The goal isn't to fuel them early, but to have options late game off of Surveil and Lich. Regarding Muldrotha, I see what you're saying. It's just having access to everything in your graveyard once again is nice. As is, still not sure on it being in the deck
Even in SCG's VS Series Brad Nelson was talking about siding it out most of the time so he was questioning its relevance as a maindeck choice
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be trying a heavy control deck in this rotation. In the past, we had payoffs like The Scarab God or Torrential Gearhulk to incentivize putting cards into the graveyard, but right now the only "reanimate" card that would feel appropriate in a heavy spell deck would be Mission Briefing, and I don't like it at all. Surveil feeds Undergrowth cards, but it doesn't happen the other way around. I feel for these colors (or Golgari), Undergrowth should be your main payoff, with Surveil as support.
That being said, I'll be trying a heavily creature-focused build first draft:
This is what I'm currently testing on Arena. So far, I like it, especially Underealm Lich with Notion Rain. However, it still feels a bit clunky. Not sure on Muldrotha, but it turns GY into a second hand, which is why it's there. Thinking about Enhanced Surveillance as a way to help prevent us from decking ourselves either through Lich or through repeat surveil triggers. Thoughts?
I'm sorry, and I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I've never liked Muldrotha. For a 6 CMC, it does nothing on ETB except maybe fetch you a land, and has no self protection. Namely any 6 CMC you can think of can do something better (Vraska, Relic Seeker, Carnage Tyrant). Question about your list tho, how are you feeding your Lazavs and Muldrothas without a dedicated early game mill engine?
Ok- fixed.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
I'm loving the new cards.
Here's a Sultai control build I arrived at, based on some things others have posted.
Not tested, but I think it should be a good starting point :
GreenTea83's Deck
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Planeswalkers (4):
3x Vraska, Relic Seeker
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
Pretend you can play infinite rainbow lands, what creature curve would you play? The Merfolk Branchwalker + Jadelight Ranger + bombs core worked well before. I'm actually having the opposite problem you are -- Sultai has a ton of excellent spells and if you don't mind being heavier on green, can shore up the early game with those two + Brontodon, but I don't know what all of this is building up to. I'm a big buyer of Doom Whisperer, but if the next best card in the 4+ cc category is Nightveil Predator, I don't think I'm in.
Maybe it's planeswalkers? I've been dying to use Karn, Tezzeret and Treasure Map together, and it wouldn't be hard to slot in something like Chromatic Lantern to get Karn enough artifacts to play with.
Whatever it is, I think it needs to be something:
(a) threatening
(b) sidesteps removal or trades positively with it
Whisperer lets you convert life into filtering at a nice rate so you're not completely down on cards, and beats the hell out of the enemy if it isn't removed immediately, so I like that. The planeswalkers get some value in the face of removal. Once we're in the realm of Thief of Sanity (dangerous if unchecked, but has to connect before it does anything) or the Predator (just not threatening enough for its mana cost; nice set of keywords, good rate overall, but the rate is tied up in things that don't generate value or put a real clock on the enemy), I'm not liking it so much...
Wrong colors obviously but Rekindling Phoenix and Nicol Bolas, the Ravager look like great 4cc creatures to play right now. Is there anything comparable in Sultai?
You could use the 4 mana slot for your spot removal. I guess if you're really desperate, Nullhide Ferox is an option.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect [Fungal Infection] to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
I understand what you're saying and agree that Fungal Infection isn't for every situation. Most of my stats are from MTG Goldfish. If you see some recent leagues the card covers 30-50% of the ten most popular creatures across a few decks in some manner. It likely needs testing, but is probably worth consideration. I think also that taxing an opponent's removal is good if this card catches it; we may be removing a creature outright with one spell, and if they spend a second spell against the token then it becomes a clean 2-for-1. If a combined -1/-1 effect and blocker also draws removal with the creature surviving after the fact then it is still a 1-for-1. In a deck that aims to pull ahead on resources this may be enough. Again, it needs testing.
