention you could drop 3 of these guys on the same turn and say "do you have a sweeper? no? gg" or you could double doomblade their baneslayer and drop your scute the same turn. Sure if this cost 3WW it would be worse than Baneslayer by miles, but it doesn't.
Or you could use him to suck out removal for your big mana win condition, or you could just start dropping them early in the game and dare aggro to try and race/kill you before they get big. Force them to over extend or waste their burn at your creatures instead of your face.
You could even play him in the turbo fog/luminarch ascension deck that is shaping up. His versatility is goyf-esque.
Agreed, it would still be good if it cost one more, but I think it would be not in the, "this might be better than goyf" discusion.
Either you play him in a deck that protects him from burn, or you play him in a deck that doesn't care if it gets burnt. Either way getting around the burn is pretty easy. Unless they print some serious counters you aren't trying to play this as your only win/near only win condition.
That was defintely extended that was make a deck and save 4 slots for goyf. And to be honest a lot of that has a lot to do with Jitte making a creature like goyf that can be played and equipped same turn way better, and the -1/-1/life gain making smaller/weenier creatures worthless.
UB Teachings was probably the dominant time spiral block deck for example.
In the world championship finals in standard it was dragonstorm vs doran rock(with goyf) one year and dragonstorm against teachings the other year that Goyf was in standard. Hardly the dominate choice.
If you look at the top round robin decks from the two years you will even see many green decks that didn't even play goyf, both slow green control with things like cloud thresher and gruul aggro with scab-clan maulers played over it.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/worlds06/stdecks
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/worlds07/standarddecks
This guy defintely should be better in standard than Goyf, imo.
Turn 5 Wrath/Board Sweeper(if needed)
Turn 6 Scute, Scute, Counter
Thats like 95% win. The reason Goyf was good was you could do either drop him early or you could drop him mid/late AND either protect him or drop another bomb. Just the ability to go multiple Scutes in the same turn AND something else means decks without board sweepers are nearly worthless.
In my opinion the only deck playing green that might not want Scute Mob is the GRx deck trying to kill on turn 5-6... The very same type 2 deck where goyf wasn't automatic 4x.
Not quite sure it will be on the "add 4 fetches, 4 forests, 4 scute mobs" level, but it very well might. Goyf was defintely not add green to every deck good in standard.
Basically only red removal kills Scute Mob and not Baneslayer, and it only gets 1 turn to do it. Not to mention you can protect it at any time with any of your counters not just a with 6 mana and a Glen Elendra in play. Additionally it fits in way more decks than just this UW control.
Question: What if it was a 5/5 trample for 3GG with this counters ability? By the logic many people are using it would be better because it is out of burn range, can't be chumped all day, and is a capable blocker the turn it comes down, but I think it would be worse, much much worse(but still way better than baneslayer).
When people say.. "This is no Goyf" what do they mean? Is being better/equal to Goyf in just standard/block good enough to qualify as being the next Goyf? Does it need to be equal in standard and extended? Does it need to accomplish the same in every format?
Tarmogoyf was not the greatest creature in the history of standard/type2... Perhaps the most versatile, but I don't think it was even the most dominating beater.
This card has a real shot in my opinion to be the best beater of all time in Standard, but there is no way it will accomplish as much as Goyf did in the older formats. Does that mean it doesn't live up to the legacy of Tarmogoyf?
Scute is worse in some ways and better in others.
My arguement for Tarmogoyf would be this.
-It can't be hated out because it also uses your opponents graveyard. If an engineered plague, or similar card comes up in the format it could be very problematic. There is pretty much no card that hates goyf out very well. If no anti-Scute card comes up, I think it is better in standard.
-It is a great blocker due to the extra point of toughness. It blocks opponent goyfs, etc.
-It is still good if you get land screwed and can get you to the late game and help you recover.
-It can get good damage in turn 3-5(though isn't necessarly the best card around at doing this), this is a bigger strength in legacy/extended than it is in standard where the format doesn't have huge goyfs swinging on turn 3.
That is pretty much the only categories it has an advantage in. As far as being a must remove, pressure creating finisher, that doesn't tie up your mana Scute Mob is defintely overall better. As a late game topdeck even coming in as 1/1 it will kill your opponent faster than a 5/6 goyf, its even something a creature deck can use to beat baneslayer in a race, something which is normally impossible to do without a massive amount of creatures on the board.
I very much doubt they are going to print a geddon thats only a very slight drop off. I don't know how much experience you have with geddon, but in my opinion it is way stronger than ***... probably closer to Balance in power than *** in standard. Boom/Bust was played and it was 2 more mana.
And yes I agree with the others that this is terrible in legacy. Just about the only saving grace is that it can trade with a turn 1 lackey on the play lackey. Goyf, and dryad would be bigger by turn 5, and mongoose would defintely have threshold. The slower the format the more absurd this guy becomes.
Maybe land destruction, but barring it being armegeddon or wildfire power level I don't really see it having too much effect on this. Stone Rain being in the format would have next to no effect(though two stone rain varients might)