Also, Liliana of the Veil is cute, but it doesn't forward the board state. Tokens is clunky and we need more ways of making it faster. People have run it before in straight BW, but again, we don't have anything really consistent.
Token decks are not clunky. They just are nonbo. They are fair. Liliana of the Veil along with Bitterblossom ALONE have won me games. Granted I top decked a discard here or there, but Lili shuts decks down. Sure she doesn't enable our deck WELL, but she doesn't kill our deck. We can throw Lingering in the yard for a card that can at least be used later. And mana base even with a play set of Spectral Procession can be cured with an addition of 3 Fetid Heath. Your argument and statement of Lili in our deck is mute. She's won me games and tournaments in my BW shell. /triggered
@Xenphire
What I'm seeing here is a condescending analysis based on a lack of testing. The arguments I've proposed is that jamming tokens with more turn 3 token generation is not going to make the deck significantly faster. Instead, the combo decks it needs to race needs to be beat by hand interactions. Having Liliana on the field is by definition an advancement on the board state. There are few decks that can just outright ignore Liliana on the field. Combined with efficient removals to remove early threats and bitterblossom for blockers, it is easily one of the best cards to advance our gameplan. Jiachen Tao ran Liliana for this exact reason and while I do not approve of 4 Liliana, I believe 2 copies is easily better than the 2 extra Spectral Procession in the meta. I've tested the card for about 40 games so far and there is absolutely no doubt about her effectiveness in tokens.
I'm new to this thread, so HI! Normally I play BW Tokens... I love it, but I wanted to build a RW Land Control deck..? But I wanted burn in it as well. I don't know if that's possible so I'm coming to you for help. So far the list is:
Not a whole lot going on there. Usually I'd like Chandra, the Firebrand to duplicate the land destruction but Torch brings decent card draw. Was thinking of putting a play set of Molten Rain either 2-3 MB and 1-2 SB.
Has anyone tested out a SB with 3x Blood Moon? Is it viable...? Saw an article by Cho and it had a lone Sacred Foundry main board and 3 Moons in SB. Just wondering.
Also I've been testing Collective Brutality and I kinda like it against most of my match ups. My friends play Elves and Infect so I get value out of it. Also I'd like to revisit a discussion of Liliana, the Last Hope I know you don't play a walker just for it's ULT but how many match ups can we benefit from abusing the +1? I'm seeing possible Bogles, Infect, Affinity. Not sure what else. Shrinks Goyf early. And we always (almost) have a board state to protect her climb.
I like Veil over LH, but I traded my Veils. Any way. Let me know what your opinions are on the Moon Boarding.
Now that that's out of the way, you guys are being too picky. Seriously. She is basically a 4 ability Walker with an ULT.
She comes out and she is able to +1 to protect herself if she has a board state; OR She comes out and she can 0 to CREATE a board state and then flip herself.
She has a positive (+1) recurring miniature Overrun. This ability is bananas to enable Trample at so little effort with a tacked on Anthem for turn.
I don't know if I can cuss on this thread but if I could, I definitely would for having Wizards give her a LIGHTNING BOLT for -1. Seriously? Absolutely retarded. Then it transforms her so she can A: +1 and buff/protect or B: 0 and create/protect.
The ULT ability is most likely never going to see a lot of play. Because if it does it'll be the nail in the coffin. I don't really have to say anything about it.
She's not meant to be a +1 to ULT walker all the way with an occasional -1 or -2 ability to secure. Think of her as a Swiss Army Knife. She can mold to the situation a lot better than other Walkers. The problem with Domri Rade was he couldn't protect himself and he gassed out early. Sarkhan Vol relies HEAVILY on a board state. Xenagos, the Reveler either ramped with his +1 (Which still relied on a board state to do anything) or he pooped a creature with haste for 0. -.-...
I for one, love how Wizards designed her. She's meant to stick to the board if your opponent doesn't have an immediate answer, yet she doesn't WARP the game.