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
Seeing how people regard Censor feels correct. I wasn't sure how to evaluate it. If the opponent keeps their mana accelerator on board we are likely behind.
One sideboard card I forgot about potentially is Lyra Dawnbringer. If the red and other aggro match-ups are worrisome, then they will have a hard time dealing with this. The only line I could think of is a double damage based removal spell or nightmare scenario Glorybringer exert into Chandra, Torch of Defiance tick down. Ixalan's Binding also seems strong against it, but it is a spell that doesn't develop the aggro player's board. Seems worth considering, especially if we can keep permission to protect it.
Yeah, looks like a lot of people are sold on this card, according to the speculative pricing
How do people feel about Blink of an Eye? Feels weak to me, and many creatures have great ETB effects, but it answers most permanents for a turn and often draws us a card so that we may deal with the threat later. Also rare lines where you can save The Scarab God from exile and re-buying Torrential Gearhulk similar to Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage. With Consign // Oblivion seeing some play as a one-of, perhaps there is room?
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
Yeah, and I have that problem pretty much every rotation, trying to go into 2 different directions. Maybe it's as easy as going all out on the Torrential Gearhulk and instants, maybe keeping only the Ravenous Chupacabras and The Scarab Gods for creatures?
That decklist looks interesting, but I'm missing a couple cards from there to attempt it atm. I've laso had more playtime with the reactive version, so that's probably what I'll be streamlining for my events.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
I'm actually thinking of cutting 1 Memorial to Folly or Memorial to Genius, I don't think my tapland count is optimal atm. Might put the 2nd Field of Ruin back in, just scared of situations where I can't cast the 2c efficiently.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
Depends on how much you want the cycling I guess? To me, Syncopate is just better in nearly every situation, and it's what I'll be rolling with.
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
I'm going Esper, so far, I will have will have max 3 T1 black sources. I'll also have Settle The Wreckage to clean up bad board states. I am not going to be the guy who loses because his opponent won the die roll and had T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 Steel Leaf Champion or Jadelight Ranger, and hit twice. If I was UB, maybe, but I also don't like having to play several Evolving Wilds to keep my Fatal Pushes "on".
I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
Sideboard depends on the meta obviously, but we get a huge choice of cards. I personally think something like Fungal Infection could be good against all the creature decks with x/1s in them and the surge of Llanowar Elves coming. Fumigate could also be SB instead of main to hedge against other control decks and crush game 2 against creature decks.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
I generally agree, but if staying UB, I feel like there needs to be at least 1 "hard" sweeper in your 75. I refuse to lose to T6 (now maybe T4 or 5) Carnage Tyrant. Commit alone isn't enough of a safety net for me.
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
Cast Down - Call me crazy, but I think it replaces Fatal Push before Moment Of Craving. I know, I know, hear me out...
1. It covers like 90 to 95% of what Fatal Push covers, but -2/-2 kills some things that Fatal Push doesn't.
2. I expect Goblins to become the mono red deck of choice, and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, the biggest hole in the Cast Down plan, should see less play.
3. We still need the life gain against aggro. Removal gaining life is one of UB's biggest advantages right now.
4. It's almost never a bad top deck, unlike Fatal Push. No need for Revolt. Unless Legend.dec becomes a thing, Cast Down fails way less.
I can agree with that, but you're neglecting the mana cost. A single black allows you to play more fluidly, and if you're worried about G1, a decent amount of Vraska's Contempt should get you through it.
Phyrexian Scriptures - The downside on this is probably better than Bontu's Last Reckoning. Letting things you need to kill badly (Carnage Tyrant) live a turn is very dangerous. Also opens you up to Heroic Intervention even more since they get time to prepare, though you will have mana to counter it. It also fails bad against Brontodon and Naturalize. We'll see. I plan on doing Esper (Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria and Settle The Wreckage, along with really good aggro hate), but if I go back to UB, I'll probably at least give it a chance. Also, a nonbo with The Scarab God.
