MTG Salvation

Note he said he only wants Instants/Sorceries.

Here are all of mono Red's options:
Weak Options
Act of Treason/Mark of Mutiny/Threaten/Traitorous Blood - Vanilla Threatens or minor boost.
Harness by Force - Only if you have insane mana.
Unwilling Recruit - Only with alot of mana. Not as good as Harness in most cases I would think.
Blind with Anger/Temporary Insanity - Instant but worse than Ray of Command.
Lose Calm/Portent of Betrayal/Traitorous Instinct - Meh 4 mana Threatens with minor boost.
Twist Allegiance - 7cmc sorcery Reins of Power... Sad.

Stronger Options
Act of Aggression - 5cmc but 2 phyrexian. Instant Speed.
Word of Seizing - 5cmc but Split Second and gets permanents.
Mass Mutiny - Mini Insurrection.
Mob Rule - Split Inserrection.

So no, Red actually has very few options better than Ray of Command...

*Shrug* I was just providing the blue options, someone else can provide the red.
Also Ray is at least Instant speed, most of Red is Sorcery. But yes Ray is not on the power level of Reins or even Will.
Given you have only 2 spaces more, yeah Ray isn't going to be picked.

Reins of Power is the Best Threaten IMO. Other Blue options include: Domineering Will and Ray of Command.

I let it go until I was responded to directly. I have no illusions anything will actually be done about this so don't worry about that.
And no, if you bothered to look into this at all, I personally play on MTGO which doesn't use Partial Paris or free mulligans, it uses standard mulligans.
So thanks for your alligations of being "toxic, netdecking, mulligan abusers" I appreciate the insight you added to the discussion.

Quote from MRHblue »

And yet all people that want it banned talk about is T1/T2 mega plays. You can't just Magic-Christmas-Land people not playing it T1 because its 'the better play'. Either its ruining games T1 or that's a bad play, you dont get both sides.

Can it ruin games on T1? Yes. Can playing it T1 be a bad play in some instances? Yes. There is nothing "either/or" about it.
I'm not sure you're even making an argument here rather than just spouting rhetoric. What do you even mean "Magic-Christmas-Land" here?
No one has said it's always played T1. T1 "Mega Plays" (eg chaining mana rocks T1) are just an example of how broken it can be. That doesn't make a T2 or T3 Sol Ring balanced...
If you have no use for the mana T1 (or the next turn/find a proper point for it in your spell sequencing in the coming turns) then you don't have to play it then.
It produces more mana that it takes to cast, you can play it T2 if all you need is 3 mana that turn for example. If you need 5 mana for your next big spell then you ensure it's in play on turn 2, ect...
Heck Sol Ring at least costs 1 which can mean having to play it in advance on some occasions. Mana Crypt costs zero so it is even less common to play it T1 if you can't abuse it right away.
This is fairly simple logic so I don't see how you can fail to grasp this. I mean really, it's "Magic-Christmas-Land" now to play spells intelligently/sequentially in relation to your mana needs/hand?

Quote from DrewReaLee »

Lazy in comparison to the allied colored manlands. I hope there's 1 or 2 enemy manlands that can achieve this level and aren't just relevant color mechanics stapled onto duals.

Uh what?? W/G 3/4 reach, W/U 4/4 flying/vigilance, U/B 3/2 unblockable, R/B 2/2 fire breathing/pump... All just relevant color mechanics stapled to duals.
The only one that wasn't as basic was Raging Ravine as it had a growth mechanic that isn't seen quite as often.

As it stands the U/G 3/3 hexproof and W/B 2/3 lifelink lands shown so far are pretty much what the allied lands were...
The only difference (maybe) are the p/t numbers being a bit smaller but even then I can't really fault them.
The W/B land is cheapish and lifelink makes it hard for weenie rush/burn to fight against it while the hexproof on U/G makes it great in control mirrors.

So no I don't agree that these are more "lazy" than the originals. If you want to call them lazy then they are just as lazy as the originals were (for the most part).

Quote from CadaverousBl00m »

Typical Ambush Leader, then... shows up late, takes all the glory... no wonder he's Legendary...

Rather than showing up late, more like jumps the gun a bit.

The fact that it triggers on all ally cards entering play is why it doesn't draw you the cards.
If Ringleader drew you cards every time a goblin entered play instead of just once it would be insane.
Sadly that results in a much weaker effect but it's inevitable that it would be that way.

Quote from TwinSais »

a worse domri rade is considered broken now?

Domri is once a turn max, on an arguably more fragile body and doesn't synergize with itself (yes this is legendary but extra copies potentially have value).
This is on a 3/4 haste body that triggers every time an ally (including itself) is played. It would be fairly trivial to chain cantrip through a deck with enough 1/2 mana ally cards if it was scry, reveal like you want.

I don't see any special reason why you couldn't do this and leave it at 7 points. The points simply limit the number of vintage restricted cards you can run, deck size has nothing to do with it.