I'm severely anxious to see some legitimate Werewolves or enablers to help the tribal out.
Also if you run Flagstones of Trokair you can GQ the Flags and get a Shock as well as a Plains or Swamp. Pretty nifty.
Which would you rather have... Runed Halo or Pithing Needle? I play against decent amounts of Tron and Eldrazi over here. And when Ugin hits the field it's scoop time.
Okay so... Unless we are needing Murderous Cut to set up for Surgical Extraction, I am madly in love with Declaration in Stone. Yeah it's Sorcery... But it's Exile... For all creatures with the same name. LOVE it for 2 mana.
On another note... I got my arse handed to me by Tron today. Can I see some SB's favoring Tron and Eldrazi? I had 3 Stony Silence SB and 2 Surgical Extraction hoping to either GQ a Tron Land, or Karn and Extract it... But I never drew in to either of the cards in 2 post board matches.
I did do a match where he let me start it in hand just to see... And I shut his deck down long enough to win. I did have Liliana of the Veil and Ulted her to separate the 2 different Tron lands he did have and it sealed the game. I'm a supporter of the Lili decks.
1. If you have Crow in your name you are almost legally obligated to put your picture as Storm Crow instead of Godzilla.
2. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet relies on
a. Your opponents HAVING non-token creatures.
b. Taking up a 4-drop spot.
c. A wee bit of focusing around him.
3. There is no way for him to poop tokens for us. His effectiveness relies on your opponent's deck style. If you're facing a burn it'll be really hard to get him beefy enough unless you put some Zombie Token Generators in. Which there are no good ones yet.
Flagstones is mostly just a test. Having Double Flagstones and a fetch in your opening hand feels good. Otherwise its just a land that loses us the game harder against bloodmoon.
2x Fetid Heath is advisable, but i dont have more, or any Marsh Flats
Auriok Champion - Cut down from 3 to 2 because less twin, i keep it in mostly for burn and general aggro matchups, but may end up dropping it for more timely reinforcements or ZPersecution main board.
Elspeth, Night Errant - Works well with Autiok champ and Reinforcements with the Jump ability. Might actually be better than a 3rd Sorin.
Dismember, Slaughter Pact and Go for the Throat might just become 3 more Doomblades because Twin is gone, dismember is bad against the big mana decks and painful against aggro. Go for the Throat might be too risky mainboard with affinity and Tron. Slaughter Pact might just be Irrelevant since it doesnt stop any real combo decks ( we have good matchups against Kiki Chord with 9 killspells ).
Sideboard:
First 4 is obvious.
Ghostly Prison is for Merfolk which isnt a great matchup. Helps against all aggro decks, but need to figure out the sideboard plan for what to take out. Might not actually have enough cards to remove.
Mark of Asylum - all the damage sweepers.
Bitterblossom - Any midrange or control matchup ( Jeskai and Grixis Control might have an upswing ( but we have a decent matchup against both already )
ZP - Aggro Matchups and Affinity ( might be pointless since we have too much cards that are already good against affinity and Delver is an autowin matchup for us anyway. Seems way way better in the Raise the Alarm Build where you are actively trying to end the game by turn 5 rather than control and get advantage over time.
3 Flex Spot - Should probably just be graveyard hate like 2x Relic + 1x Rest in Peace because we just loose to storm and living end. If the ZP's are dropped we have 5 flex spots which should probably just be 2-3 Hero of Bladehold, or additional discard spells to help us against Ad Naus and Tron.
Need to run a few mock sideboard examples to see if my sideboard is just too specific. Right now the Affinity/Tron/Zoo/Infect/Burn/Merfolk fear is real, even though we actually have decent matchups against all but Tron and Merfolk.
I feel as if you're running too many "fetch" lands and not enough targets. You're essentially running 12 fetch and 8 targets. I wouldn't focus THAT much on spot removal. 4-6 is usually consistent. I don't know how "aggro" your meta is, but you could get away with the mandatory playset of Path to Exile, a Murderous Cut and a second removal of your choice. I'd put in another 2 discards in place of them. That's just me.