If you're in trouble, like, real trouble, you'll need to tap out for this. That leaves you with no counter for the next turn and potential to blow out your saga and lose you the game. Personally, I'm steering clear of board wipes until I see a decent enough BG tokens deck running around. And have we really forgotten we have Yahenni's Expertise for those situations anyways? I feel the card fits better in a creature based midrange deck. Hell, it's great with Walking Ballista for BGx Counters.
The Esper list is very close to where I can see control decks going. Maybe 1-2 Urza's Ruinous Blast as sweepers...?
There's really no reason tho! No need to force use Blast when you have access to Settle the Wreckage or Fumigate.
I don't know what is the correct amount of lands and sources, but I just wanted to sort my thoughts out. I really like having at least 2 Field of Ruin to combat enemy utility lands, especially potential Memorial to Genius and definitely Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin, and fixes your colours a bit. Don't know the math on it, but it's probably good as an include.
I think it'll just be a matter of personal preference or how the meta shapes up. I will stay on two colors until I see a big resurgence of go-wide decks. In the current meta, board wipes are rarely necessary G1.
For me, Phyrexian Scriptures seems to be the certain replacement for Bontu's Last Reckoning, especially based on the idea that Torrysan mentions above - Reckoning is better dropped on 5+, which would be when Scriptures would go off... Of course, the list of cards below is UB-centric. It could be that Esper may become feasible, splashing for Urza's Ruinous Blast, Teferi, etc.
My only problem with that card is that it still leaves alone some true staple cards in the format, Scrapheap Scrounger and Walking Ballista. Granted you can still take care of them with other cards, but I'd like my 5 mana wipe to actually wipe. Also, unless post SB, the first ability is pretty much dead in most cases.
Syncopate - useful scaleable counter spell, that exiles too. Likely a certain inclusion as it can deal with Scarab God and eternalize/embalm creatures.
Unwind - a "free" Negate, but costs one more to start with. Possible one-of?
It's a great time to be control with these 2 prints. I don't think we've had such counter variety since Ojutai Control, so I'll definitely include a number of both in my lists.
Divination - A reprint that has been often used in control decks. May not fit in a reactive deck, but could be good for tap-out.
Blink of an Eye - may not replace Commit // Memory, but is could be an option with kicker.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how much of a spot vanilla 2-cost bounce spells have in the current meta... Besides, Commit can deal with Carnage Tyrant, which this one cannot.
Precognition Field - most likely jank, but tempting to try. Doesn't work well with Search, but in the late game allows filtering etc.
Could see uses for it, but the mana cost is steeeeeep. You'd sell me if it had flash, but that would probably bust it.
Overall, I think the Tezzeret variant gets more out of blue than we do, but those counters are more than enough.
Cast Down - this could likely going to replace Moment of Craving in the main, as it's a guaranteed kill (against nonlegendaries). Means we can save Contempt for the key cards like Hazoret and TSG. Potentially even a 3-4-of, and a reduction on Essence Scatter? Depends on how legend heavy decks become.
Definitely down for this one. Much more versatility and Fatal Push takes care of stuff like Kari Zev, Skyship Raider. Only worried about the life gain loss vs aggressive matchups, but we just move Moment of Craving to the SB then.
Dark Bargain - possible... Sees one more than Hieroglyphic Illumination, although the cycling is nice early.
Unfortunately, I'm a sucker for Read the Bones style cards. I'll probably split 2 and 2.
Demonlord Belzenlok - a one-of top end?
I really like this card. I'd prefer having it in the yard every time tho, since it's kind of a win-more card and casting it for 6 on curve doesn't seem viable to me. I'm already struggling with including Tetzimoc, Primal Death as another bomb, so we'll see if this guy makes the cut.
Josu Vess, Lich Knight - a one-of top end?