There might be issues that you'll need to consider as you go but that's par for the course with any new format. It's worth a try if you're interested anyway.

No, you don't lose ramp wars with Kozilek. The deck is made up almost entirely of mana rocks...
And yes I do run Vandalblast and the like where available (ie Mono-Black or Blue have quite a few less options in that regard, then again you get to steal their sol ring so...).
Anyway, if you read my posts I actually use Sol Ring myself extensively. I don't especially want to but I also don't want to be the only person not running it. Use the broken stuff while you can and such.
Heck banning Sol Ring (and Mana Crypt, ect...) would massively weaken a number of my own decks (again, Kozilek anyone? Heavy artifact Daretti, ect...).

I think Sol Ring not being as visible as it is is why there is less outrage over the card than there should be. As you said people are looking at the end result and not the support cards that get them there. The fact that you are hearing stories about a support card ruining games IMO is a bigger indication than anything else. And yeah, "only" 72% (and that just means many decks are not built based on precons *shrug*). Mana Crypt is even more ridiculous but it's surely got a lower % of use, that doesn't make it less ban worthy.

Quote from bobthefunny »

Could a player show up at my shop and ruin my games with sol ring to "prove me wrong?" I'm sure you could, and make a strong case towards the card's power. But in that situation I think the greater issue is with the player than the card, and I'm certain that player could do the exact same thing without the sol ring.

They would have a much harder time going T1 Greaves into T2 Krenko without Sol Ring (or Mana Crypt). So not the exact same, no.

Quote from Slarg232 »

What colors of decks do you run in EDH?

I've run every color at one point or another (including colorless Kozilek, mixes, and 5 color). I tend to enjoy blue, green, or black decks the most but I've enjoyed white and red on occasion.

Much like Mana Crypt you don't have to play Sol Ring right away (and in fact it's often incorrect to do so), it's entirely reasonable to wait to play it until you see a need for it (or just run low cost cards to go with it).
T1,P1: Land, Sol Ring, Signet.
T1,P2: Land, Vandalblast (Sol Ring).
Still leaves you ahead despite your opponent immediately answering it.

Also the fact that you're requiring that they answer it that turn is in itself a sign. Say for the sake of argument that they don't have a 1 mana artifact destruction spell in hand (sacrilege I know but crazy stuff happens sometimes). If you get to untap you're likely casting a 4 mana spell (like say Skyshroud or Hedron Archieve) and are now even further ahead. Now them drawing their Vandalblast, even just a turn later, isn't nearly as good.

You can't "kill sol ring in transit", not even with Krosan Grip (you'd need to have Null Rod or Revoker already in play to stop it).
You get more mana out of it the turn you play it than you put into it. At best killing it when it comes down simply lessens the advantage.
I have nothing polite to say about the "other players killing you" aspect. It's never been an argument I have had respect for.
So no the Starcraft analogy is not "exactly like" the card we are discussing (and never was)... That's not your fault though as it wasn't a good analogy to begin with.

Quote from bobthefunny »

Where exactly do you draw the line? Technically Burgeoning can ramp you more, faster, but costs more cards, but again, this is easily fixed. Exploration on the other side ramps you less on t1, but equalizes on turn 2, but gives you available mana t1 and t2, and allows it to be colored. Again, more cards though. What about the lesser moxen? More cards used, but colored available and a better cost-effect ratio (mana wise), each giving you a total of 2 mana t1 as well, but colored, again.

Burgeoning requires that you have lands in hand to play and can be controlled to a degree by other players. It's also an enchantment and has no immediate impact the turn you play it at all. It's still very powerful in the right situation but that situation is a heck of alot more limited than Sol Ring's. Exploration has many of the same drawbacks as Burgeoning though at least it's proactive to differentiate it. As for the lesser mox, I talked about them like two pages back but the highlights include heavy restrictions are indeed restricting. None of those cards are anywhere near as powerful as sol ring nor are they played in most decks (note I said most, some decks do indeed use them). Sol Ring is however run in 99% of decks for a reason...

Quote from bobthefunny »

What is the value of removing Sol Ring, versus the value of keeping it? The value of removing it would be to reduce the explosive competitive starts, such as the one described. But, how much fun does that save vs how much interest having sol ring gives to other players. How does that balance vs. the t2 hero of bladehold plays/stories told, and the excitement it generates, in an innocuous manner? The measure of this would be directly measured in the playerbase of the format.

I have never hear a "Wow Sol Ring was such a fun card..." or "Dude, remember that time I use Sol Ring and..." "Yeah man it was great!" at all. I have heard many a "Yeah, Bob had a turn 1 Sol Ring and spammed his hand to the board so that game was a wash" or "99 slots other than you Commander? Might as well say you have 98 slots since Sol Ring is a gimme." Might just be me though.

I'm not aware of that errata (it's certainly not on gatherer) and last I checked MTGO still has it active at 30hp.
I can't say what any of the other video Game versions have (Duel of the Planeswalkers, ect...).