I have another question for the ones that go to tournies on a regular basis. Are you all starting to see a need for more of Thoughtseize or more of Inquisition of Kozilek? I'm running 4 Thoughtseize and 3 IoK....
Token decks are not clunky. They just are nonbo. They are fair. Liliana of the Veil along with Bitterblossom ALONE have won me games. Granted I top decked a discard here or there, but Lili shuts decks down. Sure she doesn't enable our deck WELL, but she doesn't kill our deck. We can throw Lingering in the yard for a card that can at least be used later. And mana base even with a play set of Spectral Procession can be cured with an addition of 3 Fetid Heath. Your argument and statement of Lili in our deck is mute. She's won me games and tournaments in my BW shell. /triggered
Agreed.
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Sacred Foundry
2x Ajani Vengeant
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Assemble the Legion
4x Boom // Bust
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Lightning Helix
Not a whole lot going on there. Usually I'd like Chandra, the Firebrand to duplicate the land destruction but Torch brings decent card draw. Was thinking of putting a play set of Molten Rain either 2-3 MB and 1-2 SB.
Also I've been testing Collective Brutality and I kinda like it against most of my match ups. My friends play Elves and Infect so I get value out of it. Also I'd like to revisit a discussion of Liliana, the Last Hope I know you don't play a walker just for it's ULT but how many match ups can we benefit from abusing the +1? I'm seeing possible Bogles, Infect, Affinity. Not sure what else. Shrinks Goyf early. And we always (almost) have a board state to protect her climb.
I like Veil over LH, but I traded my Veils. Any way. Let me know what your opinions are on the Moon Boarding.
Also do you all think they are done with flip Werewolves?
Now that that's out of the way, you guys are being too picky. Seriously. She is basically a 4 ability Walker with an ULT.
She's not meant to be a +1 to ULT walker all the way with an occasional -1 or -2 ability to secure. Think of her as a Swiss Army Knife. She can mold to the situation a lot better than other Walkers. The problem with Domri Rade was he couldn't protect himself and he gassed out early. Sarkhan Vol relies HEAVILY on a board state. Xenagos, the Reveler either ramped with his +1 (Which still relied on a board state to do anything) or he pooped a creature with haste for 0. -.-...
I for one, love how Wizards designed her. She's meant to stick to the board if your opponent doesn't have an immediate answer, yet she doesn't WARP the game.
I'm severely anxious to see some legitimate Werewolves or enablers to help the tribal out.
Which would you rather have... Runed Halo or Pithing Needle? I play against decent amounts of Tron and Eldrazi over here. And when Ugin hits the field it's scoop time.
On another note... I got my arse handed to me by Tron today. Can I see some SB's favoring Tron and Eldrazi? I had 3 Stony Silence SB and 2 Surgical Extraction hoping to either GQ a Tron Land, or Karn and Extract it... But I never drew in to either of the cards in 2 post board matches.
I did do a match where he let me start it in hand just to see... And I shut his deck down long enough to win. I did have Liliana of the Veil and Ulted her to separate the 2 different Tron lands he did have and it sealed the game. I'm a supporter of the Lili decks.
2. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet relies on
3x Fetid Heath
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Windbrisk Heights
2x Windswept Heath
3x Midnight Haunting
1x Murderous Cut
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Disenchant
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Rest in Peace
2x Smallpox
3x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Worship
Okay. This is my newish setup. I think the added Fetid Heath will be a real mana saver. THINKING about trading Windbrisk for Vault of the Archangel.
What do you all think?
I feel as if you're running too many "fetch" lands and not enough targets. You're essentially running 12 fetch and 8 targets. I wouldn't focus THAT much on spot removal. 4-6 is usually consistent. I don't know how "aggro" your meta is, but you could get away with the mandatory playset of Path to Exile, a Murderous Cut and a second removal of your choice. I'd put in another 2 discards in place of them. That's just me.