Honestly think it's meant for mono black: at least in my shell, with my heavier lean on reanimation, I'll pass on this card.
Rite of Belzenlok - possibly a sideboard card to be used as a finisher in control mirrors?
Why not for aggro too? it gives you crappy blockers that they can't really interact with efficiently, buys you time and lands a threat. Doesn't count as legendary either, right? so in theory, you could just sideboard a bunch in and chain them and hit him with flyers. Vehicles risks losing their important ships and Hazoret has problems interacting with flyers if you play it right.
Rona, Disciple of Gix - again, probably jank, but could be interesting connected with Precognition Field.
Agreed, probably won't be touching that.
Karn, Scion of Urza - Could he be worth it solely for card advantage? It's not that likely to get a strong -2. Of course, once you've stabilised, you only need 3-4 turns to churn out a huge amount of damage from the tokens (assuming he's been around +1ing for a while).
Ehhh, I think I'll pass on it too. The mana cost is really nice for the curve, but the borderline useless -2 makes me think twice.
Memorial to Genius - another draw "spell" that is easier on the mana base than Arch of Orazca, although Arch is reusable.
Zhalfirin Void - harkens back to the Theros Temples, but doesn't CIPT, and is colorless.
Memorial to Folly - return a Gearhulk or a Scarab God? Seems ok...
Like all of them except for the colorless one. What would we sub out for them tho, Evolving Wilds?
EDIT: I'll probably be starting with something similar to this:
Only thing that worries me is no real main deck response to Tyrant and really bad G1s in the mirror. But honestly, I don't expect to see it that much, so I'll try death dino first; if it blows, I'll just cut 1 death dino and 1 Dark Bargain for the 2 good ol' Doomfall.
Congrats on the finals placing. Like you, I've also been underwhelmed with Lost Legacy. Not sure what there is currently that could work. I was just thinking of adding another Duress or bounce spell.
Thanks! I still feel bad about it tho, since I just can't help myself and stop being patient and reactive when I see my opponent draw no lands for 3 turns.
I think the problem with Lost Legacy is not that there's no targets, it's that there's too many and you can't really tap out expecting to grab something really, really good. We're not in Aetherworks Marvel // Saheeli Rai territory anymore, where a well planted Legacy could pretty much dismantle the deck. I think we need to minimize sorcery speed cards in general, and just let Doomfall deal with Carnage Tyrant, Approach of the Second Sun, etc.
I'm interested in your creature/PW mix. I'd been running a list with 3 Hostage Takers and 2 Lilis for a while, but then went back to the "traditional" God/Hulk only route. Do you think that your list gets more of an advantage? You've made me want to try running the list with some number of Gontis in the main just for hilarity...
I'm pretty happy with the ratios there. The selling point for me was the printing of Ravenous Chupacabra, which to me justifies having Liliana in the deck at all. She turns all of your creatures into flashback gods, and can pretty much land a threat and get rid of one on the same turn with the right combination of cards. What's even better, her reanimates don't exile when they die leading to fancy loops with The Scarab God and awesome synergy in the form of zombie production. I'd say it's still a matter of choice, tho.
I'm thinking of trying for 2 Tetzimoc, Primal Death (in the sideboard most likely), for grindy stuff like BG Snake and take out Bontu's Last Reckoning. That card lost me my two final games (half the card, half my idiocy I guess) and it's too much of a gamble for me to get attached to it. I get that you're supposed to stall and land it on land drop 5+, but I'd still like more reactive options.
Final note on Hostage Taker: I don't really enjoy removal that can bite you in the ass, I like my creatures doing stuff on ETB and then not worrying about them dying later. Even if you save 7 mana to rock Hostage and counter, she's still open next turn and you're tapped out, which loses you a creature and leaves them right where they started.
Managed to go 6-2 for the night, blowing the finals to really poor decision making on my part and inexperience with relatively new cards
Not sure I can list the matchups in order, but I'll try. As you can see by the results, the deck did pretty well VS a nice assortment of decks.
Match 1: Mono Red Aggro 2-1
Drew pretty good both games, but he was able to race me on G2. G1 was a complete overkill, Fataling all his little aggro creatures and countering Hazoret and the final Khari Zev he needed, stabilized with Vraska's on his Khenras. G3 he drew too many uncolored lands to be a threat and closed the game with Scarab.
Match 2: Naya Dinos 2-0
Pretty straightforward. Let the small dudes hit me and saved the counters for the real deal. The variety in the removal suite also allowed for some really nice curve decisions, granted that won't always happen. G2 he kept a questionable hand with 3 tribal lands and lost game himself.
Match 3: BW Vampires 2-0
G1 was a pretty cool win, went down to 2 life and slowly climbed back up. Had real issues with his token spells early, and by the time I could close the game out I had 4 cards left in my library. G2, after I streamlined my removal he couldn't get enough aggro up to be a danger: overcommited with his lords and I blew them all up with Bontu's, then stabilized with lifegain.
Match 4: BR Vehicles 1-2
Tough MU, as described above. Interacting with his artifacts on my main deck package was pretty hard, so I lost G1 fast. G2 I got the sideboard I needed and came back, but G3 he landed Hook of Condemnation and I lost too much fuel.
off to Top 8!
Match 5: Cycling 2-0
Hadn't fought against the deck, but it went more or less as expected. G1 he killed himself during his combo, G2 I surprised him with some bold moves, such as tapping out for my Scarab God assuming he boarded Negates in. He tried to hurry up and resolved an Approach, but he ran out of draw and I prevented his combo from coming online, so he couldn't cast the second one. Killed him 2 turns after he played Approach.
Match 6: Mardu Vehicles 2-0
Pretty much same issues and caveats as the other Vehicles match, but his deck was a little less consistent.
Match 7: Sultai Energy 1-2
No one to blame this on but me. I was ahead 1 game, and underestimated his ability to put pressure back on with just 2 small creatures. I also wasn't familiar with Hadana's Climb. I casted some pretty crappy Bontu's, and it lost me both games.
Closing Thoughts:
I think the deck's shortcomings can be attributed to my lack of practice with the deck and inexperience with the Rivals cards of enemy decks. The games I lost felt fair, and could've been won if I played my lines a little differently and more conservatively.
Essence Extraction feels a little awkward, and I think the main is too heavy on creature hate as is. Most of the other cards do the same job anyways, so I think I'll put in one more Disallow and Illumination for them.
I'm feeling a little underwhelmed with Legacy and Bontu's. I'd like to try out Yahenni's, but I want to know about other people's experiences with it in the current format. Also, just wondering: has anyone tried Tetzimoc, Primal Death in something other than Commander with positive results?
I'd appreciate any feedback or comments on my list, and the overall direction of the archetype. Thanks in advance!
Even in SCG's VS Series Brad Nelson was talking about siding it out most of the time so he was questioning its relevance as a maindeck choice
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be trying a heavy control deck in this rotation. In the past, we had payoffs like The Scarab God or Torrential Gearhulk to incentivize putting cards into the graveyard, but right now the only "reanimate" card that would feel appropriate in a heavy spell deck would be Mission Briefing, and I don't like it at all. Surveil feeds Undergrowth cards, but it doesn't happen the other way around. I feel for these colors (or Golgari), Undergrowth should be your main payoff, with Surveil as support.
That being said, I'll be trying a heavily creature-focused build first draft:
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Glowspore Shaman
2 Lazav The Multifarious
2 Charnel troll
2 Plaguecrafter
3 Thief of Sanity
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Hostage Taker
2 Doom Whisperer
2 Dream Eater
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Spells
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Thought Erasure
3 Vraska's Contempt
Lands
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
I'm sorry, and I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I've never liked Muldrotha. For a 6 CMC, it does nothing on ETB except maybe fetch you a land, and has no self protection. Namely any 6 CMC you can think of can do something better (Vraska, Relic Seeker, Carnage Tyrant). Question about your list tho, how are you feeding your Lazavs and Muldrothas without a dedicated early game mill engine?
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
4x Vraska, Relic Seeker
Instants (17):
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Vraska's Contempt
3x Assassin's Trophy
2x Vona's Hunger
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Cast Down
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (11):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Secrets of the Golden City
2x Notion Rain
1x Gaea's Blessing
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Evolving Wilds
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Negate
1x Unmoored Ego
2x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Assassin's Trophy
4x Dimir Spybug
4x Murmuring Mystic
1x Mnemonic Betrayal
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
Hmmm, some of your cards are rotating out tho, so may want to replace those slots. Also, no love for Dream Eater?
You could use the 4 mana slot for your spot removal. I guess if you're really desperate, Nullhide Ferox is an option.
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
Removal
2 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
2 Doomfall
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search For Azcanta
3 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
1 Memorial to Folly
1 Memorial to Genius
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
2 Unwind
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
IF for some reason I get Teferi, Hero of Dominaria on prerelease or booster box, I could give Esper a shot.
As is, my only sorcery is Doomfall. Would you guys consider switching those out for Commit // Memory to maximize on the Gearhulk and instant plan?
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
It's dead to me. Cycling doesn't sell the card like it does with Hieroglyphic Illumination.
Yeah, looks like a lot of people are sold on this card, according to the speculative pricing
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
Yeah, and I have that problem pretty much every rotation, trying to go into 2 different directions. Maybe it's as easy as going all out on the Torrential Gearhulk and instants, maybe keeping only the Ravenous Chupacabras and The Scarab Gods for creatures?
That decklist looks interesting, but I'm missing a couple cards from there to attempt it atm. I've laso had more playtime with the reactive version, so that's probably what I'll be streamlining for my events.
I'm actually thinking of cutting 1 Memorial to Folly or Memorial to Genius, I don't think my tapland count is optimal atm. Might put the 2nd Field of Ruin back in, just scared of situations where I can't cast the 2c efficiently.
Depends on how much you want the cycling I guess? To me, Syncopate is just better in nearly every situation, and it's what I'll be rolling with.
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
It ties with Fatal Push on all x/2 creatures, but gives you advantage vs most x/1s (and therefore, their corresponding decks) in the format:
Bomat Courier
Earthshaker Khenra
Direfleet Daredevil
Toolcraft Exemplar
Combat Celebrant (rose in popularity, apparently?)
Warkite Marauder
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
Llanowar Elves (soon)
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
2 Champion of Wits
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
Removal
3 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
2 Doomfall
3 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search For Azcanta
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Memorial to Genius
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
2 Unwind
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
How's that look? May cut 1 Champion of Wits for another Hieroglyphic Illumination if the cycling proves to be vital.
Also thinking of cutting 1 Torrential Gearhulk for a third Ravenous Chupacabra.
I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
I can agree with that, but you're neglecting the mana cost. A single black allows you to play more fluidly, and if you're worried about G1, a decent amount of Vraska's Contempt should get you through it.
If you're in trouble, like, real trouble, you'll need to tap out for this. That leaves you with no counter for the next turn and potential to blow out your saga and lose you the game. Personally, I'm steering clear of board wipes until I see a decent enough BG tokens deck running around. And have we really forgotten we have Yahenni's Expertise for those situations anyways? I feel the card fits better in a creature based midrange deck. Hell, it's great with Walking Ballista for BGx Counters.
There's really no reason tho! No need to force use Blast when you have access to Settle the Wreckage or Fumigate.
I think it'll just be a matter of personal preference or how the meta shapes up. I will stay on two colors until I see a big resurgence of go-wide decks. In the current meta, board wipes are rarely necessary G1.
My only problem with that card is that it still leaves alone some true staple cards in the format, Scrapheap Scrounger and Walking Ballista. Granted you can still take care of them with other cards, but I'd like my 5 mana wipe to actually wipe. Also, unless post SB, the first ability is pretty much dead in most cases.
It's a great time to be control with these 2 prints. I don't think we've had such counter variety since Ojutai Control, so I'll definitely include a number of both in my lists.
I think I'm good with Hieroglyphic Illumination, but I can see some people buying in.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how much of a spot vanilla 2-cost bounce spells have in the current meta... Besides, Commit can deal with Carnage Tyrant, which this one cannot.
Would rather just Vraska's Contempt it, personally.
Could see uses for it, but the mana cost is steeeeeep. You'd sell me if it had flash, but that would probably bust it.
Overall, I think the Tezzeret variant gets more out of blue than we do, but those counters are more than enough.
Definitely down for this one. Much more versatility and Fatal Push takes care of stuff like Kari Zev, Skyship Raider. Only worried about the life gain loss vs aggressive matchups, but we just move Moment of Craving to the SB then.
Unfortunately, I'm a sucker for Read the Bones style cards. I'll probably split 2 and 2.
I really like this card. I'd prefer having it in the yard every time tho, since it's kind of a win-more card and casting it for 6 on curve doesn't seem viable to me. I'm already struggling with including Tetzimoc, Primal Death as another bomb, so we'll see if this guy makes the cut.
Honestly think it's meant for mono black: at least in my shell, with my heavier lean on reanimation, I'll pass on this card.
Why not for aggro too? it gives you crappy blockers that they can't really interact with efficiently, buys you time and lands a threat. Doesn't count as legendary either, right? so in theory, you could just sideboard a bunch in and chain them and hit him with flyers. Vehicles risks losing their important ships and Hazoret has problems interacting with flyers if you play it right.
No thoughts on The Eldest Reborn? I'll admit it's reaaaaally slow, but if you can crack the third mode and have your GY set up nicely, you could get a massive swing. Torrential Gearhulk or Liliana, Death's Majesty + Torrential Gearhulk//Ravenous Chupacabra. 1 PW and a creature down, for no mana. Spend your mana on a second Gearhulk or keep it open.
Agreed, probably won't be touching that.
Ehhh, I think I'll pass on it too. The mana cost is really nice for the curve, but the borderline useless -2 makes me think twice.
Like all of them except for the colorless one. What would we sub out for them tho, Evolving Wilds?
EDIT: I'll probably be starting with something similar to this:
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Tetzimoc, Primal Death
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
Removal
4 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
3 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search For Azcanta
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Dark Bargain
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Memorial to Genius
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
2 Unwind
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
Only thing that worries me is no real main deck response to Tyrant and really bad G1s in the mirror. But honestly, I don't expect to see it that much, so I'll try death dino first; if it blows, I'll just cut 1 death dino and 1 Dark Bargain for the 2 good ol' Doomfall.
Thanks! I still feel bad about it tho, since I just can't help myself and stop being patient and reactive when I see my opponent draw no lands for 3 turns.
I think the problem with Lost Legacy is not that there's no targets, it's that there's too many and you can't really tap out expecting to grab something really, really good. We're not in Aetherworks Marvel // Saheeli Rai territory anymore, where a well planted Legacy could pretty much dismantle the deck. I think we need to minimize sorcery speed cards in general, and just let Doomfall deal with Carnage Tyrant, Approach of the Second Sun, etc.
I'm pretty happy with the ratios there. The selling point for me was the printing of Ravenous Chupacabra, which to me justifies having Liliana in the deck at all. She turns all of your creatures into flashback gods, and can pretty much land a threat and get rid of one on the same turn with the right combination of cards. What's even better, her reanimates don't exile when they die leading to fancy loops with The Scarab God and awesome synergy in the form of zombie production. I'd say it's still a matter of choice, tho.
I'm thinking of trying for 2 Tetzimoc, Primal Death (in the sideboard most likely), for grindy stuff like BG Snake and take out Bontu's Last Reckoning. That card lost me my two final games (half the card, half my idiocy I guess) and it's too much of a gamble for me to get attached to it. I get that you're supposed to stall and land it on land drop 5+, but I'd still like more reactive options.
Final note on Hostage Taker: I don't really enjoy removal that can bite you in the ass, I like my creatures doing stuff on ETB and then not worrying about them dying later. Even if you save 7 mana to rock Hostage and counter, she's still open next turn and you're tapped out, which loses you a creature and leaves them right where they started.
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
Removal
4 Fatal Push
2 Essence Extraction
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Doomfall
2 Search For Azcanta
3 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
1 Lost Legacy
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
Managed to go 6-2 for the night, blowing the finals to really poor decision making on my part and inexperience with relatively new cards
Not sure I can list the matchups in order, but I'll try. As you can see by the results, the deck did pretty well VS a nice assortment of decks.
Match 1: Mono Red Aggro 2-1
Drew pretty good both games, but he was able to race me on G2. G1 was a complete overkill, Fataling all his little aggro creatures and countering Hazoret and the final Khari Zev he needed, stabilized with Vraska's on his Khenras. G3 he drew too many uncolored lands to be a threat and closed the game with Scarab.
Match 2: Naya Dinos 2-0
Pretty straightforward. Let the small dudes hit me and saved the counters for the real deal. The variety in the removal suite also allowed for some really nice curve decisions, granted that won't always happen. G2 he kept a questionable hand with 3 tribal lands and lost game himself.
Match 3: BW Vampires 2-0
G1 was a pretty cool win, went down to 2 life and slowly climbed back up. Had real issues with his token spells early, and by the time I could close the game out I had 4 cards left in my library. G2, after I streamlined my removal he couldn't get enough aggro up to be a danger: overcommited with his lords and I blew them all up with Bontu's, then stabilized with lifegain.
Match 4: BR Vehicles 1-2
Tough MU, as described above. Interacting with his artifacts on my main deck package was pretty hard, so I lost G1 fast. G2 I got the sideboard I needed and came back, but G3 he landed Hook of Condemnation and I lost too much fuel.
off to Top 8!
Match 5: Cycling 2-0
Hadn't fought against the deck, but it went more or less as expected. G1 he killed himself during his combo, G2 I surprised him with some bold moves, such as tapping out for my Scarab God assuming he boarded Negates in. He tried to hurry up and resolved an Approach, but he ran out of draw and I prevented his combo from coming online, so he couldn't cast the second one. Killed him 2 turns after he played Approach.
Match 6: Mardu Vehicles 2-0
Pretty much same issues and caveats as the other Vehicles match, but his deck was a little less consistent.
Match 7: Sultai Energy 1-2
No one to blame this on but me. I was ahead 1 game, and underestimated his ability to put pressure back on with just 2 small creatures. I also wasn't familiar with Hadana's Climb. I casted some pretty crappy Bontu's, and it lost me both games.
Closing Thoughts:
I think the deck's shortcomings can be attributed to my lack of practice with the deck and inexperience with the Rivals cards of enemy decks. The games I lost felt fair, and could've been won if I played my lines a little differently and more conservatively.
Essence Extraction feels a little awkward, and I think the main is too heavy on creature hate as is. Most of the other cards do the same job anyways, so I think I'll put in one more Disallow and Illumination for them.
I'm feeling a little underwhelmed with Legacy and Bontu's. I'd like to try out Yahenni's, but I want to know about other people's experiences with it in the current format. Also, just wondering: has anyone tried Tetzimoc, Primal Death in something other than Commander with positive results?
I'd appreciate any feedback or comments on my list, and the overall direction of the archetype. Thanks in advance!